/lit/ - Literature

tim heidecker - i am a cuck

"Being and God", although you need to read "Structure and Being" first

Pic unrelated

>>12522386
What is christianity's view on asexuality?

>>12522386
Lol you can't refute atheism. I can win every single debate by asking for proof

>>12522443
aromantic > asexual

>>12522386
It's not christians that try to refute atheits but the opposite

>>12522386
There isn't any deistic argument that can refute atheism simply because both are belief systems at their core revolving around unprovable. On practical ground level stripped out of all mysticism, Christianity has massive advantage over atheism in that its advocates can simply point out its belief system enables constructing culturally and technologically advanced civilizations which endure hundreds of years. Likewise it's worthwile pointing out that any self-described atheist society declines rapidly into primitive personality cults (cue Mao, Lenin, Stalin...) which are proven to be short-lived and destructive on populations which take that bait, and if they survive transform into political religions anyways (China is still officially building communism).

>>12522386
>no meme reddit answers
But this is a meme reddit-tier post, why would you ask for anything of higher quality when your own post if of so little?

You don't argument for God, you experience Him and His Uncreated Grace.

>>12522686
Isn't this just the mandate of heaven though? Couldn't you make this same argument in favor of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism et cetera?
(I'm asexual by the way)

>>12522443
If you're not a monk you must get married, I'm not even kidding.

>>12522706
This is so cool.
Saved

>>12522386
>be christian = go to heaven
>be atheist = go to hell
>b-but there's no hell
>how do you know?
>YOU DON'T KNOW IT TOO
>yes but in case it exists I'm going to heaven and you aren't

>>12522386
Debates are cringe. Read Christian philosophy instead of low IQ apologetics books.

>>12522443
How do I become asexual

>>12522706
We have nowhere near as good of an understanding of human evolution as this chart implies.

>>12522707
Hang yourself - I promise, you won't regret it

>>12522443
The underlying thoughts in the sexual sphere:
>I want to manifest myself and her through her for aeons! Let there be change and permanence in this great manner. I wish I was a good poet. In my juvenile years I neglected the arts and music.
>Is she being serious or is she going for an underhanded plan? Does she want me, or to humiliate me and play with me? Will I humiliate myself? What is her quality?

It's very important to note that women don't seem to talk to asexual men.

>>12522706
Everything after Procynosuchus is vile and ugly. In fact, Procynosuchus looks kinda retarded.

>>12522820
>take on Pascal's Wager
>sure that I'll either go to heaven or vanish into oblivion
>actually get cast into jahannam for rejecting the teachings of the Prophet pbuh
Wtf reddit

>>12523065
Christians get to enter heaven according to Muslim doctrine.

>>12522706
It's not mandate of heaven, but sure, you can make same case about any belief system that has produced about same results as Christianity. Either way deists win atheists on that front.

>>12522686
such a shitty post. Atheism isn't a belief system. it's an absence of a particular belief system. The communists you listed have their own belief systems which mirrored religions. Mao and Stalin are more than mortals. Leader Kim is actually a deity. fuck off with this "communism is atheism" bullshittery

>>12523070
>Worship Allah, get reborn when I die and get further trapped in a cycle of attachment and dukka
>mfw

>>12522849
Chemical castration

>>12522425
you konw the pop is just sjw posturing. he knows how ridiculous this is from a theological perspective

>>12522686
>Christianity has massive advantage over atheism in that its advocates can simply point out its belief system enables constructing culturally and technologically advanced civilizations which endure hundreds of years. Likewise it's worthwile pointing out that any self-described atheist society declines rapidly into primitive personality cults (cue Mao, Lenin, Stalin...) which are proven to be short-lived and destructive on populations which take that bait, and if they survive transform into political religions anyways
except that is a lie.
>>12522386
you can't because at that point faith stops being faith.
>>12522706
mandate of heaven is a meme because is determined by might is right mentality.

>>12522686
this is ironic, right?

>>12522820
>spend life in slavish worship of imaginary being for the 1 in a trillion chance that transcendental forces monitoring human life exist and you happened to choose the right one, who also happens to punish all non-slaves
pascal's wager is truly epic

>>12522386
Nietzsche obviously. God is dead was not just that, but its consequence. And by that, we can agree that atheists are desperately trying to put something in god's place. Either sciences, the state(hello gommies), and all sort of bullshit. Even tho im an atheist myself,not by choice, but probably by impotence in doing so. I have this theory that atheists are born without the hability to believe in god or, we are like castrated from god. The funny part is most of us think that we are too smart to believe in god or something like it. And believing or not is not about IQ, but potency. Some people can do it, other just dont. And since i cant tell the difference, i have freud on my side (a non believer himself) that said that believing in god and go to a temple to pray eases neurosis symptoms.

>>12523529
enjoy hell, faggot

>>12523636
in conclusion, believing in god is a good thing, atheists just cant do it, and because we are blind to god, we curse believers.

>>12523645
>calling god's creations faggots
See you there buddy

>>12522465
They’ll replace proof of existence with proof of justification for belief by reducing all frameworks on the same level.
>fideism
>”reformed epistemology”

>>12522386
How is China getting along without a religion? Is that why they obsess over material status?

>>12523708
It's the opposite. That's why Louis Vitton bags have to lose all their labelling when they're sold in China. Having something with brand names on it is, rightfully, considered gaudy as fuck.

>>12523636
you are so cringey.

>>12523708
China does have a religion. start cultivating, you scrub.

>>12522425
Luke 11:21 "A man strong ARMED and defends his palace, his goods are at peace"

>>12523720
Lmao you don’t know much about China do you amerimutt

>>12523859
I'm not American but I am asexual.

>>12523065
>>12523529
Pascal’s wager was supported by his lengthy defense of Christianity. He argues why it is the perfect religion, specifically comparing it to other religions like Islam and the eastern religions. Obviously we cannot choose Christianity for no reason. We need faith to ultimately believe, but we need reason to decide what to have faith in. Even if Christianity doesn’t have a 100% chance of being true, as long as it seems most likely to be true, isn’t it best to choose it? Won’t you have a happier and more meaningful life?

>>12522465
You're asking for physical evidence for something which is metaphysical. Unless you're willing to accept argumentation which is not reliant upon strict empiricism then this is tantamount to someone asking "Can you DISPROVE God?" How you would prove something like the existence of a higher power will be fundamentally different than proving water boils at 100 °C.

>>12522386
>christfags

>>12522465
Why is believing in something out of uncertainty inferior to not believing? Reason and proofs cannot decide the matter, so it all comes down to faith. Why should we NOT have faith in God?

>>12523151
Christianity claims a manner of monopoly on salvation, so it's the most dangerous option to leave alone.
Though Christ's teachings can be interpreted in a fashion close to New Age Hinduism.

>>12523837
Imagine obeying literal herd instincts like shame after the death of God.

It really depends on what kind of "atheist" you're talking to. This is my huge problem with all practicing identitarians - the second you people start flinging around EACH OTHER'S beliefs like you actually know what the fuck the other person is even thinking is the second you become completely incapable of communicating anything - and at that point even you know you're just arguing as masturbation. Though with Christians and other religions there is an actual community that stands as a reference of continuity for its members, accompanied by some semblances of tradition and practice (though maybe not for retarded american protestants but OOPS *that attitude isn't useful*), you still have a massive range of practices and disagreements - and above all, everyone experiences God's grace differently by construction of their lives. So already the mask of "Christianity" hides in fact an ocean of spirit. "Atheist" then is an even more disparate, divided denomination. There is no shared tradition - there are clusters of communication but they lack the kind of cohesion that the real Churches of Earth understood and propagated into our time. Still common factors come to head underneath its guise - the tides of capitalism and the unrestrained chaos of ever evolving world history that have brought us into the nuclear and internet ages, the tides of enlightenment, the tides of Martin Luther, that shattered and splintered the Christian web (of course only strengthening it elsewhere) have left millions squabbling in the dark - science erects itself as a new god in the shadow of the state, among others in a new pantheon of chaos. The internet makes everything even more shattered and confusing.

>>12524496
There's a whole lot of theists with unfocused beliefs who don't practice religion in addition to the philosophical atheists and soul searchers who might be into actual discussion, instead of waging a meme crusade for their various idols and gods.

Funnily enough, the common atheist has a checklist of "reasons" they claim to oppose religion for, but they ignore every other category of being that fills the quota. For example, money.
>Cause of much torture and suffering
>Cause and condition for warfare and conquest
>Can be used to mask evil
>Tool of control
etc. But ever seen a practicing atheist who doesn't believe in money?

>>12524514
I agree that they share manifestations of this checklist - but each one's personal understanding of why that checklist makes sense to them, invariably, is different. Each one's understanding of what "losing argument" vs "winning argument" feels like to them. Capitalism literally makes people robots and its horrifying, yeah, but it doesn't LITERALLY MAKE PEOPLE ROBOTS, at least not yet. There are always common manifestations. We shouldn't be trying to speak - or rather berate - those. We should be trying to talk to people as the weird fucks they are - exploit their sense of reality to show them that everything is so much larger.

>ever seen a practicing atheist who doesn't believe in money?

I guess not? Yay? Literally millions of people are captured in this train ride to hell and you're sitting on your laurels acting high and mighty? And you're wondering why you're losing power to convince people?!

I don't know what I'm supposed to be refuting.

>>12522386
There literally aren't any. Religion requires faith and some people are just okay admitting uncertainty and find it intellectual dishonest to use "faith" as a magic excuse to fill the void of answerlessness and keep the terrifying uncertainty at bay.

Some people don't preserve unfalsifiable opinions. Some people think that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but by definition lack any substantial argument for why.

>>12523855
dont bother
they dont care about bible or patristics cause they arent progressive enough

>>12524579
>but it doesn't LITERALLY MAKE PEOPLE ROBOTS
It's not irreversible, but damn is it a chore to heal. Public education makes people atheists and robots. That's its job, to put you in the proper class within the society, believing the things society wants you to believe.
>1. Your education system is (among) the best in the world.
>2. The competing education systems are hideous and horrible brainwashing.
>3. Breed and live according to our evaluation system. (If we want more of certain types, like niggers, we just evaluate them higher for no other reason and let them into Universities and higher breeding stock).
>4. Respond to authority properly. Let authority handle problems instead of yourself.
I believe that Mammon is a transcendent god humanity has aligned itself with, one that can manifest itself and sell itself to us. I even practiced usury at the age of 8, to the dismay of my friends.

If we had leadership that didn't want the population to be atheists, they wouldn't be. Sociology, psychology and organization have grown massive infrastructures beyond time, and are guiding human evolution. Now that everybody that is alive and in any power position has gone through it is molded by it. This is a foolish game, and will end in catastrophe.

apologetics is an exercise in futility. no one can come to God through mere reason.

>>12522443
Go back to tumblr you vapid faggot.

>>12523135
You fucking retard, atheism is a belief system and its core belief is "there is no God". Saying that it is just a lack of belief is a brainlet tier reddit "argument"

It is a damn chore, but if there is anything worth fucking doing anymore in these times - is trying not it? Beware the attitude that the beast is invincible. This is its most insidious lie. God is simply too wide - nothing can stretch its claws to infinity and touch him. If you want to see humans, speak to humans. It doesn't have to be everybody, but just the small sphere of influence you've been granted for only however long. The size of the beast seems to call for something like a giant harpoon - but I think something more like a virus is in order. Of course, its defenses grow day after day. Think of the internet back in the early 90s, the 2000s, and now.

Unfortunately, and I may lose a lot of people here (I have not yet mastered my own voice), but I think that those who know and want to perpetuate the love of God need to look into the wilderness to find him again in the modern age. The ancient texts we have access to do indeed carry knowledge of God - but God is in everything. Born eons apart, it is no wonder why modern man cannot help but interpret the words of the bible in their own constrained bubble. We need to look to re-translate; find again the spirit that guides.

Again, attempting to reach up, grasping at the sun like Icarus, won't work. No one's gonna found a new church in the modern day, it won't be a totalizing movement (and if it is, it is already under captial's rule). It is going to be through individual nodes; local networks.

>>12524745
>>12524640
meant for

>>12524745
>Beware the attitude that the beast is invincible. ... Of course, its defenses grow day after day.
It's surprisingly vulnerable, actually. As far as organization goes, they can't afford civil wars within NATO. They've divided people too much to control them. I fear the effects of the demographic change in Europe to become a near permanent damage and burden. Well, permanent - more like a few centuries to half a million years at worst, or a horrible EUgoslavian war of ethnic cleansing. South America and Africa are like hell because of their demographic (Sub-Saharan African DNA?) issues.
I do find it curious that the control grid lost all ambition after the moon landing, and now only seeks to prolong its life and worsen the suffering of its citizens. I had high hopes for humanity in space. Oh well, plenty happens behind the scenes. NATO might die along with EU within the next decade or even before.

Imagine listening to this and still being Christian
https://youtu.be/BWINpXNd5KE

>>12522467
everyone is aromantic because romance is a simulacrum

>>12524943
Go on... I'm intrigued. Did baudrillard say this?

>>12522443
Christianity's view is irrelevant. Bunch of people making guesses about what God really wants. He made you asexual, so he must have had something in mind.

>>12524926
Reminds me of Star Wars. Before the dark times. I've watched the original trilogy over and over before I could even speak, so it holds quite the importance.
However, I do believe you could have just asked for Christian music directly and honestly, without silly bait.
https://youtu.be/o81A31hlgEA
https://youtu.be/aKYQ5c8oaIk

>>12524968
The solemn turning-away felt of those videos are good for something surely, but where is the earth it has rejected for heaven
https://youtu.be/JE-riazUvJE

>>12522386

Why do you come on a literature board in search of "arguments" when people here discuss books? You're not going to get out easily, boy. I don't give a fuck if you want to win an argument with your ex-best friend you used to play D&D with back in the day who's the son of a doctor and incidentally has more money than you so you have to rely on a feeble notion of mysticism and "god's plan" to justify your own failures.
Read Augustine confessions, then come up with your own "arguments".

>>12524968
Do not marry blindly thy abyssal spirit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1c5gJricqQ

>>12525080
>>12525261
Beethoven does not compete with Christianity. Everything spiritual and beautiful elevates being and becoming and shines light upon it.
As above, so below.

To me, Christianity is not amnesic mongrels arguing over which politician is the literal avatar of Antichrist - whilst simultaneously worshiping the archetypal Jew, the Antichrist. Christianity is the pure actuality of spirit and love over all.

>From historical evidence, today’s scholars know that Beethoven did not attend Mass regularly, and from that they inferred that he was not an orthodox Christian. His actual religious beliefs are not clearly defined, but references in his letters imply a firm belief in an ultimate, benign, and intelligent Power.
>As early as 1818, Beethoven showed genuine interest in "true church music", which to him was defined by the musical styles of the earliest composers of religious music, like Palestrina. He wrote notes to himself to look through all the monastic church chorals and strophes in the most correct translations and to find perfect prosody in psalms and hymns. At the same time, he became fascinated with the texts of the Mass, perhaps drawing less conventional interpretations from the words, which he meant to represent in a Mass of his own composition. As he explored church music with increasing enthusiasm, he located sources of information, through books or people, in musical or philosophical contexts, to contribute to his quest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1EduLH7L8

As anon above said, God is simply too wide to box in. Whether the box is laboratory equipment, text or Church.

>>12525381
Absolutely there is god, you are that, Shvetaketu
https://youtu.be/Gx_EhMM2S5Y

>>12522386
>arguments refuting atheism
>CHRISTIAN arguments refuting atheism

>>12525568
Your programmed attitude towards Christianity could easily go for an argument, would you be of better stock to understand it.

>>12522386
Unironically Leibniz.

>>12523901
He never asked for physical evidence, only for some proof. As there is no proof whatsoever, the point still stands.

>>12522386
There is no need for an argument to refute atheism, as atheism is the 'default' mode so to speak. Anyone claiming the christian god exists should be the one making an argument for his existence.
It would be like asking 'how do I refute people who claim the planet xordox doesn't exist?' you need to first show why such a planet does exists before I need to bother refuting your idea.

>>12525652
Disgusting post
>t. not affiliated

>>12522386
Atheistcucks literally cannot recover.

>>12525683
It's cute when theists think they can into argumentation and proof: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13752

>>12522386
>over 70 replies
>not a single mention of G. K. Chesterton
What the hell, /lit/? Chesterton wrote the best Christian apologetics books of the 20th century. Read Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man, OP.

>>12525694
>Richard Carrier

Retard

>>12525728
you certainly are

>A quick and dirty way to phrase this argument is: change is real; change requires some fundamental underlying substrate, an ultimate “causy thing,” that makes change possible; ergo, that has to be God. The handwave at the end there, from the major premise to the conclusion, involves some convoluted step of reasoning about there having to be some actual thing that actualizes change, which itself is not actualized by anything else—something “self-actualizing.” Aristotle’s “Unmoved Mover.” How you get a mind out of that is where it gets all wobbly and his supposed logical precision dissolves.

>One common thread to understand all of what follows is that Feser is a thousand years behind the times in the scientific study of the cognition of ontology. Every argument Feser deploys is just a manipulation of a model in his head. He imagines a model in the theater of his mind, and deduces some things he thinks he’d need for that model to obtain in reality. At no point does he ever show that this model ever corresponds to reality. This is a common and serious problem with theology (see my article The God Impossible for some important perspective on this). Yes, maybe you can come up with a model for how the universe works, such that only a God could explain why it exists. But whether the universe actually corresponds to that model you just invented is precisely the question we are trying to answer. No amount of tinkering with the model, can answer that question. Science is superior to theology precisely because it found a way to stop just tinkering with models in our heads andstart testing which models actually apply. And models that can’t be tested, it rightly declares unknowable.

>Such is the fate of Feser’s imagined God.

>>12525652
>my position is axiomatic

you're full of shit and you know it

>>12523182
You know it's fake anon, right?

>>12522386
Just read the Christian philosophers. Thomas Aquinas, Saint Augustine of Hippo, Soren Kierkegaard, the list goes on. If you would rather have something that's more argumentative and modern then try G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis. You might also like Roger Scruton. Roger has some unusual spiritual beliefs but he loves to criticize atheism and Marxism.

>>12522386
What a time we live in when even a Christian girl gets an anime girl mascot. It just further proves Baudrillard right.

>>12525768
How is claiming nothing a position that needs to be defended? I'll also go ahead and claim there's no proof for zebras on Mars, is that full of shit too?

>>12525674
Cool rebuttal. Care to expand on what's wrong with it?

>>12523135
Atheism has the fundamental belief that the only method for obtaining knowledge of the world is through empirical evidence

Jesus existed and managed to convert people from tribal religion into catholicism without offering land, gold, women or glory but pain, suffering and death
That's enough proof to me

>>12526216
Not true. An atheist could be completely anti science and still not believe in a god. You're attributing to atheism stereotypical neckbeard beliefs.

>>12526255
>People are irrational
>qed god exists

>>12526400
You are missing my point
I can't demostrate God exists, but if I am to believe in one, Jesus existence, life and how his church managed to expand gives him credibility like no other religion
Islam became popular by conquering land
Judaism became a tribal society

>>12522386
Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas.

>>12526412
Jesus didn't really do much to spread his religion though did he? Seems like Constantine was more important in spreading the religion

>>12526448
And how did Constantine become christian?
And why did the people of rome become christian when they would literally throw them to the lions for doing so?
Again, think back. Christianity went from a bunch of people to all europe while being persecuted constantly before becoming the norm. Why? What could they have gained for doing so?
I think that justifies at lwast some credit and believability to Jesus works

>>12526457
It's certainly nicer than most other religions, but I don't see how managing to instill millions with existential dread makes it any more true than another religion.

The resurgence of Catholicism in the West is an indication that the West is in decline. I fucking miss pre-2010s internet, I'll tell you hwat.

>>12526483
It's like you are not reading what I write.
Picture the apostles after Jesus death. They and their group of followers, which Im not sure about their numbers but they couldn't have been mire than a hundred, spread the tale of Jesus and somehow managed to convert thousands of people out of their old tribalistic religions or cults with the only offering of a better afterlife and the guarantee of persecution in their mortal life.
The only ways I can explain this is either people were very dumb back then, people needed an "afterlife" promise regardless pf what it was or Jesus life and miracles are true and their followers had the holy spirit in them and managed to convert them with its help.
We know people weren't THAT dumb that they would throw themselves into persecution just because, we know there existed other religions before that promised an afterlife, so we only have left the veracity of Jesus life.

Can anyone provide some good Christian reading that addresses the issue of why the Jews are the chosen ones, why God has only revealed Himself to them, and why it's fair that the rest of humanity is left in the dark and practicing "false" religions?

If God is granting humans the free will to worship Him, then why are millions and millions of people throughout history left behind to go to Hell purely because they happened to be born in a time in place where knowledge of the Christian God was impossible?

>>12525887
>atheism is the "default" state of being and we need a reason to believe otherwise

Despite the fact that religion and spirituality in its various forms has existed and been practiced by the majority of all humans, ever to have lived, since the beginning of time?

Do you even think before you post?

You're on the path of an unbeliever if you try to refute atheists. Why, by reason, would you try to prove that which can only be experienced?

>>12523891
>Even if Christianity doesn’t have a 100% chance of being true, as long as it seems most likely to be true, isn’t it best to choose it?

To choose in this manner would be to deny faith, as you have placed your decision to believe not on faith alone, nor on a code of actions which you believe in, but on a cold and rationalized probabilistic expectation of spiritual bribery.

Consider the verse from Mark on faith with the expectation of receiving benefit:

>Mark 11:22-24 ESV

>And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

But critically, note the conditional,
>... and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass...

Which implies to mine ears strongly implies disinterest in that kind of faith.

This means even WITHIN the framework of Christianity being generously presumed wholly accurate-as-recorded, believing won't help you. Any benefits about meaningful lives can be achieved through other avenues, and for which even you admit Christianity is not required.

>>12526583
Unless you haven't really experienced Divinity, in which case you are reasoning against yourself as much as with these atheists, in whom you see your own doubt.

>>12526598
We are all born atheists, God is revealed through our own pursuit of him. If you haven't experienced that then you must keep seeking and when you're moved you may be able to move others.

>>12526566
You can never understand Gods reasoning for anything
He is omniscient you are not

>>12526583
>defending your beliefs means your beliefs are weak because they have to be defended

>>12526641
Unless we redefine what "everything" in "knowing everything" means to no longer include misconceptions of reality (e.g
, all subjective vs. objective distinctions). At that point, it should become apparent that we can all become gods, so long as we pursue a wholesome understanding of ourselves.

>>12526641
The understanding of God is innate and dormant within all of us you ignorant cunt

>>12526656
God is omniscient, you are not, therefor you can't understand him and even if it seems like he is contradicting or "evil" he is still good and perfect

>>12526668
I agree but not in a "logical" way. Ifwe could logically understand God then how would you explain paradoxes such as God created a stone that he couldn't lift

>>12526671
Omniscience in the sense that you use it is impossible and has no bearing on our world. But we can understand ourselves in such a way that we intuit everything.

>>12526566
I'm just saying that you can't make a claim without evidence (god exists) and demand someone has to disprove you. That's absurd

>>12526671
Why do you think omniscience make god unknowable? It sounds like a way for you to justify not trying.

>>12526677
The very act of phrasing the paradox implies understanding. You shouldn't conflate spiritual understanding with scientific understanding, which is obviously bounded by what's measurable in the physical world.

>>12526538
You're just not reading into what my responses really mean. Just because the means of conversion were peaceful as opposed to forceful does not give veracity to the religion, your whole argument is nonsense, tantamount to saying 'its popular so that gives it some legitimacy', while ignoring the fact that there is still a lack of evidence, physical or otherwise, for anything religious.

>>12526678
>impossible
God is a mystery that we can't understand with our minds but with our hearts and souls
>>12526683
God can be understood but trough devotion to him, his word and his church, not trough logic

>>12526699
My argument is why did it became so popular?
I think it's because what we read in the NT was real. Why do you think it became popular?
Also
>no proof
Jesus tomb exists, records of Jesus outside the bible exists, the holy mamtle exists, the latest miracle of a virgin appearing was recorded on photographs.

>>12526709
Your God is a mystery that can't be understood at all because he makes no sense. In order to be omniscient, your God must be omnipresent, which means your God must be everything at once, which means everything must be God, which means only that God can exist in the world, which means time also cannot exist. If that God is the only thing in existence, we couldn't be having this conversation right now.

>>12526566
And by default state I don't mean that's how it's been throughout history, I only mean that if we were to describe the world as plainly as possible without making any assumptions, we wouldn't logically be able to say there is a god, for lack of evidence. By arguing for the existence of a god, you're making a claim, and claims need to be supported.

>>12526736
I'm sorry man, I already told you, God isn't logical in the way we think it is. Consider just for a moment God exists and he is omnipotent. You'd have to admit that you can't understand or judge something omnipotent since you are not omnipotent.
Anyways this isn't a proof God exists. I can't prove it the way we prove everything, but if you seek the lord you shall find him, I promise you

>>12526736
>which means time also cannot exist
Where the fuck did you pull this from?
Everything up until that statement was fine, no problem with god's omnipresence. That is a central tenet of multiple religions.

>>12526724
>why did it become so popular?
Again, I'd just say that something being popular does not mean it is true. For example, the earth is not the center of the universe, despite that being the popular explanation for most of recorded history.
As to the various physical artifacts you've mentioned, I'm not familiar with any of these, and I think a non spectacular explanation would be infinitely more likely than a spectacular one. Or do you believe Apollo exitsed because the oracle still stands?

>>12526754
>Consider just for a moment God exists and he is omnipotent.
Then I am God, because God is all that exists then, so I too am God. If not, I don't exist, and this is all an illusion that God has self-imposed in himself.

>>12526757
How do you fathom the existence of time if there is only one thing in existence? There is no possibility for change then. The entire mechanism of time is obsolete if there are not at least two things which can interact with one another.

>>12526767
Answer the question.
Why did it become so popular?

>>12526775
Existential dread? Sense of community? Lots of options, but it's irrelevant to my argument, as again, popularity != veracity

>>12526774
A single thing doesn't equal a singularity, one thing can have many aspects. Even the science of matter tends towards a universal theory that explains all existence as being alike.

You lack imagination and as a result are prey to the most mundane fallacies.

>>12526797
Existential dread - There existed other religions before that took care of that nicely
Sense of community - Roman mythology did a better job than Christianity on that ground before Christianity became mainstream
Lots of options - Not really
If I were to tell you that you could be forever happy but you had to throw yourself to a pack of lions would you do it?

>>12526815
"You lack imagination" i.e. I don't make massive assumptions like you do and throw all thought to the wind in exchange for a comforting premise. I actually explore what all this shit means. I explained already how in a universe where an omniscient thing exists, it must be an infinite thing, i.e. it MUST be a singularity. There is no working around it, except with "imagination," which is another word for ignorance here.

I wish Christians on here would realize that Nietzsche's annihilation of their belief system was the fruit of THEIR labor. They literally sowed the seeds of their own demise. The Antichrist was born from their wishes for him. We wouldn't have a philosophy that perfectly opposes theirs without theirs.

>>12526862
>throw all thought to the wind in exchange for a comforting premise
On the contrary that seems to be exactly what you are doing. The chance of there being a real "god" is miniscule and the very idea of religion is, to its greatest practitioners, a framework to explore the human psyche.

To say that Christian theology is comforting in 2019 is pretty laughable considering only the virtually disabled are genuine believers today.

>>12526827
I can muse on this idea a bit I suppose, but I'm far from a theologian.
My guess would be that while the greek/roman gods were more real, in that they were of this world, and regularly came down to the realms of men, the christian god was on a level above that. He existed on a higher realm, strictly metaphysical, and therefore may have seemed superior to the greek/roman gods.
This higher power, combined with the threat of hell for non believers could have done a lot to convince people to convert, and even risk their lives. If they were convinced of an afterlife, that would make sense, as this life is only transitory, while heaven is forever.
Alternatively, the unifying power of a single god, as opposed to a couple dozen would have been good for social cohesion. Many Roman towns, while recognizing all the gods, would worship a single one much more than any of the others. This could lead to a fracturing of identity across a nation. I'm guessing the idea of unifying a people under the worship of a single god would do a lot to convince statesmen to push for conversion. It just works better for a country I think.
Whatever the explanation, I think it can be explained quite rationally.
Going to bed for now bro, I'll respond if you write back and this thread doesn't 404.

>>12525738
>Literally hurr durr science

>>12526904
>more powerful
Vikings would literally laugh at God because Jesus was crucified and dead
Furthermore God is far more alien to anyone than greek gods who sleep, drink, rape and kill
>threat of hell
If I told you to stop masturbating, fornicating and worshipping your parents and grandfathers and emperors gods or you'd go to hell would you do it?

>>12526901
>On the contrary that seems to be exactly what you are doing.
Then you don't understand where I'm coming from at all. With the absence of your God still comes incredible responsibility on the individual, and a need to be highly entrepreneurial. Perspective, in the absence of your God, becomes a karmic reflection of the quantum of power that you are in the universe, and a necessity to be able to tangle with THIS reality. Weakness breeds ideologies best suited for the weak, in other words, and likewise for strength and the strong. With or without your God, the individual is still accountable for everything that happens.

>To say that Christian theology is comforting in 2019 is pretty laughable considering only the virtually disabled are genuine believers today.
I don't think that's right for everyone who are still genuine believers today. However, those that are "virtually disabled," or disadvantaged in our society today, are genuine believers, particularly because it gives them something to work with to get further ahead in it.

Can't I just live a secular life with Christian principles about meekness and compassion without needing to believe in a sky friend?

>>12526954
The worst of both worlds? You should do exactly the opposite.

>>12526967
So live a fake life that doesn't conform in any way to any value upheld by Christianity while giving lipservice to it? I'd rather not be a modern American Evangelist, sorry.

>>12525738
Holy shit what a retarded post scientist personalities are actually this stupid. "Science is better than theology because we don't have any answers!" I'm baffled he would own himself like that, exposing his total misunderstanding of philosophy and theology.

>>12525894
you may be asexual

>>12522686
Most atheists are agnostics, so nah

>>12527877
But they do worship around the Mammon totems. They just don't know what they are doing, because Mammon isn't a god that requires your knowledge to exist.

>>12523135
>Atheism isn't a belief system. it's an absence of a particular belief system.
Wrong. It's very strongly opined belief system with core dogma that there is no God. Derived from that absolute belief came political religions most notably communism which always had the mystic mission of building paradise on earth with known consequences which repeated over and over at least since Paris Commune that was also founded on atheism and belief in humanist ideals where human is measure of everything. Bible warned against that with tale of Tower of Bable, where humanity united in common purpose could "now do anything", keeping in mind humanity's track record of wickedness and flawedness. Christianity smartly discards earthly utopia building by leaving it to Jesus Christ when time is right and that time is solely in hands of God, ensuing survivability and adaptability of Christian civilization as it is not fixated to earthly dogma.

>>12522706
Muh ancestors

>>12522386

Why would you wanna do that? You can't force someone to have faith, believing is something else than knowing. Read Kierkegaard, the parable of the Prince that wants to marry a common girl. People that like to "debate" on religion are fedora-tier people that deserve pity.

>>12522443
>lemonade
>cola
>tortilla chips
>tortilla chips

Proof that asexuality is cope for ugly fatties.

>>12526925
Well the christian god is still more powerful as he created the entire universe, and is omnipotent soooo.
And I would probably stop doing those things if I was threatened by an omnipotent, omnipresst super being who created the universe.

>>12528812
Then stop doing them

>>12522820
>be a pretty cool guy
>die
>turns out there’s an afterlife
>suffer forever for not being a pretty cool guy in church on sundays
>some coward who went solely out of fear is rewarded
Sure thing, anon.

>>12524514
>But ever seen a practicing atheist who doesn't believe in money?
Stupid question. Yeah, there’s a lot of overlap among Marxists and atheists.

>>12528999
Not sure if it's clear or not, but I don't believe in god...

>>12526982
>So live a fake life that doesn't conform in any way to any value upheld by Christianity while giving lipservice to it?
What are you talking about? The Bible is clear that you should seek God and have belief in Christ

>>12525887
thanks to the advances of science humans know there are no zebras on the moon
there is no real way of knowing that there is no god

can science explain consciousness?

>>12530318
yes, easily.

it's neuro-chemical processes in the brain.

>>12530259
Ok, well that wasn't the point of the analogy, it was just to say that I shouldn't need to defend my belief that something which has no evidence for its existence, does not exist.

>>12526651
Basically yes, a theist has nothing to gain from arguing with atheists. Debate itself is premised by atheism (ie lacking knowledge) and no reasoned argument can make someone believe in God, so what can a theist possibly achieve other than making a fool of himself?

>>12528812
Stop thinking of God as a literally incarnate Sky Daddy, it's pretty cringey

>>12530613
What are you talking about man? Are you a Christian?
Evangelism has been part of Christianity since the very beginning, you think most people convert themselves or are enlightened by others? And you also think that theologians haven't used logic and Reason to understand Christianity and help non-believers understand as well? What facilities does the human species have to understand if not through logic and Reason? Human faith is never unfounded, it is a basic flaw in our nature and possible a consequence of original Sin. Not everyone can experience religious ecstasy or visions, and when's the last time you witnessed a miracle.

>>12530633
You shouldn't presume to know how I imagine the concept of god, it's so cringy

This nigga

>>12523855
Swords beaten into plowshares. You can take just about any passage with a word you want in it and turn it into a talking point.

>>12530758
>you think most people convert themselves or are enlightened by others
No, I think most people go to congregations, take the scripture at face value and don't think particularly hard about it after that. There is value in that step and due to Christ's sacrifice you don't have to do much else for salvation, it doesn't give you a better understanding of God.

It is a bit heretical but for the most part the missionaries and theologians have missed the point entirely when they have brought God into the domain of earthly reason because he usually lives outside of it.

You don't need to have visions and miracles (which are dubious even in the Bible) to experience the Divine. If I'm honest that idea is as unhelpful as the theologians who try to use reason to prove God's existence. Expecting to see a grand miracle is a vain wast of time, but looking for God in extraordinary every-day occurences can be fruitful. Something doesn't have to be grand to be miraculous.

>>12522386
Any books that talks about consciousness in humans, the idea of consciousness is what pulled towards an all knowing creator.

>>12531358

>>12531358
https://www.amazon.com/Cognitive-Approach-Conscious-Machines-Haikonen/dp/0907845428

>>12526724
not even the pope believes the holy mantle anymore...

>>12522425
The Pope is such a fag

>>12522425
How does the Pope manage to successfully convey the most rigid and strong religion on the planet into something so meek?

>>12522706
Holy shit that picture just made me seriously doubt my belief in evolution

>>12522706
>my ancestors

>>12522386
There are none.

6 SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS

>>12522386
1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV
17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV
1] And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2] For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3] And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 ESV]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:16)

>>12522386
I don't think you should worry about it. People are given faith by God, not by logical arguments. Apologetics is more for the comfort of the faithful, I think.

>>12533961
This


These types of threads are stupid. The /Catholic/ or /Orthodox/ literature threads are all we need than these dumb "debate" threads.

>>12522386
atheism is alogical as a religion (yes it is a religion).
If it is impossible to prove that god exists, then it is just as impossible to disprove his existence.
So by following atheism you are willingly believing the worst case scenario.

>>12522706
evolution is so fucking stupid

>>12534039
It would be nice to have some decent Protestant discussion here as well but certain people tend to derail any attempt at it.

>>12534049
We haven't actually had a /ProtestantLit/ thread. I've only seen a Catholic and an Orthodox in the past few weeks. It would be nice to see one soon.

>>12534051
I was just talking about discussion in general, not a specific thread, but yes that would be nice.

>>12529114
read the letter to the romans and dont just assume how god works.
Who are you to know after all?

>>12529114
Let's rephrase that to fit reality
>be an evil sinner
>die
>turns out I have to answer for all of my sins
>suffer forever for rejecting my creator and living a godless, unholy, sinful life
>some coward who repented of his sins and turned to god for mercy is rewarded

>>12522386
>see atheist girl with the harry potter triangle thing tattoo
>tell her if she understands the bible she can easily predict where the books will go from the beginning
BTFO'd

>>12531241
my point is that humans who aren't necessarily born into Christian society or family, or have become apostate, might not respond to anything other than reason. It might be useless from a spiritual perspective to bring God into the physical realm, but if the end result of a true believer than it doesn't really matter does it? I think that humans are naturally flawed and blind and believing "because I went to church every day as a kid and mommy and daddy and the preacher said God was real" is no more or less "valid" than believing because you've been convinced by missionaries

And your whole last paragraph is something that you've explained to me through reason. Reason is really the only way imperfect, post-Fall mortals have of understanding these things. When we lost connection to God it becomes a constant worldly struggle to regain it, which is why a Church exists in the first place

There's none because theism is a massive cope. Most people are too weak to deal with the truth. Study history + psychology to understand how religion happened.

>>12534283
>theism is a massive cope.
Theism is a fully integrated behavioral model tied to our societal, moral and goal-oriented behaviors. Theism has shaped human populations a great deal, to the point every human starts out as some manner of theist, and has done so for all of history. Now, it is still fully possible that it is an error in our perception, similar to mirages (body tells you to keep going or you'll die, or hyperactive facial recognition), but it isn't cope outside of the biological adaptability it has allowed.
>Most people are too weak to deal with the truth.
This sounds like cope for someone spiritually castrated. Feigning supremacy despite having less full experience of life.

>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html
>https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html

>>12534043
/lit/ everybody

>>12534331
>>12534043
Stupid things happen all the time. You should know this by now.

>>12534274
>humans who aren't necessarily born into Christian society or family, or have become apostate, might not respond to anything other than reason.
Fear, pain, suffering, pleasure, intuition do cause some behavioral changes despite their irrationality. Humans, atheists and psychological defense structures especially are exceedingly irrational.

>>12534322
>Theism is a fully integrated behavioral model tied to our societal, moral and goal-oriented behaviors. Theism has shaped human populations a great deal, to the point every human starts out as some manner of theist, and has done so for all of history.
It's easier to control vast amounts of people by using religion as a political and social tool. And how did it all started anyway? Because of our lack of understanding the world and nature. We were vulnerable to natural disasters so as a way to ensure our survival, we started to believe that something greater than ourselves was in full control of our lives. We started to perform rituals and sacrifices to appease them so that the rain would drop or the Nile would raise to irrigate the crops. It was also much easier to believe that we weren't alone and that our love would keep existing after death in a spiritual form. In a way, religion was the desire to transcend our physical world and connect to the spiritual world.
And as for kids being born believers, I have been aware of those claims for several years. The logical conclusion is that either it's a consequence of their ancestors being believers for so long that we are just predisposed to believe in the same thing or it's just a nurture thing. We are still barely rational animals trying to deal with our complex brains.

>>12523937
not him, but the evil god argument, or the meme of agnostic heaven (pic related).

ie, if a god exists that punishes those who believe without proof.
why would he do that? perhaps because he is "evil"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_God_Challenge

>>12534399
>It's easier to control vast amounts of people by using religion as a political and social tool.
There are no groups of people without shared beliefs because beliefs shape perception and goals. No shared goals, no shared identity. Control over this isn't a bad thing. If your arms and your head worked on different goals, it would be horrible.
Likewise, atheism is just memetic cancer.
>And how did it all started anyway?
It is the way people see the world. It was passed down and written, thought about and struggled through. Of course, experienced heavily. Under prayer, stress, psychedelics, rituals, mantras, in nature, in love... You might want to try any of those.
>And as for kids being born believers, I have been aware of those claims for several years.
Humans are not naturally atheists. Atheism is not a neutral, standard position.
>The logical conclusion is that either it's a consequence of their ancestors being believers for so long that we are just predisposed to believe in the same thing
God is believed in the same way we believe in colors, ourselves, morality, law... If you lack the ability to perceive any of them, despite them not being 'scientific fact', you are treated as an outcast. Atheism is a type of blindness.
>or it's just a nurture thing.
There's no tabula rasa. You might want there to be, so that you couldn't be responsible of your own life (but that would be the end for that control argument).

Memes, religion and culture have shaped genetics the same way hunger and the desire to breed has. Single cell organisms that didn't feel any urge to do either perished. Theism is life affirming.

>>12522849
depression will do the trick

>>12534424
The existence of God is obvious; people disbelieve because of sin, not evidence.
>Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
>19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
>20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
>22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
That being said, God is good because he reveals to us that he is good. This cannot be a lie because there is no higher court of appeal than the word of God, which is the supreme arbiter of truth. Therefore if God were to lie, that lie would constitute the truth, which would thus make it not a lie, which is an impossibility -- therefore God cannot lie.

>>12534099
>live an full life rife with sin
>repent on deathbed after 90 years of happy sinning
>get into heaven the same as someone who prostrated themselves to the church for 90 years
wew

>>12525609
critical thinking ability is called programming now?

>>12534550
That's insane. Your god is a very petty person. Like a child abusing his pets, in need of a stern talking to.

>>12534550
Lol. This faggot.
>God is good cuz god is god, it's so fucking simple duh.
My dick is 11" because it is, and this cannot be a lie, because god told me it is, and he is perfect.

>>12534661
Read culture of Critique and think. One sided critique where you shame or ignore the opposition isn't exactly critique.
>>12534698
Or your sense of childishness is twisted in some manner. Not that uncommon these days. After all, we are temporary.

>>12534647
What is your complaint? That if you came earlier you deserve something more? From the God who has sacrificed him Son that you could be reconciled and granted eternal life, you demand something extra because you got there earlier? As if you deserved any of his mercy to begin with? Or is the complaint that all should have to work equally? Would it be better that the demands of God were increased so that even fewer people could be saved? What is this but deluded pride?

Matt. 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

>>12534789
There is no arguing with religion because of how it works on faith instead of proof.
Inevitably it breaks down to "well you can't PROVE god doesn't exist, so there"

>>12522386
You both argue for the improvable.
Agnosticism is the true way.

>>12534698
>>12534703
>>12534844
>Refute something an atheist says
>They respond not by continuing the conversation but by complaining about some entirely different subject
>Eventually try to take the high ground and say argument isn't possible
Every time

>wanting to be a Christian

Christian's are either meek faggots, or arrogant obnoxious racists

>>12534912
t. arrogant obnoxious bigot

>>12534896
I just rephrased what you said to show how ridiculous it was you retard.

>>12534951
No, you simply didn't understand the argument that I made and thought that replacing it with something vulgar would make some kind of point.

>>12522443
le ebin

>>12522386
William lane craig is probably the most accessible. Known for reviving the cosmological argument. If you're serious about digging in to philosophy and you're not just in it to show up brainlet athiests, then read richard swinburne and alvin plantinga. Swinburne has a Bayesian argument for the truth of Christianity, and Plantinga has lots of subtle and intelligent material. He offered a modal ontological argument for god's existence, he's generally considered to have definitively buried the logical problem of evil (for an entertaining back and forth look at the papers back and forth between him and michael tooley), his best contribution tho imo is working out how considerations about epistemology in general show that belief in theism is rational. If you let me know what you're interested in I can link you to specific papers and arguments.

>>12534973
kys faggot, you literally said 'god is good because he reveals himself to us'. That's the most meaningless drivel I've ever read.

>>12534424
If God is evil, and sends us to Hell for whatever reason, then we need not worry about that God. If God punishes those who believe in Him, then that God is obviously flawed and not the true God, since he punishes people for knowing the truth. Atheists invent all these crutches to fall back on to support their disbelief but everyone knows that the Christian God is far more probable, especially considering the existence of Jesus, the prophecies, etc. What’s more, believing in God will benefit you in THIS life far more than being an atheist will.

>>12526587
You’ve obviously been indoctrinated into Christianity since your birth. Without reason, we cannot decide which religion to place our faith in. A Muslim who thinks like you will never be converted to Christianity.

>>12535430
Christians are just dirty neckbeards who spend all day posting alt-right memes and browsing /pol/, they are dirty heathens who are not to be envied

Christianity is a vehicle for pedophilia

>>12535448
Surely they could be better Christians? Surely it is possible for someone to claim to follow a certain religion or philosophy while not yet adhering fully to its doctrine.

>>12530259
So if there weren't the advances of science you would believe there were zebras on mars?

>>12534042
Most atheists are agnostics, this rebuttal is pretty retarded my mate.

>it is a religion
It is a position on an issue. There are some groups of people who organize around this shared position. And some of those groups have similar aspects to religious groups. But that does not make the position itself a religion. Brainlet.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/atheism.html
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/god.html

>>12535550
either way no advance in science has (or can) disprove god

>>12535430
You don't even understand what you speak of when you say 'God'. As if God is a knowable person with cognitive faculties who's existence conveniently adheres to man's conception of perfection. God is nothing more than the infinite being that created the universe, but knowing that this is the necessary state of being that God must exist as (i.e. In a state of being completely unrestrained) then the only conclusion one can come to is that 'God' does not exist. And speaking of God as the Christian God is completely unintelligible as the god presented in the Bible is anything but infinite in all regards. Notions of perfection do not apply to God, only the notion of infinity can apply to such an entity. An atheist does not need to worry about the numerous conceptualizations of the afterlife because no immaterial thing can exist as a plane of existence, this conclusion following from the non-existence of any god.

>>12535608
>no advance in science has (or can) disprove god
Depends on your definition of god.

>you can't prove X does not exist
>therefore X exists
And that's an irrational argument in the first place. The set of of things you can imagine but not disprove is endless. If you actually applied this maxim to any other part of your life then you would be utterly dysfunctional. You would believe in every kobold, demon, fairy and ghost story told to you, regardless of how ridiculous.

The rational approach is to assume something does not exist until there is some form of evidence that indicates that it does exist.

>>12535655
I dunno man I never said that means God exists. Truth be told I haven't even read the entire thread, I don't know other anons arguments.

All I believe is that it's wrong to take god's non-existence as a fact, just as it is to take it as a fact. They're equally not right.

>>12535655
>you can't prove X does not exist
>therefore X exists
No one is making this argument. Since God can’t be proven or disproven, faith is justified.

>>12535676
How does that justify faith?

can you christcucks just accept the fact that you already lost a long time ago?

>>12535690
>>12535759
Having faith in God is better than nothing. It’s not about piling up proofs, but improving yourself and drawing nearer to perfection. Even if God doesn’t exist, it’s better to have faith in His existence.

>>12535676
See


>>12535624

>>12535829
Why

>>12535850
Believing in God, specifically the Christian God, gives you an objective framework to base your life on and give it meaning, hope, purpose. Its doctrine about avoiding sin is not only important but spiritually, but actually helps us in all matters of life, making us better in our careers and relationships. Someone who strictly follows the Bible will live a very happy and industrious life full of love and hope. Try it, and see for yourself, what happens when you humble yourself and seek after God, avoid sin, read the Bible, and pray. Because I did that and will never go back to atheism again.

>>12535896
You can't enforce a little of your own self discipline without all the ancillary noise?

>>12535896
This may be true, but few agnostics would deny this. They only reject the actually believing in god stuff, which is clearly nonsense.

>>12535910
I have faith that the Bible contains the perfect instructions. To rely on mere human systems is to rely on reason, which can be doubted and substituted within a week. It seems counter-intuitive to you, but faith can do what reason cannot, and give us a firm rock to stand on and live with steady vision. And as I said before, through living this lifestyle of faith, after searching for answers in all other places, I see no reason to become like I was once was, lost and confused.
>>12535933
>They only reject the actually believing in god stuff, which is clearly nonsense.
Why is it nonsense?

>>12535829
You can have an ideal to work towards without faith in a personal god and all of the ideological baggage that comes along with it.

>>12535896
>gives you an objective framework
It's not objective though. The basis of the framework is the subjective choice of faith in the Christian God.

And you can follow the supposed wisdom of the bible without adopting the faith. If the framework of life has the benefits you describe then you can adopt it for pragmatic reasons. "Do X because it is beneficial to you", instead of "do X because God said so". You can demonstrate those benefits scientifically and a rational person will adopt them without the need of any dogma.

Also it's not like the Christian system is the only framework that can offer stability of that kind. Stoicism (major influence to christianity btw) offers similar if not better life advice in my opinion. Some of the eastern philosophies are also quite functional.

>>12536018
>The basis of the framework is the subjective choice of faith in the Christian God.
I think we can use reason to make that decision.
>the framework of life has the benefits you describe then you can adopt it for pragmatic reasons. "Do X because it is beneficial to you", instead of "do X because God said so". You can demonstrate those benefits scientifically and a rational person will adopt them without the need of any dogma.
The problem is it’s hard to persist with those ideals without faith. It would be really easy to be drawn to another rational system and follow its ideals, too. The difference is that you have faith that the Bible is brought to us by God, meaning you can’t just rationally analyze each point, getting rid of some and keeping the others, etc. And it’s this faith in God, in souls, in heaven, in Jesus, that makes us more determined to follow these ideals.
>Stoicism
A system that tries to eliminate suffering by viewing the world with indifference and trying to derive fulfillment and joy from that indifference. In Christianity, you not only have the bad, but the good as well, and clearly defined courses of action. Buddhism and other eastern philosophies are the same. They’re all vague, empty, indifferent, and arbitrary (founded by rational methods). I tried Stoicism in my atheism phase, and I quit it within a week. Christianity has everything that Stoicism has and then some.

>>12536092
> It would be really easy to be drawn to another rational system and follow its ideals, too.
>The difference is that you have faith that the Bible is brought to us by God, meaning you can’t just rationally analyze each point, getting rid of some and keeping the others, etc.
Isn't that the better approach though? You can analyze the most functional systems (i.e. the long living religious traditions and the philosophies of the antiquity), take the best parts and remove the parts that don't work anymore in a contemporary context.

I don't see why you need to stay true to just one of them.

>indifference
Well the stoic "indifferences" don't literally mean you are indifferent to them, it's just a term and a rather bad translation. It more specifically means things that are indifferent in an ethical consideration because they are outside of your control. But I guess this gets too much off topic.

>>12535439

>Argue against Pascal's wager as stupid, even within the framework of Christianity
>Implying that means I'm muslim OR Christian

I'm taking aim at bad rhetoric, not a faith.

>>12535023
Came here to say this. Dr WLC is top notch.

>>12523937
There's nothing wrong with having faith. Faith is beautiful. But you can have faith in anything you choose. So why not have faith in Human Compassion? Or Existential Peace? Or the Emperor?

>>12522386
The Catechism Explained: An Exhaustive Explanation of the Catholic Religion

Just read this.

>>12522386
Anyone but aqu*Nas

>>12537591
Or have faith in the greatest possible thing

>>12522386
atheists are dumb and myopic. Try refuting a gnostic or dystheist.

>>12534647
I believe you're implying (possibly even unwittingly) that the man who repented on his deathbed was playing the system. The man who truly repents is not doing this. It's possible you know this one, but your argument obviously extends to the notion that all forgiveness in general is foolish

>>12537803

>>12537954
I'm coming from the perspective that religion is a tool to help humans live better, happier lives in harmony with their fellow man.

Just going to leave this here for theistbabbies to rage at (and be unable to refute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1c_GlAjvy4

I think we're making headway with staunching this christcuck meme. Stay strong. Hopefully things will go back to normal soon.

>>12537803
this

>>12538099
Physics has nothing to do with theology. The fact is Christianity is the best religion on Earth and it makes people happy and there’s nothing wrong with having faith in something that can’t be proven or disproven. Everyone who actually reads the Bible and follows its word will come to know the truth, especially by humbling themselves, avoiding sin, and praying. Atheists can’t refute anything. Their words are just a display of pride and arrogance.

>>12538104

>>12538241
I don't read anime.

>>12534550
What proof do you have that the bible is true?
>>12535430
What proof is there of the christian god?

Most, if not all, religious seem to put together their own network of circular beliefs.

ie, my religious scripture is correct because god sent it, i know god sent it because my scripture says so.

I can't be bothered to type out a whole well constructed argument, there are some wiki articles and actual journal articles which summarize a large portion of what i would write
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hold_come_what_may
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Dogmas_of_Empiricism

This idea of what god must be like based on circular arguments, or flawed axioms, is also pretty dumb imo

Saying if a creator exists, and an afterlife exists, that a creator or afterlife must follow certain rules based on our own choice of axioms seems very intellectually dishonest.

Also, to add to this schizophrenic post im writing, the idea of the problem of evil seems similar to the idea of a god who can lie or an evil god. ie, god wont lie because i think thats bad, but god will allow evil in the world?

anyways, this has been a literal shitpost, typing while on the toilet

>>12537803
>Gnosticism
This is difficult, and I don't necessarily even want to do it. I'm pondering on whether I should be Orthodox Christian or Hermetic Gnostic. However, I would go about it through elevating the material existence. The birth of the Universe gave rise to matter, from which stars and planets formed. These stars pulse energy, material and light into the Universe, and the planets house complex systems of matter. All of this being 'matter' in the broad sense. Sometimes these materials behave in a curious fashion, becoming chemical compounds. All according to a principle need of an atom; to reach the octet state. This need is justified in that it will eventually form suitable ground for life and organic compounds, among and not excluding other forms and developments. Life forms around experience. Hunger. The desire to breed. Fear. The list goes on. Eventually these urges, like the octet structure of before, give rise to new things. Conscious things, merciful things, mindful things. Likewise, these have a desire for God - to justify the desires to exist.

>Dystheism
Depends on your god. Satan is the god of this world said Jesus of Nazareth.

>>12538441
>What proof is there of the christian god?
Jews are so evil they need a counterbalance. Aryans are too gullible and stupid to be good, but they've approached the aesthetic of good well.

>>12524288
Stupid

Many religions claim their way is the only way, Christianity is just the biggest and most familiar to you

>>12522386
*tips

>>12538560
>Many religions claim their way is the only way
Do they, now?

>>12522386
How Christ said "do not resist evil" but Atheists resist religion

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/faith.html

>>12523927
These all look like pop religious books that offer no real refutation or argument.

>>12522386
It isn't possible to refute atheism in the same way atheists can't actually disprove religion.

>>12538631
All fertile beliefs will outlive atheists.

Has anyone ever actually been convinced to change their position as a result of these arguments? Whether you believe or not will be a result of personality + circumstance more than anything else, yet meme lords insist on muh ebin debates.

>>12538657
>Has anyone ever actually been convinced to change their position as a result of these arguments?
People tend to lose their faith in the certainty of their own positions more often than flipping to the other side. After that it's up to the spirits to guide them.

>>12522386
Christianity is Judaism's Islam.
>you earn your way into heaven vs all you need is belief in Jesus

>>12538667
Judaism doesn't predate Christianity.

>>12533947

(you)

>>12535572
The question was to refute atheistism, not agnostics. Raw undefined atheism is the disprove of any god at all.

Also if you define religion by "a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion" (definition used by google) then atheism is by all means a religion.

>unironiacally calls people brainlet
Please locate nearest rope

Atheism can last till death, upon which it will be confirmed that this person always was an npc.

>>12522686
Even if everything you said is true and making people believe in a higher power is useful in achieving productivity, it says nothing about whether god actually exists.

>>12538511
Good post

>>12525780
No it isnt

>>12530385
lol, explain quaila then

>>12539104
qualia are products of the brain, like digestion is a product of the stomach.
Next.

>>12539306
Lol that explains nothing you pseud

>>12522443
>>>/discord/

>>12539306
digestion can be observed, quaila can’t