/lit/ - Literature

Are libraries moral?

No really, what’s the moral difference between going to a library, reading a book and putting it back vs downloading an epub? The author receives nothing in both cases.

>>12542352
who cares

>>12542352
You wouldn't download a car anon?

>>12542352
If the book has a living author, or living relatives who the author would've liked to see receive royalties, then it is immoral

Pirating books written <1930 is generally moral, however.

>>12542352
Is putting a paywall on knowledge moral?

If the author is left wing or suspected of being anti-White in any way then it is immoral to pay them.

>>12542357
Do you think that libraries get their books for free?

>>12542393
How do you think .pdfs are scanned?

>>12542378
Based

>>12542393
Do you think the person who uploaded the epub file in the first place wrote it themselves without acquiring the book first or purchasing it online?

>>12542352
If everyone can quickly and easily gain access to the same information a book contains then it's silly to pretend you have some sort of obligation to pay someone money for a book. Information isn't a possession. I don't steal anything by hearing someone else driving past me playing a digital copy of a song they downloaded without paying money just because some band is trying to sell copies of it through their own supply system.

>>12542403

I have 1 idea. I give 1 idea to you. I still have that 1 idea, but you have it too.

I don't care, I'm going to use it anyway.

>>12542366
>or living relatives

If they didn't want you to have it, it wouldn't be on the internet.

>>12542357
The difference is, theres one libgen database and thousands upon thousands of libraries. Libraries buy many more books than the few who upload on libgen.

Although perhaps libgen give more exposure to books by allowing more people to possess them, increasing the likelihood that people will actually buy the books to support the author. I'd like to see some data on it, but until then it's all speculation.

>>12542388
>If the author is left wing or suspected of being anti-White in any way then it is immoral to pay them.

>>12542352
Piracy is absolutely moral. I present to you a deductive argument for such a schema:
Let A_1, A_2, A_3, ... A_(n+1) denote n + 1 moral agents, not necessarily distinct, The argument schema A runs as follows:
1) A_1's actions in case (=thought-experiment) 1 are morally permissible
2) If A_1's actions in case 1 are morally permissible, then A_2's actions in case 2 are morally permissible.
...
n) If A_n's actions in case n are morally permissible, then A_n+1's actions in case n+1 are morally permissible
and so on. this resultant argument is formally valid by successive applications of hypothetical syllogism and modus ponens. the length of instance of A is determined by how many cases one chooses to devise. this can be applied as follows:
let n = 5. there's an instance of T with its corresponding instance of A. set [...] = "rented a book" (set can also be "video games", "paintings", "software", "movies" and so on)
Case 1) A_1 rents a book b, reads it, and then A_1 returns m. A_1 liked b, so in the future she sometimes thinks about the scenes, dialogue, themes and so on, in b for her own enjoyment
Case 2) A_2 has a very good memory. Like A_1, he reads a book b (the same one), likes it, and returns it. A_2 liked b, so in the future he reminisces in a similar fashion to A_1, but he is also able to make some of the prose of b utterly vivid in his mind.
Case 3) A_3 is a genius of some sort, like A_2, she rents the book b, reads it, likes it, and returns it. The reading affected her deeply, in fact she adored b so much that she employs her special gift to turn the pages of b in her "mind's eye" exactly as they ran past her eyes when b was sitting between her hands.
Case 4) A_4 is exactly like A_3, but he has astonishing verbal fluency. not only can he run the pages of b through his mind's eye exactly as they appeared before him prior, but is able to express (verbally) verbatim the prose and subtext of the b to others.
Case 5) This case involves two agents: B_1 and A_5. B_1 behaves exactly just about like A_4, except rather than expressing books verbally she has had A_5 create a printing device D that can print texts based on the user's input. A_5 then (under the direct permission of B_1) rents b, has B_1 read it, and returns it. following B_1's reading, he then uses D to reproduce the text verbatim onto physical pages. A_5 has done exactly what she has been given permission to do. B_1 in the future can reproduce the text for any of her friends as she pleases.
--
let me address any potential cases of a "faulty transition". I have seen people go out of there way to find a morally significant difference between two successive cases. this line of attack is unpromising, as any instance of A in question can diverge from the hypothetical path into as many as 30 cases. this apparently limitless expansion of A makes any reasonable argument assignment to [...] there is an instance of A with n set to a natural number large enough to yield a sufficient T.

>>12542654
based autism spectrum disorder

>>12542357
In Denmark authors get money each time their book is loaned from what I remember

>>12542352
Okay here's some libertarian autism I wrote just for you guys. Enjoy <3.

1. Intellectual property rights aren't "natural rights". In fact, they're unethical and nonsensical. This is the libertarian position, and you can read about it in "Against Intellectual Property" by Steven Kinsella. It seems like every week there's news of more contradictions and more inadequacy in the patent system.

2. DRM and locked down systems like Kindle are an ethical alternative.

3. The way you fight piracy is building a better delivery mechanism.

4. I buy many books I acquired through libgen. I buy almost every book I actually read, and that's true of many people.

5. The arts should be supported by donations, not by police men roughing people down. Think about all the great authors who published with poorer copyright controls. Many of them were born rich enough to live a life devoted to the arts without earnings, or else wrote as a hobby. Think about all the creators supported by Patreon, and then imagine that applied to books.

6. The textbook racket is unethical because it relies on state-provided easy money in the form of financial aid. Easy money makes prices go up. Additionally, the state is the final arbitrator of which schools get accredited, resulting in a cabal. Textbooks were more affordable before the college bubble. (And before you guffaw this, look it up.)

7. Publishers should rely most on beating everyone else to market and capturing the most profits before competition arises.

>>12542732
>believing in objective natural rights
>defending Jeff Bezos
>"muh charity"
holy shit, are you 18?

>>12542759
>not believing in objective natural rights
>attacking Jeff Bezos
>muh "muh charity"
holy fuck, are you a nigger faggot?

>>12542787
one day you'll grow up and realize good ideas do in fact require force. though I don't think I was ever as naive as you.

>>12542654
Keep your last word to Peter, heathen.

>>12542654
>>12542732
Can utilitarianism keep along with anal autism?

>>12542352
>download books to read them the first time
>buy the ones you really enjoy and value in hard copy for your collection
>only "good" books, whatever that happens to mean for you, get supported, and therefore more of them made
>"bad" books die out
Inject that social Darwinism straight into my veins.

>>12542914
>logic is paganism

>>12542880
You'll never grow up enough to abandon your contempt for reason and make an argument which isn't an ad hominem. And you'll never read a single book in the libertarian canon.
I'm getting bored of arguing with only red herrings. Don't know how you can stand it.

>>12542936
I think libertarianism can't be considered utilitarian because libertarians believe there's no measure of utility and utility can't be compared objectively.
It can probably be considered anal autism though.

>>12543030
>You'll never grow up enough to abandon your contempt for reason and make an argument which isn't an ad hominem. And you'll never read a single book in the libertarian canon.
I've read all of Wealth of Nations, the only relevant one. I have no interest in reading "How to kill your economy with private debt 101".
I also have no contempt for reason, I"m the person who wrote the paragraph on the morality of piracy featured in >>12542654

>>12542654
tl;dr but saved

>>12542357
>Books are free

There is no such thing as an original ideas, the author of a book is merely the embodied prism through which the whole of human history before him refracts into a specific shape. Copyright is Immoral, it steals from the rest of the communal pool of information

>>12543025
it is

>>12543062
Pascal would claim otherwise.

>>12542366
there is no reason to pirate stuff that old because it is already public domain

>>12543065
pascal would suck a dick if it got him into heaven

>>12542352
I don't believe in IP laws so it's moral for me. Plus I don't give a shit if an author who died 500 years ago doesn't get money for his book

>>12543039
>I have no interest in reading "How to kill your economy with private debt 101".
Okay suit yourself.

But I mean, just for the sake of being well-rounded, everyone should read Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto, books which no sensible person can love.
Even if it's just so you can eviscerate libertarians at parties, you should read "Man, Economy, and State".

>I"m the person who wrote the paragraph on the morality of piracy featured in >>12542654
I'm also interested in being formal, but with caveats. You should try hate-reading "Economic Science and the Austrian Method". Wish you well anon.

>property

>>12543084
That doesn't sound very logical.

>>12543140
If you are gay, both of us will have a happiness of erotic pleasure.
Else, it's still a browjob.

You wouldn't pirate a ham

I would pirate Kondo's stack, if you catch my meaning...

>>12542352
Who knows? As long as I'm a poorfag, I don't have much of a choice if not use it

>>12542352

Yes. Next.

>>12543267
Pragmatic post

>>12542403
smart

>>12542352
If morality and libgen are in conflict then it is morality that is at fault.

>>12542642
In this case the mouth would be shut.

>>12542378
Absolutely based

>>12542654
aaaaaaaaand /thread
this entire internet argument is over, nobody can ever shit on piracy ever again.

>>12542378

>>12542654
Not bad for a meme.

>>12542378
yeah, knowledge shouldn't be accessible to plebs. xenophanes demanded his pupils to keep the knowledge he taught them a secret.

>>12542352

Yes.

>>12542352
If the author is dead, the book is obscure and the physical copies cost an unreasonable amount for a single read and/or are extremely difficult to acquire I have no qualms about pirating it.

>>12542732
based

dont change libertarian anon, greater good is evil

>>12542352

I honestly use it to see if a book is worth buying, most of the times. It has served me well with academic literature, to this point, because that stuff costs 50$ a book and you don't want to spend that money on useless literature. As for novels and literature in general I like to handle the physical object so I buy them all - I think they are reasonably expensive.

>>12542378
This.
Ownership of knowledge, ideas, and non-tangible property in general is an incoherent concept anyway.

>>12542352
it has nothing to do with me so I don't care

>>12542605

>>12542672
they get 5% of my 10 cent late fee?

>>12542403
based

>>12543611
>not using yellow subtitles

>>12542672
This is true in a lot of countries I think.

>>12542352
libgen triggers the jew

>>12542352
I am sorry if I don't feel like paying huge a lot of money for a lot of books. Publishing companies nowadays only look for making the most out of every written word. New books can be excruciatingly expensive sometimes, even if they are shit-tier. So, no, it isn't immoral. You aren't stealing anything, you are legit avoiding getting stolen.

>>12542352
Were jouglars that made a living out of singing chants they hadn't invented thieves?

>>12542378
while I do believe in copyright for a reasonable period, this is indeed based at baseline

Reminder that Henry Kissinger's undergraduate thesis, The Meaning of History: Reflections on Spengler, Toynbee, and Kant, is available on libgen.

No money for publishers until they stop being faggots.
Especially given all my favorite authors are long since dead, it sure ain't helping them to buyfag now.

>>12542352
text isn't scarce, it shouldn't cost anything.

>>12542654
Meme of course, but why would reproduction someone else work be free from moral qualms no matter how much you enjoyed it.

>>12542672
They also get money from having books in libraries.

>>12542352
Libgen is anti-semitic.

>>12542637
> I'd like to see some data on it, but until then it's all speculation.
Look up the EU study about piracy that was suppressed.

>>12542654
This argument assumes the moral concept of intellectual property doesn't exist

Just because you can rehearse a book in your mind doesn't mean you now own the creative process that originally went into writing those words

>>12546152
>the moral concept of intellectual property doesn't exist
It didn't until a few hundred years ago

>>12546152
property doesn't exist

>>12542352
Nice spook, faggot

>>12542366
>living relatives
Is my family going to get my pension for 100 years?

>>12542378
Copyright law Jews btfo and seething

>>12542378
>Books are only knowledge

>>12543603
only of static experiences, people pirate video games which can't be independently recreated from memory of interaction

Every book is already my property.

access to art should be a human right

>>12546641
Stirner never said that

>>12546829
That's really great for Stirner but it is what I say.
Now load up your diary desu. I wish to extend my ownership over it.

>>12542352
It is severely Russian and amoral.

>>12544967

Actually, I can't find Images of the Feminine in Gnosticism on it so NO.

>>12542654
2 then does not follow

>>12546209
can i use your body then?

>>12542352

I can't get myself to use that site. Feel terrible especially if it's someone who I like. I want to support the people who I read, especially if they are still alive. Also it keeps me paced, if I had access to all these books, I'd probably never finish any of them. Six max on my kindle is my limit, will not buy anymore books until I finish one.

>>12547032
Not sure if bait or absolute retard

>>12547046
Why must you always be so nasty?

>>12547046

what's the bait? people read who they like to read.

>>12547059
why not?

>>12547062
Red Mars wails and beckons at midnight

>>12547032
>waiting a month to acquire a book...and enjoying it
BUYFAGS, EVERYONE

>>12547241

To be honest I was never into reading books until I got a kindle during Christmas. I couldn't be bothered with it. It was too much of a hassle, especially with my poor eyesight. But Kindle changed that. /shrugs. So yes, I'm a buy fag. I don't pirate anything anymore. $15 for a good read is peanuts.

>>12542352
Knowledge that isn't shared is lost.
When it is shared, it can't be taken back, so it is the beginning of freedom.
Libgen and torrents are laudable, ethical things

>>12547275
what's your native language faggot

>>12542352

if you can afford it and still continue to pirate it then yes it is at some level unethical.

>>12547365
are you saying that stealing things is ethical if you don't have money to buy it?
like i could go to the BMW dealer, steal a 100 000$ because i don't have that much money and you would consider it ethical?

>>12542363
>>12543219
who wouldn't?

>>12547374

No that's not what I'm saying. You are oversimplifying it. We are talking about books here that cost anywhere from $1-$20 at most and not a car. All I'm saying is that if you are going to pirate a book because you can't afford it, to at least promise yourself that one day when do actually start making money, to buy the books instead.

>>12546152
it's more a legal concept than a moral one. The retarded inbred son of a famous writer can hold intellectual property over all of his father's writings despite being illiterate.

Recognition for quality work is not admission of property, and neither is compensating a writer for his labour.

>>12547400
What if I pirate books I wouldn't have otherwise paid attention to, in order to know if they're worth buying ?

>>12547431

That's different. You are sampling the book. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm pretty sure you can sample almost all books on Amazon to see if they are worth buying. Hell, you can even buy the book, read as far as you can within a week and return it for a refund. I have done this myself with a few of them.

is property moral?

People who are against piracy are liars or cucks.

>>12546354
>he pays for books

>>12547479
>private property is theft
or
>public expropriation is theft

>>12546152
>implying a creative process is even something to be "owned"

>>12546969

Found a torrent, of all things. General buttpiracy beats particular buttpiracy again.

>>12548359
Look guys, Reddit did it.

>>12543053
They are now LMAO

>>12547275
>$15 for a good read
I read like 60 books a year. If you include ones I drop that's more like 200. Many of them are like $30 even for kindle edition because obscure.
Retard buyfag only reads genre fiction. Get out you stupid casual.

>>12546142
Wow, thank you. That study is really enlightening. And fuck the EU.

>>12542759
>>12542787
Holly shit this place is gold. Fuck!

>>12542352
Should I care about whether it’s moral or not? Sincere question. I don’t think I do.

>>12547479
absolutely not.

>>12543619
retarded proposition followed by an appeal to some has been who i don't care to look up.

>>12542352
No, but as with video game and music piracy, it's not like you're gonna kill the publishers or some shit. It's a small dent in most of their profit margins.
Also:
>Most books on there you that you download you probably wouldn't have even bought anyways.
>Someone has to buy and upload it therefore only books of some demand are there so little guys aren't hurt too often.
>You may find a new author that you like encouraging you to buy a hardcover version of their book or buy one of their new books which haven't been uploaded yet.
Overall I'd say it's nothing to fuss about.

>>12542352
If it's a dead white male like we all mostly read, who the fuck cares if we deny their rich family and publishing company who put nothing into the work itself an amount of money they won't even notice?
On the other hand, you should buy works by alive/recently deceased and non celebrity authors that you like.

>>12542359
spbp

Enforcing intellectual property laws are broadly not actionable. Even if it was immoral, force is an ineffective solution (if you take immoral behavior to be a problem).

>>12547032
Imagine thinking Amazon is easier to use than libgen.

>>12547374
>stealing = copying files
kek, just stop using the computer completely luddite

>>12542366
>living relatives
fuck that
my rule is if the author is alive don't pirate if he's dead then the high seas it is
also if I bought a physical copy then no qualms about getting a digital copy as well

except textbooks are pirate 100% of the time because fuck that markup

>>12542378
I can tell anon hasn't read 'Knowledge and Decisions'.
Information isn't free you fucking commie.

>>12542787
>>not believing in objective natural rights
normally i'd just call you a retard for believing in natural rights. but i'm feeling charitable today.
You need to read:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-anton-wilson-natural-law-or-don-t-put-a-rubber-on-your-willy
then:
http://www.academia.edu/11431763/HUMAN_RIGHTS_CHIMERAS_IN_SHEEPS_CLOTHING
if after reading those you still believe in natural rights, read:
https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Natural-Rights-Other-Essays/dp/061519298X
if you're read all of those and STILL believe... just kill yourself, you are too stupid to live.

Absolutely moral if you need to download PDFs for academic research. Putting research and journal articles behind paywalls with no institution-granted access is in fact unethical, so you would have the high ground.

Full Dawnsonera, Jstor, etc. access with a university login and subscription or pay-per-article for non-academic users is the only true way, prove me wrong.