/lit/ - Literature

Merrica is proud of its kulchur

And capitalism has caught on to this little corner of trash media. Quite lucrative now.
Simon Pegg wrote something about this. Is it worth a read, /lit/?

>>12482683
simon pegg is another pathetic manchild

>>12482690
Comedians are allowed
Socialist comedians more so

>>12482664
I don't know about your particular region, but in Spanish, comics are considered the 9th art form (literature is 6th, cinema is the 7th). Of course, not all comic books are art, the same with books and films, for instance, comercial shit like Marvel comics isn't art, but stuff like Persepolis, Une semaine de bonté, or The Frank Book are considered art. There's no such thing as "high art". There's good art, bad art, mediocre art, but first that thing must be considered art to begn with. And superhero shit isn't.

>>12482664
I actually don't know, considering they've produced some of the greatest actual artists.

>>12482717
>>12482664
Sorry I didn't see the "superhero" bit in your post subject. Just forget what I said.

>>12482664
America is a land of gratification and escapism. Higher thought is frowned up. It's easier to read a colorful book with pictures rather than read Hegel. Cervantes, Dante and Twain wrote great fiction, but feminization and mass marketing makes comics a common choice. Batman was the only comic character I ever enjoyed because unlike other characters he became what he is through training, discipline and stoicism. Normies like dumb shit like Marvel because it fits their dream of achieving anything without any hard work.

something something fetishization of individualism

>>12482664
It's part of American culture. Like McDonald's burgers

>>12482796
>something something fetishization of individualism

sounds more like putting your trust in a overpower ed being, nothing individualistic abou that, sheep mentality is a more apt term

>>12482664
There's not any fundamental characteristics of the medium that makes comics incapable of being art. I've read some artsy comics that would qualify as good, but of course 95% of comic books are utter shit.

The accusation of them being childish, while true, I find it silly. Nobody would say that watching shitty CSI tier shows is childish, but its quality is pretty much the same.

Also, people worship shitty musicians that beat their partners to a pulp, so people being sad about Mr. comic-book-of-my-infancy dying is ok in my book.

>>12482838

but they are self inserting as the hero

Pic related, how my roommates talk about this shit. I call them NPC’s to their faces

Because they don't read. Simple as that. They're the same people who complain about a stigma against cartoons while posting fanart of Steven Universe and Adventure Time on Twitter.

Do you know why there's a huge shitstorm every time something "politically incorrect" happens in media? Because the people participating in the outrage have never read or watched something aimed at a demographic higher than high 15-year-olds. That's why you see so many Harry Potter and Star Wars references in protests and political discussions, because it's literally the best they can come up with. In 10 or 15 years when the next generation of authoritarian politicians starts rising up, you're going to see comparisons to Thanos.

These people are, for all intents and purposes, culturally and intellectually bankrupt.

>>12482876
>higher than high 15-year-olds.
I meant older than 15-year-olds

>>12482876
>Because they don't read
My friends >>12482868
literally told me that JK Rowling is better than Shakespeare. She’s “one of the best writers of all time” they said.

>>12482876
I read. I'm in the middle of the republic right now. Crime and punishment was before that. I don't consider comic books high art but I like the super hero's dilemma of power and how to use it and the joker is one of the best characters in fiction because you have to kill him to stop him and that's what he wants anyway; to show you you are the monster you're fighting. He can't lose. That's what's so funny to him.

People can like accessible things.

>>12482664
America is interlaced with capitalism, transcendentalism, and democracy. These things combined create a culture that tries to respect everyone at the same exact time.

>>12482914
This. The joker is a timeless lesson. Today in america we have countless people who are belligerently clinging to ideologies that can only possibly ever survive if everyone is on board and everyone agrees and cooperates. Ideologies that can only survive in a safe space and would crumble if just one person decided to take advantage of the vulnerability. The joker is that guy and he's that guy just for the sake of being that guy. He's the reason there is no such thing as perfect government or economic balance or correct morals or incorruptible men. He just wanta to watch the world burn. He's the reason that for the sake of progress and sustainability, some people need to be killed, not even because he's "evil" but because he cannot be allowed.

>>12482807
>It's part of American culture.
Sure - just about the worst part of it.
>Like McDonald's burgers
McDonald's burgers are shit. I do not know anyone that finds McDonald's burgers to be high cuisine or comic books to be high literature.

The realm of popular culture has absorbed all creative work since the 50s. We have to treat it like it's meaningful art because it's all we have. The phenomenon is nothing new. Back in the 60s, Bob Dylan was appointed some sort of artistic folk hero when all he really did was kill off folk music for good.

When it comes to comics specifically, superheroes have become so dominant because they strongly resonate with the post-9/11 American psyche and can be used as means of advertising American military dominance to the rest of the world.They're pure propaganda.

>>12482664
They are the modern greek mythos.
>massive wave of rejecting God with the atheist movement of 90s and 00s
>being without God became a lifestyle
>adopt the idea that "only one life to live, gotta get the most pleasure from it before I die"
>voting retarded ideas
>shit goes wrong
>allowing gay people to marry didn't fix all the opression they faced
>always working towards something better isn't a common belief anymore
>this lack of striving and overcoming things isn't fulfilling the soul
>have to turn to tales to fulfill that desire
>something something t. Jung
It's a natural result I think. Instead of plays and musings of Zeus and Athena, it's the film productions of Avengers and Superman. I'm writing a dissertation on this which is much better written and more tied together logically.

>>12482876

this is a good analysis and i'll keep an eye out for the thanos reference

>>12482664
Maher's just doing this for attention. If Westerns were the big pop culture thing at the moment, he'd be crapping on them.

>>12482980
>I do not know anyone that finds McDonald's burgers to be high cuisine
Have you had Indian or Thai food before? It quickly appears "high cuisine" after you have.

>>12483001
>It's a natural result I think. Instead of plays and musings of Zeus and Athena, it's the film productions of Avengers and Superman. I'm writing a dissertation on this which is much better written and more tied together logically.

it´s not the same thing you dipshit, first of all, the greeks really believed the gods existed, it wasn´t created to sell books or whatever the fuck the greeks wrote into,


comics is just brainless media for kids that were created because of money, and everybody knew since day one that superman isn´t real

so stop with your stupid argument that:

>superheroes are the greek gods of our times lol xd, im so artistic and profound XD

kys

>>12483007
fuck off manchild, fuck capeshit

>>12483007
Weserns were and are a much broadergenre than capeshit.

I'm glad luddites are seething over every little corner of the culture that's slowly eliminating them off the face of the earth. It's confirmation that the elimination is proceeding. successfully.

>>12483069
>>12483071

Goddamn Western-reading varmints.

>>12483092
what are you rambling about? what elimination are you refering to?

>>12483102
>le western were the capeshit of the day

nice argument you got there, neckbeard

>>12483107
Bowl movements

>>12483107
>what elimination are you refering to?
Yours, if you use resentful terms like "capeshit"

>>12483109
I always wondered who was still reading all the large-print Zane Grey books at the library.

>>12483114
I really don't see what's appealing about the already shallow and homogenized consumer culture of the US racing to the bottom as it tries to achieve mass appeal on a global scale. I also don't see how resenting such a thing is tantamount to luddism.

>>12483161
I don't see what's appealing about being a resentful luddite either. Luddism is related because that "shallow consumer culture" you despise exists because of capitalism, which exists because of technology.

>>12483203
What's it like being so lacking in imagination that you believe that our present use of technology and its expected course are re only possibilities there are for technology. I'm not one of those people who believes that technology is inherently neutral, but having such a limited view seems rather dumb. You sold like the exact type of person capeshit was made for. Did 9/11 really shake you up?

>>12483224
You're the one lacking in imagination, particularly because you lack insight too. The purpose of that "shallow consumer culture" you despise is so that the elite can continue to amass the power needed to make more creative use of technology. It is not the most ideal solution, but obsessing over ideal solutions is for people who talk more than they produce results.

>>12483203
Faggot

>>12483203
>Luddism is related because that "shallow consumer culture" you despise exists because of capitalism, which exists because of technology.

>>12482664
Best way to analogize this is to see a country's people as a cultural random noise generator.
Europe has a pretty wide bound on what their noise generator generates, from really high pitches to really low pitches. Only emits a sound once every minute though, so as a viewer with a brief sample you could potentially think they emit higher and lower sounds more frequently.
Japan's releases sounds just about as frequently as Europe's with more constrained results.
Russia's releases very infrequently and has constrained results.
Next room: USA. It's always releasing sound (one of the USA's primary exports, hobbies, and national interests is entertainment (culture)). It's got really wide bounds.
Since it's emitting so frequently, you get the high pitches about as common as the low pitches, but you also are exposed to enough of it that you could put together a really decent sense of which pitches account for the middle range, you could probably even intuitively figure out some standard devs.
Dig?

>>12482914
>>12482978
Batman should've just done the obvious thing by killing the Joker and be the ubermensch who rules Gotham in the shadows, instead of being a slave morality cuck.

>>12483301
Batman plainly killing The Joker would undermine the allegorical aspect of their relationship.

>>12483329
Fuck contrived allegory and fuck duality.

>>12482914
So basically you've only started reading and you have terrible taste

>>12483412
and fuck niggers and fuck capeshitters

>>12482664
I don't think anyone actually thinks that.

Because the guilt of subsisting on global misery is difficult to obtain in a propagandized society and it remains easier to take up whimsical retreats into arbitrary fancies of the self, which supposedly express the self, than to face the horror of the reality we ourselves consent to and exist within.

>>12482980
>I do not know anyone that finds McDonald's burgers to be high cuisine
the White House and magapedes certainly do

Unironically, late capitalism

>>12483560
>late capitalism

no such thing

>>12483581
It's just a name. Current capitalism, if you like, really has nowhere else to go

>>12483597
4. Intetplanetary capitalism
checkmate commies

Comic book discussion belongs on >>>/co/.
This is the literature board.

>>12483581
Not that anon.
I don’t know much about the term “late capitalism,” or how it’s used, but capitalism, to me, seems to be approaching its rightful end. It has been the best economic structure for centuries, but at some point, we must realize its weaknesses at the global scale. Global warming, Kaczynskian dystopias, massive gaps in power, and other scary consequences can occur, and should be prevented. Capitalism is thriving, still, because humans are greedy and dumb. If only we could engineer societies in which people were not materialistic and selfish.

>>12483611
>massive gaps in power
So we should give the state the power to direct the global economy? Brilliant comrade, that will surely result in an even distribution of power.

>>12483602
>Commie
Anarchist, if you please.

>>12483635
I'm down with anarchism as long as you guys don't force me to participate in your shitty economic system

>>12483632
I’d rather the government have more power than corporations. Men of wealth have horrible influences on nations. See: porn, drugs, rap music, etc. Much of it is through the hands of Jews. All these things increase capital, sure, whatever, and that’s why capitalism is superior, but why is increasing capital most conducive to human existence? It’s one big, uncontrollable System that has priority over cultures, nations, races, individual autonomy. It’s ugly and has no direction. We can’t keep letting the invisible hand guide us. We need to take control ourselves. This begins with genetic engineering

>>12483647
Replacing accumulative money with labor vouchers, (and energy certificates) seems quite doable.
I think we could do without even that someday

>>12483676
its called freedom fucktard if u dont like porn dont watch it

>>12483682
>labor vouchers
sounds like money to me

>>12483611
Why should gaps in power be minimized?

>>12483692
Tell that to the 13 year old who just discovered porn and will waste 5 years of his life destroying himself because he only sees the pleasure in it.

You talk about freedom as if it’s a good thing in itself. Why should people be free to do what is harmful to them? Is not being free having the ability to do what is good? I could just as easily say that a society without porn is free from porn, whereas ours is not, and that, in a sense, we are lacking that freedom from sexual immorality.

Take a good minute to assess your views. Who benefits by this “freedom”? Could your beliefs be influenced by the greedy salesmen and money-loving Jews?

>>12483705
It's given to someone who works and then spent. It's canceled out there. No one gets rich off of it.

Hey, watch this guy from Technocracy Inc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bqPXqYWHlE

>>12483716
Not that the gap in itself is bad, as if equality should be highly esteemed, but the problem is that those with too much power cannot be stopped. They control and influence society for their own benefit, not the nation’s. And some people pretend that their power has no disadvantages to the public when it does. It is they who are dictating human existence, directly or indirectly. I’m not saying those people are evil or anything, I do not blame them for their success. But at some point we shouldn’t build our societies around individual wealth. Maybe we can’t do it now, maybe we won’t do it in 100 years, but it must happen eventually. The problem, of course, is that these wealthy individuals won’t easily desire changing a system that has benefited them so much

>>12483727
Read the wikipedia article. Not going to watch an hour long video.
If you're actually an anarchist you'll be okay with my ancap friends and me trading cryptos while you wallow in poverty with your commie bux. Also good luck criticizing the global bureaucracy without your commie bux mysteriously vanishing due to a 'software error'.

>>12483725
Not the guy you responded to.

>Tell that to the 13 year old who just discovered porn and will waste 5 years of his life destroying himself because he only sees the pleasure in it.
First of all: you should be blaming shitty parenting before freedom for that. Freedom has benefits, shitty parenting doesn't.

Second of all: jerking off to porn isn't going to destroy his life.

You previously asserted that we need to take control ourselves. Then why the fuck should the government have more control? You make NO sense with that comment.

>we are lacking that freedom from sexual immorality.
No we aren't. You can turn off the porn and do something else. In a society that truly lacked that freedom, there'd be no way to do something else on your own accord.

>Who benefits by this “freedom”?
People who aren't retards and take control themselves. The people that you claim to be representing, when you clearly aren't.

>>12483727
so how do u stop people from using cigarettes or whatever as currency like in prison, prison has the same system where you get credits deposited in your commiserry but you can only spend it on stuff you order yourself not transfer it anywhere so naturally you buy as many cigarettes possible to gamble with to buy a tv from the guy who hoards them all due to running and enforcing the sports betting pool in the block? sounds like you're just turning earth into an open air prison

>>12483725
porn is already illegal for people under 18 genius

>>12482664
American culture, if you can call it that, is grim.

All of you are pseud faggets. Read the essay “The Myth of Superman” by Eco; you can finish it over a cup of coffee. There is nothing inherently wrong with superheroes.

>>12483725
You're a larping mess and were it not for the laws of this land if I encountered you I would slay you.

>>12483692
To be free means to transcend your base desires, not indulging in them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFGruJ0mAiU

>>12482664
Maher is right about this but he's literally a man whore and pot smoker. Not sure why he can complain about something being immature.

>>12483867
It means both.

>>12483866
The future is white, fascist, and Christian. Else there will be destruction.

>>12483881
There's the larp, christianity is dead, god is dead, you cannot continue dragging this corpse around and succeed.

>>12483001
One of the stupidest fucking posts I've read on this site.

>>12483692
>>12483790
>Just change the channel, goy!
That may be true on an individual basis, but it's laughably reductionist and uncritical when applied to a societal level, especially when porn addiction is considered to be an epidemic. When a significant portion of the population is having trouble kicking the porn habit, you know civilization is on the decline.

>>12483034
>>12484178
I am willing to bet >>12483001 watches Jordan Peterson on you tube

Western comics have had issues and stigma for years, but in places like Japan, Manga is considered good art and actual literature, and is read by all age groups.

>>12484307
Because there isn't a capeshit duopoly.

>>12484307
it seems like in recent years manga and anime has really taken a turn for wish fulfillment in the form of isekai.

>>12484307
Manga is only slightly less horrible

>>12484230
>especially when porn addiction is considered to be an epidemic
Do you know how many people are on the planet today? Many things are considered "epidemic," yet they still don't pose a significant threat to mankind.

Adults don't. /tv/ only talks about it because half the board is 15-20

>>12483725
This, freedom is always some kind of tradeoff. There's no nebulous ideal state of 'freedom' out there.

>>12483866
Don't you use that line in vain.

>>12482664
>Maher assumes every comic book is about superheros

Get a load of this pleb

>>12482717
En España, dónde? Putos frikis

>>12483034
his point is that comic books and Hollywood spectacle are obviously a confused thirst for transcendence, alterity, wonder and the sublime and that is irrefutable, people have always wanted gods, larger-than-life characters, and now it's Hollywood and vidya serving that need

>>12482691
thats because republicans make jokes at their jobs.

>>12483802
The cigarettes are used as money. Vouchers are person specific.
With or without modern conveniences that make gaming the system difficult, the gains of the cheater would be minuscule and allowable.
In a full employment economy, people would be required to work very few hours, and with the automation boom even less hours.
So, say some tech savvy guy rigs his voucher card to say he's worked his 15/hr week when he hasn't. Now he can buy food and clothing and look all sharp without working that week. Big deal. Who cares?

Sending people to prison for some petty offense only to let them back out into their poor communities, hardened and unable to work, makes this a world an open air prison. Which is why we have guards watching over us.

>>12485269
>confused thirst for transcendence, alterity, wonder and the sublime
>irrefutable
You want me to have a go at it?

>>12485269
>too much Chomski
>not enough Hume

>>12485269
>confused thirst
the way in which one discvers what is transcendant when by means of verbal dislocation the bait is set here be a treasure of my intellect, a nose with a fine sense of taste. There are a million splendid parts of life worth living for, yet you have us focusing on somewhere else, (all the while sadly lamenting where you once were). Lost inside your reflections and broken shards of mirrors, or granite sparkling in the sun.

>>12485269
This. Schiller shares a similar sentiment in his letters, noting that as members of society become increasingly specialized in their social roles, they become increasingly fragmented, and that beauty can make one whole again, or at the very least provide glimpses of wholeness that are both soothing and uplifting.

>>12485301
I see. So everyone would be poor and alienated.

>>12482664
>Can somebody explain why americans likes to hype superhero comicbooks as hight art?
They don't.

>>12482717
Which one is the 8th?

>>12485602
they really do and you´re too embarrased to admit

>>12483299
>introducing wholly unnecessary and clumsy technical similes to express grug-tier ideas and concepts
Go back to being dead, DFW.

>>12484307
>but in places like Japan, Manga is considered good art and actual literature
That's why two bombs weren't enough.

>>12485630
There's over 300 million people in the country. The few million that do don't represent the entire country.

>>12482876
Excellent and sadly accurate post.

>>12482914
>the joker is one of the best characters in fiction because you have to kill him to stop him and that's what he wants anyway; to show you you are the monster you're fighting. He can't lose. That's what's so funny to him.
This is idiotic. You don't become a monster by killing a monster.

I've never seen anyone praise it as some otherworldly form of high art. At most people just say 'it's cool'. Like it or not it IS part of American Culture. I'm not too into comics or their corresponding movies, but I think people embrace it as they should. That is just fantasy shit like Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead.

Though there is a point where grown men and women need to realize that it's just not that good. It's simple to understand which I suppose is a plus in many people's eyes. Good guy have power. Fight bad guy and win. People cheer. There's really nothing too deep or intricate about shit like that. Watchmen was enjoyable, and at least delved a little deeper than say, Spiderman or Superman, but Watchmen wasn't a running comic spanning several decades.

>>12482914
>guy kills hundreds of innocent civilians for fun, laughing the whole time
>kill him
>YOU'RE JUST THE SAME AS THE GUY KILLING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE FOR FUN HAHAHA WE'RE ALL MONSTERS HAHA THERE'S NO DIFFERENCES IN KILLING AT ALL!!!!!!

>>12486117
Whether some is high-brow or low-brow isn't subjective; there's a reason why what's considered high-brow is similar in wildly different cultures, and that is because high-brow has an objective definition. It's always had an objective definition: for the last thousand years philosophers have made a clear distinction between simple pleasures (e.g. sex)
and high-order pleasures (e.g. literature). Pleasure derivation -- as you will see -- is the core determinant of an activity's place on the spectrum of cultural sophistication.

Things that are instantly gratifying generally have little value (i.e capeshit). It's obvious why we have a gut feeling for whether something is trash, low-class, pleb shit. The feeling comes from knowing that it's not very rewarding, which means it requires no effort, which means that even an animal could do it. Compare this with the feeling of accomplishment of having completed a long, complex book. This is why reading is considered high-brow, but getting hammered every night isn't.

All of this stuff has been confirmed by neuroscience at a fundamental level, and more generally by psychology/sociology. High-brow interests can actually activate neural networks that aren't present in most animals, and these brain regions
are thought to involve pleasures above simple stimulation like eating and masturbating; they take into account future states of happiness despite the current activity not being pleasant. Example: you're working hard creating music, are frustrated and angry, yet you're happy knowing that you'll have created something of high aesthetic value when you're done.

>>12485301
>less hours
>cannot even into proper terms for quantification
>expects others to follow its theories of economics

>>12486191
Why do you assume that Watterson wasn't being sincere?

>>12486103
>Though there is a point where grown men and women need to realize that it's just not that good.
Understatement of the century. I don't have even a semblence of a problem with "low art", but these God damned Marvel movies could have been written by a toaster. It's not art at all. The people who enjoy them probably sing along to commercial jingles too.

>>12484273
>something something t. Jung
yeah this is pretty much admission of that

Comic books are high art today. Almost all comic books contain actual religious and mythological imagery and symbolism, which was what all high art was about for centuries in the Western world.

I mean, I got to say that it's quite funny that Bill Maher criticizes comic books for being low-brow, his show is a moralizing bread and circus charade for liberal boomers without a religious bone in their body.

>>12485187
You're missing the point. You being conditioned into a life of compliance when watching porn. There are even people who prefer porn to dating and fucking chicks. Hell, just look up the words solosexual and pornosexual. This contributes to declining birth rates in the West.

>>12486385
You're putting the cart before the horse when you say stuff like this.

The reason people 'prefer' porn to dating is because they are rich and affluent, and don't have to care about anything other than their own hedonistic pleasure.

Every single rich place on the planet has a low birth rate.

>>12486385
>There are even people who prefer porn to dating and fucking chicks.
many people have preferred masturbating over intercourse for centuries
>This contributes to declining birth rates in the West.
only marginally, certainly nowhere near as much as economic uncertainty, higher living costs, women needing to work to sustain a household and thus having less time to raise children, etc. but i guess it's all _the jews_ fault for being pornography producers.

>>12486291
>Comic books are high art today

>>12486463
Well they are. Do you think just because something is popular it can't be high art?

Commoners actually did pray in the Sistine Chapel you know anon.

>>12486425
>many people have preferred masturbating over intercourse for centuries
[citation needed]

>>12486475
high art can be popular but comics aren´t art


>Commoners actually did pray in the Sistine Chapel

of course they will pray in that chapel they belong to the catholic religion, dumbass

>>12486291
>>12486475
A medium can't itself be high or low art, retarded faggot, only individual pieces can.

>>12486495
Why aren't comics art? What is your definition of art?

>"Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual ideas, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power.[1][2] In their most general form these activities include the production of works of art, the criticism of art, the study of the history of art, and the aesthetic dissemination of art."

This is what Wikipedia uses as a definition, and comics certainly fall under this definition.

I mean, if Duchamp's fucking urinal is art, then so is a comic book.

>>12486463
>high art
Not a real thing. Most of the time "high art" is just low art from a previous time that happens to have aged very well

>>12482664
it's kinda symptomatic that in ww2 a nation whose soldiers carried comics in their knapsacks won against those who prominently carried Hölderlin

>>12486507
>expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual ideas, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power.

this is what comics fell flat, because most of the characterization, plot and themes are simplistic, dull, and even some of them feels like you´re reading propaganda and the whole medium is driven by commercialism since day one (that´s why they targeted comics to kids, not adults. they´re the most impressionable people out of the bunch)


>>12486525
>a nation who had more manpower, industrial capacity and a poweful navy won

you forgot about that sonny jim

>>12486510
see this >>12486191

>>12486291
>muh soobahewo moobies are on the same level as the Virgil, Dante and Shakespeare
die

>>12486578
So the point of high art is that it isn't fun? But a lot of it is.

The Odyssey is an ocean adventure story about a god-like hero who kills people for fucking up his house after he fucks at least two sea-witches. The Odyssey is lots of fun and not hard to read.

>>12486634
you´re missing the point brainlet,

>for the last thousand years philosophers have made a clear distinction between simple pleasures (e.g. sex) and high-order pleasures (e.g. literature). Pleasure derivation -- as you will see -- is the core determinant of an activity's place on the spectrum of cultural sophistication.


you will get more enjoyment reading the oddyssey than watching capeshit

>>12486652
>you will get more enjoyment reading the oddyssey than watching capeshit

Only if people are trained to.

>>12486652
But the Odyssey is virtually capeshit, complete with scheming villains, and a dashing hero. Batman and the Odyssey are both manly hero fantasies which involve upholding some kind of social order.

>Philosophers have made a clear distinction
But it's not clear, philosophers disagree with each other on this all the time, and just because philosophers make the distinction doesn't mean its a correct one. Plato thought all poetry and painting was low culture. Lines are pretty blurred.

>>12482664
They're generally not, but there are some /lit/ comics out there. Pic related.

>>12482914
>>12482978
that's right GAMERS RISE UP

>>12482664
Jewish subversion

>>12486900
Bark like a dog you Nazi whore

>>12482853
I find it interesting that comics are considered childish when so much shitty popular art from all kinds of media is basically the same in terms of maturity.

Like Game of Thrones is basically just a fucking soap opera about a less interesting version of War of the Roses but people think it’s mature for some reason because it has tits and gore.

Most comics are shitty, but then again most books are shitty. Watchmen by Alan Moore, for example, is legitimately an impressive work of art.

>>12486525
Hitler himself was a huge Disney fan. His favorite film was Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

>>12486919
Comic books are -literally- jewish and michael chabon even wrote a book about it called the amazing adventures of cavalier and clay. If you like jews so much you shouldn't be attempting diminish their accomplishments in the arts. Its not only disrespectful but it makes you look like an idiot with no attachment to reality.

>>12486941
I didn't diminish anyone's contribution to anything.

Bark like a dog you nazi whore.

>>12486963
I'm not that poster and i have been posting this image at you fags for a little while now so I'm forces to assume like MAGA wojacks you just appropriated from "us"

>>12483635
gib some good anarchist books pls

>>12486984
>You repeated an insult twice because guy outed himself as a Nazi
>therefore you are basically pavlov's dogs
So your point is that any repeated reaction to a stimulus is conditioning and therefore invalid?

Guess I'm supposed to feel really bad now.

>>12485695
man I was baked as fuck last night, get off a nigga dick

>>12487017
How can a guy be a member of a defunct political party from 70 years ago? Christ anon must be ancient.
>So your point is that any repeated reaction to a stimulus is conditioning and therefore invalid?
I genuinely can't believe this is what you would go with after >>12486963
>>12486919 lmaoooo do you have no self-awareness whatsoever?

>>12487034
>defunct political party from 70 years ago
There's still an American Nazi party. Arguing that Nazis don't exist is disingenuous and you know it.

>so your point is that any repeated reaction to a stimulus is conditioning and therefore invalid.
That is what that pic implies in this context.
I called him a Nazi twice, you implied that this meant I was brainwashed.

>>12487046
>There's still an American Nazi party.
I've never seen them on a ballot? Weird
>Arguing that Nazis don't exist is disingenuous and you know it.
I think you're tilting at windmills. Take your meds
>I called him a Nazi twice
You dramatically said "bark like a dog" twice in a line you probably stole from some shit punk band
>you implied that this meant I was brainwashed.
I implied you are apeing things I have been saying which I can back up with my post here >>12486096

>>12487078
Well there is a Nazi party, and they do have members. Why couldn't it be this jew-baiting 4chan user.

I didn't ape the "bark like a dog" thing. Somebody might've said it. I didn't think it was impressive enough for you to think I'd stolen it. Frankly I was just trying to shame this clearly anti-semitic guy, and I'm surprised your making such a big deal about it

>>12485711
Don't they have one of the highest suicide rates also? What's going on there

>>12487078
Same guy
Also
>dramatically
like "jewish subversion" isn't dramatic? Like all 4chan edginess isn't ridiculously dramatic, repetitive, often similar to groupthink? Fuck off

>>12485616
Jamón production

>>12487103
Its a retarded thing to shame someone for because jewish influence in the comic, music and movie industry is overt and well known. You would do more for whatever you believe by proving it is benign rather than denying reality.

>>12487120
>Jewish influence
If it's a cultural "accomplishment" why do I have to prove its benign? If we're measuring our accomplishments against each other, isn't it all just about what side we're on? Not whether or not something is "benign" whatever that meant?

>>12487157
>WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO...
Probably because you are bitching about the word "subversion" or something idk. Tell you what, why don't you just admit you didn't think this far ahead and/or stop replying and/or post a reaction face and an insult

>>12486925
It's funny because Moore said almost the exact same thing as Maher a few years ago.

>>12487179
My argument is that the Jews won that money fair and square so it doesn't have to be benign. It's not subversion, some Jewish people invented Superman and won all the money, now their descendants have influence. The same is true of Rockefeller and he's not Jewish. It's not subversion, these are two facets of mainstream liberal society, and what success looks like in that society. Why do I have to prove that Jewish cultural influence is benign? I just don't think its "subversive"

>>12487179
>>12487157
>>12487120
>>12487103
>>12487078
>>12487046
>>12487034

you´re ruining my thread, shut the fuck /pol/ and /leftypol/

>>12483725
This, freedom is degenerate. This is why the Chinese will outcompete the fat decadent yanks. any country that celebrates porn and multiculturalism is doomed

>>12487213
t. some assblasted kike

>>12487219
the chinese economy is already getting wobbly, stealing american technology can only get you so far

>>12487225
Full disclosure, am catholic.

>>12487233
Okay well fuck our previous discussion, and fuck OP. Lemme axe you some'in. How can you be a catholic with the secrecy of the archives and all of the scandals? I see the criticisms of protestants, but how can one have faith in the catholic church when the institution seems to have been tainted for some time now? I actually like attending mass buy I have a hard time reconciling these reservations that I have.

>>12482664
Comic books are those floppy issues published monthly. Any comic published all at once in a book format is a graphic novel. Anyone pretending there’s any other distinction aside from that is retarded

>>12487259
Ok, let me correct. Was raised Catholic, but never confirmed for the reasons you've listed. Did not want to be associated with the church and its members as an adult.

I know what you mean too. The ceremony of mass can still be gratifying, but I honestly can't sit in a church without feeling like a fraud.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-25/rothschilds-sell-last-piece-of-austrian-empire-after-200-years

>>12487279
So can some comics evolve into graphic novels if they're anthologized in hard-book format after initial publication?

>>12487279
>>12487299

>It’s a marketing term. I mean, it was one that I never had any sympathy with. The term “comic” does just as well for me. The term “graphic novel” was something that was thought up in the ’80s by marketing people and there was a guy called Bill Spicer who used to do a brilliant fanzine back in the sixties called Graphic Story Magazine. He came up with the term “graphic story”

> The problem is that “graphic novel” just came to mean “expensive comic book” and so what you’d get is people like DC Comics or Marvel comics – because “graphic novels” were ge
tting some attention, they’d stick six issues of whatever worthless piece of crap they happened to be publishing lately under a glossy cover and call it The She-Hulk Graphic Novel, you know? It was that that I think tended to destroy any progress that comics might have made in the mid-’80s. The companies, the marketing people, who are not terribly bright individuals, they’re not terribly creative, they don’t really have the hang of – well, I mean, they really haven’t got the hang of the 1970s yet, so the 21st century is a long way behind them and they think in very short term measures and consequently they were more or less to blame for destroying whatever kind of momentum the comic book picked up in the ’80s

http://www.blather.net/projects/alan-moore-interview/northhampton-graphic-novel/

>>12487288
Troubling. I hoped you'd have a One Weird Trick For Faith in The Pope

>>12487323
Not really. Nowadays I find myself sympathizing more with certain poets who were self-described mystics and religious dissenters, like Milton and Blake.

Because of money. That’s the answer to every American question.

>>12487299
No. Watchmen is and always will be a comic. Beautiful Darkness is and always will be a graphic novel. Collections of comics are usually called trade paperbacks or omnibuses. I think “trade hardcover” would also be an acceptable term though I never hear it used.

There’s no hard line but tpbs are usually 4-6 issues and omnis are anything bigger.

>>12482717
>but in Spanish, comics are considered the 9th art form

No, they are not. What the FUCK are you talking about? Dumb muttrican

>>12487373
Ok, so it's not quite as fluid as the distinction between high art and low art.

What I mean is that something which was once considered "low art" or "middlebrow" can become high art with time. Although the stuff that gets preserved was usually popular in its own time.

>>12482717
>>12482914
>>12482978

What the fuck are this posts, what the fuck happened to this board. Suddenly the quality of posts just completely crashed
Joker one of the best characters of fiction? My god, do you people even read? Fucking hell

>>12487457
Its time to RISE UP AND SHLONK GANGWEED

>>12487432
That’s just the thing. The term comic and graphic novel makes no distinction between whether it’s high and low art. It’s just the format it was originally published in. It’s akin to a book being hardcover or paperback. Or say, if a book was originally published chapter by chapter in a magazine and later published collected or just published in novel form. Using it as a way to determine what is high and low art would be like saying “oh I don’t read short stories unless theyre collected in a book.”

>>12487474
Ok, yeah. And its interesting how Alan Moore points out in the above interview, that the term "graphic novel" is a marketing distinction, possibly used to make you think you're reading something highbrow regardless of content.

>>12487457
They're being jokers themselves.

>>12486925
I've heard people call GoT "adult" fiction, not really mature

>>12482664
As an American, I haven't a clue. I've encountered some of these types; in general, they are man-children. I consider it hypothetically possible for comics to be high-art, but I've yet to see any Western comic make it anywhere close (to be fair, I don't read them, but no one I've talked to has ever told of one which sounded remotely qualified, and I doubt strongly such a work would focus on a superhero).

>>12485462
Everyone would have a home, healthy food, proper medical attention, ample time to expand their minds and bodies however they see fit. They’d be free. Free to alienate themselves if they like, but most would reconnect with their community.

>>12486206
There will be less work for people as time goes on. Automation will creep in and replace more and more positions. It’s just more cost effective and that’s all capitalism cares about. (It actually likes a certain portion of the population unemployed, as it helps to excuse why wages are kept so low)
Under a socialist economy, not what the USSR or others have done but a labor voucher system, you would lose a whole classification of jobs. Bankers, insurance, investment, sales, advertising. But there’s still all these people who can work. Let people retire or ease up on the hours worked at an earlier age and everyone else can work three days a week. I may not be able to give you the exact stats on this, but it seems pretty obvious that we’d work less in a society that prioritizes full employment.

>>12482914
>joker is one of the best characters in fiction
mmmm

The average person doesn't want to think, they want to turn their brain off and look at something flashy, simple, and fun. They spend all day either working or preparing for work, every moment spent in the office they have to wear the mask, constantly police every word they say, and by the end they're so emotionally drained and exhausted they drive like madmen home because they don't care if they live or die so long as they feel a notch of excitement and power first. There's no hope for anything better, no hope for understanding from their fellow men, they have no identity that can create trust between two people because everything is politically and demographically divided by force by every facet of culture, media, and authority. "Walking on eggshells" is the summation of the american daily occupation, a mask in a sea of masks, always on the brink of financial and social disaster, you can't admit your feelings to anyone because it's weakness, you can't open your heart to anyone because they'll stab you and kick you down to raise themselves. It's a culture of forced sociopathy because our economic and labor systems are structures so that only sociopaths can prosper in it.
So when these wind-beaten jaded husks roll their financed SUV back to their heavily mortgaged plywood slavebox, they want to turn their fucking brain off and watch grown men in tights and capes shoot lazers at each other.
Nations who still retain a culture, a sense of belonging, any iota of fellowship, will never understand what it's like. The american ideal is the dollar, the soul has been smashed into a pulp because honesty and humanity aren't profitable. This nation has a disease, its people are the product of pathology. If you deviate from the norm you will be destroyed in every capacity there is to destroy a man. There is no room for individuality, for tenderness or thought or feeling. There is the dollar.
From the very first time an american child bares his soul to the world, he will be crushed, and he will not attempt it a second time.
This is a nation of slaves, moving from box to box, and slaves don't need to think. Get your dopamine and shut the fuck up.

>>12487820
True brother we definitely live in a society

>>12482664
Watchmen is a good example of utilizing the graphic novel format to its highest potential. There's experpts of the autobiography of one character. Newspaper articles. There's a recurring character who is reading a comic, and so there's a comic within the novel (Tales of The a Black Freighter. They made it a cartoon which you can get separately or watch within the ultimate edition of watchmen)

>>12487820
The average person isn't un-cultured just because they're "walking on eggshells." Example, my wealthy, politically incorrect parents. The nonconformity stuff is also overplayed. Actually there's a simultaneous need to both stand out and fit in. You need to adhere to existing social values, but you also need to be "original" to have something new to bring to your organization. To succeed in a job interview and get promoted, one has to "distinguish oneself."
>There is only the dollar
This is true though

>>12485943
/those who comprise the class that gets the final say about culture certainly does. This kind of poptimism was an inevitable consequence of embracing intersectionality.

>>12487820
Zesty, sharp and pungently underage.

>>12487889
There's no up arrow here for your "witty" cartoon.

>>12487947
He was posting it to mock you you absolutely clueless faggot. Holy fuck.
>that knee-jerk reddit bitch
Go back

>>12487963
Wowwowow really xDDD i dind't knoe dat wows oh em gee i feel sooo odumb now loeohel.

>>12488023
YIKES

>>12487947
>posts cookie-cutter pubescent /r/socialism garbage about muh soulless gabitalist america
>n-no it's you who's rebbit!
Jesus, go back and stay there, sub 20 IQ faggot.

>>12488070
>>12488047
>>12488023
>>12487963
>>12487947
>>12487889
>>12487820
>>12487457
>>12487473
lol reddit

>>12482868
>I call them NPC’s to their faces
looks like we've got a badass on our hands gents. true /lit/ royalty in the house

>>12482664
they are as much an artform as the novel and the film
if they are principally used for baser commercial purposes that doesn't mean the whole medium should be dismissed
a Tom Clancy novel doesn't mean all novels are trash

>>12488188
true but you´re wrong

>>12488097
You sure tried little buddy

>I'm big into graphic novels

>>12482664
I wonder why...

Reminder that only art is art.
Literature is not art.
Music is not art.
Whatever else you call art, unless it is actually art, is not art.

i blame Alan Moore

>>12487107
that's just the cops being too lazy to investigate crimes. Behind every murder free city there is a bunch of """""""""""""suicide"""""""""" with a botched investigation

>>12488288
Superheroes are popular because Americans deep down don't trust the police and love power fantasies where evil can be punched until it goes away. There is no Jewish conspiracy

Capeshit ruined the image of comics just like it is doing now with cinema.

>>12488422
See >>12486941 >>12487120
>>12487157

>>12488432
It's not a conspiracy. Some Jewish people just got rich. You don't see these people talking about the WASP conspiracy. Anyway, Nazi fuck off

>>12487157

>>12488436
>you don't see people talking about the conspiracy of the vast overwhelming majority of the population
;^)

>>12488436
>>12488422

>>12488438
Disingenuous responses are convincing.

>>12488445
>>12488442
>>12488438
Why is everyone here so eager to fellate Hitler

We have a kike raid on /lit/!!!

>>12488464
Yeah what gives everyone knows the jews have been beloved since time immemorial by everyone

>>12488465
>>12488470
Well why does the fact that comic books are a largely Jewish industry have to be a conspiracy? Why are you angry about it? Why can't it just be the free market at work? That's what I've meant this whole time, and you've only responded with retarded insults

>>12488470
Yeah, only nazis hate the Jews.

>>12488475
Do you know what the word conspiracy means? Why do you enjoy pretending to be willingly dumb?

>>12488475
I wouldn't care about the Jews if they didn't want to kill me and genocide my race.

>>12488483
>>12488485
Well for starters a conspiracy is a secret plan by a group, often the government, but just as often a conspiracy is a plan to break the law. You can find different definitions in different dictionaries but that's the basic idea.

It's no secret that Stan Lee was Jewish, but I don't see what about it is secret or illegal or having to do with the government.

Also
>>12488476
There were no Jews in Japan at this time. Where do you think he got his information? You think he ever met any Jews or studied them?

>>12488499

>/lit/ trashes women for reading YA
>/lit/ defends men reading comics

great job guys

>>12488503
way to not respond dumbass

>>12488499
Wow

>>12488515
Yeah that's the definition of conspiracy alright. Good job. Now you know what it means too

Now this is the type of derailment I can get behind

>>12488523
I'm just curious where you get "government" from and why you don't believe very small ethnic groups consolidating so much media power in their own interests isn't a "conspiracy". I mean at the end of the day you're either literally a jew or some self-hating idiot who wakes up each morning prepared to lie to himself and play dumb mental "what if" games for the sake of staying sane. Ultimately you don't matter, only the lurkers.

Clearly none of you fags have read any of this guys stories. OP is a fucking retard and you people have your heads so far up your ass.

>>12488535
Why do I have to be self-hating to not be anti-semitic? I mean that, I really don't understand.

To answer your other question, media power gets concentrated between different ethnic groups anyway. Its like the foundation of WASPS. I chalk it up to nepotism.

Asking why Jews own all the comic books would be like asking why Italians run all the delis or why black people play all the Jazz music. It's just culture.

>>12488514
https://dailystormer.name/jewish-comic-book-propagandist-stan-lee-finally-dies/

"These modern superheroes are a totally Jewish concept, and they push Jewish themes and morals. Yes, of course some gentiles have produced quality work using the same characters over the years. But the Jewish influence over the medium has been one of moral degradation."

>>12488554
>moral degradation
doesn't really mean anything to me. Could you name a uniquely jewish value being forwarded by comic books that I should be worried about?

>>12488551
Okay well have fun waking up every day lying to yourself and playing stupid mental "what if" games to say sane. Move out of metropolitan areas and stop being a faggot all of the time soon anon. For your own sake. Have a nice evening!

>>12488564
Acceptance that literal alien outsiders should be allowed in your society and indeed above the law. The foundation of bread and circuses that lead to the modern day redditor. From (((comicbooks))) to the silverberg screen. I have literally seen plebbity soibois I know unironically talking about Thanos' plan being a solution to the world

>>12488574
Again, way to not respond.

>Is a fucking miserable failure
>Its the Jews fault
I mean this is really who I think you are. I think you're projecting. And I'm not gonna move out of my metropolitan area because obviously the suburbs are out there and that's where all the brain-dead zero culture morons I grew up with live

>>12482876
I read a post in a deep ecology thread about Thanos as a conditioning agent to prepare the public for the rise of "the next Hitler". Supposedly he is meant to instill a subliminal reaction against ideas of conservation (depopulation) to preempt the next political environment. Marvel is propaganda combined with spectacle

>>12488593
>all of this actual projection
>the suburbs
>admitting I nailed you down to a T
okay I'm really leaving now but thanks, that was hysterical.

>>12488630
In guessing that I lived in a metropolitan area?
Still not impressive. You still haven't proved its a conspiracy you petty piece of shit

>>12488630
>projecting blaming my problems on the jews
>while defending the jews
Explain

>>12488551
>media power gets concentrated between different ethnic groups anyway.

This HAS to be a bait. Nobody would be so naive.

>>12488539
not even alan moore agrees with you, pathetic manchild

>"People have been saying since the mid-’80s that “comics have grown up.” I don’t think that’s factually true. I think what happened was that there have been a couple of comics that seemed to be reaching for a more mature readership, and that has coincided with the emotional age of the mass audience coming the other way."

>"I can understand the desire to hang on to your childhood, but, it turns out, you can’t. There’s nothing wrong with having fond thoughts about this or that, but you don’t have to carry it with you your whole life like some sort of suit of magic armor."

>"To my mind, this embracing of what were unambiguously children's characters at their mid-20th century inception seems to indicate a retreat from the admittedly overwhelming complexities of modern existence,"

>"It looks to me very much like a significant section of the public, having given up on attempting to understand the reality they are actually living in, have instead reasoned that they might at least be able to comprehend the sprawling, meaningless, but at-least-still-finite 'universes' presented by DC or Marvel Comics. I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times."

>"Someone came up with the term graphic novel. These readers latched on to it; they were simply interested in a way that could validate their continued love of Green Lantern or Spider-Man without appearing in some way emotionally subnormal."

>"I don’t think the superhero stands for anything good. I think it’s a rather alarming sign if we’ve got audiences of adults going to see the Avengers movie and delighting in concepts and characters meant to entertain the 12-year-old boys of the 1950s.”

>>12488671
It totally does. Edison's estate belongs to his kids. So does Stan Lee's. It's not a conspiracy, just nepotism. I live in a Little Italy. I'm not amazed that every restaurant around me is owned by an Italian guy who's great-great whatever started it. It's not even weird

>>12488692
Same guy but
>Jews have their own neighborhoods
>Some of them start companies
>They hire their neighbors, family members, their neighbors's kids, etc.
That's not a conspiracy that's just how businesses work.

>>12488674
I'm the guy who's been defending Jews this entire time, but god, Alan Moore is totally right about superheroes.

>>12488700
now apply this to all eminent media and political apparatus

>>12488762
So cops, senators, white house aids, the entire EPA, everyone in the fire department, public education officials, diplomats, the state department, and the military, are mostly Jewish? Or Jewish controlled? I mean, it would be absurd if I just listed all the people in these organizations who wield power and aren't Jewish. I've met people who work for some of these organizations and none of them were Jewish. You see why this is unconvincing?

>>12488793
You know what? You're right. Your local firemen and policemen aren't jewish, so we should all put this silly idea to rest.

>>12488837
Neither are your teachers or most senators or the president or most diplomats. Yeah, its fucking silly

I feel like a person that reads comics, is at least still better than a person that doesn't read at all.

>>12488906
Depends on which comics. I thought the Sandman Series was quite good.

>>12488674
Are you dumb or some shit, as much as I love Moore he’s wrong on this one, it’s just that people like you try to validate yourselves. Superheroes in this day in age are more culturally acceptable, they’re almost reaching the mythological status as someone like Hercules. Moore just misunderstands what a superhero really is supposed to be and completely ignores why some of them are created in the first place. You guys really are dumb...

>>12488674

>proceeds to call someone a man child

>quotes a man child

Huh.....

>>12482914
>I don't consider comic books high art but I like the super hero's dilemma of power
yes comics appeal to liberals and libertarian because those people are obsessed with power and how individuals deal with politics and they think that being indestructible physically like superman is being an alpha male.

>>12482876
>>12483005
I actualy had a dream where trump turned to thanos lol

I don't know, I always enjoyed comics and superheroes since I'm a kid. Nothing wrong with that, I don't run around and act like I shoot webs like Spiderman.

This board likes to shit on the "common denominator" just to feel a little good about itself. It doesn't undermine your own issues.

Bunch of LARPers around here.

>>12490551
What a mundane, pointless post. Go back to facebook/reddit.

>>12482664

Superheroes are just a modern day stand-in for mythology a form of art that you might think would otherwise be lost but in reality will never be lost as humans are naturally drawn to it as history can testify
If anything it would stand to reason that the existence and popularity of superheroes only further proves this
I suppose you can say that superheroes are childish all you want but because they are filling in the role of something seemingly so essential it's quite a pointless task

>>12490561
You got me good big goy

>>12490551

>I don't know, I always enjoyed the comics and superheroes since I'm a kid

nobody disputes that.

>>12488674

>"It looks to me very much like a significant section of the public, having given up on attempting to understand the reality they are actually living in, have instead reasoned that they might at least be able to comprehend the sprawling, meaningless, but at-least-still-finite 'universes' presented by DC or Marvel Comics.
>I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times."

it did. this is it. isn't it magic.
alan moore disowns the culture he helped to create, like every dottled old man does.

>>12482664
Based atheist jew being the smart and mature person in the room. Late show dude-eske.

>>12482664
>he names only black authors

>>12490316
>>12490411

what does it feel trying to do mental gymnastics in order to defend your pathetic hobby instead of growing up and taking responsabilities in life?

>muh superman, muh spiderman

how embarrassing, comics are garbage for little toddlers

>>12482664
>hype superhero comicbooks as hight art?
literally nobody does this and yes, they are still perceived as a children's hobby in most countries.

>>12490562
>>12490411
>>12490316
>>12488539
>>12487889
>>12487432
>>12486925
>>12486857
>>12486634
>>12486525
>>12486510
>>12486291

>"Nerd culture is the product of a late capitalist conspiracy, designed to infantalize the consumer as a means of non-aggressive control."
- Simon Pegg

>"A sweet-faced boy of twelve told me proudly that he had seen Star Wars over a hundred times? I said, 'do you think you could promise never to see Star Wars again?' He burst into tears. I just hope the lad, now in his thirties, is not living in a fantasy world of secondhand, childish banalities"
- Alec Guinness

>"I don't think they are making [comic book movies] an elevated art form, I think it's still just Batman running around in a stupid cape.. It's for kids, it's adolescent in its core. "
- David Cronenberg

>"I don't want to see or make films about super heroes that fly around in spandex and a cape solving the problems of the world. I think it's fine for children, children of all ages by the way, but it's not for me."
- William Friedkin

>“They have been poison, this cultural genocide, Because the audience is so overexposed to plot and explosions and shit that doesn’t mean nothing about the experience of being human.”
- Alejandro Iñárritu

>"Superman makes me vomit, Batman and all of that. That whole empire... this religion... It is so important that superheroes suffer... I don't give a damn, I shit on the United States."
- Alejandro Jodorowsky

>"To my mind, this embracing of what were unambiguously children's characters at their mid-20th century inception seems to indicate a retreat from the admittedly overwhelming complexities of modern existence"
- Alan Moore

>"The movies are for children but they don't want to admit that... There is a small group of fans that do not like comic sidekicks. They want the films to be tough like The Terminator, and they get very upset and opinionated about anything that has anything to do with being childlike."
- George Lucas

>A lot of fans are basically fans of fandom itself. It's all about them. They have mastered the Star Wars or Star Trek universes or whatever, but their objects of veneration are useful mainly as a backdrop to their own devotion. Anyone who would camp out in a tent on the sidewalk for weeks in order to be first in line for a movie is more into camping on the sidewalk than movies. Extreme fandom may serve as a security blanket for the socially inept, who use its extreme structure as a substitute for social skills. If you are Luke Skywalker and she is Princess Leia, you already know what to say to each other, which is so much safer than having to ad lib it. Your fannish obsession is your beard. If you know absolutely all the trivia about your cubbyhole of pop culture, it saves you from having to know anything about anything else. That's why it's excruciatingly boring to talk to such people: They're always asking you questions they know the answer to.

what did he mean by this?

Sports fans are as bad as Capeshit fans if not worse they are just too stubborn to admit they are on the same levels.

>>12486900
The Greeks had a pantheon of heroes before the Jews did.

>>12482664
>Superman
Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster (wonder what ethnic group they are)
>Spiderman
Stan Lee (Lieber) and Steve Ditko (wonder what ethnic group they are)
>Batman
Bob Kane and Bill Finger (wonder what ethnic group they are)
>the Hulk
Stan Lee and Jack Kurby (aka Jacob Kurtzberg) (huh, wonder what ethnic group they are from)
>Green Lantern
John Broom and Gil Kane (aka Eli Katz) (wonder what ethbic group they are from?)
>the Flash
Robert Kanigher (hmm, wonder what ethnic group he's from)
>Captain America
Joe Simon and Jack Kirby (heh, wonder what ethnic group the creators of this patriot are from)
>Thor
Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, and Jack Kirby (nice of people from this ethnic group, whatever it is, to provide a good take on European myth)
>Wolverine
Roy Thomas, Len Wein, and John Romita (I'll give you this one is only 2/3 of a certain ethnic group)
>Iron Man
Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, Don Heck, and Jack Kirby (what ethnic group could THEY be?)

Seriously these /pol/-TARDS need to get out of here with this conspiracy nonsense. It is clearly CAPITALISM that's the problem.

Lol funny unrelated thought: imagine if you were to invent made up deities haha that would make a group of people forget the deities of their own history and worship ones with your own values instead lol that would be funny

>>12491165

Brainlet, people cannot enjoy what they enjoy? Does this affect you? As long as they don’t take the power fantasy too far they are fine, this goes for every medium (movies, videogames, books, etc.) Also Spider-Man is a comic which is literally about taking responsibility and maturation.

>>12490648
Alan Moore attempted to deconstruct the superhero, he did not want to create or indeed have any part in creating the current mass obsession with superheroes. But he did create an extremely successful deconstruction of the genre which inadvertently allowed manchildren to justify their love of the medium. Poor guy.

I do find it interesting that he complains about the ephemera of a previous century squatting on the cultural stage when LOEG is basically just Moore parading Victorian pop culture figures around on the "cultural stage."

I don't think superhero comics are being hyped as high art. Rather, I think high art is being stigmatized as pretentious and dull. Starved of any intellectual stimulation, the masses attempt the suss out some kind of deeper meaning from the vapid pop culture media that they consume. Thus you get think pieces and video essays on superheroes so that normies can try and stave off the vacuity that their own choices have engendered in them.

Notice that now its actually cool to say you're "nerdy" and love marvel movies, while any actual engagement with intellectually deep material would be abnormal.

>>12488674
Alan Moore is based.

>>12483034
>the greeks really believed the gods existed
in most cases they didn't

>>12492706
Then Alan Moore is a fucking hypocrite who’s bitching about a problem he helped create.

>>12484307
>Manga is considered good art and actual literature, and is read by all age groups.
maybe up until the 00s, these days it is becoming stigmatized due to otaku cancer

>>12491212

>Asks a question to provoke a impressionable young and naive kid having fun.

>does it to sound like an intellectual

Alec Guinness was more autistic than the kid himself

>>12492790
He can be a bit pretentious and just generally kind of a miser but I don't really think its his fault. He was working a medium rife with potential where literally the only path to economic success and autonomy is to write superhero comics. And even then he managed to create some great works that examined the genre and our relationship with it, not his fault that it had the disastrous effect it did.

>>12482783
>Normies like dumb shit like Marvel because it fits their dream of achieving anything without any hard work.
based

>>12491212
based Guinness

>>12493061


>”based XD”

Ya know if you actually read you’d know that these heroes have to work to achieve their goals in expense of their own happiness the fuck are you people even talking about?

>>12482783
Did Iron Man also become a hero through hard work? His powers didn't literally fall into his lap like Spider-Man.

>>12493248
Superhero comics still tend to revert to the idea that being a hero is just a matter of being given extraordinary power by the universe and having enough of a moral compass to choose beating the shit out of mobsters and terrorists over doing literally anything else with said extraordinary power, which is pretty basic wish fulfillment.

Super-heroes often have practice montages, and difficult trolley-problem-style decisions to make, but for the most part its a matter of fetishizing the vague idea that justice means punishing the wicked.

>>12493260
Spider man had to learn to control his powers and have his uncle die before he actually does any hero shit.

>“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”


-C.S Lewis

>>12493366
Great post

>>12482868
into the spiderverse is one of the most visually impressive films in a long while. its story is subpar comic slop, but its still enjoyable. also stop being a dick

>>12491212
>Alejandro Jodorowsky
Didn't he published his own comics thought.

>>12482783
No, I think that if comics didn't exist, the vast majority of comic readers wouldn't be reading any of the great works. It's not that they're making the choice to read comics instead, but rather that they weren't likely to voluntarily read great works in the first place.

/lit/ would do a better job convincing people why they should read them. We should recruit readers instead of bashing comic enthusiasts, despite their shallowness.

>>12485616
Photography
>>12487397
>he doesn't know
Anon, I...
>>12487457
???

The majority of comics and movies are shit because they don’t convey much beyond themselves. We can extract so much from art, mythology, and great literature because they’re like signposts which point to something greater, whereas the so-called artists of our time find these signposts, rip them out of the ground, and then hang them on the wall to admire their aesthetic surfaces. The only correspondences which are made tend to be crude (“Trump is like Voldermont because they are both bad lol”)

>>12486925
Watchmen was shit and Moore is a masturbatory hack.