/lit/ - Literature

>>12577584
>religion is collective humanties attempt through history to make sense of the world
>OP thinks this is somehow an argument to throw out all that work

>>12577584
Daily reminder that there's absolutely no reason to think that religion isn't a prerequirement for human flourishing

>>12577597
>hey bro, alchemy was practiced for millenia! let's not throw all that work!
>hey bro, why not take some herbs to treat cancer? it was used for millenia! why are throwing out all that work?
>hey bro, astrology is practiced for millenia! you don't really want to throw out all this knowledge, right?

1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2: For something to cause something else, it nees to have the capacity to cause that something else.
3: The universe began to exist.
4: Therefor the universe has a cause which has the capacity to create a universe, which everyone calls god.

>>12577584
oh look he just read nietzsche and feuerbach

>>12577625
>He doesn't know alchemy and astrology were/are esoteric forms of philosophy that pretended to be something as a pleb filter.

Also these examples are terrible, all three of them are the starting points of modern forms of science. They were never just thrown out, they where adapted. Were as most atheist types want to throw religions out wholesale as if they have nothing at all to offer.

Daily reminder that there is absolutely no reason to believe in any philosophy and that they are only meaningless scribbles made by early concious "humans" trying to understand their place in the universe. You can track and see the evolution of philosophies and see how they are bullshit and how they built on top of each other. Any "rational" argument for philosophy can at best produce things like "b-but the reality c-can't come out of nothing!", and any attempt to rationalize a personal, immaterial, all encompassing truth can only end in faith, which returns you back to "why can't this immaterial all encompassing concept show itself rationally to humanity?" which sends you to the cold hard reality that by seeking philosophy, you're actually seeking validation, you're seeking mental crutches, a primal behavior that lurks within the abstract soup that you call "morality".

>>12577658
>Were as most atheist types want to throw religions out wholesale as if they have nothing at all to offer.
The contempt atheists show against religion is because religion creeps into all spheres of society. Especially politics. So of course they want to tear down the structures. Look at what Arabs are doing to the world because of some ridiculous 5th century belief. It's not a matter of "religion is useless", because any well read atheist knows how benefitious religion can be, but because it's just too dangerous to let it become powerful in society. So for now, religion should be destroyed until we can find a way to replace it.

>>12577674
Based and redpilled.

>>12577680
Dangerous by what metric? In that it prevents you from restructuring society in your moral nihilist image? Sorry, can't say I have a lot of sympathy with your vision. The dismissing of religious belief like it's some superstitious fairy tale is very 2008. Maybe try getting some better arguments.

insipid

once you learn to let go of the forms of belief and discern their content you'll look back on these threads and laugh.

>>12577674
Incredibly based, philosophy btfo

>>12577584
Nice try, but it's too late for them.

>>12577674
OP absolutely eviscerated. Abstraction will not save you.

>>12577631
>assuming that the laws of causality and rules of logic apply to the early universe
>assuming they apply to the birth of the universe
>assuming they apply to whatever might be prior to the universe
I have always found the different cosmological arguments for God to be compelling, but these last few days I've found I'm losing faith. If anyone can convince me to believe again, I'd be very grateful. Without faith in divine justice, I don't see any reason to live

>>12577680
>religion creeps into all spheres of society. Especially politics.
Isn't this inevitable for any functional world philosophy/religion? You cant really have competing world views among the masses without creating a low trust society, and breeding conflict that will result one of those views becoming dominant anyways. And sure you can point to any specific religion and say its got flaws, but seems to me just my the virtue of survival of the fittest they got more right than any of the now dead religions they came in contact with.

>So for now, religion should be destroyed until we can find a way to replace it.
Seems to like this is the equivalent of having minor quibbles about your car and chucking it in the ditch on the highway and hoping (dare I say praying) that somehow a better one happens to show up. Is it not better to wait till this something else that's supposed to replace it has actually proven itself as viable?

>>12577736
If your faith was based on syllogisms, it was never faith. That a notion of divine justice exists in its apparent absence IS faith. Read the mystics, not the theologians.

>>12577736
Don't you find a little weird that you have to delude yourself in order to please an all powerful entity? Imagine that in real life. "I don't work and i'm starving and i haven't got any money for the past 2 months but if i start believing it, money will appear in my pockets. just... gotta... believe..."

>>12577736
Stop thinking about them in terms of certainty. Instead think about them in terms of probability. Belief in God follows from several common-sense assumptions about the nature of reality. I'd recommend reading Alvin Plantinga to help you through your scepticism friend. The Analytic Theist reader and God and Other Minds.

>>12577752
No? Choosing to stand firm with the idea that reality has meaning, an optimism in the face of anxiety, isn't some absurd notion. I don't think that that ultimate concern and money showing up in your pocket are really the same thing at all.

>>12577753
>belief in God is just like learning how to balance your stock portfolio

sink burgerland right this minute

>>12577763
You're not standing firm with the idea that reality has meaning. You're deluding yourself that reality has meaning. "I don't find any meaning in life unless i abandon reason and start really believing that it has meaning... then it has! but if i stop deluding myself that it has meaning, oh no, look! reality has no meaning again :("

>>12577777
you accuse him of reifying meaning, while you reify its absence. you're both goobers

>>12577777
How do you even know I'm deluding myself? Do you have some kind of objective transcendent perspective on reality from which all belief systems can be scrutinized? I'm choosing to put myself into an optimistic system of life, and you choose a pessimistic one. I can't understand your thinking. In the face of an irresolvable question, why place my bets with the choice that'll make me and everyone else lost and miserable?

>>12577777
the universe is indifferent to even its own indifference. or rather, consciousness is that redoubled indifference. the divine is in all things. everything is alive.

>>12577736
I don't understand how the laws of logic could not apply? I genuinely can understand what the alternative would be

>>12577812
genuinely can't understand*

>>12577584
Why can't this immaterial all powerful God show himself to humanity? Because that misses the point. This world is a test. We're supposed to find God through an intuition inherent to all of us and make ourselves fight our free will to do wrong. If God was constantly there to scrutinise us there would be no point.

>>12577777
What is reason? What is the meaning of the word?

>>12577736
All of them are axiomatic facts. Denying them is a preformative contradiction.

Daily reminder that there is absolutely no reason to believe in any science and that they are only meaningless scribbles made by early concious "humans" trying to understand their place in the universe. You can track and see the evolution of science and see how they are bullshit and how they built on top of each other. Any "rational" argument for science can at best produce things like "b-but the universe i-is intelligible", and any attempt to rationalize a personal, immaterial, all knowing process can only end in faith, which returns you back to "why can't this all powerful process show himself to be true?" which sends you to the cold hard truth that by seeking science, you're actually seeking God, you're seeking the unfathomable, a primal behavior that lurks within the chemical soup that you call "brain".

Reason cannot decide either way. Have faith, then, that He does exist.

>>12578289
This. Reason reaches no conclusions. It's a tool, not a God.

>>12577625
>hey bro, why not take some herbs to treat cancer? it was used for millenia! why are throwing out all that work?
Where do you think chemiotherapy comes from you faggot?

>>12577584
daily reminder that God is real
repent or perish.

>>12577584
Babbys first elimination materialism.

Ah I remember being like you, it’s so depressing and so sad.

>>12579195
spooked

have a nice day

>>12577584
Anyone who finds Aquinas convincing has already made up their mind beforehand and is actively seeking an aesthetically robust framework for their beliefs with a similitude of logic. Ultimately ideas like "Evil is the absence of the Good" are pretty but are no more meaningful than "Jergenschlut is the absence of der Heigergieger".

Apologetics is single-minded not in creating a logically consistent view of God and theology but applying the pretense of rationality to a theology which is already decided as the primary object of the endeavor, not reconciling with rationality itself.

Somehow I find the Orthodox tendency to say "shut up! Stop asking questions that are not for the comprehension of man" more theologically sound and of course, honest. Suspending everything with mystery is perfectly fine in my book; you say you are taking something on faith alone, well then there ought to be no need to prove it. So I find the Orthodox position ultimately more dignified, since it is more consistent with the ideal of faith. Not to mention the intellect is the outcome of the fall of man and entirely at satan's disposal.

>>12577680
>...religion creeps into all spheres of society. Especially politics. So of course they want to tear down the structures.
Do you think the society we live in was innovated by some genius who rationalized the whole structure? The west owe's everything it has built itself up to to the christian philosophy it's predicated on. The fact that all citizens regardless of class/ethnicity are entitled to legal rights and freedoms and the fact that we act as though all people share equal intrinsic moral significance is a product of christian philosophy.

>>12577680
Arabs would be doing that regardless of their arbitrary religion. Religion is downstream from race brochacho. You'd have a very similar problem with Arabs, if not worse if they were still practicing pre-islam semitic cult religions, or if they weren't religious at all.

>>12577584
But of course, the warm that only a few will go to heaven and that you actually have to change yourself and bear your cross is really the primitive, impulsive behavior everyone craves. That those who are the lowest here will be the highest in the other world is truly what all the people with full egos follow and want. Just admit that you're illiterate and don't have basic knowledge of the most famous Book(s) of all time and that you shouldn't even be permitted to post on this board.

>>12577658

Based

>>12577680
>So for now, religion should be destroyed until we can find a way to replace it.
I think Hitler and Stalin tried that. Wouldn't it be better to reconcile religion with rationality by trying to understand the actual significance of it? Everything human beings have done is a product of nature and from the moment we evolved to become intelligent we began to form religions. Even a Darwinian atheist should recognize that there is more to religion than superstition. It's very arrogant to assume that as soon as we can rationalize the world beyond the point of requiring religious dramatizations to explain it, we're ready to dispense with the entire structure upon which we've built our values because there's a much higher chance things will become worse than better.

>>12577658
atheists don't want to entirely throw the baby out with the bathwater, they just want to replace the worship of god with the worship of state or the worship of celebrity/hero figures. religion is here to stay.

>>12579286
What even are you?

Religion is a jewish psy-op designed to keep you cucked.

>>12577584
Haha okay retard

>>12577625

It's neat that all 3 of those things are still useful

>>12577584
>why can't this immaterial all powerful god show himself rationally to humanity?
why should he?

>>12577861
This

>>12577584
Yikes! Who hurt you?

>>12577674
You've undermined your own position.

>>12577584
>"why can't this immaterial all powerful god show himself rationally to humanity?"

That's not what He prefers to do. But if you're fortunate, every now and then He'll show himself to you.

>>12577584
I no longer care about these endless religion debates. It is liberating.

>>12577736
The laws of causality and logic must apply to the universe at all times tho. The universe fundamentally isn't disordered, it just looks weird from what we can see from earth.

Why wouldn't the begging of the universe have laws that apply as strongly to it? If there were no laws of physics why would matter exist or anything exist?

>>12577584
>Daily reminder that there is absolutely no reason to believe in any religion
But that's what makes it fun

>>12577584
not cozy

>>12577861
>all powerful God
>free will

pick one

>>12577625
YIKES
I
K
S

>>12577584

holy fucking based. Good job raising all these jimmies, anon

t. misotheist anon who sometimes posts here

>>12579402

Do not presume to tell me what I want. If I could live in a world in which no one venerated any of those things, and furthermore without any depraved unintended consequences, I would do it.

>>12577861
Says who?

>>12577736
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 KJV]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Rom 10:9-13)

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 ESV]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:16)