/lit/ - Literature

It doesn't exist

weird theres some dude behind my building weeping in spanish but idk spanish lol oh well

>>12610956
poignant and topical; thank you anon

If there's a problem of evil, then there's a problem of good.

>>12610926
God has no reason to prevent the existence of evil, only that it should be known for what it is, and that good should be known for what it is. To think that the creator of the universe should establish everything just so humans would always have a dopamine rush is extremely arrogant and ignorant.

>>12611281
good post

>>12610951
Do you have an argument against determinism?

>>12611281
I'm not sure what you mean? I do see a problem of good for the theist, but I doubt it's what you're referring to.

The problem of good is that god cannot possibly claim to have anything to do with it. If we have free will then anything good someone has done is on their own volition, not because of god's glory. Free will is used to worm out of the problem of evil, as god is not accountable for our bad actions if we are the ones responsible. But then how could god have any glory if we are the ones making anything that is good happen not because of god's will, but because of our own.

Even if we grant free will as a fact it still falls flat because free will obviously isn't very good if it is the direct cause of evil actions!

>>12610926
evil is based and redpilled

>>12611460
t. de maistre

>>12611291

That's fine (no it isn't, what a horrible thing to believe), but taking such a position forces you abandon the omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent trifecta (no it doesn't) yes, it does. At which point there's no point about any of it, and the only genuinely moral choice is to reject god, even and especially if it is impossible to do so because of some hell or later unpleasantness. Every religious apologist always gets this wrong, and every religious apologist always hasn't actually thought with any real depth on these things (yes they have) no, they haven't. It is better to be based and redpilled in hell than to be not based and bluepilled in hell. It is more important to be right than to belong. I am better and smarter than you.

>>12610926
who defines evil?

>>12610926
I consider myself a Christian, or someone trying and failing (badly) to find faith in Christianity.

My problem is basically, the good and the bad are metered out to humans arbitrarily. Some humans who are evil, only reap good things, and some humans who are better than those evil humans suffer heinous evil. From my reading of Job, in God's eyes, a human questioning why bad things happen is a human stepping beyond their territory, 'Where was man at the dawn of creation, when God formed the universe, and how could a human understand the ways of God?' So why expect anything good from God? Why pray? Why listen to people at church saying that God provides for his people, or that good things are ahead? Terrible things could be ahead. Christians get brutally murdered, children abused, etc. And what differences are there between Christians and non-Christians? One is not more moral than the other. As I see it, true faith can only exist if one expects nothing from God, because true faith would not falter in the face of any adversity. So what is His responsibility to me, if anything? How is God's love expressed in a man's life? I don't even necessarily think that evil in the world means that God has failed, or that its better for me to live without ever experiencing hardship, I just want to know how that true faith should exist, and also I get a little frustrated with the protestant church's message of "become a Christian and good things will happen, or at least you won't suffer through the pain as much!" I know these are basic questions probably but I can't seem to answer them to my spirit's satisfaction. I'm being sincere in 4chan so I know I'm opening myself up to ridicule, but I just want someone to talk to about this stuff, my family gets really uncomfortable when I ask questions like these.

>>12610926
If good is a tire, then evil is asphalt. The friction between the two is what allows the vehicle to move forward. Why would an all-powerful God allow a lesser force to oppose it? It’s because beauty, and life itself is the union of opposites. Only by union can the male and female create life. It’s all about balance.

>>12610926
>problem of evil
It's post-19th century, this shit is over with.

>>12610956

>>12611612

Correct. I am sure that what you mean is that the notion of god as it is popularly understood, is indefensible. I am confident that you didn't have some other nonsense in mind.

>>12611718
All traditional notions of objectivity became invalid in the 19th century.

>>12611526
These are all great questions that will lead you to better and better answers. I am too tired right now to answer you with anything meaningful. If this thread is still up I will answer your questions in the morning! If not, I will paste your questions along with my answer in the next problem of evil thread.


here’s the reasons I don’t believe in god:
1. Naturalism/materialism
- Casper the Ghost
2. Determinism
3. The problem of evil
- the silent god, god should convince us all of his reality.
- innocent suffering
- free will
4. The idea of Heaven/Hell? Is justice going to come for all of us? Is God retributive?
- is there free will to do bad things in heaven? if there is free will, but we just decide not to do bad things in heaven because it makes sense to us, then why wouldn’t earth be the same exact thing? Why even bother with earth?
- Can I leave Heaven? Sounds like I wouldn’t leave Heaven if Heaven were perfect. How could I have a choice to leave heaven?

Here are some questions I've had myself while going through theology classes. Maybe they will shake or strengthen your faith.

If I accept the idea of a Christian god then it seems to me as if god must need something from humans. If he didn’t need anything from humans then he would not punish us for not believing in him. Yet, in order to not go to hell we must accept Jesus. Why would an all powerful, all love giving god need us to even believe in him? I could see an argument that God needs us to believe in him in order for us to live the best lives possible and in caring for us god needs us to love him otherwise he would allowing his creations to suffer. But why god make it so hard or impossible for so many people to love him before they die?

>>12611888 (cont.)
We would have to say that some amount of good is evil if we are to say that god is good for allowing evil into the world, but how would we ever determine what kind of good is bad? How can good be bad? Wouldn’t it just be bad at that point?

We are all atheists of the Greek gods, the Pagan gods, every god that is different and seperate from the god(s) that you personally believe in. What evidence is there to believe that we should stick to our god when everyone else also thinks they are right? What if you were born in India or the Middle East? Would you be as right as you are right now?

Religions that come out of very old books are more irrational than those than do not. To believe that the Bible itself is the true word of god is irrational because if it was then it would be a much better, more persuasive book. The Bible is clearly not the most well written book in the world and it is full of contradictions. If it were written by an all powerful god this never would’ve happened. If you do believe that the Bible was written by fallible people and that because of that we should pick and choose what parts to follow then I would ask how we know which parts are correct or incorrect?

An all powerful, all loving god would never allow for the death of innocent people. If we believe that humans emotions here on Earth are valuable and meaningful then why would a god ever allow for us to suffer so gravely as he did during the Holocaust? What good, redeeming thing was found during that miserable, awful time of WWII? If we cannot say that the things transpired during every murder, every rape are not evil because god is trying to show us something more then how can we ever judge what is good or bad? How can we ever value our own or other's emotions? It seems so illogical and irrational that I cannot even begin to believe that an all loving, all powerful god would ever allow for such things to exist. Perhaps we could say that god is all loving but not all powerful, but then why would I even bother worshiping him? Would I worship an alien that came to Earth and was much more powerful than ourselves?

Why would a perfect god give such bad evidence?

ok hear me out
everyone is evil and capable of evil to an extinct until an evil was committed upon them

you just have to trust the plan because everyone's a pseud compared to God.

>>12610926
Neither evil nor God exist.

>>12611442
>Do you have an argument against determinism?
Not him, but it's trivial to reject determinism because of the problem of induction. You can't justify the uniformity of nature without appealing to a finite sequence of observations extending into the past. This isn't a trivial problem for the thesis of determinism.
This doesn't even touch on the fact that there are observed stochastic processes in nature which shouldn't be the case if necessitarianism or any robust determinism is true.

I don't think you actually need to accept determinism for the problem of evil to remain a problem though, since the problem of evil holds merely by virtue of definition of God. Determinism doesn't need to be true for it to be a problem for any traditional monotheistic conception of God.

>>12611908
>I don't think you actually need to accept determinism for the problem of evil to remain a problem though, since the problem of evil holds merely by virtue of definition of God. Determinism doesn't need to be true for it to be a problem for any traditional monotheistic conception of God.
I agree.

However, determinism isn't only about appealing to a finite sequence of observations extending into the past. Another way to see it is every cause has an effect. Even if this isn't true then things would be randomly happening, which wouldn't give us any more of a free will.

>>12611888
>Naturalism/materialism
Doesn’t prove or disprove anything
>Determinism
Ultimately unable to be proved or disproved. And of course, even within Christianity you have some who believe in predestination.
>the silent god, god should convince us all of his reality.
Why should God do that? Think through this for more than half a second, actually imagine this: God gives everyone absolute certainty of his existence, and no one has any reason to doubt. Why would this be better?
>innocent suffering
Suffering exists for multiple reason. First, let me say that God has no reason to prevent suffering (why should he?). Now suffering makes sense in reality. Just as an atheist would believe the universe would naturally produce suffering based on the laws of reality, so too do I believe that God has made an existence that is thorough and rational. Also, the existence of evil helps define what is good, and actually creates forms of good that could not exist otherwise (bravery, sacrifice, compassion, etc.) To take suffering away would destroy these forms of good. They would never exist. Is God not powerful enough to create them? Is God not powerful enough to create a world where humans live meaningful lives? Is God so limited, and so human-like, that his only concern when creating the universe was to create humans who always had infinite pleasure and never knew suffering? You think God shouldn’t allow evil, but tell me, why should he allow good? Why should he do anything? He is God, after all, and doesn’t answer to you. There are many who worship him, and many who don’t, so it’s not as if he has made a mistake. Everything exists to display the truths of existence. God did not evolve from monkeys.
>heaven
What’s better: to always have been in Heaven or to know evil and suffering in this world then die and go to heaven? So, not only does a forced heaven for eternity not make much sense for humans, it also doesn’t really benefit God (how could it?) Why would people be so automatically loving of God? These people would be completely ignorant, worshipping God because God has created them to not do anything else. Why is it, that all the alternatives never seem perfect, either? Tell me, why can’t all humans agree on one ideal universe? So, then, this is just one of infinite universes that will be criticized. There is no escape. In the end, we should not criticize God, but choose the path that benefits us the most (as with all things). Either you want faith or you don’t (why wouldn’t you?). If you do, don’t despair! You can have belief! Pray, read the Bible, avoid sin, do good works, go to church, and PRAY! If you ask, it will be given to you. Reason is good, yes, but YOUR reason may not necessarily be reasonable (we all know we can be wrong at times). Doubt yourself most of all, that is reasonable. So you see that faith is the only thing that keeps us grounded in this world. Why not, then, have faith in God?

>>12611897
>We are all atheists of the Greek gods...
Tell me, what religions have prophecies like Christianity does? Surely you don’t believe Jesus’ existence was a coincidence, but you must believe it was all faked and exaggerated. Who is Jesus then? Do you deny his existence, outright? Was he killed on the cross for simply claiming to be the messiah, without actually performing miracles and other things? The story itself is perfect, and is beautifully based on the Old Testament. What religion is better? Compare them all, one by one, and tell me if you feel that any of them is just as likely or more likely than Christianity. Any religions/philosophies started by men with no divine intervention or arbitrary, founded by REASON, which has its flaws, and can easily be dismissed by reason. Who was Gautama? How did he become enlightened? Why should we trust him? How does he know what Nirvana is, or samsara? It’s all a grasping at straws. Not to mention, Buddhists know how to avoid suffering, but they don’t know how to achieve joy. These things are what separate Christianity from Buddhism. Wait, did you say Greek gods?! As if you would hesitate to choose between them and the Christian God?! Why mention them at all? Why BELIEVE in them at all? What good would that do to you? Please tell me, which religion, specifically, is holding you back? Because I know it isn’t the Greek Gods. You just find comfort in the existence of thousands of religions, as if that excuses your disbelief.
>To believe that the Bible itself is the true word of god is irrational because if it was then it would be a much better, more persuasive book
And yet some people think it’s very persuasive. Are they wrong, or are you wrong?
>The Bible is clearly not the most well written book in the world and it is full of contradictions
Give ONE example, please. Please!

>An all powerful, all loving god would never allow for the death of innocent people
If you define all-loving as “never allowing suffering,” then yes, you’re right. But the Bible never uses this definition, anyway. Again, why should God desire that there be no suffering? Is it possible that it exists for reasons that you don’t perfectly understand?

>Why would a perfect god give such bad evidence?
There is plenty of evidence for those who seek God. Humility will help you more than proofs ever will.

>>12611526
Why are you so concerned with mortal suffering? Our heaven is not in this life, but comes after death. Job endured suffering, but what, then? He grew even wealthier than before. If you keep faith in God, nothing can stop you.

>>12611612

Evil isn't a problem, it's the solution.

>>12611600
>but..muh infinite dopamine utopia!

>>12610926
I feel like Epicurus was an edgy pseud.

>>12613024
Oh interesting, why do you feel that way?

The scriptures tell us repeatedly that this world is rulled by Satan. Evil is a confirmation of the christian worldview.

>>12611442
>do you have an argument against determinism
>yfw

People commit evil because they are evil. Evil things happen to people because they are evil.

>>12613197

is that so?

>>12613230
Yes. Every human on this planet is corrupt and evil.

>>12613239
What's the name of the third poorest person in Shanghai, and why is he evil?

>>12613244
I don't need to know his name, and he is evil at a minimum for having an evil thought at any point in his life.

>>12613192
nice argument!

>>12613197
so, if we are born evil isn't it god's fault?

>>12613247
So not only do you know all the people that exist, you also know every thought they've ever had?
Neat!

The idea that there are people who are morally good indicates a lack of awareness of one's own wickedness.

>>12613290
God knows their thoughts, not I.
>Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
>Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
>Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
>>12613288
Men commit evil in accordance with their will and are thus at fault for their own deeds.

>>12613306
Imagine unironically quoting the Bible as evidence against an atheist position.
You know how arguments work, right my dude?

>>12613322
I was never having a neutral argument with you, but stating the truth as I know it. If you reject it that is your own concern.

>>12610926
I feel like whites are the source of all evil on Earth.

>>12613338
We’re just the purest evil.

Anything good or bad that happens to you is good because of divine providence, everything leads to good. Evil doesn't really exist. Read The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius.

I dont see what the problem is.

>>12613338
Only individuals can be seen as "evil". The real problems are geographic and systemic.

>>12613364
This.
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

>>12613337
Calling people you've never heard of evil isn't a "fact" or "truth" in any coherent sense of the word.
You just look like a loon when you follow it up with scripture like that counts as evidence.
Do you think you'll get extra brownies in heaven for making sure I go to hell if I don't believe the things that you do? That's the entire justification for proselytizing right? Making sure everyone has heard the gospel, so it's their own fault when they burn in hell for being different than you, right?
Definitely sounds like some guy I'd listen to about what's good and evil.

>>12613438
I agree with you desu.
t. catholic

>>12613438
Also agree
t. black asexual man

>>12613438
I don’t understand...would you rather him NOT proselytize? I swear, atheists take anything and try to make it sound bad.

>>12613438
Agreed.
t. homosexual deaf deist

>>12613507
It's fine for anyone to proselytize. Just don't expect us to actually be convinced by a hilariously weak rhetoric.

>>12612841
Your answers feel like satire sometimes but they're so long that it would be rude not to reply.

Although my list of reasons don't have arguments with them I just wanted to show you where I am coming from. We will go more in-depth on these ideas as our correspondence continues, so be patient with me.

Naturalism/materialism
>Doesn’t prove or disprove anything
If everything is material then an immaterial god can't exist. Nor can immaterial souls.

Determinism
>Ultimately unable to be proved or disproved. And of course, even within Christianity you have some who believe in predestination.
If there is no free will then the problem of evil cannot possibly be explained while claiming that god cares about suffering people. Examples of this are being raped to death, the Holocaust, slavery, etc. If we grant any single thing in this world as bad and admit an omnipotent god, then it is a fact that god knowingly created those bad experiences, thus making god at least a little bit bad. If your argument is to say what god said to Job, then I ask that you admit some ability to evaluate the human experience, lest you live in an unintelligble world. There are some things about being human that are necessary for having any type of good experience and we must value those things no matter what. There is no choice to be made about eating, breathing, sleeping, loving! It seems under your view we can no longer say that a child starving to death is a bad thing. Can you not say for a fact that (assuming you have healthy legs) if I cut off your leg that would be objectively worse than not cutting off your leg?

innocent suffering
>First, let me say that God has no reason to prevent suffering (why should he?).
Because unless the lives that we live are totally unintelligible and we are mistaken about how bad it is for children to starve, catch on fire, be chopped up into little pieces, then god should value these things just like we do. He would see these things as bad and would do something about it, because just like how they make us cry they would make god weep while he cleaned up the mess he has made, for he would have full knowledge of how BAD they feel. And yet, as I've typed this out over the last 10 minutes a couple hundred children have died from preventable causes.
You seem to have missed the original argument. Some suffering is good, some suffering is unnecessary. I want to talk about unnecessary suffering. If your claim is that that good cannot exist without unnecessary suffering, then I disagree. Do we torture our babies so they can appreciate keys being jangled in front of their faces? Do we think of how nice it is to not be crying about our raped, dead mothers while we play with our friends? No, of course not! We are busy being in the moment.

>>12613518
Everyone is a sinner, do you disagree? This is the foundation of Christianity. If you disagree with it, you’ll disagree about everything else.

>>12613552
Jesus wasn't a sinner (which is also 100% proof that he wasn't white).

>>12613438
>Calling people you've never heard of evil isn't a "fact" or "truth" in any coherent sense of the word.
It is a fact and it is true, whether you like it or not.
>You just look like a loon when you follow it up with scripture like that counts as evidence.
Then I'll look like a loon.
>Do you think you'll get extra brownies in heaven for making sure I go to hell if I don't believe the things that you do?
Anyone who goes to Hell goes there because of their own sinfulness; I can't "make sure" of it, nor would I if I could.
>That's the entire justification for proselytizing right?
No, the point is to call Christ's sheep to himself. Those who are his sheep will hear his voice and come.
>Making sure everyone has heard the gospel, so it's their own fault when they burn in hell for being different than you, right?
As stated earlier, people go to Hell because of their sins. It's already your fault whether you hear the Gospel or not.
>Definitely sounds like some guy I'd listen to about what's good and evil.
1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

>>12612841
>You think God shouldn’t allow evil, but tell me, why should he allow good?
Because if god is all loving then he would prefer conscious beings to have good experiences full of love instead of evil/bad ones. He would want us to all flourish.
>Why should he do anything?
As I said above, if god has any ability to understand what it is to be a human then he would understand that some versions of this life are really, truly bad. He wouldn't want these bad things to happen, just as anyone or anything that understands those lives wouldn't want them to happen. There is no escaping feeling when we are trapped on this earth.
>He is God, after all, and doesn’t answer to you.
If he doesn't answer to any of us, even as a collective, then he can fuck right off. There are awful things happening in the world that he created, and if you or god don't value them I'm worried I am talking to and about a psychopath! It is outrageous that you asked why god should allow good. As if you we should be asking "why would anyone want good?"
>There are many who worship him, and many who don’t, so it’s not as if he has made a mistake.
Some mistakes would be all those people who don't and never will. All those people who will never even hear about the Christian god and subsequently go to hell for their innocent ignorance.
>Everything exists to display the truths of existence
Except for all the things that have convinced me of the untruth of existence.

heaven
>What’s better: to always have been in Heaven or to know evil and suffering in this world then die and go to heaven?
You are limiting your imagination on what an all powerful, all loving god is able to do. This god could change us. If we are in heaven then god can show us or make us anything. In heaven why would god make us experience only pleasure if that isn't the best way for us to be? Why would god make us seek out infinite universes if that isn't the best way for us to be? He could make us experience LITERALLY ANYTHING. If the best way this god can make things involves rape and war and Alzheimers and polio and AIDs and IDS and genocide then I want nothing to do with him. We could be in heaven experiencing only the best, only what is truly good and yet we are stuck here on earth, knowing the worst the world has to offer.

>>12613364
But if I cut off your leg and raped your mom in front of you, wouldn't it be bad for at least that moment? Even if you did make it to Heaven?

If everything bad is actually good, then you live in a world that doesn't matter, that can't be understood. You're a nihilist.

>>12610951
Weak minded leftist spotted.
I don't mean to interrupt your mental gymnastics, but those of us on Earth abide by certain moral precepts that allow our society to flourish. Without good and evil, society would collapse. Evil does indeed exist. You may have become based by degrees, but you must realize that you are not only evil, but retarded.

>>12613690
Christ is the only exception.
>Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
>>12613518
No one can be "convinced" to believe through argument.

>>12613766
Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

>>12613737
>Except for all the things that have convinced me of the untruth of existence.
This doesn’t even make sense. What is an untruth? Evil and its effects in the world are necessary truths of existence. Why do you think God should ignore them in favor of simply creating paradise for eternity? WHY should God do this? What does a creator have to gain from pleasing humans so much? You can’t answer this by saying “But God is loving.” That doesn’t explain why God would forego his motivations of creation just for humans. He’s loving enough to allow us to know what is sin and how we can be saved. This whole world isn’t made specifically for humans. This world isn’t made specifically for humans. This world isn’t made specifically for humans.
>It is outrageous that you asked why god should allow good.
No it isn’t. It’s a genuine question. Why should God, the creator of the universe, allow good? Why does such a powerful being care about mere humans? Is he even God at all? The Problem of Good is worse than the Problem of Evil. They’re both solved when they co-exist.
>then he can fuck right off.
>about a psychopath
I feel sorry for you. Even if what I’m saying is reasonable, I’m afraid your hatred and arrogance prevent you from seeing the light. As long as you’re in this state, you will never find God, no matter how many proofs are piled up in front of you. God comes to those who humbly seek Him.

>>12612909

>We are all atheists of the Greek gods...
No religion is holding me back from believing in Christ. I've already outlined why I don't believe in your god and it has nothing to do with other religions. The issues lie entirely within your own god. My point here was to show how incredibly arrogant monotheists are to think that they are right. Had you been born on the other side of the world you'd be an ignorant sinner and sent to hell.

To believe that the Bible itself is the true word of god is irrational because if it was then it would be a much better, more persuasive book
>And yet some people think it’s very persuasive. Are they wrong, or are you wrong?
I addressed this earlier. What you say here isn't an argument, it is an appeal to the people. The fact that I am not convinced of your god's existence is enough to show that this god isn't all powerful. I imagine that is frustrating to read, but keep in mind I am a determinist.

The Bible is clearly not the most well written book in the world and it is full of contradictions
>Give ONE example, please. Please!
Okay, how about the fact that Jesus posits the golden rule and yet he also tell us how we ought to treat our slaves. If having a slave loving your neighbor as you love yourself?

>Is it possible that it exists for reasons that you don’t perfectly understand?
Yes, it is possible. But I can rule out any type of love behind raping someone to death.

Why would a perfect god give such bad evidence?
>There is plenty of evidence for those who seek God.
Ok, if the evidence is so good then why haven't I been convinced yet? I have 5 years at a Jesuit University, lived with Christians for all of them, and yet I haven't an inkling of faith in Jesus.

>>12613788
wrong. arguing does work, otherwise we wouldn't argue.

>>12613812
Again, you are a nihilist.

>evil exists
>this means God has not prevented evil from existing
>this means God is down with evil existing
>therefore, evil is not a problem

>>12613887
It works in the sense that God can use whatever means he chooses to grant faith to someone. But you cannot "argue someone into believing." An unregenerate man is not capable of having faith.

>>12613899
I can't tell if this is satire or not. If it isn't then what should a person do in the world?

>>12613899
The universe produced evil through rational laws, and atheists are fine with it. Survival of the fittest, etc. But say it’s a result of God, and they go crazy.

>>12613924
It is, I feel that these are leaps in logic that a person might take after reading this thread

>>12613901
i wasn't speaking about arguing for faith, but in a general sense. people do change their beliefs after reading a good argument that challenge their existing beliefs. it's not surprising that this concept is foreign to a christian.

>>12613889
You are wrong. The fact that God can work good out of evil does not erase the distinction between good and evil or mean that the ultimate end is not good.
>Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
>19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
>20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
>21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
>6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
>2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
>3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
>4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
>5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
>6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

>>12613886
>Okay, how about the fact that Jesus posits the golden rule and yet he also tell us how we ought to treat our slaves.
The Bible is full of contradictions, and you choose this as your proof? What is wrong with having a servant? And what is wrong with being enslaved? This was a common part of ancient economies. Some people might have had a worse life if they weren’t enslaved. A good master and a good slave can both be good Christians.

>>12613941
Yes, people change their opinions through argument; but faith in Christ is an exception, because an unregenerate man is literally incapable of having faith. It is not possible, no matter how good of an argument you give, unless God regenerates him.
>i wasn't speaking about arguing for faith
The context of this conversation was about proselytization, so that is what I am talking about. If you just want to say people can change their minds in a general sense then we don't disagree, but I don't see what the point of saying that is.

>>12613964
This is a false dichotomy. Are you really going to claim that there was no possible way for a slave to have a better life? It was either slavery or a worse life?

>>12613986
Christianity is not about having a "better life" in a material sense.

>>12613977
>fails to convince someone into becoming a christian
>oh well, MUH GOD
typical

>>12613994
A slave in the first centuries who follows Christ is more blessed than the average Christian in the 21st century.

>>12614001
When did I ever attempt to convince you of Christianity? Go look up "total depravity" if you want to know what I'm talking about.

>>12614017
Matthew 23:11
>But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

>>12613864
You've ignored about half of what I argued, please answer. If you're fucking with me know that you're succeeding and it's exhausting.

An untruth is a lie or false statement. If EVERYTHING exists to display the truth of existence then I would've been convinced from the first time I opened my eyes.

>What does a creator have to gain from pleasing humans so much?
I feel like what you're asking here displays my problem with your god. If god doesn't care about humans having good lives then why should we have any interest in god? When I said he could fuck off I meant that he can fuck off for not caring about human emotion. Any powerful entity who has the easy opportunity to make the conscious experience of others better, but decides not to is selfish and clearly unempathetic. I am reminded of the Ring of Gyges here, except for it is infinitely worse. Only a psychopath could have such little empathy for people he has so much opportunity to help.

All I'm asking is that you answer this: is the world the best that it could be?

>>12614025
>>12614017
>>12613994
>>12613964
So, then why not make yourselves slaves or servants and give up all worldly possessions? Why not serve the lord and become priests and all that?

>>12614127
>If god doesn't care about humans having good lives then why should we have any interest in god?
If God didn’t care at all, we wouldn’t have the Bible.
>is the world the best that it could be?
Yes. For you to disagree, you would have to posit a world that’s better, and explain why. No matter what alternative world you design, it will be inferior to this world.

>>12611442
>Do you have an argument against determinism?
We invented the concept of the subject, and consequently also of the doer.

>>12614127
>If EVERYTHING exists to display the truth of existence then I would've been convinced from the first time I opened my eyes.
I didn’t say the truth would be exposed to you. Your ignorance of truth is one of the many necessary truth-features of existence.

>>12614135
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

>>12614135
Because I want to support my family.

>>12614176
Why not make your family slaves?

>>12610926

It is actually what i am writing my dissertation on at the moment :D

Frankly I think it is fascinating

>>12614200
Slaves to whom? It’s outlawed in the U.S.

>>12614200
Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

>>12614139
>Yes. For you to disagree, you would have to posit a world that’s better, and explain why. No matter what alternative world you design, it will be inferior to this world.
This seems strange, backward and unchristian to me. Care to explain why no matter what I come up with it will be inferior to this world? Why wouldn't a world where everyone agrees on and practices Christianity perfectly be a better world? Why wouldn't a world without rape be a better world?

More specifically I want you to answer this bit about Heaven and the ideal world:

heaven
>What’s better: to always have been in Heaven or to know evil and suffering in this world then die and go to heaven?
You are limiting your imagination on what an all powerful, all loving god is able to do. This god could change us. If we are in heaven then god can show us or make us anything. In heaven why would god make us experience only pleasure if that isn't the best way for us to be? Why would god make us seek out infinite universes if that isn't the best way for us to be? He could make us experience LITERALLY ANYTHING. If the best way this god can make things involves rape and war and Alzheimers and polio and AIDs and IDS and genocide then I want nothing to do with him. We could be in heaven experiencing only the best, only what is truly good and yet we are stuck here on earth, knowing the worst the world has to offer.

>>12614208
Can you shed some light on this thread because it's depressing me to see that people are willing to worship a god that doesn't care about emotions?

>>12614237
christians are the original clowns. they are willing to say anything to justify their belief in god because it's tautological to them.

>>12614227
>Why wouldn't a world where everyone agrees on and practices Christianity perfectly be a better world? Why wouldn't a world without rape be a better world?
Why would they be?
>In heaven why would god make us experience only pleasure if that isn't the best way for us to be?
I already explained this. We do have joy in heaven, but that joy is so great because of the contrast between heaven and earth, and heaven and hell. We UNDERSTAND why heaven is so great because we know what evil and suffering are. A world without these things would make heaven meaningless. It would only exist for the purpose of making us feel good. There’s no truth or beauty in that. God didn’t make the world for pleasure or suffering, but for Truth, which includes all things.

>>12610956
¿pero por qué este mundo es tan vacio y cruel?

>>12614237
It’s not necessarily the case that God doesn’t “care about emotions,” but, being the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, He has other motivations. Humans aren’t everything. We only exist because we glorify God. If you are the creator of a SIMS universe, or a book, or a video game, or a movie, will you not include suffering? That’s not to say that God thinks exactly like us, being “bored” or whatever, but surely you can at least understand that even you would not desire a “perfect” utopian creation, because that would be no benefit to you. Struggle, conflict, meaning, hope, happiness and suffering, etc... all necessary things contributing to the beautiful totality of existence.

>>12610926
>>12613784
"Evil" is the privation of the Good. It does not exist in itself.

>>12614266
All worldviews are ultimately circular and self-referential. There's no escaping it.

>>12614309
Then define what good is. I’ll offer my definition: the good is that which tends to existence, and evil is that which tends to non-existence. Obviously the absence of good is, then, evil.

>>12614208
you might find this book to be very enjoyable and helpful to your dissertation, it's well-written and comparisions to western thinkers abound throughout it

>>12614315
Good is the form of Goodness. It is that which allows us to be grasp perfection within our ideas. It is the perfect in the perfect circle we can see within our Minds.

>the good is that which tends to existence, and evil is that which tends to non-existence. Obviously the absence of good is, then, evil.
In this case, the absence of good would be nothing, since evil is that which tends to not exist. Also, I don't think non-existence is evil.

>>12614338
>Good is the form of Goodness. It is that which allows us to be grasp perfection within our ideas. It is the perfect in the perfect circle we can see within our Minds.

>>12614274
>Why would they be?
because in that world without rape, war, murder, starvation, ideologies there would be fewer people suffering! Obviously, I would need to be more specific than this, but you can imagine a world where everything is the same except for one less person gets raped, is a better world than the one where there is the rape.

You don't need to have the bad to appreciate the good. This is why we don't start torturing our babies. Some things are good on their own. I've never eaten dog shit before but I sure as hell can enjoy my food just as much as you do.

>God didn’t make the world for pleasure or suffering, but for Truth, which includes all things.
Why would your god make the truth of the world so blatantly bad for so many people? I'm all for truth, but some "truths" of experience, or sets of qualia, are better than others because we are restricted to this human body and mind. There are some truths that are better or worse to delve into. You could figure out the truth of what it feels like to shove poison ivy up your butt, that would be a truth you could experience, but that would be worse than not experiencing it.

>>12614585
>there would be fewer people suffering!
Why does less suffering = better world?
>This is why we don't start torturing our babies.
Bad analogy. Babies often suffer and are punished.
>I’ve never eaten dog shit before
Bad analogy. Some foods/medicines/etc. taste much worse than your favorite foods.
>Why would your god make the truth of the world so blatantly bad for so many people?
Why would God make it good for so many people? Why does it matter? It’s a rational world. Suffering will occur.

Read >>12614298

>>12614274
Here's a world that is worse than our own: one where there is literally no life on earth because every creature simultaneously contracts rabies and perishes from this earth in misery.

>>12614606
So you're asking me why suffering matters? It's because we are animals and we can't escape our senses. This is a fact, there is no escaping it. There is no reason why. It's like asking why we need oxygen to breathe. That's just the way it is.

>>12610926
What is evil?

>>12614818
hahahaha, thank you anon. It's good to start with definitions. I think it's too late for that in this thread.

>>12612975
Kill yourself, christcuck.
*tips theist anti-Abrahamic fedora*

>>12614831
Insulting a Christian only makes them more powerful. See Luke's fourth Beautitude.

>>12614801
To elaborate, there is no objective reason why suffering matters. Everything is contingent. If you value a good human existence you must do certain things. It seems as if you don't value good human existence, so I need to show you why you actually do or why you should.

>>12614818
Baby don’t hurt me

Everything that God does is good. Everything the God dislike is Evil. Therefore, only things that go against God's will are Evil.
Only humans and Angles have can choose to go against God's will. Therefore, only humans and Angles (Daemons) can be Evil.

Problem solved.
Having your family die in a plane crash isn't evil. Masturbating is.

>>12611526
>As I see it, true faith can only exist if one expects nothing from God, because true faith would not falter in the face of any adversity.
You honestly get Job a lot better than most. I could not agree more with the quote. Your downfall seems to be that you are trying to force yourself to have faith that God makes all this fine in the end. It is okay if you don't see it. Personally, I have faith, but there is no way I could explain Job any clearer than you did. You seem to accept what you say. The problem is you cannot take the leap from the rationale. Don't worry so much about it and go on with your life.

>>12611897
I think you completely missed the points brought up by the post you are responding to. This comes off as a teenager first learning about atheism

>>12613737
You don't want a God, you want a magician that uses tricks to make everything all better.

>>12615575
As I said in the post you seemingly didn't read, I wasn't responding to anything that guy wrote. I was asking my own questions that might bring be relevant to his thinking.

>>12615624
No, I want a good god.

>>12615553
>Everything that God does is good
Is it good because God does it, or does God do it because its good?

>>12615650
From reading your posts in this thread, you assigned dogmatic thinking to what is good and bad. You can't define them so you give examples that you think fit, believing that they are irrefutable displays of evil without considering any impact they may have.

Let's try a thought experiment: Would you kill Hitler?

>>12615713
Depends on what stage of Hitler's life we are talking about. It is all contingent upon understanding the circumstances around the situation. My thinking is not dogmatic, it is dependent upon specifics. As I said before, everything is contingent.

>>12615713
Don't you think that negative things happen and they happen without causing any good in the world?

Women have been kidnapped, raped for years and then murdered at the end of it all - with no reprieve. The perpetrator is never found and goes happily to his grave. Can you claim this to be anything other than evil?

>>12615562
Thank you, but that also turns into a paradox for me because how am I having true faith by having no faith?

>>12615713
I don't believe in good or bad. I believe in better and worse.

>>12615713
Also, determinism vs. free will was never properly addressed.

>>12611442
>Do you have an argument against determinism?
Causality is an illusion, the flow of time is an illusion, everything always exists simultaneously.

>>12615788
Why do you wish to have true faith?

>>12615862
So the choices you make are ones that you have always made. It is only in the instant the choice is made that you have understanding as to why it was made.

>>12615862
I am a monist, so I agree. Determinism is compatible with monism.

>>12615864
For selfish reasons of course, my life is unfulfilling and I believe I have something missing that only true faith can give me, and I have the (possibly mistaken) belief that while I won’t be physically protected from mortal harm, I will at least have peace in my soul to deal with life’s constant pains, and because I believe God is real and don’t want to go to hell.

>>12615873
Life's a choose your own adventure flipbook constrained by physics and society.

>>12615894
Read Pascal. If it can convert me from atheism then it can probably strengthen your faith.

>>12615894
Do this >>12615924

Also, dont worry so much about the after life, even if you have faith doesnt mean you automatically get saved. You seem reasonable and if you do good works you'll be in the same position as if you had faith.

Personally, even though I believe in God, I do not care about an afterlife.

>>12615924
I really hope Pascal's wager wasn't part of what converted you.

>>12611281
ACTIVATED
L
M
O
N
D
S

>>12615935
As are most people, you probably know little about the wager and its context. The fact that you mention the wager first even shows that you don’t know much about Penseés. I don’t mean that in a rude way, it’s just that many people, atheists and Christians, discuss the wager without even knowing what Penseés is. The wager has a context. It takes up about 1.5% of the whole book, and though it’s an important part, it’s not the decisive factor. You see, the first section of the book is philosophical, discussing how man is ignorant and miserable. We think reason can give us the answers but we’re always confused. We are happy at times, but we don’t know peace. He builds the grounds for why we are miserable without God.
In the later sections, he discusses why Christianity is the perfect religion (surprised?), going into detail about the Bible, why it’s such a great faith, even comparing it to other religions. The wager is betwee these two main sections of the book. You need God, so you should have faith in Him, and you should be Christian. Though you may not have faith at first, it can be improved by praying, avoiding sin, reading the Bible, doing good works, etc. The wager is just the beginning, the moment you accept your desire to seek after God. It was never meant to be independent, or some sort of “proof,” or something you accept and go through life as usual.

>>12615935
Look at a map, bro. God set that shit up a million years ago just so America could have its burgers.

>>12616006
thank you for the laugh anon

>>12615995
Okay, but what if I like, don't need a god?

>>12611281
So you don't think an atheist can believe evil exists in this world?

>>12616040
What if you’d be better off with God?

>>12616047
I don’t think you understand. Humans think the whole world revolves around them.

>>12616047
The atheists are the relativist sjw leftists. So, no, they do not believe in the evil nor the good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBdQhLXTvNM

>>12616069
Your claim is untrue. I am a human and I know that the world does not revolve around me, which is why I am so interested in figuring out what is more right or more wrong.

>>12616071
I agree that relativists are problematic, but that isn't the topic I am writing on.

>>12610956
This makes me sad. Why is he weeping?

>>12616236
cause god doesn't understand spanish

>>12610926
Here's what I feel, Dostoevsky didn't do shit to address it in The Brothers Karamazov and every time I bring this up I get religious zoomers telling me I didn't read the book. Just going "well you've got to love your neighbor! XD" isn't a solution to it.

>>12610951
/thread

>>12611526
Christianity isn't about suffering less, its about accepting suffering. You become a Christian to suffer with purpose, rather than to suffer for no reason at all.

But this is coming from me, a non religious person.

>>12610951
can you explain why

>>12615685
It's good because goodness derives from God.

>>12610951
Ding. Problem is literally tautological. "Why aren't things perfect huu huu" is not any sort of argument, it's an a-priori supposition.

>>12610926
evil's no problem

God's deterministic in function. While all powerful, and containing the full sum of knowledge, it will do only what it does and it can be described much akin to a river that cannot be resisted, dammed, or altered. It flows along the course of an ineffable principle.

>>12611291
cope

I guess the christfag argument in these threads is essentially that the human experience is almost completely unintelligible by our own devices and all we are left to do is cower like an assaulted newborn except that we, as fully grown adults full of faith in god, should accept the possibility that the person beating our fragile skulls might in fact be acting in the name of 'our own good' and that this incomprehensible and agony actually has ....meaning. LOL

>>12615995

By all means, why stop there? Type twice as many words to say nothing next time.

The Problem of Evil is very dishonest. It starts by abasing your Reason and lamenting that "transcendental" answers do not impose themselves onto you. It continues with ignoring the causality of Evil, and the idea that knowledge thereof might alleviate it, insisting on its prima facie and the axiom of its distinction from an otherwise good or at least neutral world and experience thereof. It concludes with more boring lamentation about Evil being inextricable from its witness, thus abasing your Faith as well, and making the whole idea of inquiry into the "transcendent" doubly absurd.

>Renounce all unknowing, that ye may be worthy of the mysteries of the Light and be saved from the servitors of Yaldabaōth and the fire-seas.
>The Greatest Ill Among Men is Ignorance of God

>>12610926
Evil is no problem for God

>>12620631

Wanted to elaborate by replying to some posts but this thread is awful. I myself am beginning to struggle to reconcile a benevolent God with Augustine.

>>12612909
Stop posting this shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dir1SZs7e3Q

>>12620774
What is a perfect world in God’s eyes, in your opinion?

>>12611291
>muh dopamine

Now who's talking like an atheist?

>>12620801
I don’t get your meaning

>>12620800

I don't think a word as such is even Ontologically reasonable. That everything is conscious one way or another, all emanating from and ever pervaded by God - THE Self, that everything conscious per se rightfully thinks simply being God is good enough, not to mention everything abasing itself to play the part of the "Object"; it makes the idea of the world or a world as an actual "Newtonian" machine implausible and/or untenable. More specifically, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence do not mean constant demonstration, explanation, and mending, but constant serenity. Since nothing can triumph against him, God is "positively", not "negatively", perfect. That is to say allowing any and all things in potentiality and actuality to happen, even the fancy of the world, or a world, or worlds. The perfection is more in the principle.

>>12620899
its easy to trivialize the idea of equanimity with a word like "dopamine". I could just as easily say "oh, I bet you can't wait to get to heaven and experience the eternal dopamine rush." Basically, you're a dishonest piece of shit.

>>12620993
It’s not a dopamine rush in heaven though. It’s a genuine love of God, boosted by our experience on Earth, and the relief from sin. You’re being rude and I don’t like it

>>12621012
>Its another Christian loses his theory of mind to his deeply ingrained ideology episode

>>12613737
Truly this way of thought is the worst the world has to offer. By trusting and having faith in God, you are able to persist in the face of all difficulties and tribulations. But this mindset of rejecting God, one that has haunted me for seven long years, is one that no weapon can fight against. Please accept that God is beyond your understanding anon. And despite this, despite whatever suffering may befall you in your life, he cares for you and loves you as one of his children and sent his one begotten son to die on the cross, that you may have peace. I don't know if you've talked to people of faith going through hard times, but if you have, you would have seen the beauty of God's love shining through their eyes and their unconditional trust for the Lord and whatever he may have in store for him. I'm sorry that I'm too tired to stay in this thread but I will talk to you tomorrow if you're still here. Stay strong and keep the faith anon. God is a being we cannot hope to understand, but we can take comfort in his eternal love for us, if only we dare open our heart to him.

>>12621144
>God is a being we cannot hope to understand, but we can take comfort in his eternal love for us

It's common knowledge that Augustine is not a Philosopher, or a thinker in any capacity, but this violates Logic so proudly that it's practically Satanic.

https://discord.gg/n6sMc8X

>>12621144
>By trusting and having faith in God, you are able to persist in the face of all difficulties and tribulations.

Yes, particularly in the face of the embarrassment of being defeated in any argument.

>>12621829
>I’m an ATHEIST. Debate me