/lit/ - Literature

>>12551487
Most important literature is written by white men. There, I said it. Students in Swansea have more to learn from Shakespeare and Milton than N'gombo Nu'gmboe.

Who gives a shit? You will never go to 'literally-who' university, nevermind study English there. They can offer whatever rubbish course they want. Howabout making a thread on a book instead of whinging over nothing?

>>12551499
Wow that's kinda racist sweetie, you do realize that it's 2019 right?

>>12551501
Because it's a sign of the times virgin.

>>12551501
>who gives a shit? you will never use those handful of cells on your liver that are turning cancerous. let them multiply at whatever rate they want. the rest of your body is perfectly fine

>>12551510
One of the favorite tactics of SJW supporters is saying "by criticizing them you are making them stronger. They are powerless, ignore them and they will go away".

It's so strange to hear people openly, unashamedly attacking "white males" and doing what they can to make sure they are sidelined and forgotten.

Imagine going to Japan and telling the Japanese that reading books by "dead Japanese guys from 100 years ago" was an inherently wrong thing to do. They wouldn't understand your argument, as they recognize that Japan is for Japanese people, and that each generation learns from their predecessors.

What we are witnessing is the replacement of one people with another, nothing less.

>>12551499
>Most important literature
Most important western literature

>written by white men
Well obviously since it's western literature

back to your containment site /pol/tards

>>12551542
Which is studied at a western institution in a western country of a long-standing western tradition?
It wouldn't make much sense to force middle eastern universities to reject their cultural heritage in favour of someone else's, on the sole basis that it is middle eastern, would it?

>>12551556
why not? there are more ethnics there and are moving there every day

makes sense for the demographic

>>12551537
Good post

>>12551487
i like the classics but just as these kids could never articulate why something should be "decolonized" in the first place, you probably cant come up with a convincing argument for why we should be teaching classics in the first place.

"liberal arts" education is dead. people go to university now because theyre pressured to have universities degrees in order to have "skills," not because its a requirement for being a citizen or part of an intellectual elite. so the only people who are going to care about literature as a field of study are those who see a future and a career in it, and if they are going that path then knowing contemporary writers of whatever is the ethnicity du jour is probably pretty important since that is what is current.

like i hate woke liberal bullshit like this too but the reason for it is more complex than you might think.

>>12551537
Why is that bad though? Surely you resist it because you don't want to be replaced, but empires always fall, white people will never always be in power. It's the way the world is.

>>12551556
I wasn't arguing a point necessarily. Just pointing out that "most important literature" in this case is simply what's considered western literature.

But if I were to throw in my opinion, I think there are mostly only positives in also studying non white male writers. Of course, I'm not arguing replacement of great white male writers. That's ludicrous. But studying good writers of different cultures and demographics can only enrich the our perspective, empathy, and creativity.

>>12551521
This is a Dylan Thomas thread, caring about your liver should be abandoned

>>12551599
>like i hate woke liberal bullshit like this too but the reason for it is more complex than you might think.
What is your view of the reason for it?

I doubt it is that complex, personally. It is essentially an exercise in scapegoating someone else (white people, men, etc.) when you don't personally measure up in brutal darwinian markets.

In essence it is driven by feelings of inadequacy. It results in the dissolution of meritocratic and hierarchical ideals, and replaces them with power grabs and rent seeking.

>>12551499
>contemporary white male writers
>Stephen King
>David Mitchell
>Ian McEwan
>Jeffrey Eugenides
>Jonathan Franzen
>all snooze worthy at best

>contemporary PoC and female writers
>Elena Ferrante
>Roberto Bolaño
>Marlon James
>Donna Tartt
>Junot Diaz
>Kazho Ishiguro
>Chimichanga Adichie
>Zadie Smith
>César Aira
>Hassan Blasim
>Horacio Castellanos Moya
>Emily St. John Mandel
>they're all fucking god-tier

Yup, I'm thinking its over for white men. LMAO

>>12551599
Hundreds of thousands of books are published every year. 99.9% of them are trash. Time is the great winnower. When these people talked about decolonised literature they mean some low quality garbage published in the last 20 years because it was written by a brown person, i.e. not even pretending to select literature based on quality, merely authorial identity. Notice that 'dead' is a perjorative.

Another one from The Guardian today:

>"The selection of books “capture the spirit of the age”, said Swinn. “Among their many notable qualities is a readiness to take risks with form. Many of these books, while not always being thrillers, had the quality of a thriller, and along with a consistently high literary quality these books managed to grab and maintain a high level of interest from go to whoa.”"

>"Swinn also expressed a desire from the judging panel for “more representations of otherness and diversity from publishers; narratives from outside Australia, from and featuring women of colour, LGBTQIA stories, Indigenous stories, more subversion, more difference”."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/07/stella-prize-2019-gail-jones-bri-lee-and-chloe-hooper-make-thrilling-longlist

Definitely need more subversion in Western culture, am I right lads?

>>12551642
>i.e. not even pretending to select literature based on quality, merely authorial identity.

that you say this proves me right. we never taught literature based on "quality" because quality was always arbitrary and some of the books in the canon rebelled against mores of quality anyway.

this has always been a moral question. the classics were taught for moral reasons.

>>12551599
>i like the classics but just as these kids could never articulate why something should be "decolonized" in the first place, you probably cant come up with a convincing argument for why we should be teaching classics in the first place.
This is also my problem with the kneejerk reaction to SJW kneejerk reactions. I don't think Sean Hannity really gives a fuck about Western civilization. It is a shame, though, because really these students are harming themselves. You read to expand your world, not to have it confirmed to you. Reading the classics definitely shook me up a fuckton.

>>12551487

This is why people don't respect humanities

>>12551487
>a full cohort come and sign up for the course
Bullshit did they.

>>12551603
Fuck off you spastic nigger brainlet. Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

NO MORE DEAD COPS

>>12551676
Classics were taught because of their outsized influence on the development of future literature. What morality does Don Quixote teach? It's an inflection point in the history of literature, and if you're a student of literature you should be aware of that. I don't believe it has anything to do with 'morality', and I don't think you believe that either.

>>12551690
Uh oh the incel broke again

>>12551680
>Reading the classics definitely shook me up a fuckton.

agreed. its an interesting irony -- the literature of revolt that wanted to shock and destroy white bourgeois values is now the bourgeois, but without the white bourgeois the shit has no purpose. so now were stuck in this weird cycle where institutions are basically flagellating themselves for being racist, white bourgeois as a type of public performance while simultaneously also gobbling up more resources and securing their power.

>>12551487
'The Iron Curtain did not reach the ground and under it flowed liquid manure from the West.'

>>12551685
It's probably true. I studied humanities and was a naive, angry leftie in my first years of uni.

>>12551499
And this will remain the case. What these fools don't realise is that academic white men have destroyed literature, and it is only through this void that POClit is able to take its place. Now they will suffer the extra embarrassment of being an academic pseudo-underclass. It's all just a mess.
The real lit of our age will be from unknowns, non-academics who are mostly white men or mixed race searching for an identity.

>>12551641
Bolaño and Aira are white as shit. This is your mind on retarted Burger race classifications

>>12551487
>>12551663
The Guardian is partially responsible, along with its opposites, The Daily Mail and Fox News, for the political turmoil that we now find ourselves in. When society inevitably falls apart every Guardian editor and contributor should be lined up against and shot along with all other contributors to similar propaganda outfits right or left.

>>12551697
>What morality does Don Quixote teach?

nah thats too shallow of an interpretation of what i said. the reason for teaching it is moral, not the books themselves. the idea has always been that you become a better person, that it builds virtue, etc. this is why school kids were also forced to learn literature.

but because school is shifting away from a moral argument and becoming about "skills" and "marketplace value" instead, that old idea of needing to learn liberal arts to become a civic-minded person with virtue becomes meaningless.

>>12551663
https://youtu.be/NMKB-S6IB2w

>>12551708
I can envisage a lot of them signing up, perhaps even most of them. The whole cohort though? Every single one? Horseshit.

>>12551599
>"liberal arts" education is dead.
this. the idea of a well-rounded education ends with compulsory schooling now, and you could argue that kids don't even get that anymore.

>>12551487
>>12551510
>>12551542
>>12551546
>>12551561
>>12551603
>>12551641
>>12551698

>>12551722
They glow, you may want to be careful what you say.

>>12551711
Have you read Wesley Yang? He's an Asian man, sort of post-left, who's become increasingly critical of the new wave of identity politics. His Twitter is a delight.

>>12551714
This. Burger, however, deserves to be its own distinct race at this point.

The Guardian this month:

>Opera'a ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/jan/28/preserved-in-aspic-opera-embarks-on-diversity-drive

>Publishing's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jan/16/publishers-failing-to-improve-racial-and-regional-diversity-survey-finds

>Travel TV show's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/feb/03/africa-with-ade-adepitan-review-diverse-bbc-travel-programme-moving

>University's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/feb/01/uk-universities-lose-league-table-positions-diversity-failures

>UK workforce hiring's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/17/minority-ethnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

>The UK prison system's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/29/more-than-half-young-people-jail-are-of-bme-background

>UK police's ethnic diversity problem
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/19/met-police-race-pay-gap-widens

>>12551724
>this is why school kids were also forced to learn literature.
Thinking about it, highschool is genuinely the place where literature is taught for moral propaganda purposes. I don't think I read a single book during school that wasn't a morality tale first and foremost.
>the reason for teaching it is moral, not the books themselves. the idea has always been that you become a better person, that it builds virtue, etc
Might as well say that learning anything is about morality and that there is no purpose to reading but virtue signalling.
Better to wallow in ignorance than fall for that!

>>12551736
>OMG a non-white is actually arguing against identity politics! Awesome! So woke!
It’s ironic that liberals don’t notice the way they demean non-whites and applaud them like a dog performing a trick when they do the most basic thing expected on a white person.

>>12551722
>get rid of current journalists
>leftist ideology still has strangle hold in academia influencing psychologists, future journalists, future policy makers, future public intellectuals, pretty much everyone that has to work post-college

You sure solved that problem.

>>12551736
Had not heard of him, but will take a look. No doubt this will become more common as the real problem is the democratic/capitalist undermining of identity, and all of the identitarians seeking to replace whites will only lose their own identity in the end - ironically following in the footsteps of those they despised.
This among more visceral reactions to identity conflicts.

>>12551736
>check out this BASED asian guy

>>12551730
They don't because a well rounded education cannot take place unless it is started in the home first and most parents can't be bothered.

Combine that with large class sizes, poorly educated teachers and the ideological shift towards a consumerist and materialistic view of education means a well rounded education is literally impossible, outside select private and grammar schools, home schooling or autodidactism.

>>12551747
>>12551749
He's a good writer, guys. He also has an excellent essay on Cho.

>reddit getting triggered
Why do you care what gets taught at universities? 99.9% of the population do not, have not, ever cared about literature. The purpose of university is not to preserve literature. If you want to read it you can. Nobody stopping you.
Serious literature will always be a interest for a tiny minority of aesthetes, like baroque fugues or Medieval tempera altarpieces.

>>12551767
Somehow the most ignorant statement made in this thread

>>12551537
>British
>White

>>12551487
im all for this the universities must burn

>>12551745
but /lit/ lefties keep telling me these types of things don't exist

>>12551767
why do you care that female genital mutilation is rapidly increasing in your modern progressive society? 90.9% of the population do not, have not, ever done female genital mutilation. if you don't want to practise female genital mutilation then no one is forcing you.

>>12551745
Lads, what is there to do at this point? I'm not joking

>>12551537
sounds good except the japs are not breeding either

>>12551641
>Roberto Bolaño
>black
maybe the hair i guess

>>12551641
>Horacio Castellanos Moya
>black
not even the hair

>>12551599

>like i hate woke liberal bullshit like this too but the reason for it is more complex than you might think.

I too, am a gentleman and a scholar.

>>12551801
Prepare for the final breach.

>>12551801
Read SIEGE

>>12551801
Personally I'm feeling more and more tempted to become very selfish, hoard as much money as I can and then live on the periphery of society working as few hours as possible while watching the downfall. In my opinion the class system in Britain has been a major contributor to the ethnic downfall, partly as a result of guilt-ridden upper class individuals working in journalism, television commissioning etc trying to "atone" for their sin of having everything handed to them by taking it out on the white working class, who they both identify with (ethnically) and loathe.

>>12551803
>Japan's hyper-dense, huge population will decline a little from its post-war fertility sperg out

Oh no, but muh Tokyo capsule apartments, m-muh train ramming, muh sprawling urban landscapes.

I luckily just missed the identitarian trend while I was in Uni, but grievance studies were getting more popular by the year.

Anyone enrolled in a humanities course (preferably a Mickey Mouse one, no offence, where grievance studies are more likely to be tangential) post 2012/13? Care to share your experience insofar as identitarian pop-politics go? Goes without saying that American and British Unis are the target of my question here.

>>12551714
>>12551810
>>12551814
South Americans are PoCs.

>>12551734
>They glow,
What does this mean?

>>12551748
Oh the academics will be dealt with. But the journalists are the ones who are disseminating this shit to the public. They are the ones who are actively shaping the cultural narrative and they are the ones who have the face the majority of the blame and the majority of the punishment.

>>12551745
I rest my case.

>>12551801
>One newspaper is ideologically charged
>Dude it's all over
Literally nothing will happen. Liberal capitalism is the universal solvent of ideology.

>>12551827
only to retarded amerimutts

>>12551826
Same here. Looking back there was a lot of it there, but I was too naive and apathetic to really care. I read my old university's student online newspaper recently and it was all ethnic diversity, rape culture, patriarchy, offence, mental health, trans stuff etc. Really weird to see.

>>12551829
>Oh the academics will be dealt with. But the journalists are the ones who are disseminating this shit to the public.
they are all part of the Cathedral

>>12551835
It's a yuge newspapers read by and representing the opinions of millions. The guardian is as mainstream as it gets, and the direction it's been following for the last decade is harrowing

>>12551835
>one newspaper

Are you wilfully ignorant or just ignorant by nature?

>>12551835
Probably the most influential news outlet in the UK among the middle classes. It reflects and emboldens the opinions of a lot of people.

>>12551829
The journalists themselves are often just peddlers, there to appease advertisers and editors. Just look at the recent LRB article by a senior BBC journalist:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n24/owen-bennett-jones/cant-afford-to-tell-the-truth

The good news is that The Guardian is losing a ton of money each year, and the recent begging campaign to readers is unlikely to change that.

>>12551801
complete abandon ethics and make as much money as possible, build a large family, buy shelter across the world, establish an ethnic religion.

>>12551487
wow, a whole OPTIONAL module that’ll be dropped after the first year because only about 10 students actually took it, the end is nigh!

>>12551826
I've had to take a few humanities courses because of the requirements at my school. Before thos i thought the right wing sperging about college professors being propagandists was bullshit, but it really is not. These people are useless and desu deserve alot of the hate they get. They are all mostly white, mostly upper middle class, the type of people that can afford to take a gap year to travel europe and "find themselves", and yet they inject their retarded political opinions about oppression and minorities and racism and bla bla bla and sound stupid because they obviously dont know what they're talking about, they think spending time in an institution is a substitute for living this existence for real. Also they are purposefully dishonest about things they are supposed to be teaching in order to further this deluded concept of shaping future generations along the "right path". Im not a violent person and i love everyone forever and im very far from a right winger, but these people, journalists, politicians, and bankers need to all be gassed

>>12551599
Why even bother writing this post when you obviously don’t know the first thing about literature? Especially literature at degree-level? Please, oh please, do tell what your arguments against teaching the classics are. You’re an absolute bottom-feeder and an imbecile, and you should be banned for this post.

>>12551842
Yup, same. I remember taking a 'postmodern culture' module (or something along those lines) and the only accessible way in which a group politically illiterate half-wits could interact with Baudrillard, Derrida, Foucault and company was exclusively through the lens of identity pop-politics (not that I feel like there are many serious ways to interact with such a curriculum, but there is more to the postmodern boogeymen than id politics). But I still think it was a bottom-up phenomenon. The 'woke industry' made it so that wokeness was valuable currency for kids just entering their twenties. And then there were the young lecturers who had their ears closest to the actual promoters of wokeness around that time. Still, nowhere near what campus culture seems to have become since I left...

>>12551826
Final year of philosophy right now. It depends on the course. Courses in ethics and social/political philosophy has a lot of it, not so much because of course content, but because grad students or undergrads often argue their "woke" opinions with anyone they can. Historical philosophy has very little. They may cover generic, "women philosophers in this philosophical period" but it will be one lecture with very little in the way of the worst excesses of SJWs. Surprisingly, the worst SJW I had was an analytic philosopher in a third year course on analytic metaphysics (mostly on the metaphysics of time) who would not shut the fuck up about Trump and white men. And the also other surprising one was the continental courses I took where one was completely devoid of any identity politics content at all (it was all on the philosophical history and theory of the emotions and affect covering the Greeks, early moderns like Spinoza, then post-Kantian German romantics, right up to Deleuze). I've hear bad things from friends who take courses in other departments, especially sociology, history, literature, etc. who seem to raid philosophy solely for the social and political philosophy from the 20th C. and ignore all the interesting stuff.

>>12551826
Took one about the development of different types of music in America. There were some identity politics, but the professor kept most of it rooted in marxism.

>>12551872
i'm sure this decision won't happen or influence anything else ever again

>>12551835

>Liberal capitalism is the universal solvent of ideology.

My gott

>>12551487
When are you retards going to realise that pushes for ‘diversity’ are entirely a fad and that nobody actually gives a fuck. It’s profitable at the moment, but like with everything, it will swing the other way soon enough. In ten years, none of this will be relevant.

>>12551826
Continental Europe and the Americas as a whole are victim of the same disease, anon. Ultra-lefty politics are being pushed everywhere in the Western world. The worst is that the propaganda that is being spread doesn't alarm anyone because mainstream opinion is in line with it - that is, the obvious political agenda embedded in the courses and universities serves mostly to cement existing, but often inchoate, thinking, to restrict the scope of what is acceptable discourse, and marginalize and demonize opposing thought

>>12551873
I can imagine. Did it ever get to a point where it affected your social life because you didn't align yourself with those views? I imagine not being in humanities, you had your own social oasis of people who were isolated from that trend, but do you think it would have been hard for someone not buying it to survive with id-pol humanities peers?

>>12551892
>When are you retards going to realise that pushes for ‘diversity’ are entirely a fad and that nobody actually gives a fuck.
are you from the past?

>>12551884
Hmm, so it's still fairly easy to isolate yourself from it, both socially and academically in your estimation?

>>12551899
No he's from the future

>>12551892
>don't worry when all the zoomers begin to settle down and then realise their significant other has a detachable penis it will all work itself out

>>12551487
YAAAAAAAAAS

>>12551826
2nd year Literature and Philosophy at a prestigious UK institute and the only identity-based study is a) limited to literature, and is b) all talk. We focus on the Canon, and with little deviation. Occasionally we’ll study a few women authors that have obviously only been included for diversity’s sake, but even then these authors aren’t bad by any measure. Any further gender or race-based study is almost entirely optional, and is never something we’re asked to be assessed on. In my Phil courses, there is absolutely no identity-based study.

>>12551887
As >>12551892 said, maybe one or two second-rate unis will add a ‘Decolonising the Canon’ module, but once the uptake on these modules falls to zero because most students don’t give a fuck about identity politics (despite what Buzzfeed and Breitbart might have you believe) they’ll be dropped faster than you can say ‘Shakespeare was illiterate and Hamlet was written by his black house-servant Carlton’.

>>12551883
It's so cringeworthy. I know several privately educated people from wealthy families, who then went on to Oxbridge then to London to find jobs thanks largely due to nepotism, and they are all highly "woke" people who love racial diversity, feminism etc, yet live as though they are still in the Edwardian era. Wokeness in my experience is a gross mixture of resentment and faux-guilt, whose ultimate aim is to attract praise, attention and success to either the resentful non-white or the traitorous, upper-middle class white. Add nu-socialism to the mix and you end up with a country which has gone from being 0.5% non-white in the 1950s to 20%+ non-white in 2020.

>>12551899
Are you? if you are, don’t you remember the 80s and 90s, where PC culture was even more pervasive despite not having an internet soapbox?

>>12551892
See
>>12551537

There is no turning back.

Birmingham was just declared a "majority minority" city.

A senior councillor in Nottingham just said that the city becoming "majority minority" was a question of "when, not if", with the change expected within the next decade.

It is over.

>>12551898
Not that anon, but yes and no. If you want to be discreet about it, yes, but I don't believe in that. I'm at university, what better place is there to voice my opinion if I feel I have something worthwhile to say? And when I do so, the reaction is without a doubt negative and hostile - from the students, not the teacher. Mind you, I take care of my wording and I'm very mild compared to what you read on 4chan - if you were to clearly state you are against multiculturalism, against immigration on principle, against the European project, against the representation of Islamic parties in our politics, etc., you would be completely ostracized

>>12551911
Good to hear. The 'prestigious' qualifier is probably the explanation. Any guesstimation of how far your experience would go down the list of non-red brick Unis?

>>12551913
I don’t understand how people can recognise that ‘wokeness’ is built upon hypocrisy and that it’s biggest defenders are actually the biggest enforcers of modern racism. When you realise that, you begin to understand that the entire movement is built on shifting sands. Everyone hates these people (even the minorities they aim to represent hate them) and as the people are squeezed harder, this ‘woke’ facade will be the first thing to go.

>>12551892
It's value isn't just as a fad and for money, numbnuts. It's about power. It gives an easy way to control people and make them shut the fuck up. It's honestly hilarious how leftists on /lit/ can say they read things like Foucault, yet can't see the kind of strategic power plays with knowledge that these kind of discourses bring.

Also, much of this has also been around since at least the 90s with the so-called "culture wars", and possibly even going as far back as the 60s.

>>12551884
so what are your own political views? Conservative?

>>12551928
I used to think that the minorities aren't buying into the white minority-pet culture, but I think I was being to hopeful. There is a woke industry that cynical minority profiteers are peddling, whereby 'non-whiteness' is the central identity there are white allies and enemies. Sure, these are also the people whose voices are likely to be the loudest in online sphere so it's pretty hard to gauge what the numbers really are like.

>>12551917
You realise that most of those immigrants arriving following 2001 were Eastern Euros, ergo ‘white’, following countries like Poland, Latvia and the Czech Republic joining the EU in 2004? As much as you want to frame this as some sort of ‘brown-people-apocalypse’, a huge amount of these immigrants are overwhelmingly not brown. Furthermore, to believe that the demographics of a country can’t change once established is completely stupid. Following the signing of A50, a large amount of these EU migrants will likely dissipate anyway and your precious percentages will go back to a more acceptable level.

Never forget.

>>12551892
>implying there's a comfy "normal" where we will all just go back and nothing really matters or changes because things will fix themselves if you stop paying attention

>>12551923
I’d say that as soon as you leave the Russel groups you’ll start to see it infesting more and more unis, as they try to appeal to what they see to be a current academic trend. Obviously, they can’t rely on their prestigiousness to attract students, I’d argue that following the ‘woke’ trend is the way a lot of second-rate institutions will go, at least for now.

>>12551940
Yeah nah, fertility rates of Estonians et al. are low, their long-term impact negligible. It isn't Estonians who are breeding like flies.

Pic related.

>>12551916
i don't remember many talks about gender transitioning kids or killing recently born babbys in the 90s, but maybe i just wasn't cool enough

>>12551745
Who gives a shit

>>12551911
>As >>12551892 said, maybe one or two second-rate unis will add a ‘Decolonising the Canon’ module, but once the uptake on these modules falls to zero because most students don’t give a fuck about identity politics (despite what Buzzfeed and Breitbart might have you believe) they’ll be dropped faster than you can say ‘Shakespeare was illiterate and Hamlet was written by his black house-servant Carlton’.
so all major universities and publications are doing it, but it will somehow "go back to normal" if we stop paying attention to it

ok, i guess i don't see how, but you may be right

>>12551917
And yet you're still here...
No whites have been genocided...

>>12551958
>just stick your head in the sand

>>12551937
Most minorities are working-class and don’t have time to frame the white man for everything. On the contrary, a lot of ethnic minorities I’ve found are actually incredibly friendly to white people and a huge chunk more respectful than white people are to other white people. I think Britain has a far bigger issue with class than it does with race, and the sooner we realise that the better. That’s what angers me about rags like The Guardian, which draw lines of division in society by framing the white working-class as ‘evil’ whilst venerating minorities, all the while employing overwhelmingly white upper-middle class students as writers.

>>12551965
Literally not the point. There's no need of battlefields when the war is taking place in maternity wards.

>>12551928
>it’s biggest defenders are actually the biggest enforcers of modern racism
democrats are the real transphobes

>>12551969
There isn't much wealth disparity between white people and sikhs, hindus. Muslims are very poor however.

>>12551641
>contemporary fiction

>>12551972
Liberals actually dumb their speech down when talking to niggers, so his point is valid.

>>12551949
Education sure is a business for second-rate institutions, that's for sure. I've been pretty far from the political pulse of Brits lately, but how likely is it that people would support a reform by which certain Mickey Mouse courses (id-pol, or not) would prevent an institution's access to state subsidies? Goes without saying that its promoters would have to be competent and clean - no association with the alarmist types who either want to see Unis run as an Amish compound, or simply a training ground for various industries.

>>12551928
>Everyone hates these people (even the minorities they aim to represent hate them) and as the people are squeezed harder, this ‘woke’ facade will be the first thing to go.
i agree that they will disappear, but their whole project is to destroy the "normal", so when they disappear there will be no "normal" to go back, just a bunch of groups with their own interests grabbing as much of the cake as they can

>>12551955
It’d be interesting to actually look at the size of these population samples. I mean, it’s pretty obvious that inner-city schools are going to have higher concentrations of ethnic minority children, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the UK is going to be Little Africa in 20 years time.

>>12551767
>>12551835
>>12551872
>>12551892
>>12551916
>>12551940
>>12551965

Deflection force out in droves today

>>12551933

I used to be a socialist with some sympathies towards anarchism. I am now an ethnic-localist, which doesn't mean white supremacist. It means I think a functional society needs social cohesion, and left wing, liberal, and capitalist ideologies do not give this. Given all the data on multiculturalism and how it disrupts social trust, and how social trust is key for a large amounts of societal functioning (economical, political, judicial), there is no way to build any sort of solidarity that the left wing (especially economically-focused left) wants. Now overlay any sort of "woke" leftist style identity politics where social justice takes priority over economic justice, and you have a recipe for future civil strife, i.e. both descriptive societal breakdown (decay of social trust from multiculturalism), with prescriptive societal breakdown (leftists, liberals, and capitalists playing off the social tensions and increasing mass immigration). You cannot build a working left wing from such conditions. There is no comradeship when everyone -- men vs women, blacks vs whites, gays vs straights -- is at each other's throats. What you can do is build islands in the storm, then help others if you so wish.

>>12551487
Why not just teach them pre mordern Eastern and Middle Eastern literature?

>>12551937
minorities are voting aligned to their interests though, no muslim is buying into the left's project, but it's clear that the left will allow them to grab more power, so it's rational for them to vote left

just like blacks may not buy into the democrat's moral values, but upper class blacks will get "affirmative accion'd" into elite institutions, and then they'll sell the story to lower class blacks to vote democrat, as that's in their interest. No amount of republican "based black man" candidates will change that

>>12551981
What do you mean the size of the population samples? Statistics speak for themselves. And no, 20 years is still a bit soon. But even in 2011 only 64% of babies born in the UK were White British, and this will soon be a minority given observed trends.

>>12551892
>it's just a fad
Why do people lie about this phenomenon?

Stop trying to minimize it. It is the dominant form of divide and rule tactic deployed by the most powerful institutions on the planet - from academia to government to corporations to media.

If you don't take this shit seriously as a threat to - if nothing else - meaningful forms of solidarity and political organization, then it has already defeated you.

>>12551983
Lol someones amgry ;)

>>12551895
nah desu nearly everyone i met sort of buys into some of idpol but still even they see college professors are bullshit. it dosnt affect my social life cause i dont really care that much and dont get into those kinds of discussions. interestingly most people i know from high school that didnt go to college seem more "real" in a way.

>>12551977
doesn't mean it's not in the interests of blacks to vote democrat even if they don't actually like them as much as they say they do

>>12551978
I’d say that’s not even necessary at this point. Second-rate ex-polytechnics are one the way out as institutions. Degrees are worthless thanks to them, because now every kid schooled under a Blair government had to go and get one, no matter where from. I think you’ll see over the next decade that lots of shit institutions will be closing their doors as students wake up to the fact that it’s not worth paying 9 grand a year for a worthless degree. The government are already expanding apprenticeship programs to get more kids into work, rather than wasting years doing jumped-up uni courses. As unis start to lose money, these poxy gender courses will be the first out the window, I guarantee.

>>12551984
Localism is great, but it's of course quite weak and essentially a form of neoliberal autism observed among atomized urban dwellers etc. Look at the Gaelic language, which has "countered" the domination of the English language in Ireland by becoming highly localized, slowly retreating to remote coastal areas where the language will soon die off. That's what I believe will happen to the White British population. We'll become about as relevant any other minority demographic, e.g. the gays, the disabled. Free market demographics has ruined Western society.

>>12551992
I just mean it’s useless to judge demographic change on the percentage of black kids in a sample size of, say, 1000 kids.

>>12551972
>implying transphobia is real
Being disgusted by feces isn't 'coprophobia' either.

>>12551993
just ignore the capitalists, it's just a fad, money will magically self-redistribute itself if you ignore them enough!

>>12551993
reject reactionary conservatism as a form of opposition. accept acceleration.

>Why are people proud that Shakespeare is an Englishman? They’re proud that he’s an Englishman whether they’ve opened any of his plays whatsoever at school when they were forced to do them, because he’s felt to embody a national consciousness, and he’s felt to speak for many who didn’t speak, and who couldn’t speak. And a people are proud that they have somebody like him in their national trajectory, whether they’re interested in his work or not.

>Self-pride is very emblematic of an ethnic sense of purpose and also a joie-de-vivre in relation to this life. If you strip that out and take it away from people, they lose something, they lose spirit. They become morbid and depressed. Everyone needs great cultural icons, whether they’re interested in them or not. They are part of the fabric that gives an individual life some sort of meaning.

This is just a bougie tactic to infect their ranks with le ebic minorities so it makes lefty types more hesitant to decry this shit. So thats why tue rights voice is bigger than ever. Reminder that the revolution will be anti-"intellectual" by nature.

>>12551993
Please, it’s driven by profit and profit alone. As much as you want to deny it, it’s capitalism that drives the ‘woke’ trend.

>>12552010
1000 is a significant sample size

>>12552011
that was not the point

>>12552019
>Reminder that the revolution will be anti-"intellectual" by nature.
so the revolution is just a chimpout and a grab for power for whoever is well positioned at that moment, nice

>>12552033
historically that's exactly what revolutions were yeah

>>12552025
Not for populations, you can’t extrapolate out a sample taken in Manchester to the rest of the country.

>>12552033
when have they ever not been that

revolutions are only intellectualised after they’ve happened

>>12551641
>Emily St. John Mandel, Donna tart
Honest question are these SJW niggers actually trolls? I don't remember anyone this retarded on 4chan until recently.

>>12552010
Oh right, well the graph you're referring to is of the whole electoral region, with Manchester meaning City of Manchester rather than Greater Manchester.

Example:

>"Fewer than two out of five primary school pupils in Birmingham are white, new data shows."

>"Some 35.7 per cent of pupils, or 32,437, were classed as Asian."

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/revealed-ethnic-make-up-birmingham-12504428

>>12552038
>>12552044
i know, but usually the people pushing for them like to pretend there's actually more substance to it

>>12552023
its true. everyone points to the gilette ad as of late as a sign of western decline, but that was in reality a way to sell razors to fags and get more exposure

>>12552033
intellectuals, much like journalists and academics, are the equivalent of an ideological weapon

it makes sense in war to take away your enemies' weapons of war

>>12552023
Why are so many socialists pushing it then? In my personal experience, the further left-leaning a person I know is, the more likely they are to loathe white people and treat any minority group as a potential Epic Win for socialism by "giving them a voice" etc

>>12552056
but who are ""you"" if you have no intellectual content or project? just angry retards for whatever reason?

>>12552023
The woke trend started in the university system. The ideas came from there.

>>12552058
>Socialists funded by billionaires are actually neo-liberal
Huge surprise!

>>12552005
I can only hope your calculations are correct. But I think it's either going to take a whole lot longer than that, or the Mickey Mouse bankruptcy isn't going to take place at all. Making up grievance studies courses is profitable for pretty much everyone (but the tax payers), short-term. And I don't see enrolment numbers going down significantly. Also, the 9 grand isn't really that much considering the almost-no-interest rate at which they're expected to pay it back. Couple that with being exempt from paying it back if you don't land a job with a significant income and the 9k moans become nothing but recreational faux-self-pity. On top of that, consider the fact that in the future, economies of developed countries will be increasingly relying upon products and services whereby subjective value reigns supreme. So a degree in grievance studies might pays when working for an id-pol publication, or making an 'ethnically conscious' key ring. These are all speculations of course, but I don't share your optimism for the time it will take for Unis to cleanse themselves with no direct external influence.

>>12552058
>the more likely they are to loathe white people and treat any minority group as a potential Epic Win for socialism by "giving them a voice" etc
that's because the left knows it can't brainwash white workers, but they still believe they can brainwash brown workers

it won't work because it turns out brown workers are actual people with their own projects and legacies to carry and not just raw material for revolution, but leftism has never been about paying attention to reality so whatever

>>12552062

>>12552065
Its so obvious if those in power are pushing this shit why would brown people ever shoot the crap dice for some kind of obscure socialist project? In there own countries it makes sense since these places are shitshows to begin with. In the west though? I doubt it

I thought we were all the same.

>>12552079
i just wanted to play videogames

>>12552079
We basically all are, except with Jews being a little better :)

>>12551641
>Elena Ferrante
>PoC or female
Wrong.

>>12551984
This sounds close to my beliefs. I remember Dennis Potter speaking about his hope that the television and radio would be able to create common culture and through that consensus and through that community and harmony. In a globalized post internet world this seems impossible. A nation without consensus isn't a nation at all - rather a large arbitrarily defined lump of rock that a whole bunch of disparate peoples happen to live on and must take extra care not to bump into one another.

Britain is no longer a nation. Perhaps it never was. England is no longer a nation too. What bound us together is gone. I don't know if it can be found again.

I don't know what I would call myself. Economically I'm quite left but socially and culturally quite conservative. A High Tory/Red Tory maybe? Distributism and Communitarianism interest me.

>some people I've never met are choosing not to read a book that I myself have chosen not to read
>Western civ is doomed

>>12552101
The Big Other must do the reading for me that I cannot do myself.

THERE IS NO ENGLAND.

I can't stress this enough. No such thing. There is only socio-economic class. Beyond reactive patriotic gesture, Britain does not exist. Hence the Rotherham scandal. Hence ethnic replacement. The British upper class literally don't care what happens to you if you aren't of use to them. You're just a serf. A coolie. A Tom. Beyond taking the time to categorize you according to parodic stereotype, they want nothing to do with you thank you very much.

>>12552101
Learn to see posts like these for what they truly are, anons.

>>12552047
>>12551917
I'm from Birmingham and I can confirm it is lost. No great loss I suppose, it's been a wasteland for a century.

I'm half Persian though so I guess I'm part of the problem.

>>12551641
>Elena Ferrante
is a pseudonym, and more than likely a fat, homosexual white man
>Roberto Bolaño
was white. was influenced by: other white hispanic writers such as borges and marias. kafka, toole, wittgenstein
>Marlon James
influences: o henry, shakespeare, coleridge
>Donna Tartt
influences: dickens, orwell, salinger, stevenson
>Junot Diaz
is a shitskinned rapist who writes like a nancy
>Kazuo Ishiguro
influences/favorites: proust, dostoyevsky
>Chimichanga Adichie
is a deep-fried burrito
>Zadie Smith
half breed. influences: dickens, kafka, nabokov. bleached by dfw
>César Aira
influenced by french surrealists. is white
>Hassan Blasim
influences: kafka, carver. "writer"
>Horacio Moya
influences: bernhard, flaubert, kundera
>Emily Mandel
greatest influence: treasure island by stevenson. crazy eyes. cute mouth. would fuck
g-gee seems to be a pattern here.

>>12552119
Let me guess, non-white father and white mother?

>>12551940
Most of them are brown though.

>>12551984
>What you can do is build islands in the storm, then help others if you so wish.
pic related

>>12552125
Rod Dreher is so outstandingly camp. Should be a queer icon.

>>12551931
It seemed to go away in 2000's. People who moaned about representation were seen as cranks. Now they get daily platforms from the mainstream media.

>>12552106
basically this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NVsyMalJXo

>>12552125
Yes, good goy. Destroy your libido and worship Jesus (the greatest Jew who ever lived!)

>>12552122
How did you ever guess

>>12552131
there's always something weird about mainstream approved christians

>>12552142
do you have a hot sister?

I just don't understand how humanities shifted towards an 'argument' that the author's intent is not important, that you have to count in his race, the race of the characters in the novel, their genders... it's just so much basic sophistry, Greeks would not even consider it. It was an eye opening thing for me to realize that world's best Universities offer education that is of such low quality.

The assault on canon is first and foremost anti-humanistic and segregative.

No fluke here goy

>>12552195
...Y-you don't know me, do you anon?

>>12552199
Yes it's distressing it witness this first-hand. Post-colonialism was the big one when I was studying humanities, orientalism and all that.

>>12552207
Does she have big tits and ass?

>>12552212
>paki

>>12552208
I still can't help but be amazed that these false analogies and satanic panic type of language even gets considered as course material. No wonder then that people who finish Ivy League and Oxbridge can't write, can't reason and are generally useless as thinkers.

>>12552220
No

>>12552226
pls

>>12552212
Paki (south-asian Muslims in general) bitches are kinky as fuck. I would have never guessed it, but every time our fates interlinked, their bedside manner shocked my white boy sensibilities.

>>12552208
>Post-colonialism

What's hilarious about that part of critical theory is that it's the most colonial thing imaginable - judging the world from the cushy surroundings of a first world nation. Imagine explaining dead white men or fragile masculinity to slavic peoples, or relate arundhati roy / kureishi with their 'fellow' shitskins from another side of the world. I'm not trying to disparage people from 2nd and 3rd world countries, it's just that the perspective is so western-centric, and holds so much corporate sensitivity training type of speech that it directly feeds into a certain affluent subset of humans that take on themselves to teach you What Is Right

>>12552205
Really angers me that kids that actually deserve these places but aren’t black inner-city kids, or private-schooled toffs, get completely left by the wayside.

lol

Can you study humanities in the west - let's say literature - without taking any cultural marxist classes?

>>12552099
Dennis Potter is based.

>>12552301
See >>12551911

weird the same people who complain about identity politics also need their white male identity affirmed by institutions more than any ethnic person ive ever met needs theirs

>>12551911
those two "aren't bad" authors are taking valuable time off schedule to learn about masterpieces while in college

>>12552312
so basically no

>>12552023
Please. It has numerous dimensions. Reducing it to capitalism alone is typical thought-stopping Marxist narrative, and it blinds you from the infinite other ways you can think about this stuff.

I don't actually disagree with you, mind you. I think you can make good arguments that identity politics is used to - for instance - create ambiguous moral conflicts and fake revolutionary causes which draw attention to a product or service simply because emotions like anger cause people to use "share" functionality more often. It is in the interests of capitalists to constantly provoke emotional responses in people and make them feel angry and insecure so that they can sell things.

I just think you are stupid if you are limiting yourself to that singular explanation, which doesn't in my mind explain everything that is going on. Various proponents of Marxism and Critical Theory bear a massive amount of responsibility for essentially teaming up with, or being the useful idiot's for, the very capitalist/imperialist forces they claim to criticize and oppose.

>>12552119
please dnn't have kids

>>12552330
college is about building the new ruling class, pandering to minorities is more useful than the classics when it comes to that so universities are adapting

>>12552346
>not telling him to marry a white girl so his kids are bleached
Dummy

>>12552323
that's because your entire experience of said complaints are from niche internet sites and your media bubble

How come people who count white males never count the number of Jews holding positions on power and relate that number to percentage of Jews in the population?

>>12551611
nah dude, most non-whites still shit in the streets, I don't have anything to learn from them

>>12552323
Its not really weird that white people want white writers to be studied in their country's colleges, especially when their writers are head-and-shoulders above what would replace them

>>12552357
Jews are white.

>>12552372
Wrong.

>>12552346
>>12552352
I'm white passing so my kids would be white anyway.

@12552140
Lol

>>12552378
Black people think Jews are whiteness personified.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/anti-semitism/the-hyper-whitening-of-the-jews/

>>12551487
dylan thomas would turn in his grave if he knew about this

>>12552398
The fuck you talking about, he'd probably applaud it. If he were sober enough to even be cognizant.

>>12552323
I don’t know the last time white people forced any changes to have themselves affirmed. Stories of others doing it seems to happen on he weekly.

>>12551827
fuck off nigger

>>12552357
Maybe... maybe they're totally dishonest and only use concepts like privilege as a means of attacking their political enemies, never in the pursuit of actual justice.

No... no, surely not. After all, a lot of movements have claimed absolute moral authority throughout history - the Catholic Church, the supporters of the French revolution, the Russian communist party - and none of them were ever hypocritical or morally corrupt.

>>12552199
In Victorian times literature was judged on whether it contained the correct morally and spiritually uplifting messages, this is just the modern equivalent of that.
Seriously I don't know why you care. You don't have to use that method of approaching a text yourself, you can carry on doing what you do. What is it to you how someone else approaches texts?

>>12552323
The term "white dead male" comes off so swarmy and passive aggressive.
These so called non white intellectuals are being tokenized for being non white, not because of thier thoughts or philosophy.

The idea of representation is a neoliberal illusion which casts the individual as the collective as if forcing diversity into star trek wars actually accomplishes anything of note.

>>12552236
The United States was the first modern post-colonial society. Most people just don't see why this could or should be the logic end result of revolution, a revolt against what was literally the most liberal society in the world at the time who would have probably granted independence if it was just asked for.

how ironic that israel is going to be the only white majority country in the future

"this person is imporant because they are not white"

This is basically what the liberal says.

Not "i read this persons book and they have some great ideas"


The goal of the neoliberal is to absorb the so called marginalized into the capitalist machine

No one ever dissects why capitalism repeatedly calls for diversity. Identity politcs divides people of the same material conditions.

The capitlists seeks to provide a self esteem boost to the shitskin to cast an illusion where they think something has been accomplished. And the capitlist is no longer questioned about economic material conditions

>>12551913
>Wokeness in my experience is a gross mixture of resentment and faux-guilt
Who's resenting who again?

>>12552372
HAHAAHAHAHA

>>12552476
Non-whites resenting whites of course. White beauty, white culture, almost everything identifiably "white" is superior.

>>12552482
>several privately educated people from wealthy families, who then went on to Oxbridge then to London to find jobs thanks largely due to nepotism, and they are all highly "woke" people who love racial diversity, feminism etc, yet live as though they are still in the Edwardian era.
I know your example is prominent, but this describes someone white, but who they are resenting is unclear.

>>12552436
>What is it to you how someone else approaches texts?
Because this ridiculous ideology is seeping into our institutions and culture. It would be different if it were just a handful of radicals at one university, but its everywhere.

>>12552498
He is speaking of the upper class whites and petit bourgoise whites.
Its just that modern retards lack a class conscious and shitskins are easily manipulated by rich white people into thinking white people are the problem, not rich white people.

And pol is easily manipulated into thinking shitkins and le jews are the problem. As if capitlists arent the ones exploiting cheap third world labor in order to make higher profits


Baically you are all idiots and i cant wait to pwn rich people in the global warming apacolpyse

>>12552501
just ignore them, it will magically disappear from all positions of power somehow

>>12552523
why would people with resources have to suffer from any consequences from global warming?

>>12552527
How can you sit by and watch as they destroy enlightenment ideals with only a vague notion that their ideology will disappear "somehow."

>>12552440
>most liberal society in the world

the same society that had a private corporation commit yearly genocide runs in asia? where a great deal of population spent half of their life in debtors prisons?

>>12552538
how is their ideology destroying enlightenment values? they are destroying all social norms that restrict human freedom to maximize human enlightenment

>>12552561
>they are destroying all social norms that restrict human freedom
They're creating norms that restrict human freedom. They're violently repressing ideas they don't like. They're attacking the idea of free speech. They're attacking the idea of the individual, and replacing it with "group identity" and identity politics more generally. These people aren't carrying out the enlightenment tradition at all.

>>12552501
Again, why do you care? You arent the boss of culture. Or do you want to be? You can carry on reading who you want to read if you like, but why should everyone else have to conform to what you think is acceptable?
Sometimes I think people like you want us to go back to everyone learning Latin by rote and transcribing out Horace or something.
Walter Scott isn't really on the curriculum any more, and is little read, do you have a problem with that? It there some conspiracy to find Scott long winded and boring?
Everyone on /lit/ shits on Dickens but take him off the university syllabus and you all lose your minds?

The Enlightenment blows; let it collapse.

>>12552596
I care because the enlightenment ideas that formed the foundation of modern Western culture are being replaced with post-modern gibberish.

>hurr durr, if you believe in enlightenment ideals you must want people to learn latin and read Walter Scott
I don't particularly care about those ideas. I care that the ideas of the individual, reason, and tolerance are being replaced with group guilt, identity politics, and lived experience. It's incredibly narcissistic to pretend this cultural subversion is acceptable just because you can still read whatever you want.

>>12551537
Japan is ethnically much more homogenous than the US.

Teaching mostly works by white men in a country where a large proportion of people are POC and half of the population is female is nonsense, and also erases/ignores a large part of the country's history and culture (and aren't people studying literature to get to know about culture?)

>>12552596
>but why should everyone else have to conform to what you think is acceptable?

lmao this is the most self-unware /lit/ post I've seen for awhile

>>12552596
Absolutely ridiculous. Not him, but having a gripe with the criteria by which the gatekeepers of literature modify the curricula is wanting to be the boss of culture? You fucking retard. It's one thing to motivate and cultivate those less likely to develop erudite interests to interact with culture at large and create great works of their own and another to throw them into the culture by virtue of their skin colour and encourage the creation of works as per the same 'woke' stencil. Sudoku yourself.

>>12552637
And you think that university reading lists have the wrong kind of writers will cause this replacement? I don't follow. Does reading Keats somehow inoculate you against irrational thoughts?

>>12551556

> western institution in a western country
> in a western country with 45 million black people

the whole country of Norway has less than 7 million inhabitants

>>12552647
>op story about britain
>post you are responding to is about britain
>durrrrr usa usa usa

thanks gay world police

>>12552647
Western culture is defined by the works and ideas of white men. If you are interested in Indian or Chinese literature, there are specific courses for those authors.

>>12552653
>throw them into the culture by virtue of their skin colour
So agree with the students removing the white males from the curricula?

>>12552667
OP's post is about a British university, you mutt. Not every country enjoys the same negro fetishism as yours.

>>12552663
Yes, I think that replacing Western thinkers with nonwhites and foreigners will exacerbate the decline of enlightenment ideals.

>>12552672
>Western culture is defined by the works and ideas of white men
But not anymore, because 'Western culture' is being redefined. Why should we ignore women and non white writers? It's not like Dickens or Tennyson are these great untouchable figures. They are only up on the pedestal in the first place because they are old and white and male

>>12552688
Sucks to be you then. Nobody else has to care, and they can replace your ideals with better ones which make more sense.

>>12552693
>They are only up on the pedestal in the first place because they are old and white and male
Surely you're joking.

>>12552693
>But not anymore, because 'Western culture' is being redefined

That's the exact issue you question begging dumbass.

>>12552675
The white males were overwhelmingly thrown into the limelight of culture, not because they were white, but because black works are few and mos suck. Also, whites are disproportionately interested in literature compared to blacks. You could argue that is because of oppression and the lack of opportunity. Let's give them the space to develop such interests and cultivate them, rather than fixing the curricula according to 'ethnic representation', whereby all themes and styles revolve around social media pop wokism.

>>12552703
>and they can replace your ideals with better ones which make more sense.
As more and more nonwhite flood into our country it is inevitable that Western culture will be replaced. Don't believe for a second that Marxist and post-modern ideas spreading because of their superiority though.