/lit/ - Literature

>>12587106
For Western Christianity, my favorite mysticism books would be the works of St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila, the Cloud of Unknowing, the works of Meister Eckhart. Maybe that's
Something I don't see recommended very often is "Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism" It is borderline heterodox, but it did get an afterword by Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar. It is very good though and very profound if you can get through the 700 pages of Kabbalistic and Hermetic analysis of Catholicism. Abbot Thomas Keating said it was one of the most profound spiritual books he ever read. So it is certainly worth a read if you are up to it.

Maybe someone can recommend something for me. I've been reading quite a bit about neoplatonism and Egyptian mystery religions and needless to say, my faith isn't as strong as it has been. I've gone down the Guenon track and have become a bit disillusioned with the Church, not that it is bad or wrong, but rather that it just seems incomplete. Maybe it is just youthful naivete and romanticism of other things, I do not know.

>>12587160
>Meditations on the Tarot
Came here to recommend this

>>12587160
>become a bit disillusioned with the Church
Care to expand on how exactly you feel it is incomplete?

>>12587160
I recently read Sayings of the Desert Fathers. Great source of wisdom from guys who were dead serious about their faith.

>>12587106
>Christian texts on Mysticism
how cute

>>12587195
I just don't feel like the metaphysics are as deep as they are in the east. I feel like every time I read a book about Catholic spirituality, the Saints are so obsessed over morality that they don't pay much attention to their changes in consciousness and being with respect to the world around them. All the moralism is very tiring to me. I understand virtue no doubt, and perhaps I dislike it because I am such a slob myself, but I genuinely feel a bit saddened whenever I read a spiritual book nowadays. It just seems rather shallow in comparison to the other things I have read. Didn't Buddha find the fasting to be pointless past a certain extent?

Now don't get me wrong, I am Catholic and I would agree with Guenon that a westerner can't just hop into the spiritual traditions of other cultures, but I sometimes feel that I am not connected with the primordial spiritual traditions. Just the other day when I was reading some Schuon, I got rather sentimental when I was reading about the Plains Indians and their love of the Great Spirit. I obviously don't want to LARP as an Indian, but just something about that ineffable connection to both nature and clan seems absent in Catholicism.

Part of it, I will admit, is that I am simply sick of the guilt I feel, and wish to adhere to a belief system that isn't so crushing psychologically. I have been an addict for 4 years and going to confession every week to simply relapse again has brought such a strain upon my soul. It is foolish to blame the Church for my actions, but nonetheless, I feel as if Catholicism has made me more sad than I was before I got semi-serious with my faith. No doubt it has made me a better and more principled person, but it has also changed my psychology.

>>12587304
>Part of it, I will admit, is that I am simply sick of the guilt I feel, and wish to adhere to a belief system that isn't so crushing psychologically.
It's very honest of you to admit this. I'm suffering from an addiction to porn/lust myself, among other bad habits, yet the one silver-lining has been that it has convinced me that Spiritual Warfare is real. Maybe you would do well to turn your attention to this topic for awhile or at least contemplate the nature of your strife?

>>12587304
you shouldn't escape those feelings, and trust me I know, that sickening post-relapse feeling took such a toll on me mentally and even physically the past 2 years, all I can tell you is feel it to the bone so whatever it is you use drugs to escape becomes preferable to waking up another morning knowing what you did the night before

that said the more you reify your abstinence in your head, the harder the relapse hits, and the more likely too, 'cause you're energizing it with your thoughts, even if those thoughts are just mentally patting yourself on the back for another clean day. it really demands giving something up without even letting yourself feel proud of it. until you know in your heart it's over and done with, that is

>>12587378
>spiritual warfare is real

exactly this, struggled with lust too, still sorta do, and nothing, nothing in this world convinced me that I have an inner war to fight than this, or rather, it was the process of committing to something and trying to trace where I (inevitably) fell short. and what I discovered is I'm barely sentient half the time, and undoing this has been the mental equivalent of trying to hold your hand to a fire. and that's when the idea of alchemical fire and "cooking" your material slowly over long periods of time finally clicked

The Way of a Pilgrim
The Ascetic Homies of Saint Isaac the Syrian
The Ladder of Divine Ascent
The Philokalia

>>12587304
Being crushed is the point, "A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit. A crushed and humbled heart God will not spurn." Read the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee.

But you need a wifey

>>12587304
One thing to consider is reading the writings of easterners on Christianity, I'm not saying you need to view your faith through eastern lenses or anything but you might find something like pic related interesting and it might contribute to your appreciation for your Christian faith, the Sufis regarded Jesus as a perfect spiritual master and some Hindus have written about him too. Even Guenon thought Jesus was equally spreading a "Traditional" revealed message but that it was just later corrupted. Also, I'd highly recommend the works of the Christian traditionalist Jean Borella.

Threadly reminder that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ, and Eastern Orthodox are schismatics.

>>12587378
Thank you for your reply, although I must admit I've read more than I care to admit on the topic and contemplated it until borderline madness. I am an obsessive person by nature I suppose. My psychology has become so warped and my faith is so based around my sexual purity, its as if I have begun to worship Virgo and the pantheon of purity instead of Christ. It is bizarre. I have had my confessor tell me to not be so hard on myself, but if I'm not so hard on myself, I end up relapsing, and then become too hard on myself, and thus, the cycle continues. Even as I type this I feel stupid, not only that I am writing to a stranger of my intimate spirituality, but so too I am bringing up another part of me that I have been consciously pushing away for the past week, hoping to forget the pain of sin.

>>12587420
I don't know man. I understand being crushed due to our fallen nature and then working back up to theosis, but I feel as if I have crushed myself. I shouldn't even be writing this. I was happy when I was in delusion the past week, telling myself that my sins were of no consequence. I genuinely do think that the end of Christianity is madness if taken to an extreme. I don't mean anything blasphemous by it, but I don't know how you cannot go a bit mad knowing that every action may send you to everlasting Hell, whose pain is absolutely incomparable to any of the greatest anguishes experienced on earth. When I was pure for a week or two, I begun to obsess over morality so much that I had no spiritual life. That is why, I suppose, I feel something of freedom in platonism, or some sort of eastern religion.

>>12587485
I actually have heard of him, just never read of his works. Would you suggest any book in particular?

>>12587555
How was Catholicism founded by Jesus Christ? The bible itself refutes this. Couple this with the fact that the current Pope is advocating progressivism, its clear God isn't anointing these people.

>>12587304
Christianity isn't supposed to make you feel comfortable. You have a cross to carry. Carry it.

>>12587160
Please do not read anything about hermeticism, kabbalism, or tarot. Its occult and satanic.

>>12587566
>How was Catholicism founded by Jesus Christ?

UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

>>12587557
>I don't know man. I understand being crushed due to our fallen nature and then working back up to theosis, but I feel as if I have crushed myself. I shouldn't even be writing this. I was happy when I was in delusion the past week, telling myself that my sins were of no consequence. I genuinely do think that the end of Christianity is madness if taken to an extreme. I don't mean anything blasphemous by it, but I don't know how you cannot go a bit mad knowing that every action may send you to everlasting Hell, whose pain is absolutely incomparable to any of the greatest anguishes experienced on earth. When I was pure for a week or two, I begun to obsess over morality so much that I had no spiritual life. That is why, I suppose, I feel something of freedom in platonism, or some sort of eastern religion.
Read the novel Laurus. Also if have learned never to be prideful or judge anyone, you are probably closer to God than most righteous Christiand

>>12587304
Remember that it was the Buddha who said it was better to stick your dick in a pile of burning coals than in a woman.

>>12587570
>Please do not read
>/lit/

>>12587566
How does the Bible refute that Jesus Christ founded Catholicism?
Also, remember the Catholic Church is the reason the Bible existed in the first place.

>>12587568
Your supposed to lay the burden of sin on Christ. Typical catholic thinking they can somehow atone for their own sins through works and not through only the grace of God and calling upon said grace.

>>12587579
>come into christian thread
>tell people to read satanic and occult literature
>christian tells someone not to read satanic and occult literature
>BUT THE BOARD IS ABOUT READING!

>>12587580
Because Jesus retreated on to heaven and nearly every apostle became a martyr and he says that you shall call no man 'father' for there is one father only, and that no man can find salvation except through Jesus. Anyone who goes to confession has not truly confessed except to man.

>>12587572
>and that is why Francis is referred to as Petros. You see Christ made the See of Rome the rock, and anyone a college of cardinals places there has all the other Apostles as his viceroys

>>12587581
Matthew 16:24-26
>24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Luke 9:23
>23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

>>12587572
It's a living church. The temple is the word and the word became flesh. Jesus is the one true church that is not sealed in the foundations of a building. Seeking any other path be it man or virtue you will not find salvation. God wants you to worship him. His prophets will align with his teachings. This is the only way to tell a holy man from the rest. God bless.

>>12587586
>Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism
>Kabbalstic and Hermetic analysis of Catholicism
just because a text doesn't align with your views doesn't mean it can't be relevant to Christian mysticism.

>>12587570
I haven't learned enough about Kabbalah, but I really don't think Hermeticism is Satanic. If you are Catholic, Thomas Aquinas said that it was a benevolent pagan philosophy that helped to show the future in Christ. If you are Protestant, Martin Luther thought the same. Obviously those men don't represent everyone in their faith, but there is undoubtedly truth in the philosophy. Ultimately, I don't practice hermeticism in any way, but I don't see how it is much different than Plato or any other Greek philosophy.

>>12587600
The cross to bear is referring to the only sin that is condemnable to help. Blasphemy of the holy spirit. The verse is about putting up your life for your beliefs not trying to work your way to heaven as both the mormons and Catholics purport it to be.

>>12587572
>“YOU are Peter, and upon THIS rock I will build my Church”
Why would Jesus refer to Peter, who he has already referred to as “you,” as “this”? Is it not possible that the rock is Peter’s confession of faith in Jesus as the Lord? Which interpretation seems the simplest and most straightforward? Which interpretation would you believe if you knew nothing about Catholicism or Protestantism? Can you honestly say you would interpreted Peter to be the pope?

>>12587639
Protestants always bring this up, but this runs contrary to the teachings of the Church Fathers.

>>12587557
I don't have any advice for you brother, but I feel moved by what you have confessed and will pray for you. God bless

>>12587647
Thank you friend. I appreciate it

>>12587644
The Church “Fathers” (see Matthew 23:9) can be corrupt. Once a time, there were three popes. Consider the possibility that men used the Bible to derive authority and have power over the population. One man having so much power is such an ugly sight. We are all brothers and sisters under the Lord.

>>12587639
Wouldn't be the first time Catholics altered the word of God. Peter acknowledged the existence of God and give his soul to him and repents. He casts away the shackles of sin binding him to deny the lord and his faith is the new rock. The new church will no be built with stone but with the word that became flesh. We believe in him and he will bring the fellowship to love one another as he loved us.

>>12587639
>15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

>16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

>17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

>Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for THIS was not revealed to you by flesh and blood
So here we see Jesus already refer to Peter’s statement as “this.”

>>12587564
'Guenonian Esoterism and Christian Mystery', it seems like it's perfectly tailored to your predicament

>Rene Guénon’s explication of the principles of an interior understanding of sacred forms has established his reputation in the West as the master theorist of esoterism. But till now his doctrine has not been the focus of thorough study in Christian circles, and this has had serious consequences. Guénonian Esoterism and Christian Mystery is the first major work to combine an analysis of Guénon’s ideas about esoterism with a critical examination of their application to Christianity in terms of data provided by Christianity itself. But to accomplish this, such data cannot simply be surveyed superficially—it must be known firsthand; hence the abundance of citations and references in this text. Such an approach not only lets us decide about certain issues, but may also help us rediscover an all too misunderstood facet of the revelation of Christ.

some reviews

René Guénon was one of the great metaphysical minds of the last few centuries, and it was a great loss to the Catholic Church when he converted to Islam. Prof. Borella shows in this landmark study exactly where Guenon's work remains of perennial value for Christians, but also demonstrates limitations that led Guénon to distort some important elements of Catholic and Orthodox doctrine. This work may well stimulate the recovery of authentic metaphysics within the Church for which Guénon longed, but which he despaired of seeing in his lifetime.
Stratford Caldecott, editor, Second Spring

Exhaustively documented and brilliantly conceived, this monumental treatise refutes a Guénonian thesis regarding the limits of Christianity and reaffirms the Patristic doctrine of theosis as the consummation of the Christian Way.
Wolfgang Smith, author of Cosmos & Transcendence

>>12587594
>Because Jesus retreated on to heaven
Yeah...? How does this refute Catholicism exactly?
>nearly every apostle became a martyr
Yes...? You know they lived after the gospels though, right? Like, the reason they were martyred was because of their missionary work as the Church
>call no man father, for there is one father only
This is not supposed to be taken literally. Are you going to pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin because Jesus said you should? I don't understand the kind of mental gymnastics you protestants go through to think Jesus was speaking literally when he said "call no man father" but symbolically when he said "this is my body", and how you justify "call no man father" being literal when you call your biological father your father. Jesus is talking about pride here, about the pharisees who take pride in being called "rabbi" and "father" by the people when they haven't done anything to really deserve that title. The apostles refer themselves as spiritual fathers (like a priest) all the time in the New Testament.
>"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
>"Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17)
> "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22)
So the apostles refer to themselves as fathers to Christians or imply fatherhood to Christians. And there is no reason to take the phrase "call no man father" literally, except to spite Catholics.
>no man can find salvation except through Jesus
Yes. The Catholic Church teaches this.
>but Mary!!
Mary just intercedes for us, like how a friend would pray for you. Mary doesn't save us, she petitions to her son Christ who saves us.

>>12587677
But Jesus also changes Peter's name; he becomes "Peter" where he was "Simon" before. God only changes people's names when he has some special destiny in mind for them, as in the case of Abraham (from Abram) and Israel (from Jacob). God had something in mind for Peter that was distinct from the other Apostles.

>>12587594
Paul literally refers to himself as the father of his flock. Christ didn't mean calling the clergy or biological parents father is haram, he meant it in the same sense he said to hate your father and mother.

>>12587420
>The Ascetic Homies

Great band

>>12587633
You are putting words in my mouth, dude. All I said was that he had to carry his cross. I never even said anything about Catholicism. When I said that he had to carry his cross, I was obviously talking about putting up your life for your beliefs, nobody said anything about works except for you. By the way, Catholics believe that you are saved by faith and grace, just not those alone, you need to have works which are the fruit of your faith. It's faith AND works, not works alone.
pic related is you

>>12587682
Great, thank you! I'll have to look around for it though. It seems that it isn't sold on Amazon and I can't find it on other book sellers either. He has another one that is in print called "Christ the Original Mystery: Esoterism and the Mystical Way, With Special Reference to the Works of Rene Guenon" It almost seems like the same book with a different name, but I'm not sure

>>12587687
It would still be much more safer to call priests “brother,” would it not? I just don’t see how you can call Jesus’ words a metaphor or hyperbole or whatever.

>8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
>for you have one Father
So don’t call them father because you have one Father, God. Why WOULD you take the risk and call them father anyway? Isn’t the safest bet to do what Jesus says? You don’t have to cut your hand off, but Jesus certainly wouldn’t mind, because that’s what he said. When Jesus says specifically not to do something, why do it? Why why why?

>>12587613
>The temple is the word and the word became flesh. Jesus is the one true church that is not sealed in the foundations of a building.
That is right, it is the Communion established by, well, Holy Communion

>>12587718
>Why WOULD you take the risk and call them father anyway?
It isn't a "risk" because the Church has always done that. It is proper. Is it also a "risk" to have Sunday instead of Saturday as our day of rest?

>>12587695
I just think that if that’s the case, Jesus would have been more specific. No one would be at fault for reading the Bible and not interpreting it the way Catholics do. Jesus could have said “you,” and not “this,” he could have specifically said that there would papal succession, but he doesn’t. That just seems odd to me.

>>12587718
Saint Paul refers to himself as the father of believers in 1 Corinthians 4;14-15, “I am not writing this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

There are numerous occasions when Paul refers to the past spiritual fathers and the "fathers" of the new testament. It is not to be taken literally. Additionally, there is a difference in the Greek between Father as Jesus refers to and Father in a symbolic fashion. Such things the KJV does not and cannot translate. Hence, you should not look to an English translation, much less with a modern perspective, as being an authentic interpretation.

>>12587738
The church once sold indulgences, that doesn’t mean it’s right. Everyone’s a sinner, including the Pope.

>>12587687
Any being that you should pray to instead of jesus will cause the prayer to go to a demon. The demon feeds off of the worship given to false Gods or any sort of idolatry. This is why God states this exact fact and also states that he is a jealous God. If at the foot of mount Sinai people were instead praying to a golden statue of Mary God would have just as quickly struck them down for this sin. Saying that God has pointed out examples and going to the stretch of saying that this justifies a golden palace who proclaim to be the arbiters of the word and actively suppressed its distribution last they form a false opinion. Think carefully about how the enemy will seek to deceive us an you will find that the lord wishes for there to be no barriers between you and him. Yes, they were martyred and between the time Jesus left and their martyrdom they did not plant a physical church. Even more so the very books you reference warn of people who will speak words like honey to the ear. Is it any coincidence that nearly every Pope has sought to elevate the political power of whatever king happened to take over. It's one thing to say what is Caesars is Caesars but it is the duty of the church of God to lead everyone including our leaders to Him.

>>12587304
It makes me incredibly sad to see how alive and connected the people in India are to their religion compared to the west. People queue for hours to show respect for their gods, while here you've never seen anyone queue to get into a church.

>>12587718
Ask the apostles and Paul why they refer to themselves as fathers to Christians and not me. They were the ones who started the tradition.
And they were taught directly by Christ so I think they know what they're doing.

>>12587744
I am Orthodox, and by "the Church" I mean the communion of saints, not this priest or that priest. The Church's position is unchanging since ancient times

>>12587743
>it is not to be taken literally
Then how IS it to be taken? I just want to know how you interpret it. “Call no man father.” He is talking to everyone, all believers. If it isn’t a literal commandment, what is it?

>>12587744
>Everyone's a sinner, including the Pope
Thanks captain obvious. You really didn't think that papal infallibility meant that Catholics believed the Pope was sinless, did you? You're not that ignorant right?
>sold indulgences
That's a protestant myth and I doubt you know what indulgences actually are.

>>12587759
If hating your father and mother isn't literal, then what is it??

>>12587106
I would suggest with reading the Church Fathers
especially when they say submit to Rome

ST. EPHRAIM THE SYRIAN
The Faith of the Early Fathers: Pre-Nicene and Nicene eras
edited by W. A. Jurgens
[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy
Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the
inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build
what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain
from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give
drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness that I dispense. I have chosen you
to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of
my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. BEHOLD, I HAVE GIVEN YOU AUTHORITY OVER ALL MY TREASURES [Homilies 4:1 (c. A.D. 353)].

>>12587715
In response to a man saying that Catholicism is depressing and restrictive you said that its their cross to bear. I stated that you don't have to live a burdensome life to find salvation and you responded by justifying a point I supported and you misrepresented and then a thisisyou.jpg. But whatever helps you justify your animosity towards most Christians nowadays.

>>12587750
They were like fathers, but Jesus is telling us to “CALL no man father/instructor/teacher, etc.” So no one would actually say “Father Paul.”

>tfw enjoy theology, have read many theological works, defend Christians posts in arguments here, write religiously charged posts, but am really a (hard) atheist.

>>12587715
imagine making this image
>pol
dire

>>12587778
Atheism won't help us in this cold world

>>12587778
We are a lot alike. I've found that most philosophy is indefensible so I defend and decry whichever. Its actually pretty therapeutic. I no longer hate anyone for their beliefs.

>>12587771
Rome isn't mentioned in there lol. Furthermore Popes don't even select their own successors anymore

>>12587184
Thirding this. Y'all idol worshippers are all right

>>12587767
Why are you changing the subject? Can you give no interpretation at all? What good is a verse if we take no meaning from it?

Luke 14
>Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Obviously Jesus means that we should value our faith over this world, including all things in it. That doesn’t imply being disrespectful to people, but simply recognizing that they’re not as important as your salvation.

>>12587774
Source? Oh no ancient theologian I imagine, just an early modern one

>>12587774
What should the mediators of the Church be called, then? And they do, indeed, have to exist, because Jesus established in the Gospel that he was appointing servants to carry out his will once he ascended into Heaven.

>>12587745
>praying to a golden statue
Catholics don't pray to statues.
Also, you seem to think prayer = worship, because your protestant religion is so shallow that the only way you can worship God is through prayer and rock songs.
When we "pray" to Mary, we are simply asking for her to pray to God for us, since she is in Heaven, she is closer to God than we are, literally in His presence, and being the Mother of Christ (who is God, which makes her the Mother of God), Christ will lovingly fulfill her petitions.
Revelation 5:8
>8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
The saints receive our prayers in Heaven and bring them to God. Its just like asking your friend to pray for you. The saints are alive in Heaven. Have you ever heard or read a petition to a saint by a Catholic? They always say to the saint "Pray for us/me". They're asking the saint to pray to God for them, they're not directly asking the saint to save them by themselves.

>>12587812
Jesus said to call no man father. No verses in the Bible ever include anyone calling a religious leader father. So there is no contradiction here.

>this thread right now

>>12587570
topcuck

>>12587823
Every Christian thread on /lit/ is like this. I don't know why anyone tries to have a meaningful discussion of Christianity on 4chan, since you can't discuss anything on 4chan without shitposters and retards.

>>12587817
>because your protestant religion is so shallow that the only way you can worship God is through prayer and rock songs.
I could just as easily say you overdress your worship because a prayer is too boring for you. It’s not right to criticize people because they simply follow what the Bible says.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD4j1QNOg60

>>12587855
there was a thread that a former monk posted a week or so ago that was quite good. I don't think all of them have to be bad. It's only when theological debates start that is becomes fruitless. I just wanted to discuss mysticism :(((

>>12587864
Read The Cloud of Unknowing. Go to Eucharistic Adoration and pray deeply and silently before the exposed Host. Pray contemplatively.

>>12587858
>prayer is too boring for you
Its not. I'm just implying that theres more to worship than just prayer.
>simply follow what the Bible says
Well not really, you just misinterpret verses to criticize other beliefs you don't like, and the Bible isn't the sole authority for Christians. The Bible wasn't put together into one book until around 300 years after Christ's death and resurrection. Before that, they were just writings floating around that not everyone could read anyway since literacy wasn't as common as it is now. Do you know what Christians did for the first 300 years when they didn't have a Bible? They followed the authority of the Church.

>>12587879
I’ll just say this: Jesus is clear on what it takes to be saved. I don’t believe Catholics will go to hell or anything like that, I think people can worship in different ways, but, in my opinion, following the unchanging Word is the best option. We don’t know what evil forces are acting in this world, who we can trust, but the Bible will never pass away.

>>12587898
>We don’t know what evil forces are acting in this world
the bible is pretty clear about this

>>12587858
>I could just as easily say you overdress your worship because a prayer is too boring for you

You realize Catholics are required to pray 15 minutes minimum everyday on their own time?

>>12587817
The saints are every Christian. This is clear. Worship is far more shallow in a catholic church where everyone puts ash on their forehead and listens to the humming an haing of a geriatric old man. No catholic I know worships in any way and is bound by ritual completely. Would you pray to a statue of Satan. You just stated it's not worship so who cares. You could also just as easily pray to Abraham Lincoln.

>>12587927
>this is your mind on Protestantism

Do you even know anything about the Catholic tradition?

>>12587907
Yes, false teachers. They are the single biggest threat. Putting any fault to the word of God is wrong. If you doubt the divine intervention of the word then you may as well wager on any God. The bible was brought about as the last testament of Jesus Christ and it was not written 300 years afterwards. If you believe this you also have a horrible idea of the integrity of the iliad and the odyssey. The bible was told in spoken form just like most books were before being put into print.

>>12587927
That guy literally just said Catholics don't pray to statues.

Are you retarded?

>>12587946
>points out cognitive dissonance
>no arguement
I know enough to know that it does not fall into accordance with the bible and you are hardly being a good representation of a Christian let alone a Catholic. You can't answer for the multitude of popes, the error in logic of praying to Mary but not others, or the clear fact that the Pope today does not represent the views of Jesus Christ and is therefore a false teacher.

>titus 1: 10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
what did the new testament mean by this?

>>12587952
>we pray to a mortal woman who died not a statue
That's really swell. No wonder you people listen to anybody who happens to obtain a scepter with a crucifix.

>>12587952
He also said prayer isn't worship which is what the reply was centered on. If prayer isn't worship then he should feel free to pray to a statue

>>12587570
I've been very interested in hermetic isn lately, but I'm having difficulty grasping what it even is, which I think is why I like it- wrestling to find meaning is somehow satisfying to me, like a baby sucking a soother.

Any recommendations for me anyone, on what to read?

>>12587898
I agree with you. The Bible is very important to Catholics, contrary to some ignorant protestant ideas.

>>12587959
I'm not your resource. You're a grown man and are able to look at what the Church teaches, you may remain ignorant out of you pride.

>>12587962
It means that there are people who will purport to be friends of the church who will distract from God in the house of God by using the place as a means to an end. Eg. Every 'Christian' politician.

Anyway, has anyone here actually read any texts of mysticism? I read Saint Teresa of Avila's "The Interior Castle" years ago as an undergrad, but I'd like to revisit it soon.

>>12587969
Your ad hominem attacks mean nothing

>>12587978
He was talking about how prayer isn't all of worship, are you ignoring what his post was about?

>>12587985
Well then that's great, because if you think that way you don't really have much to say. Teaching others is the only way to receive any amount of respectability be it in academia or theology, but it doesn't quite matter since Catholics aren't big into conversion anyway.

>>12587990
>you r retard
> you do logical fallacy
Yikes.

>>12587995
You can't teach someone when they don't want to listen. You're going to look for reason to debate, not to learn.

Like I said I'm not your resource. There are hundreds of sources online for you to read.

>>12587993
Define worship, because prayer is a form of worship and if you pray to anyone but God you are sinning.

>>12587999
>thinks catholics are pagans and gets called out for being retarded

>>12587995
>Catholics aren't big into conversion anyway
What does this even mean? You do realize that there are millions of Catholics who are converts right? Do you think that because Catholics dont go door to door like Mormons or JWs they don't care about converting people? Literally the entire reason Catholics in this thread are trying to argue and defend their beliefs is to convert you.

>>12588003
>don't question what I teach you
I didn't ask for resources but ok.

>>12588004
Define prayer.

>>12588008
You have contributed nothing to this thread aside from quotes and a misplaced insult

>>12588004
Worship isn't just prayer, learn to read.

Worship is about devotion, for catholics this means living a pious life, committing to the sacrements and from abstaining from sin. Spreading the good message, and engaging in charity. This is all worship, not just prayer. Prayer is very important but it's not all one ought to do.

>>12588009
They argue for themselves, and I find the missionary attitude of those people to be a redeeming quality unlike Catholics who can't even rely on their own leader to spread the word of God, but continue to support him in spite of this.

>>12588014
When you pray your goal is to worship God. People who ask God for material things are not doing it correctly. You must thank him for what you have and admit that you are sinful and confess to him this. You must repent after this. You may also simply call upon his name which is given to us for this purpose. You must also pray that his will be done. All else is blasphemous.

>>12588026
We obey our pastoral Authority but it does not mean we condone his words or actions.

>Another comfy Christian thread
Ah, nice.

Anyone got any recommendations for Christian fiction? I'm not talking about the 'Narnia' series but more something like 'I heard the owl call my Name'.

Thanks in advance.

>>12588021
Which is why I stated that Catholics seek salvation through works and not worship and grace.

>>12588036
This is where you sin. By obeying someone who does not align himself with the lords teachings you have been led astray by a false teacher. The bible states that people who do not say what precious prophets or God himself have said are not true prophets

>>12588052
How do you know that you truly support the word of God?

>inb4 I read the Bible

What if your interpretation of the Bible is wrong? What happens when you approach someone who has interpreted Scripture differently than you have?

>>12588038
War and Peace is the only fiction one I can think of. Do you also like philosophy or biography?

>>12588061
If someone has interpreted it differently than me then we would have to exchange ideas much the same as me and you are right now. Be wary that this is the same tactics mormons use.

>>12588063
More into the philosophy part; themes of redemption, faith, anger, death and etc.
>>12587988
Dark Knight of the Soul

>>12588077
If you haven't gotten around to any Augustine yet I would recommend him. I learned a lot from him even aside from faith.

>>12588096
Isn't there a thing with Augustine being quite wrong on some important notions of Christianity? Kind of like how there's some controversy around Paul?

'Kingdom of God' is on the list though.

>>12588043
Which is wrong, because we do all of this out of Love and Faith for Christ.

>>12588119
Worship is not works but fruit of the spirit. Continue to delude yourself though.

>>12588132
That statement doesn't disagree with anything I've said.

I'm a convert from Calvinism btw.

>>12588117
His arguements for why Christianity is the most viable option are very compelling. He may be wrong about some things but his arguements are strong. The only things I could think he got wrong is the notion of babies going to hell as well as people who have never heard the word. Read confessions and ignore the self hatred.

>>12588143
Why would you switch from calvinism to Catholicism. Calvinism is correct about predestination for sure. If you worship God with works be it fruit of the spirit or not you are attempting to salvage your own life. The only way to God is through prayer , the word, and spending time in meditation on him alone

>>12588147
not him, but it's spelled "arguments"

>>12588147
Thanks anon. I'll read it when I can..

>>12588163
My bad. thank you. English is my second language.

>>12588165
who's this sissy?
need me a bf like this

>>12588174
I'm glad I'm not the only one who looked at the stockings sinfully.

>>12588162
Because I actually researched Church history and recognized the Catholic tradition as truth after many months.
>If you worship God with works be it fruit of the spirit or not you are attempting to salvage your own life
What? I don't see my self as "earning" salvation, it's through grace alone no matter what we do.
>The only way to God is through prayer , the word, and spending time in meditation on him alone
And..the sacrements and taking part in his divine gifts that he gave the Church, as I've been saying.

>>12588187
You will not listen to my points and you don't even seek to refute them. You bounce around on the subject of grace no matter what I say. I have already stated I disagree with your notions but you continue to state them without even thinking about what I say. It is clear that you will not listen to reason. I'm going to go play Apex Legends. God bless.

>>12588187
Not to mention predestination is undeniable.

>>12588204
Okay man, have a goodnight God bless.

>>12588211
Double predestination is, however.

*sigh*

another moronic christcuck circlejerk /pol/-refugee thread.

a skeptic's work is never done...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1c_GlAjvy4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQmMFQzrEsc

>>12588243

>>12587586
>>12587570
Fuck off retard

>>12587981
Start listening to prog rock

>>12588243
now this is redpilled

>>12588243
>Richard Carrier

Why is this always posted?
>>12588187
Good for you anon. Welcome to the church.

>>12588255
They don't understand Gnosticism can coincide with the right hand path, which Jesus was the personification of. These people probably have sex with women they have no feelings for, or no sex at all.

>>12587557
Christianity can't help you with your problems. It just says you're a bad person and need to stay that way and feel bad about it.

However the Indian meditative traditions can actually free you from these problems and the negative feelings that Christianity programs you with. Isn't this what you really want? To be saved from yourself? It is possible , and in this life , but only with the correct efforts. Simply adhering to some beliefs, as Christians demand, will never help you. It is part of your bondage.

>>12587106
Book of Enoch

>>12587802
You mean catholicism yes?

>>12588861
I know you're trying to help him, but it's better to let him stick to the faith he's chosen, and find his solace within it despite these hiccups of his. It's good to leave information suggesting alternatives, but let's not denigrate other faiths and simply let their followers find their path within them. Proselytizing is not tasteful or necessary.

t. indian

>>12589012
Thank you for your kind words Indian-bro.

>>12587555
>>12587566
>>12587572
>>12587639

>The Church that Jesus told Peter about has or would have invincibility against contesting Churches as a principle. I do not consider the Catholic Church having to peacefully and/or begrudgingly share the claim to Christianity with the Orthodox and Protestant Churches, and the claim to Abrahamic Monotheism with Jews and Muslims, as abiding by said principle. I am ultimately against all clergy, but for the sake of Reason alone I would think Jesus was not referring to the Catholic Church, rather than misspeaking about its principle of invincibility.

The last time I posted this someone got so buttmad he deleted the thread.

>>12587570

Hermeticism, Kabbalism, Tarot: no idols, no clergy, no saints, no fish hats - Satanic.

Catholicism: idols, clergy, saints, fish hats - not Satanic.

>hmmmmMMMMMMM.png

>>12587160
If you want to take the Nietzsche pill but still believe in Christ try reading Blake.

>>12588255

Pretty good.

>>12587718
What Christ actually said maters very little to most Christians and not at all the the churches.

>>12589081
>By their fruits you shall know them.
>and endless orchid of sexually and psychologically maimed children

>>12587682
>and it was a great loss to the Catholic Church when he converted to Islam.

Was it really? Isn't his interpretation of Christianity inherently heretical? Also, quick rundown on Borella's critique of Guenon?

>>12589685
Yeah I'm not sure whether I agree with that myself. Guenon was really only a practicing Catholic for his youth. He was involved in Masonry and other secret societies for quite a decent amount of time in his early adulthood. He certainly saw value in Catholicism since he was married in the Church and had correspondences with multiple priests, but I don't think that he had his sights set much on the west.

>>12587555
cringe and larppilled
>>12589038
based and redpilled

>>12587304
Your crushing feeling should be evidence of its truth. Christianity is hard. You cant have a spiritual doctrine that is true and at the same time lets you do everything and anything. But you should be encouraged precisely that your feeling of being crushed is the very evidence of change in being you're talking about. Thankfully I think we dont understand the true consequences of sin in its full detail, otherwise we would be crushed even more. But dont make yourself feel too burdened by guilt, because God's grace is infinitely more powerful. Of course being a Christian, you will have moments of victory, shameful defeat, guilt, grace and the full spectrum of emotions. It can get really, really hard when you dont only have an interior struggle but a material one in your environment be it in your family or at work or a financial problem. Its not a joke, you have to learn to recognize that you are on a journey where you're going to fall and where you dont have all the answers. The goal is to carry on and believe that God is using life to shape and develop you into something mature, beautiful and worthwhile. That can be sometimes rather painful. One of the biggest "tricks" I have found myself to fall for is the situation where you feel you are doing good and then you relapse and repeat the same sin and obviously immense guilt follows. I've found I actually lackes humility in that when I was doing good I thought highly of myself relative to the world out there and when I relapsed what followed was the accusation of "how could YOU who know the truth do it again etc.", and I realized there is pride involved in both situations. Fasting, praying, penance and works of charity are good principles to follow. I was especially surprised how good fasting works (something like say only taking water and bread on Friday, I dont think it has to be extreme). Prayer and charity I always understood conceptually but I didnt always get why fasting would work. Just eating modestly one or two days in a week like described above improved how I felt a lot. It was easier to avoid unhelpful thoughts like envy, lust, self-aggrandizing etc as well. It makes you sober. Would recommend.

>>12589890
As an exercise, I think you get a much better understanding of your faults or strengths when you try to think about what is happening to your being in relation to certain actions or thoughts. I've found that for me it is quite interconnected. When I eat too much or even to fast or if I drink too much that will be a springboard for lust and other thoughts that are in itself problematic and vice versa. Yet when I fast and think of Christ, I am content and calm. The number of influences around you that form your mental states are innumerable. For this reason I dislike turning on the radio. The repetitive, hyper-sexualized pop songs are not helpful to sober living. Im not saying there is a conspiracy of producers trying to do just that. But when your priority is profit above all, which in pop music is almost certainly the case, the end result is what it is. In this sense I think we can see how sin spreads like a viral infection. Pop music whose sole purpose is to generate profit abovea all other considerations is nothing but idolatry turning into lust, sexual temptation and pride for its listeners. Its not necesaary that human agents knowingly assent to this or be aware of it. Its enough that a record producer thinks only about what will sell, he doesnt have to intentionally want to have naked women shaking their butts in his music video but that is the end result of his desire for profit. Obviously I have made a bit of a caricature, but I think in this "independent logic" behind the first layer of human logic, you see the mechanism of evil. So I think its valuable to start seeing the things and the ideology around you and what kind of influence it has on a person's being.

The Universe as Symbols and Signs: An Essay on Mysticism in the Eastern Church
by St. Nikolaj Velimirović

>Basically, I'm symbal

>>12587160
The church is only incomplete in as much as man's knowledge can never be complete. You should rejoice in this though. It means that there is still much you can discover. You should revile any system which holds itself to be fully defined and explained. It is the mystery that remains that gives us hope. It is only in the mystery that we can really come to see God's presence.

>>12587677
>using the English translation provided by the Catholic Church to disprove the Catholic Church based on a very strict and limited reading of their translation because all we need to know the word of God is the bible, not the people who wrote it.
.wew

>>12591071
God wrote the Bible, doofus. The Catholics would’ve changed the wording if they could.

>>12591078
How did God write it?

>>12591094
>these people once wrote the Bible, therefore they can never do wrong and will always interpret it correctly
yeah ok

>>12591110
>The one and only thing these people got right were the letters
>Everything else can be ignored
The story of Jesus was preserved by tradition. When did this tradition stop being meaningful? When was communion with the apostles lost? Once lost, how could it ever be recovered?

>>12587555
Orthocux btfo.

>>12587160
>have become a bit disillusioned with the Church
You're not supposed to take the Church that seriously, it's worldly and political, and is most useful as a spiritual tool. Expecting it to teach esoteric ideas to everyone is unrealistic.

>>12589038
>i'm spiritual not religious lol

>>12587988
Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich, St. Hildegard von Bingen, St. Faustina Kowalska

>>12587748
Christianity isn't a European religion that's why. The moment people don't fully believe in it, they completely forsake it.

This won't happen to authentic religion traditions, Shintoism will continue even though most Japanese do not literally believe in it because it still speaks to them on a fundamental level, on a tribal and cultural level. The stories, myths and the geography of the religion is theirs.

The moment doubt sets in in the European Christian, Christianity just becomes the religion created by the guy from the foreign levant that supposedly walked on water.

It's a tough pill to swallow that your wonderful ancestors made a mistake, but at a certain point you just have to accept it and try your best to make sure your descendants won't have to swallow the same pill about YOU.

>>12589038
>something being invincible means it will be unassailed.
>Because God has given us something of value, we need not do anything to keep it
>When God speaks of the Church, he speaks of some other entity, and not us, his believers.
>The health of the corporeal church is identical to the health of the spiritual church
>God saved us, so our work on Earth is done
What incredible heresy you speak

>>12591185
>Shintoism will continue even though most Japanese do not literally believe in it because it still speaks to them on a fundamental level, on a tribal and cultural level. The stories, myths and the geography of the religion is theirs.

What a fucking worthless religion it is, then. Who cares if they practice it if they don't believe in it?

>>12591244
Performing your duties without craving of the fruits of the actions > skydaddy will give me cummies if I do as told

>>12591262
I believe in and practice Christianity because I'm convinced of its truth. I believe Christianity is true and all other religions are wrong. I even think all other religions should be eliminated, and this is because I think they're false.

What's the point of going through the motions in a religion you don't believe in? What value does it bring you? It all just seems like a waste of time and money. Culture is worthless, tribe is worthless, all that matters is the Truth.

>>12591185
But the religion is correct. Westerners have come to doubt the wrong thing. It was the modernism, the scientism, the atheism of Europe's elite which has brought about this nightmare of machinery on the world, with all its accompanying death and hatred. The West is not in turmoil because the Europeans forgot their pagan ways, but because they resurrected the pagan faith, and by its new dress, called it something new. Do you not see that Progress, Equality, Liberty, these things, in the secular vision, have become new gods. Do you not see the terrible sacrifices being demanded so that these gods might shower us with prosperity? The west fails because Bacchus is a fickle master.

>>12589035
No problem my Christian-friend. May you have a blessed day today.

Awww yeah bitches

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-approves-canonization-of-john-henry-newman-34200

Everyone should read Newman, the man is a genius. I hope he's declared a Doctor of the Church, too.

>>12587557
Honestly give up the tradcath meme and give "liberal vatican 2 catholicism" a try, you can be spiritual and do good out of love. Fear and guilt isn't needed for everyone, it doesn't sound like it's helping you.

"Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is sweet and my burden light. "

>>12591185
Pretty based post desu. But don't you think it's more accurate to say Christianity has spread and become part of European culture. A new religion usually won't replace the native culture. In the east (and the west) new teachings and schools spread, replace old ones or disappear all the time.

>>12591139

>>12591319
>fear and guilt
Traditional catholocism isn't about fear and guilt. As someone trying to become more traditional, this is why Vatican 2 was important. Most of the faith had forgotten what the religion really was. Vatican 2 was essentially a way of bringing ecumenicalism to baptized, who had forgotten the meaning of their rituals. Once you see the tradition for the love it represents, you will begin to see the world much clearer.

>>12591267
>I even think all other religions should be eliminated
That's so cute, a new convert.

The secret of the rosary by Louis de Montfort
Other books by this author as well

On receiving the Holy spirit by seraphim of sarov

>>12591361
Sigh, this. I don't even respond to those types anymore, best to just let them walk the path they are on.

>>12591474
>Sigh
stopped reading. You have to go back.

>>12591361
>>12591474
All other religions should be eliminated. The important question, the most demanding question, is how is this properly done?

>>12591319
The only people who say traditional Catholicism is a meme are either non-Catholics, or people who wish to experience it but can't. There is literally no reason to go to a Novus Ordo mass if you have a Latin mass available. It is better spiritually, it is far more solemn, and it complemented with far better hymns. I am not a convert and have been Catholic all my life, so no, you can't pull the larping card either. It is absolutely mind boggling that anyone can see guitar masses, watered down sermons, and impiety towards the sacraments as being justified. I don't see Vatican II as being the only bad thing to ever happen, but it is surely a sign of the times.

>>12591731
I don't think novus ordo is quite so bad as that, but it is definitely a sign of the times.

reminder, underneath all of the larping, this is what your belief system looks like under any sort of rational scrutiny:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3E8wpBO_I

>>12591751
>bill nye
>against a creationist
how 115 can somebody be?

>>12591751
What happened to Bill Nye?

>>12591954
His show sucked, and the people paying him realized that he helped the "alt right" more than he kept the Rick and Morty fans complacent.

>>12587555
>>12587566
Based and breadpilled. Ignorant anons: look up filioque.

>>12588174
repent

>>12591316

watcha recommend

>>12591731
I don’t disagree about TLM (the Dominican rite was good too) but I’m glad I never got to experience a guitar NO first hand. They’ve been pretty good here.

>>12587304
>Catholicism has made me more sad than I was before I got semi-serious with my faith. No doubt it has made me a better and more principled person, but it has also changed my psychology.
You nailed it Anon
I know "it's not supposed to be easy" and all that, but there are times when all I feel is disgust with myself, then fall into despair, then feel even more disgusted because despair is a sin.
The positive spiritual moments I feel are so rare compared to months of dread and hopelessness. It's not like larpers on the internet say when they try to encourage you. It's fucking miserable most of the time.
Then you read things like Dark Night of the Soul and realize that no, it's pretty much supposed to be like that.

>>12592077
https://www.amazon.com/Idea-University-Notre-Great-Books/dp/0268011508/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1550096101&sr=8-9&keywords=john+henry+newman

>>12592139
Go to Confession more frequently. If you struggle with sin and despair, give it to the Lord and let him help you out. "My yoke is easy and my burden light." Also, don't be afraid to pray. Talk to God sincerely, he's always there to listen.

>>12592077
IIRC Joyce liked his sermons the best. R.H. Hutton particularly liked Newman’s novel ‘Loss and Gain’.

>>12591731
I've seen how sedevacantists emphasise herecies, the fires of hell and all that, they're quite fucked up people mentally as a result, and the only thing left they can find peace in is doctrinal purism.

I guess that's why /pol/ likes it, it's completely neurotic and accusatory.

>>12587106
Angela of Foligno. I'm reading her and it's fucking insane.

Also Pico della Mirandola if you're interested in the connection between (neo)Platonism and Christian theology.

>>12587160
Read whatever you can find by Marsilio Ficino and Nicholas of Cusa.

>be me
>go to Church
>everyone is old as fuck
>mfw there are only old people in Church and can't connect with anyone
What do?

>>12592217
You keep going for yourself. You have to meet God, not other people. Maybe when you will be pure enough you will meet a girl like you. And then you will know she is a gift from God.

>>12592175
Some of it is justified. If you do not live a moral life, you will be punished. However, I do agree that the reactionary tendency of the sedevacantists is decidedly untraditional.

>>12592217
Ironically, the more conservative Churches tend to have younger populations. Not always of course, but the traditional Catholic Church I go to has plenty of people my age. A cheat code to find parishes with younger populations is to find old ones that don't have ramps and have lots of steps to go up before entering the Church. Half the time old people literally can't get up them. Sad to say, but it's true.

>>12592217
Why focus on an exoteric aspect? The age of the people attending the mass, the way the ritual is performed, it has nothing to do with how you experience and love God yourself.

>>12591474
>Sigh
>>>/reddit/

>>12587106
I always tell myself that the meaning of life and the way to do away with existential philosophical problems is through christian mysticism and I'm actually convinced of the truth of the Catholic doctrine, but I can't help to have doubt. My faith oscillates so much. I want to remain faithful and I'm convinced of the truth of the matter but I'm a weak person.

>>12593254
Keep it up anon. It'll be worth it to continuously develop your knowledge and faith.

>>12593254
>with existential philosophical problems
Like what?

>>12588038
Laurus

>>12591210

Catholicism being Phenomenally deserted precisely because of its Spiritual bankruptcy. Ironically, this kind of causal inference is prominently integral to Catholicism.

>>12587566
>>12587555
Threadly reminder that Francis is an antipope and most of the clergy have fallen away from the true Catholic faith by acknowledging heretics as Catholics obstinately, by professing obstinate heresy, by adhering to a man who is without a shadow of doubt a non-Catholic antipope, by accepting JPII and Paul VI as "saints" by denying the dogma that outside the church there is absolutely no salvation and countless other things.

>>12595307
>t. everything would be great if we just murdered homos

>>12595452
Because all the popes before Francis murdered homos. This is the only difference.

>>12587988
Angela of Foligno is better

Please for love of God someone find all the books in the /Christian/ recommended reading list.

>>12587715
what does it mean, lads. why does one of them go off from the group to stand with the retard. why does one of them ask "lol where is he going?" someone explain to me. please. it's been years and I still don't know.

>>12587202
I recommend this book as well.