/lit/ - Literature

He's a bit of a prick.

>>12605701
human cant comprehend. he showed moses his shadow and that is enough.

>>12605701
He left the pope in charge while he ran a few errands.
He forgot to make him immortal though

>>12605701
He did rather a lot in the bible, even Jesus does miracles and stuff

>>12605701
I'm sort of agnostic or IDK what it's called when you're an atheist but desperately searching for some kind of faith so you can get back into church for your own wellbeing but can't really believe in it and everyone there is old and you remember that nobody from your generation goes to church because somehow technology and science and all the other stuff that's happened makes the whole thing seem like bullshit.
Completely repulsed by the catholic tradition, it seems like so much propaganda, I mean displaying gold everywhere? and I was raised mormon so that kind of soured the milk for me. If I could find some sort of somber, quiet, stoic, reflective midwestern spirited apolitical church where I think about jesus and god and the bible and their place in my life, socialize with peers and connect as a community, reconnect with my personal core, not feel manipulated by some charismatic preacher, no electric guitars, that would rock.
Anyway. I think some christians might say that proof of god would invalidate faith in god. Others might say something like god does show himself all the time and we're too hubristic or ungodly to see or feel it. I'm sure there's some pseudologic from some catholic philosopher in year 1400 bumfuck idk.
Should I just start going to church and the rest will catch up? How do you earnestly pray to a god you're fairly sure doesn't exist? I can't change my mind and I'm not hubristic enough to think god would send me a message or signal like some delusional. I don't know if I trust the vague feelings in my gut when I bother to pay attention to them.
Advice plz.

>>12605701
>If nature is real, why doesn't he reveal himself to prove it?
I'm sorry, what? Try to make sense next time you post, OP.

>>12605728
Find a christian youth group and read some natural theology. You should read "five proofs for the existence of god", I'm an atheist but it's a really good well written book.

>>12605734
Nature doesn't claim to be an entity controlling everything.

>>12605734
Nature is real.
I can hear it out my window right now.

Smarmy twit

>>12605741
I've read it actually. and christian youth groups piss me off.
I really need some kind of christian meditation center or faithful academic tradition, I'm way too cerebral to let go.
Also, all this effort I'm putting into believing doesn't help the cause. I'll always remember how I had to force this.

>>12605701
You're gonna get the typical answers about the necessity of "faith" (which never answer why faith is expected in the first place), and how "if people knew He existed, then there's no merit for believers", which falls to the above problem of why there even needs to be merit for any group at all. But my answer, as a speculating-theist (eh, I'm a pantheist monist, but I also wonder of a theistic deity), which I consider the most tenable, is that the world is presently under some kind of test, wherein God's explicit absence is being used to gauge the moral quality of the beings here. Christ mentions the Father as "seeing in secret", and it's plausible to believe that people are being "tested" to see how people behave without any explicit God revealed to them. And the beings naturally separate themselves by this fact: some descend into degeneracy, believing there's no ultimate accountability for it; others retain their moral codes regardless, recognizing virtue a law to be followed in all circumstances. Christ also speaks of how, "at the close of the age", when everything goes down, the Son of Man will appear, and will sort out the righteous from the wicked. I'm not a Christian, but the above answers would satisfy both a Christian worldview and a general Theistic one. That humanity is presently under a test, being used to gauge character. An omniscient must know all of this already though, of course, so I guess it's just that, if we have free will, we get to show our true colors nonetheless, regardless of them already being known.

If this isn't correct, I have absolutely no clue. It's a fascinating question, but I've never heard great answers for it.

>>12605742
Nature doesn't control everything. Nature is everything, i.e. it's infinite and one.

Close your eyes.
Whatever you see and hear is god.
God is our collective consciousness, an unseen force that flows throughout the minds of all humans. Now, with your eyes closed, ask god something. What will he say? Can you yell into the void louder than the voices of all your fellow peers?

>>12605748
Then I can't help you anon, but I hope that you find your faith.

>>12605758
I would like to find it as well. Thanks breh.

>>12605728
It seems that yr most of the way there

The answer to this is literally in the bible

>>12605763
references?

>>12605701
So you can make this thread.

>>12605701
Tell me anon, why can something be beautiful? Beauty is not objective, but it is definitively real isn't it? You experience beauty through experiencing things exhibiting beauty. What is beauty then? There is no checklist for beauty, even if there are patterns as to what we perceive as beautiful. Beauty is a fundamentally immaterial phenomenon. All beauty you experience is God revealing himself to you.

>>12605701
Because He already did.
Not that he had to. He did that so we would have mediator between God and Man so to save us. As for proof of his design, the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

>>12605754
So praying is a spiritual screaming contest for Gods attention? Got it, now most of the time if I ask something I get no answer. Maybe the answer is just supposed to be "nothing" and God is the dankest nihilist out there, or I am just not loud enough.

>>12606023
how loud you are is how desperate you are, not sounding louder.

>>12605701
He is either evil, stupid or nonexistent

>God make us suffer if we don’t believe a baseless evidence lacking claim
>he could make the suffering stop and show us that he does infact exists and make us act in any way he wants
>instead makes us go to hell

Worse story ever written I have no idea how people take it seriously

>>12605714
And he came into the flesh and that WASN'T enough.

>>12605701
>who is Jesus

>>12605746
>he thinks it's real because he perceives it

He shows up in a lot of books (and threads like this). What more evidence is required?

>>12605720
>>12605959
>>12606071
Let's assume he did reveal himself as Jesus and as the burning bush to Moses etc. To a current, neutral observers, how are these relevations more credible than that of other, false religions?

The Koran claims Allah revealed himself to Mohamed. Hindu scriptures claim Vishnu, Ganesha etc. revealed themselves to people multiple times. There are a bunch of stories about Buddhist monks performing miracles.

All religions claim to have proofs and they seem about as credible as Christianity's. They are all ancient, unverifiable accounts written down on scrolls. But they can't be all true. Why should I believe Christianity specifically when there proofs don't look any better than the proofs of "false" religions?

>>12605933
Again, how do I know if it's the Christian God and not Allah, Zeus, Ahura Mazda etc.?

>>12606171
>The Koran claims Allah revealed himself to Mohamed.

You have not read it

>>12606171
>Hindu scriptures claim Vishnu, Ganesha etc. revealed themselves to people multiple times. There are a bunch of stories about Buddhist monks performing miracles.
What does any of that have to do with the Creator? Heathen religions do supernatural stuff even in the Bible, the question is of the Creator God

>>12605701
Because if he did, no-one would believe it any more than they did previous. The Christian dogma would not become more or less legitimate.

>>12605701

There's no need or reason to.

>>12605701
>why doesn't he reveal himself to prove it?
He has in the past.

He has tho

>>12605701
because we don't matter all that much to him. We're just a tiny part of him.

>>12605728
>raised mormon
interesting, can you give some background? how was leaving the church?

>>12606194
Hindus would claim that their gods are the creator and Yahve is a heathen god. How do I know that they are wrong and you are right?

>>12606064
>I am ascribing morality to my rationality and have an underlying assumption that man is good!!!!

>>12606380
I find it hard to believe in God. But, if I had to find an explanation for God, if would be that there's only one entity, and throughout the progression of mankind, different people perceived him differently?

>>12606380
Compare and contrast to see which is greater

>>12605701
The divine must be intuited. We are born upside down necessarily; suffering is the facilitator of heroism, and limitation is life. Make something of your conditioning, if possible. Some starving African children are not able to and it does not impinge on my belief, for the divine is a principled force, but the human is necessarily not so, at least in his actuality, only potentially divine in the immaterial realm (think Buddha in his meditation; a man *outside* of time in his perfection.
It constructed the principles outside of its self in a natural hierarchy, and germinated the seed of its degeneration. Even in the heat death of the universe, (or in circumstances of much greater tragedy), the divine is present synthetically, its lack is a calculation. I can fully believe the 'pointless' writhing agony and death of millions of African children being torn about by vultures is completely necessary. Just think what adversity to our valuation of life the reality of this pure suffering, which is in its self pointless, symbolises to us, (who in general know nothing of it), and how it substantiates the prevailing humanist and materialist view of our society; not deprived of the divine, but militantly opposed to its admission et all. This is one function it serves, and I cannot qualify the import of it.

>>12606439
Good post

I used to be agnostic, with a strong suspicion that all religion is nothing more than a poorly crafted mechanism to control and fleece the rubes for the benefit of the king and priest.
Proof! I cried into the depths of an uncaring and capricious abyss. The only reply was that god created all, that's the only proof required if you have faith. Circular reasoning at it's worst, yet this is all any god pounder ever has to offer, other than the assurance that god has revealed him self to that guy over there; he said so, so believe, or god will cast you into eternal torment, if one of the psychotic minions of allah or kali or the Westborough Baptist Church doesn't emulsify your heathen ass with extreme intolerance first.
A Highly unsatisfactory response.
Now, I watch the Bridge between Man and God, a man who, even by Catholic Standards, is a lying, marxist scumbag. The muslims seem to put lie to god, as I cannot conceive of any god who would knowingly subject his creations to a monstrous revelation that leaves a billion people mired in a grotesque stone age salted with the yellowing bones of it's millions of victims and promises nothing but degradation and slavery. Nor can I believe that any god would suffer such a repulsive false prophet for the purpose of inflicting a genocidal trial of faith upon his subjects whilst permitting his 'true faith's to endlessly war and revile one another unto death and not lift a finger. The dearth of thunderbolts striking down his spectacularly malfunctioning creations perpetrating repulsive, unholy acts in his name suggests that big daddy was created in our image, and only a sucker could continue to express belief, love and devotion a thin lie that evil.
Theology that insists god is a non spatial-temporal entity that is beyond our comprehension, thus requiring blind faith is equally invalid. If this supreme entity is beyond our comprehension, all the god books, all the visions and religions and cults are nothing more than the inchoate rantings of men who are always reaching for my wallet, and know no more of god than Bugs Bunny. And at least Bugs is funny.
Perhaps the intention was noble. Give the peasants something nicer than the apparent reality of a cold, indifferent universe that, at absolute best, is an endless struggle not to be killed out right by a universe that routinely wipes entire galaxies right off the map because that's how it works.
If so, the point of awareness is to form your own moral code, one better than the biblical god, a god that by his own example is not an acceptable role model for my behaviour.
I'm still not an atheist, however, for the simple reason that the universe is stranger than I can imagine. If there is no god, my victory over the universe must be to be better than the animals that are the bulk of my species, living to a moral code of my own device.
If there is a god, I shall still refuse him, for his example is that of a thug and a douche.

MUH FREEWILL
GOD CAN'T INTERFERE WITH MUH FREEWILL

>>12606171
you haven't read the Quran, Allah never revealed himself to Muhammad
>Why should I believe Christianity specifically
reading The Bible will answer this question

>>12606175
insufferable atheist hasnt read the texts he criticizes
woop de doo

>>12606800
Tbh, most people haven't read the books they critize.

>>12606621
yikes

>>12606623
protip: you don't actually have a will, a will has you

>>12606804
true, i'm guilty of this myself, though i usually argue for/against points i at least am familiar with through other unbiased means if i didnt read about them from their source

>>12606621
cringe

>>12605701
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

he shows himself in every sight you see, every sound your hear and every surface you touch. God is everything

Because it wouldn't make a difference. In order to have saving faith, one needs grace, not a vision. Him showing up and flexing on everyone would resolve a philosophical dilemma, but it wouldn't save any more people than he would by not. It was eternally decreed before time who would and would not be saved. You're proposing a difference in means, not results.

>>12606171
>To a current, neutral observer

>>12606317
Idk if you're still in the thread but it wasnt all that traumatic. My whole family kind of left at about the same time. It's a patently bullshit religion that did a really bad job hiding their fuckups and lies.
I still recommend it to people who desperately want a trad sexy blonde chick way out of their league and willing to have twelve children tho. Just gotta pull the trigger early enough to go on a mission and then go to BYU.

>literature

>>12606068
Jesus isn't Jehovah.

>>12607664

>>12606924
>>12605754
these

>>12606175
Even without that one example his argument still applies, if anything the fact that miracles are reported to be witnessed by large amounts of people belonging to a wide variety of spiritual traditions separated by distance and time would more support the idea of perennialism rather than solely Christianity.

>>12606380
>Hindus would claim that their gods are the creator
No, they would not.

>Allah reveals himself to Mohommed in the Koran
>Hindus think their gods created the world

I am so sick of atheists.

>>12608026
>a wide variety of spiritual traditions separated by distance and time would more support the idea of perennialism rather than solely Christianity.
You have absolutely no grasp of Biblical old-school worldview. There are a ton of gods in th Old Testament, and ancient Christians believed they existed too. YHWH's claim was not that they didn't exist, but that He was altogether above and beyond them, that we are not to worship them, and that He could push trounce them if they gave Him lip.

>>12605701
If you were hiking in the desert with your dad and a snake bit your dad's dick and the only way to save his life was to suck the venom out, would you do it?

>>12608137

The venomous snakes long enough to strike to the height of an avg. man’s groin do not live in deserts anon.

That said, my dad is dead. However, while alive I would do it.

>>12608164
>dad dies
>dad goes to hell for having a homosexual act performed on him

>>12608187
It’s not a homosexual act, though.

>>12606064
>He is evil cause he does things I don't personaly like
Nice slave morality, fag

>>12607364
>I still recommend it to people who desperately want a trad sexy blonde chick way out of their league and willing to have twelve children tho.
What you just said, fella ? Fuck tecnology, where do i sign?
So.........
Did you get a hot blonde?

>>12606380
Take ten people (skilled in painting) , show them the same landscape for a while, then ask them to paint it. Compare the paintings. They will all resemble each other whilst being significantly different. I know this analogy is not watertight, since, by example, it is claimed that the Holy Quran is written by God through Muhammed (pbuh)

>>12606380
Jesus was prophesied in many ways

>>12608115
>ancient Christians believed they existed too. YHWH's claim was not that they didn't exist
Not him but this is a really interesting view which I've never heard before, can I have a link on that? Someone?

>>12608074
>No, they would not
Yes they would you brainlet. It varies per sect but generally Brahman is seen as the eternal first-cause supreme God responsible for the universe and Brahma (part of and one with Brahman) is seen as the God who performed the act of creation.

>>12608115
You misunderstood my post, the point was not that the Bible teaches perennialism but rather that if you take alleged miracles and alleged divine "incarnations" etc as proof of God than the fact that these are reported all around the world throughout history by non-Christian religions means that Christianity is not unique in this regard and suggests that God manifests himself to different cultures in various ways.

>>12608402
>You misunderstood my post, the point was not that the Bible teaches perennialism but rather that if you take alleged miracles and alleged divine "incarnations" etc as proof of God than the fact that these are reported all around the world throughout history by non-Christian religions means that Christianity is not unique in this regard and suggests that God manifests himself to different cultures in various ways
No, it would suggest that there are multiple gods as the OT says.

>>12608431
But if your criteria for deciding that the OT/NT God is the right one is the alleged miracles then that's actually not a very strong criteria

>>12608909
No, but the prophecies are. No other religion is prophesied like Christianity is. >>12608305

>>12605754
So from this God is not the creator, dependent wholly upon humans for his existence, and just a collection of biological urges acting in your subconscious. How marvelous.

>>12606386
>don't question it don't question it don't question it
who's the NPC here?