/lit/ - Literature

>>12499107

Why does this even need to be illustrated or explained?
You're not gonna convince anyone that doesn't already know.

>>12499107
Because if capitalism fails to create an utopia, as socialism would, then not only everything bad that happens under capitalism is capitalism fault but also everything that is good but could be better. It's a system for conformists. Fuck capitalism.

>>12499107
Op, how would a small country be able to produce all the same things as another country? Wouldn't a country like Costa Rica have to severely damage it's ecological resources to have a living standard even close to a European country if it was unable to take advantage of a globalized economy?

>>12499107
Hollywood makes shit films that are somehow wildly financially successful, belle delphine makes 120k a month for poking her tongue out

>>12499983
This. In socialism all art would be kino.

>>12499983
>I don't understand the most fundamental basic of any economy which is supply and demand
Okay, go read Basic Economy by Sowell.

>>12499107
Why are you setting out to prove it's bad when you dont even know how it works or why there aren't any alternatives? Read Basic Economics by Sowell, learn economics objectively, and then come to your own conclusion (assuming you're capable of that and not ideologically possessed)

>>12499946
This. I can't understand why someone would prefer a flawed system like capitalism over a literal utopia. Is greed human greed so big they prefer to live in an imperfect society as long as someone else has less than to live in a perfect world? It just doesn't make sense.

>>12500055
Because capitalists are pigs. They don't understand of common sense or logic. Much less of humanity. Trying to reason with them is a waste of time. Capitalists get the bullet.

>>12499983
>belle delphine makes 120k a month for poking her tongue out
Okay? So somebody finds it useful to pay her 120k per month, what exactly is the problem here?

>>12500055
>>12500092
No, it's because people actually want to survive and everytime you fucking idiots try to experiment your retarded theories you play with the lives of millions of people and so far you've fucked up every single time
Now fuck off, go do socialism in your shitty minecraft servers as far away from my family as possible

>>12500223
You understand real socialism has never been tried right? I know saying this has become a meme but it's true nonetheless. Every attempt has been hijacked by the same greed and individualism that is common place in capitalism.

So no book recommendations?

>>12500326
So it's just failed every time it has been attempted. Not really a good argument.

>>12500326
>everytime we attempt to do this it goes wrong
>everytime we try it goes wrong and people die
>let's just try again

>>12500055
I think utopians are naive and dangerous. Setting up your end goal as a "perfect society" leaves a lot of leeway for whatever means are necessary to achieve that. Just look at that other poster "capitalists get the bullet". I'm sure somebody like that would make the perfect person to introduce a socialist state into the world. With people like him leading this new utopia, I cant wait

>>12499107
Well the main issue with industrial production is that our planet is becoming uninhabitable as a result. We need to burn massive amounts of fossil fuels to produce the goods a capitalist economy demands, because we artificially create demand etc. It's going to kill us and there is seriously no argument that GDP/production are tied to emissions.

This Changes Everything by Naomi Klein is a good intro

>>12500326
The revolutionary nature of the process by which capitalism is uprooted naturally leads to totalitarianism as a means of stabilisation, and this quickly becomes normalised into a permanent state. Invariably, the revolution does not precede but rather supersedes its own goal.

>>12500223
The only reason you think the current system is better is because you haven't been exploited in the way much of the world has by global capitalism. Do you think all of the foreign interventions and international law breaking by the United States (and the support of their allies, meaning you yuropoors) is just out of malice? It isn't. It's driven by capital. People have experienced far worse than the socialist hellscape you've conjured in your mind, you're just lucky enough to find yourself in a place where you can ignore it.

>>12499946
Socialism fails just as hard a capitalism.

>>12499995
Which is why socialism isn't worth having

>>12500326
It's never been tried because every time it's attempted, people have either fled or died.
So much for humanity.

>>12500386
What will socialism do to change this? If countries are reduced to becoming the slave labor states of first world countries, what will socialism do to uplift these countries out of their conditions? Serious question

>>12500386
So for you capitalism is imperialism ?
Also congress has to approve this Interventions and many congressmen have a Israeli American double nationality

>>12500386
Not him but I don't care about them. At all. If it comes to that here I will die fighting.
>So the other day, I went to go pay cash for my brand new Lexus
>And the rims I ordered, they put the wrong fuckin rims on
>It's like when I'm going into a restaurant to eat
>I can't sit down without some son-of-a-bitch kid coming up to me
>And saying "Hey! Sign this! Sign this!"
>Why don't you sign my cock you little bastard
>I'm trying to eat a fuckin meal here
>I don't care if you buy my records
>Get the fuck out of here before I punch your cock
>I'm sponsored by Adidas
>And what do I give a fuck if little philipino kids work for 15 cents a year to make these god damn shoes
>They look great!
>You put on a pair of Adidas and a brand new fuckin fur coat and you are stylin'
>And let's face it, that's what this business is all about
>STYLE!

>>12500426
>if little philipino kids work for 15 cents a year
I know you're memeing but why people get outraged about this? It's certainly better than working on the fields. What alternative you propose? Not let them work? Pay them as much a western worker making the entire point of oppening a fabric there pointless?

>>12500415
I didn't say socialism would magically uplift all of the nations of the earth, but without market forces as we currently conceive of them influencing every aspect of foreign policy you wouldn't be seeing the mass exploitation and destabilization of foreign resource rich nations, it would also end another massive motivator for senseless imperialist wars, the military industrial complex. The necessity of intervention would actually be determined by ethical concerns instead of capital concerns.

>>12500419
They're inextricably linked, one feeds the other and imperialism inevitably turns its instruments of oppression homeward.

>>12500426
Amorality and capitalism, name a more idiotic and destructive duo.

>>12499107
Please define capitalism.
Capitalism means so many different things.
To a Marxist, it's a stage of civilization.
To the right, it's positive attitude towards market economics.
To the left, it's what most people would call "crony capitalism".
To a libertarian, it's an uncoerced exchange.
To freshmen, it's a way for rich people to keep more money than they deserve.

Please fucking stop being so vague you shit for brains fucktards.

>Charts, flowcharts
If you get your politics/economics from meme charts, you will have meme-tier understanding.

>>12499946
Socialists are so fucking stupid I can’t tell whether you’re joking or being genuine.

>>12500456
You aren't defining differences in how capitalism is defined. You're defining attitudes toward it. You think you're smart enough to be calling other people "braintards?"

>>12500452
Morals are subjective. Its not my fault that southeast asians were enslaved by other southeast asians, if anyone attempts to enslave me I will fight back until the death. In a just world no other race would have to exist beside white beauty and accomplishment, forever relegated to the green eyed monster. We should have killed them all a century ago.

>>12500448
I don't give a fuck if capitalism has "improved" their lives. They still live like shit and it's capitalism fault. It's unfair we get to live comfortable lives while they have to work like if they were still living in the 19th century. I would honestly prefer if they lived worse by themselves and working in the fields than living slightly better but under capitalism. This fucking system is inhumane.

>>12500448
I'm not memeing that's a good fucking song/album.

>>12500466
Hahaha jesus christ stormfags are so lame. Have fun LARPing as a crusader while the grown ups discuss actual ideas champ.

>>12500452
How does ending imperialist attitudes help actual wage slaves though? In countries that arent as rich in resources but are kept afloat by their cheap labor, how does socialism help them?

>>12500326
You know the definition of madness?

>>12500480
That is a complete non-sequitor. What ideas? The chinese control china. Its not my concern. They effectively stole those american jobs because if they tried to pay american workers $1 washington would be genocided. You live in a fucktarded fantasy land where "no real socialism" has been tried for over 100 years. I can promise you if you retards manage to venezuala the united states you are going to be skinned alive.

>>12500496
I disagree with the guy you're responding to, but what you just said is the corniest shit I've ever read.

>>12500465
>You aren't defining differences in how capitalism is defined. You're defining attitudes toward it.
If you actually think this, we're talking about two different things.

>>12500448
>making a stranger's crappy shoe for a copper coin belonging to a country across the globe is better than rural farming for simple survival
what do you mean "not let them work?"

>>12499107
Debt.

Also global shipping contributes several hundred times the pollution that all of the world's cars do and every smart person leaving their shithole country sets that country back and perpetually keeps it locked in its shithole situation.

>>12500505
Corny is fun

>>12500513
>making a stranger's crappy shoe for a copper coin belonging to a country across the globe is better than rural farming for simple survival
It is. That's why they prefer to do that than working on the field.
>what do you mean "not let them work?"
Not let children work as we do in the west.

>>12500524
This is the other thing these disingenuos faggots always fail to realize. America'a ancestors already dealt with industrialization, it was the same shitty conditions. Its on the chinese to figure it out.

>>12499995
Only good DEFA film was Paul and Paula

>>12500551
Shut up. We are not living in the past anymore. There's no moral justification to let our fellow humans suffer now because our ancestors suffered in the past. It's the 21st century. Let's act like it.

>>12500518
I know a guy who graduated from school in environmental science who was testing water at a facility. He quite that job to make more money selling pallets of raw gems (probably mined with child labor) from countries like pakistan to wookies on facebook that he has shipped across the ocean. He is also a retarded berniebro socialist and had the lack of self-awareness to protest oil pipelines.

>>12499995
It's no surprise that all good artists are leftist. Right wingers can't into art. They only can make for profit and experience it for escapism.

>>12500563
>giving jobs to poor people in shitholes
>oh no! how evil!

>>12500558
Fuck you faggot. I have no obligation to anyone. They can't even prove they sent me jury summons. Spitting on the graves of your genetic lineage because of spooky subjectivity. Pathetic. I bet you're an atheist? Lover of the theory of evolution?

>>12500563
weird flex, but okay.

>>12500568
>good artists
Oh boy this should be good go ahead and name some.

>>12500572
Its more the last part that makes that post have a point.

>>12500579
He is right that most artists lean very left but most artists are also completely retarded outside of their craft and embarrassingly dumb. Authors are an exception but if you had a wide social circle you probably noticed the more artistic were weird and often slow.

>>12500524
>It is. That's why they prefer to do that than working on the field.
meanwhile at the apple HQ trapeze safety net

>>12500585
Most art these days is either of cartoon characters or just single lines on a canvas.

Here's your art. That'll be 44 million dollars.

>>12500595
I've known dozens of musicians and quite a few sculpors and painters and they may be very fine people but like 95% of them lean extreme left and are not sharp

>>12500585
>art is mere appearance

lol

>>12500604
Why would they be? Even most people on the right are pretty dumb. Very few people posses the ability to challenge their own convictions and actually know why they believe what they do.

>>12500326
Socialism falling apart doesnt mean its never been tried, it means its never been successful.

You idiots spend 1,000s of hours reading books and yet you don't realize that your overly complex ideas for a perfect society doesn't work because you don't understand anything about humanity, your theories are wrong and history has debunked you
They weren't "hijacked", you just failed to account for the fact that 100% of humans aren't perfect whereas capitalism does and that's why it's been the single dominant structure this entire time

>>12500595
I'd say you're about 60 years out of touch with contemporary art pal

They're not, you fucking commie

>>12500609
This doesn't actually mean anything, its just "I'm smarter than everyone" posturing. There is not a single human being that has challenged every conviction they hold.

>>12500595
What >>12500656 said, paint and canvas of any form has been out of galleries for decades
The concept of using paint and a canvas even if you're just painting a line is just as bad as painting a representational religious scene in the eyes of galleries.

It's all about making the most meaningless thing imaginable now almost in the hope that the gallery won't accept it because it's just too unartistic

>>12500669
I'm sorry but you're just as out as touch as he is
>paint and canvas of any form has been out of galleries for decades
Nothing about this is true. Have you ever been to a gallery?

I don't understand why so many people who obviously don't following contemporary art feel qualified to make sweeping statements about it

>>12500662
True, but the willingness to challenge some is still better than the refusal to challenge any.