/lit/ - Literature

brainletism and boredom. socrates and the greeks after him were hacks.

>>12445689
I couldn’t get past the part where Socrates misinterprets Thrasymachus’ conceptions of justice to “refute” his argument and Thrasymachus doesn’t notice it, being the retard that he is, even though he was right all along

>>12445735
If you only read just a little more you'll find even better arguments against justice.

>>12445689
the greatest book in 2500 years

Jock North Korea

>>12445689
One of the most honest looks on society that many today should take note of.

>By Zeus, You're right, Socrates!
you're in for this

>>12445689
Two long chapters of having to endure semantics that won’t seem important until later reads, then 8 chapters of good ideas.

>>12445759
This one. Plato’s better argument against might makes right is in the Gorgias.

>>12445689
A humongous waste of time touted by clueless retards with no understanding of what matters in the 21th century.

Plato is one of those pseuds on 4chan that argues with themselves and misrepresents the other position. You're in for non-intellectual writing that is used to dick around with on the train basically.

Let me explain why I'd recommend this book to everyone: Plato is stupid.

Seriously.

And it's important that you all understand that Western society is based on the fallacy-ridden ramblings of an idiot. Read this, understand that he is not joking, and understand that Plato is well and truly fucked in the head.

Every single one of his works goes like this:

SOCRATES: "Hello, I will now prove this theory!"
STRAWMAN: "Surely you are wrong!"
SOCRATES: "Nonsense. Listen, Strawman: can we agree to the following wildly presumptive statement that is at the core of my argument?" {Insert wildly presumptive statement here— this time, it's "There is such a thing as Perfect Justice" and "There is such a thing as Perfect Beauty", among others.}
STRAWMAN: "Yes, of course, that is obvious."
SOCRATES: "Good! Now that we have conveniently skipped over all of the logically-necessary debate, because my off-the-wall crazy ideas surely wouldn't stand up to any real scrutiny, let me tell you an intolerably long hypothetical story."
{Insert intolerably long hypothetical story.}
STRAWMAN: "My God, Socrates! You have completely won me over! That is brilliant! Your woefully simplistic theories should become the basis for future Western civilization! That would be great!"
SOCRATES: "Ha ha! My simple rhetorical device has duped them all! I will now go celebrate by drinking hemlock and scoring a cameo in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!"

The moral of the story is: Plato is stupid.

>>12446884
thanks brendan

>>12446884
>Using a strawman to mock someone else for using a strawman
woah, so this is the power of the highest IQ board on 4channel

>>12446884
>hasn’t read the dialogues where Plato writes Socrates an actual opponent like the Gorgias or Protagoras
>Doesn’t realize that Plato isn’t just articulating a systemic philosophy (he kind of does in the late dialogues and seventh letter) he’s also the headmaster of a school and is trying to teach his students how to argue, spot shit arguments, and to get his students imagining how they could answer better.

Awfully plebby here today.

>>12446884
r*ddit

He's not a very good teacher then.

The Republic (and the rest of Plato's work, ) helped establish a pattern of overly-simplistic generalization, rhetoric disguised as dialectic, and false dichotomies parading as analysis.

And you can make the claim that at the time it was the forefront of philosophical thought, but the few extant works by Heraclitus of Ephesus show that philosophers of the time (and of earlier times) were capable of not only grasping the notion of concurrent-but-contradictory truths, of constant flux--of uncertainty, to use a more contemporary term--but giving it a (relatively) thorough philosophical exploration.

To give a specific example, the Allegory of the Cave infuriates me. Plato makes a considered, persuasive argument that we accept the reality that we are presented, that we can't trust our impressions--that things are not necessarily what they seem. I find it logically incongruous that the same person who makes that argument--someone who has clearly read Heraclitus and Cratylus--can then champion a philosophy that takes as its foundation the notion of True Forms, of Perfect Ideals. I also find it incredibly annoying that that very same person, who describes his own logical shortcomings (in his own argument!) without recognizing them, is considered one of the fathers of logical thought.

>>12446958
meant for
>>12446948

>>12446938
>>12446948
>>12446952
Dumb phoneposters.

>>12446958
Heidegger makes his own analysis of the analogy of the cave and it’s much more worked out. I always took it as a sort of proto-Phenomenology, where seeing things illuminated outside the cave is seeing beings as they actually are, looking at the sun itself would be Being itself; would Plato do such a thing? Yes, the Sophist and the Parmenides are both about Being and non-Being.

Presumably Plato would also lecture alongside having his students read the dialogues (thus the ancient debate over the Unwitten Doctrines). Who knows, he may have literally opened lecture one day going, “alright which argument could Thrasymachus have won with in book 2 of the Republic?” And proceeded to continue the argument from there.

Reading through the history of philosophy, it seems like a bunch of people also read Plato 100% seriously for a long time, when Socrates is obviously sarcastic pretty often. Not Plato’s fault the average philosophy student and professor can’t pick out nuance.

>>12446760
What matters in the 21st century?

verbose

>>12447062
Trans rights.

>>12447074
Where is trans rights mentioned in The Republic?

>>12447099
Nowhere. That's why it's a waste of time.

>>12446884
Socrates never claimed to be smart.

>>12447115
The stuff about the bad man seeking power in order to become a tyrant and the good man seeking power in order to prevent the bad man attaining power is relevant to this topic of trans rights. Identifying the tyrants is the challenge for the 21st century.

>>12445689
>>12445699
>Can we say that op is a person?
>yes anon your dick is so big and that is most certainly a correct
>Can we also say that op either loves himself or does not love himself?????? >:)
>ooooooooh, damn please fuck me anon you are ever most assuredly correct and your brain is so big! damn!" please!
>is not himself a man and not himself not a woman which is also a man?
>yes that must be correct
>now, what do we call someone who loves men?
>a faggot
>op is a faggot

>>12446884
Your arguments are always based on things that are widely accepted as being true. At least he had the decency to list the ones necessary for his arguments in case they turn out to be wrong in the future.

>>12445689
getting lost in the sauce. took me forever to read and it was about kings being philosophers and what society should do to their kids or something like that. Definitely a book that has to be read more than once.

>>12445689
>What am I in for?
The Rape of Reason

>>12445689
You know I haven't seen this opinion (and i'm sure its popular in a lot of places) but I think Plato really taught me how to creatively think about the world. Whenever I am considering an idea to write I find that I am deconstructing with the method that Plato taught me. However, I think most of his ideas are based on nonconcrete things and really shouldn't be taken too seriously. But, when I finally GOT Plato I really felt that the whole world looked like a different place. I began to see things not for what they were, but for what they were composed of. I began to look (indeed, I loved to challenge myself) for that essential essence and form that I was capable of finding in all things. It really influenced the way I organized my thinking for a good amount of time, and had I not discovered Nietzsche I may have ended up a religious given my obsession with his perfect state and such.
>>12448977
lol'd

>>12445689
It’s so boring it’s almost unreadable

>>12446948
Did Plato use these dialogues to help teach his students? What a cute image. Imagine PLATO himself being your teacher, and directly going through his works with you. What a surreal vision. To have the man himself guide you through his own dialogue.

tried to read this but literally couldn't relate to any of the characters desu