/lit/ - Literature

>>12432759
It's the idea that some traits commonly associated with masculinity are negative e.g the idea that being sensitive and expressing your feelings makes you"less of a men".

Toxic masculinity is just called being an asshole when you take it as its most reasonable meaning. Beyond that it's simply negative label created as a tool for posturing.

Toxic masculinity are behaviours associated with masculinity that are destructive, more specifically macho aloha male shit

>>12432778
>the idea that being sensitive and expressing your feelings makes you"less of a men
this is true though. being "sensitive" is just being emotionally weak, in most cases. expressing these feelings of weakness can only be positive if you are trying to work out why you're such a bitch

>>12432759
A socio-political term invented to assist in the gender inversion of the West. Initially it is used to label universally detestable traits and actions but gradually its application expands to encompass all traits and actions that are historically masculine. In this manner masculinity will be socialized as morally detestable and increasing numbers of the subsequent generations will subconcsiously seek to avoid holding those traits leading to a rise in gender dysphoria, homosexuality, and general mental illness.

>>12432759
>what are some good books that tackle what masculinity means.

you can always turn to homer,especially the odyssey because it tells about telemachus gradually manning up,becoming assertive in managing the affairs of life,being compassionate and growing skillful.

A lot of guys are insecure in their masculinity and push themselves to do stupid things to assert it. "Toxic" masculinity is when men are so insecure that these things they do go from 'stupid' to 'counter productive' or even 'harmful'. Unfortunately, a lot of feminine men have latched onto the term to dictate any form of masculinity they lack as "toxic".

Lifting weights is masculinity. Lifting weights despite recovering from an injury and exacerbating it because you don't want your bro to call you a pussy, is "toxic" masculinity. Men too lazy and effete to lift weights, deem both "toxic" masculinity.

>>12432759
a subversive catch-all term meant to undermine traditionally patriarchal society in all its masculine facets

>>12432759
in its original form it refers to poor health and dangerous behavior that trends higher in men than women.
that some aspect of masculinity, whether it be nurture or nature, is harmful to men and those around them like a literal toxic substance.

in social media its an identity weapon..... like mansplaining.

manhood by michel leiris
this sex which is not one by luce irigiray
friday by michel tournier
everything by foucault

honestly just read lots of fiction generally and you'll understand more about men and women, like I know it sounds obvious but reading stuff like carver, turgenev, proust, maupassant, baldwin, faulkner etc. you'll get a much deeper sense of the dynamics between men and women

>>12432856
This is one way to read it. It's basically a product of cultural hegemony that drives people to be "manly" at the expense of their own individuality and more.
>>12432861
>>12432847
Don't listen to rabid conspiracy theorists like these two. I've never seen any citations linking figures such as postmodern philosophers or members of the Frankfurt School to this imaginary agenda that strives to destroy "traditional western values" and the world probably never will because it's bullshit.

>>12432856
Good post.

Toxic masculinity was what originally started as the psychological theory of hypermasculinity, a man taking what he considers to be masculine traits to their extremes until it starts to hurt him psychologically and then physically through substance abuse, dangerous and harmful behavior, and ostracizing him from others because of his excessive behavior.
The idea of naming it this was largely to create a system to identify hypermasculinity, and to help men in prison that were forced to show hypermasculine behavior, and were unable to adjust to society after coming out of prison.

Later this term was adopted by male movements because it concerned men, and these movements started advocating for more help towards fixing hypermasculine men through therapy, these movements called this behavior toxic masculinity, men hurting themselves because they misunderstand masculinity.

The social sciences later took the term but instead of the person being negatively affected by his own actions and feelings, masculinity itself was the cause of these people ending up in the position that they were in.
Even later the idea was then broadened to a standalone social/cultural net being cast on all men affecting them negatively, it's not necessarily that masculinity is bad, but that the current idea of masculinity is affecting all men negatively and that men therefore need to be freed from this system as much as women need to be freed from it.

>>12432918
LMAO

Generally it points out stuff in masculinity which should be considered toxic (ie. Don't be such a baby your a man! etc.) However toxic feminists (not all feminists are like that just putting that out there) use it as a way to blame men for everything.

>>12432932
If you actually have a counterpoint I'd love to hear it.

>>12432842
men weep in homer.

His words had moved Achilles to tears at the thought of his own father, and taking the old man’s hands he set him gently from him, while both were lost in memory. Priam remembered man-killing Hector, and wept aloud, at Achilles’ feet, while Achilles wept for his father Peleus and for Patroclus once more, and the sound of their lament filled the hut.

achilles,priam,odysseus all weep

Fortunae plango vulnera
stillantibus ocellis,
quod sua mihi munera
subtrahit rebellis.

>>12432961
i don't care to argue with autistic ideologues

>>12432856
Quality posting

>>12432969
How is the belief that there is a distributed conspiracy to subvert gender not fabricated by the lenses of ideology, whereas believing that to be false is?

>>12432987
self-evident for anyone who isn't an ideologue

>>12432997
Could you illustrate the ways in which this is self-evident?

>>12433006
no, now fuck off

>>12432964
Men crying and forming social bonds with other women is by defintion toxic masculinity.

>>12433009
Okay, thank you for making it self-evident that you have no argument.

>>12433013
>women
men*, hurr durr

All the examples I've heard of toxic masculinity are feminine as shit. Don't be a faggot. Just call it "lack of masculinity".

How does one define masculinity, anyway?

>>12433018
i don't spoonfeed retards like you, apologies

>>12433090
What a shame; I genuinely wanted to see someone's sources for this too.

>>12433013
how do you think crying is toxic?

Daily reminder that domesticating your emotions, having a stoic temperament, acting decisively, meeting challenges and men face-to-face, bravery and self reliance are all positive traits that globohomo wants to destroy. If you NEED the support of others and think controlling negative emotions is a bad thing, you're a woman and or a faggot. Don't bother other people if your turmoil. Master it yourself. No one can help you but yourself; that's why men grow into adults and women remain eternally juvenile

>>12432847
And what do you possibly think the goal of that would be?

>>12432842
This is how NPCs think.

Toxic masculinity is posting jezebels.

This thread got solved pretty fast. Anyone wanna derail it with incel bait?

>>12432847
>>12432918
Ok so there might not be "conspiracy", as in it's not part of some longitudinal stratagem that contemplates injecting the term and its connotations into societal conscious.

But that doesn't preclude that what the anon you replied to said is an accurate description of the ideas development under the historical dialectic.

>>12433142
and screenshots of tinder thots messaging you

>>12433130
>conforming to the majority of modern western society
>calling someone who doesn't an npc

>>12433156
this is the most embarrassing thing in the world to me
posting boring tinder conversations on lit - why?

>>12432856
upvote

PC culture is so hard today that they refrain from calling someone an ASSHOLE and instead make up a term like (((toxic masculinity)))

>>12432759
It's these, OP.
>>12432830
>>12432778

Basically, toxic masculinity refers to the negative qualities of masculinity that are actively harmful to individuals (the man himself most of all). These negative qualities can include misogyny, chauvinism, the romanticisation of war and conflict while ignoring the human cost etc.

As far as books are concerned, Virgina Woolf's The Three Guineas is a basic criticism of it. If you're looking for fiction about toxic masculinity, Fight Club is perhaps the most famous example.

>>12432861
Masculinity=/=toxic masculinity.

If you want an example from another medium of the difference between these two, look at The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. The Bad represents toxic masculinity, where as The Good is "positive" masculinity. This is because the latter has positive masculine traits such as honour and chivalry.

>>12433452
>Thinking a woman can understand what it means to be a man, let alone criticize it
>>>/tumblr/

>>12433452
holy shit i didn't realize brainlets like this browsed here

>>12433452
>If you want an example from another medium of the difference between these two, look at The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. The Bad represents toxic masculinity, where as The Good is "positive" masculinity. This is because the latter has positive masculine traits such as honour and chivalry.
you do realize you're making a post on 4channel and not coming up with some shitty thesis for your first year sociology class

something blah yadda yadda if you don't take shit from whores ur evil blash noiujpfaunpigd

basically it's all fucking retarded

>>12432759
It's bullshit. Just a shit test women do.

This thread is indicative of the horrifying nature of the phrase. Sure, even the most ardent chauvinist would concede that there some elements of behavior commonly understood to be masculine that are potentially harmful to the man himself or others, and thus "toxic", yet the most ardent feminist would have a very different idea of what constitutes toxicity and what masculine behaviors should be deemed harmful. This is because it is an utterly meaningless phrase ascribes varying degrees of value and content in varying contexts, a rhetorical flourish that is politically charged and weaponized to criticize certain elements of masculinity without actually including an implicit and commonly understood criteria for "toxic" or for which behaviors specifically even are toxic. Therefore, it can be used in broad strokes as a buzzword to immediately criticize an aspect of male culture without justifying itself as a valuable critique, due to its inherently charged nature. Asking "what is toxic masculinity", and the motley slew of answers given, demonstrates the silliness of the concept.

>>12432759
What’s toxic femininity?

The worst part about toxic masculinity is the phrase itself: just saying or hearing "'toxic' 'masculinity'" is to utter a phrase that almost seems bent on alienating and polarizing; one whose mere structure is a boon to discourse regarding the psychological and social implications it is trying to signify.

>>12432759
It's the type of masculinity that combines with all things BASED and makes things wet and salty.

>>12432847
This actually.

>>12433217
I'm sensitive enough to avoid most conformism.

>>12433452
The characters in that movie don't, and cannot, represent sociological buzzwords that didn't exist when it was made.

>>12433452
>Masculinity=/=toxic masculinity.
Yea, just like how feminism is just about equality.

>>12433598
Its strange to see a concept that really should be expressed alongside sympathy being expressed as an attack. They have a real talent for that kind of thing.

>>12433452
All true
>>12433669
The sociological buzzwords were invented to describe the movie.

Lesbian here.

Just a reminder that we are taking over. The fact is women have NEVER been attracted to men: we needed them for protection, economic support and procreation, and sex is what we traded for those things (or they just raped us).

But now? First-world men have been totally domesticated, so no need to worry about violence. We're taking over the work force too, so we can provide for ourselves. And medical science has made procreative sex totally unnecessary; we can just buy the sperm (with our superior earnings) and have it cleanly injected without getting within ten feet of a penis.

Women are naturally more attracted to other women. Who wouldn't be? We're beautiful, soft and smooth and curvy, basically the opposite of hairy oafish ape-like men. And we know how to please each other like no man ever could. Lesbian sex can last for hours.

Every day more and more "straight" girls are being turned. The world of the future is where a small number of strong men act as our designated studs and the rest of you losers are eunuchs designated for manual labor exclusively. Deal with it.

>>12433636
Are you seriously implying that masculinity has no negative qualities? Masculinity isn't all bad, but it has flaws that can prove destructive if the masculine individual has no moral compass.

>>12433669
They weren't designed to reflect those terms, correct. Despite that though, they display individual characteristics that would go on to define the distinction between toxic and positive forms of masculinity.

>>12433699
Honestly, toxic masculinity is a pop cultural term, not an academic one. Social justice-y college professors will cross it out and not know what it means.
Also
>the most ardent chauvinist would agree that some masculine behavior is harmful
When? I don't think so

>>12433725
>Are you seriously implying that masculinity has no negative qualities?
No, I'm not. What I am saying, however, is that the word "masculinity" is not very massively seen in a negative light. Since this is the case, the phrase "toxic masculinity" is much more potent in its potential for alienation than if some other word or phrase were used in its place.

>>12433686
It is. However, it is a lot easier to behead a king than to make all the peasants kings.

>>12433725
I think toxic masculinity is a valid term. I think the whole "Islam" vs. "Islamism/Islamic extremism" kind of mirrors it though. It's difficult to take a stance against certain aspects of a group of people without coming across as though you legitimately are against the entire group or culture.

That being said, it is true that stupid masculine insecurity gets people killed, like with Elliott Rodgers, and it also influences the world stage. You could say King George beheading all his wives because they couldn't give him sons (he was the one who couldn't make sons) was toxic masculinity.

>>12433712
>The fact is women have NEVER been attracted to men: we needed them for protection, economic support and procreation, and sex is what we traded for those things (or they just raped us).
Women, why are you being smug about your own design product being garbage? Get rid of sexual dimorphism by breeding with feminine guys already and fix your error.

>>12433727
>When? I don't think so
Any of these
>>12432856
>>12432867

>>12433763
>That being said, it is true that stupid masculine insecurity gets people killed, like with Elliott Rodgers
That wasn't exactly peak masculinity.

>>12433780
Yeah, but it was a masculine urge

>>12433778
Yeah, I see what you mean. I was being nitpicky because of the "most ardent chauvinist part." I think the most ardent chauvinist is the guy in the gym who tells his injured friend he's a pussy for not lifting.

I think, because its a poorly defined pop culture term, "toxic masculinity" has slowly started to mean any masculine behavior that is harmful to anyone, which there are already other words for. The loose definition of the concept is really what hurts it. If there were a definitive author of the term who could outline it's parameters then we could point to certain uses of it as "wrong" but it was kind of carelessly coined by anonymous posters.

>>12433712
>First-world men have been totally domesticated, so no need to worry about violence.

have you seen the age/favorite book/how many fights thread?

>>12433802
It was his mental illness causing him to conflate human beings with commodities pair with sociopathic status maximizing. Both of these are actually more toxically feminin than anything

>>12432759
There is no such thing as "toxic masculinity"

Theres real masculinity and toxic behavior. When women make false rape accusations and marry men only for their money, we don't call that "toxic feminity".

>>12433839
It was also because women wouldn't sleep with him and he was jealous of other men.

>>12433712
You must be as ugly as the worst smegma-eating incel this website has.

>>12433847
He wanted to be the Mary Sue of manly power dynamics. His reaction was the typical evil one: "If I can't have it, no one can!"
And so it went that Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.

>>12433847
He didn't give a fuck about sex, he cared about status and how people perceived him. That is feminine behavior. If he gave a fuck about sex, he would have set out to rape.

>>12433839
>no emphasis being placed on emotion
>feminine

Cold, clinical rationalism is a generally masculine quality. It's why autism is a predominantly male phenomena (girls can be autistic too, but only low functioning ones lose their people skills as a result).

Actually considering the emotions of others and being to read them is a feminine quality.

>>12433899
Status is how men have always historically attracted women and sex is all about status. What do you think trophy wives are for.

Masculine institutions reflect this. Wall street is all about how nice your haircut is and how pretty your mistress is. Rappers always brag by associating themselves with drug kingpins and talking about how bad their bitches are. The military has a hierarchy where you respect the status of your superiors. Status is when people kiss your ring.

Thinking that status-seeking is feminine is just weak behavior.

>>12433122
Destablilization.

>Read about how Rome fell.

>>12433920
There was absolutely nothing rational about Roger, and he wrote an entire fucking maniesto on his feelings. He was autistic but he was raised by women and he developed their pathologies

Lmao this world is going to the shitter. Get out while you can.

>>12433946
Yeah, but he thought he was being rational, and he thought he was being unemotional. But actually he was just a man-baby taking his own failures out on the world.

>>12433938
what's the source on this? Spengler?

>>12433977
His feminine desire. You say male institutions are about status, but you're dead wrong. Status is means to an end for men. For women, status is be-all end-all. Women are in a never ending battle with each other over status.

>ctrl+f
>"jew"
>no matches

>>12433920
>Cold, clinical rationalism is a generally masculine quality.
like odysseus choosing between charybdis and scylla

considering the emotions of others and being to read them is a feminine quality....
consider this passage from scroll VIII of odyssey and you might see your error

‘Leaders and Counsellors of the Phaeacians, hear me, and let Demodocus still his ringing lyre, since his song fails to give pleasure to all alike. From the moment of our feast when our divine bard was inspired to sing, this stranger has never stopped his sad grieving, his heart must surely be overflowing with sorrow. Let the bard refrain, and let us enjoy ourselves, hosts and guest alike: that would be better.

>>12433937
>What do you think trophy wives are for.
thats the argument in scroll 1 of iliad

>>12433978
The Fate of Empires
John Bagot Glubb

>>12434000
Timê

>>12433946
What he did was rational from the standpoint of a complete sociopath.
>Everyone hates me+I have nothing to lose= I might as well kill as many people as I can

The problem was that he was emotionally retarded. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "Stacies" he killed were actually just regular girls leading a normal life, rather than the heartless thots he portrayed them as in his manifesto. Rationalism taken to it's extreme without any consideration for emotion is destructive, and Elliot is proof of that.

there´s no such thing as toxic masculinity, it´s just a feminist buzzword, toxic persons exist though and most 4th wave feminists are toxic people, they´re just projecting their insecurities onto men (kinda like incels do it with women in general)

>>12434026
/thread

>>12432856
Now that's integrated thinking right there.

>>12432759
it's like toxicity, but exclusively for men. try talking about toxic femininity and you'll be ran out of town by the women AND the men. it's an example of sophisticated nagging.

>>12432842
your use of quote marks shows you never addressed sensitivity proper.

>>12433843
Good point Anon

>>12432759
A meme and a spook. Don't waste your brain time thinking about it.

>>12433053
This is a great example of toxic masculinity, please keep positing

It's when men do things that are potentially harmful to the female agenda.

>>12433843
The idea of "toxic masculinity" is that it's a set of cultural norms that push men to behave in destructive ways. Your example doesn't work because bar hysterical /pol/ conspiracies there isn't a cultural push for women to make false rape accusations or marry men only for their money. Well, maybe there is for marrying men for their money, but I'd say that majority of the time that's still viewed as poor behavior.

>>12434108
The examples of toxic masculinity are typically actions harmful to other men and / or oneself though, not women.

how come females never lift cars off of people involved in fiery wrecks?

>>12434124
Masculinity comes in all forms stop trying to contain it you freak.

>>12434143
2 useless females in the picture fretting and getting in the way.

>>12434147
I literally have no idea what you're trying to say or what point you're trying to make

You know what would improve this thread is if anons gave some FUCKING EXAMPLES of what they think wrongly or rightly is a behavior labeled as "toxic masculinity". There's literally no way of judging anyone's arguments when you haven't defined what the fuck you're even condemning or supporting.

>>12434147
:(

>>12434007
Oh, that retard.

>>12433712

>>12433765
>>12433834
>>12433866
Leave this board, imagine being so blinded by your hatred of women that you fall for bait _this_ fucking obvious

>>12433765
that would be taking responsibility, which is alien to the femoid

>>12434218
>responsibility, which is alien to the femoid
Lol, mong

>>12432842

>>12434210
>hatred of women
>want everyone to look like them
>want women/bait to make sense
Umm...

>>12434168
Here's my take on it.

Actual toxic masculinity:
>rape
>prejudice based on sex or race
>chauvinism
>glorification of violence
>tribalism


Things wrongfully called toxic:
>admiring a woman's appearance sexually
>locker room banter
>men choosing to be assertive
>any positive portrayal of a masculine figure

Only a fringe group complain about things in the second category though-- Primarily radfems who believe language enforces the patriarchy (which as an aside I'd argue is a mere symptom of patriarchy rather than the cause).

>>12432856
basd

>>12432759
1) I'll try to steer clear of any conspiracy theories when I say this, only posting because I don't see this exact take in this thread-
I believe it's possible to use the phrase "toxic masculinity" in a non-shitty way.
I knew a guy in college who was extremely insecure in his masculinity. He had anger issues, but they were most frequently agitated when he perceived an affront to his masculinity. When a guy hit on his girl, he went outside and punched a tree. He drove like a maniac because he liked how it made him look, and how it kind of freaked out people in the car. He fucked up a prime research opportunity because I was in charge of it (I'd been engaged with the program for a while longer than him) and he felt he should have been in charge of it. He desperately wanted to be in a dominant postion and have some kind of masculine authority respected. His idea of masculinity was actively fucking up his life, hence- toxic masculinity. This is also what an online feminist will say they mean by toxic masculinity if you were to force them to divulge their own definition- those aspects of masculinity which cause harm to men and the people around them.
One issue though is that nobody has considered what it's like to be a dude, or what kinds of things men care about. In my opinion, men are very status conscious (leading to a classic trait of a male ego), competitive, and physical. This may be social, it's probably a little bit biological, but it's found in men from all cultures. Couple examples to help support this argument (I have no idea how to properly formulate an argument for this and I'm aware that I'm cherry picking from anecdotes but I think it makes some intuitive sense): your average guy will not want to settle down with a chick who's had 1000s of 1 night stands. Women don't understand this unless they try to understand a man's constant positioning of himself against his peers- if his peers didn't expend emotional effort on this chick and he does, that makes him a chump. It's an affront to his dignity, and yeah a little bit his ego. Does this make stoning rape victims ok? No. Does this make socially excluding slutty chicks ok or looking the other way when they are victims of crimes? No. But if you don't understand why a guy wouldn't want to marry a slut, you don't understand men.
Another example. Physical confrontations between boys used to be quite common, hell, we used to have physical confrontations between teachers and young men where the teacher would actually beat them to get them back into line. I don't know about you guys but I grew up tussling with my friends and sometimes enemies, it was a perfectly fine way to solve conflicts and at worst ended in a shiner or bruise. Men tend to police themselves in these types of confrontations, they're really different from an attempted murder or criminal assault.

>>12434157
Toxic masculinity term itself is some weak ass attempt to control men, if you want to have any masculinity to begin with you need to realize there's going to be all kinds of flavours you can't just pick the best. Can't do much if some men are slaves to women due to their biology and not B&R like minassian and rodgers.

>>12434290
2) And any reasonable person agrees that there's no place for brutal, life-affecting violence or sustained bullying in an educational environment. But that's not what most boys engage in when they fight. We have a zero tolerance policy for violence in our schools, but we don't have any kind of zero tolerance policy for the way girls conflict. You can't get kicked out of all public schools and arrested for coordinating with someone's group of friends to demean them by ignoring them for months on end, or tormenting them socially. Female ways of conflicting are perfectly accepted.
So when someone talks about toxic masculinity they want to claim that they're solving a problem of self destruction, and they implement punishments for behavior that often isn't self destructive at all. It's a movement against a benign set behaviors that a feminist ideologue will either purposefully mischaracterize as especially harmful. Normal male qualities and behavior, which a female (or man who has only been exposed to female perspectives, as we continually see), has never attempted to understand or empathize with, are equally pathologized as the very worst of male behavior (which, again, I admit exists and should be limited through some meaningful effort), often with brutal punishments.
So basically it's men and women who don't understand or care to understand the nuances and value of a way of being in the world deciding it's pathological and punishing it as if it was entirely the worst versions of itself.

>>12432759
Since this is /lit, I'm going to recommend Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit.
Essentially it's when men cling to an identity of masculinity at the expense of their own sense of pleasure. This eventually turns into an all out pathological resistance to pleasure in it's entirety.
Basically, you know it's toxic when someone brings up semen retention as like a cool bro thing to do

>>12434277
>>prejudice based on sex or race
Are you implying that only men can be racist and sexist?
>>glorification of violence
Are you implying women don't glorify violence?
>>tribalism
Are you implying that women don't take part in tribalism?

>>12434306
Isn't that such a distinctly american perspective? Just believing that if you deprive yourself of something you really enjoy it will make your life better somehow? Seems more protestant than male.

>>12434277
>glorification of violence
This is what women validate directly. What impact men have had is the reduction of violence and turning it into sports and competitions. Women however, get wet at the sight of a killer and breed them, send love letters to serial killers and so forth.
Not all women, of course, but a sizable chunk.

>tribalism
Group strategies emerge among social animals. To avoid efficiency, communication, hygiene, loyalty and functionality deficits, closer relatives are selected over strangers. Perfectly natural. The toxic version of tribalism is genocidalism or something like that. Or on the other side of the spectrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMG-LWyNcAs

>>12433712
ok b8

>>12434306
A classic example of a fulfilled male fantasy is high risk, unknown reward type situations. Driving 160+km/h, downhill skiing at high speeds, no helmet...

>>12434309
No to all of those, but it's less common in the case of women.

Women can be racist and sexist (this fact is well documented), but the racism is often informed by them surrounding themselves with other racists, and sexism is usually either
A. a product of them adhering to sexism against women forced upon them by their peers
Or
B. Misandry. Which is a different type of sexism to misogyny as misandrists tend to despise masculinity.

>>12434298
>And any reasonable person agrees that there's no place for brutal, life-affecting violence or sustained bullying in an educational environment.

the spartans disagree

>>12434344
Have you read any of the accounts of the radically anti-hierarchical feminist groups of the 60s and 70s?
These are entirely feminine groups, often on compounds isolated from the entire masculine world, and they went horribly wrong in entirely new ways.

>>12434353
Waste of resources and lives, inhumane, etc. Weird little city state from history, nothing to model yourself after unless you're into gay bdsm roleplay as a lifestyle.

Read some email that said 'toxic' was the most used word of the year.
I think the real point here is that people are disgusted with each other. They know what other people are thinking thanks to the internet, and they don't like it. It's like having everyone who ever hated each other in the history of mankind get invited to the same orgy, or 4chan basically.
When you hear someone say toxic, I think it's safe to assume that they are talking about people that they don't like. If you ask them to point out a person, they will likely come up with someone that they believe everyone hates in the public square, and then call that person toxic.
You might as well say anyone you don't like is toxic. Vegans are toxic, democrats, republicans- anyone who isn't sucking your dick or doing and saying nice things is now some sort of sludge pool that needs to be sandblasted off the face of the earth.
Living with people that you don't like is hard, but complaining about them is exhausting. It's far more wise to conserve energy and avoid and adjust to them as much as possible and bide your time until you can escape their swampy ass grasp.

>>12434317
I'm over simplifying it a bit. Yeah hedonism can go over board, but complete anti-hedonism is also very real and that's when people go nuts and start killing people. Pathologically, the thought process is very similar to what the SJW's call toxic masculinity. (Which is a terrible term because it's so vague or doesn't mean anything on it's own. Still, there is an important kernel of truth behind it all)

>>12434344
How is misandry different in any way from misogyny? Also, do forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe that misandry is wildly more acceptable in society than misogyny. You won't be hearing news of a woman losing her job for making hateful comments towards males.

>>12434359
I've heard vague rumours about them, but I'd be interested in knowing more about them. Do you know where I can find these articles?

>>12434344
Also, racism spreading through contacts with racist doesn't just affect women, or are you implying that racist men are born that way and that women are manipulated into being so?

>>12434359
Sounds interesting, any good books on it?

>>12434371
Absolutely. There are some truly fucked up ways masculinity can be expressed. My point is that the term toxic masculniity is using these situations to attempt to pathologize an entire spectrum of behavior that's generally a good thing, if a little alien to the women who are running the blogosphere.
Helpful to remember that this affects absolutely nothing in the real world. Even corporate HR departments, they will never be a meaningful force in your life.

>>12432759
Kys loser

>>12434381
>>12434385
Yeah I read it on a scanned .pdf of a zine from the 90s a while ago, I will try to find it but no promises. It's out there though, so if you're interested you should seek it out on your own.
There's also a lot of academic articles on this period of time but they're hard to find and often behind paywalls and shit.

>>12434378
Because people put additional weight to hatreds that further existing inequalities in society. Someone hating people who play tennis is weird and you'd probably judge them negatively for it, but it's not really hurting anyone. On the other hand a man being openly hateful to women is hurting people and continuing an inequality. Women hating men doesn't do that, unless you're a /pol/ poster and think women are actually a cabal that run the world.

>>12434381
>>12434385
The main take away as I remember is the more radically a group maintained an anti-hierarchical structure, the more socially dysfunctional they were. I'm not saying it's a linear relationship or anything but the groups highlighted who pursued this type of radical structure were failures and some people still aren't talking to each other.
I'm not saying we need fascistic hierarchy or something but my interpretation of the moral of the story was that our current structure of society is maybe due to a bunch of other experimental structures historically failing. It was pretty edgy to include it in a feminist zine, idk.

>>12432964
If you don't cry when Argos dies you don't have a soul.

>>12434436
damn right

>>12434434
Were they attempting to remove ALL hierarchies? That seems pretty insane, even hardcore anarchists only want to remove unjust or unnecessary ones, not enforce complete equality.

>>12434460
yeah I'm not really sure. Probably shouldn't have brought it up as I'm not entirely familiar, I was hoping someone would swoop in with a link.
Yeah it was a radical feminist hierarchy removal type thing though. There weren't any leaders, it was a democratic experiment I think.

"toxic masculinity" itself is just a spook but that doesn't mean being a jerk is ok.

>>12434424
>it doesn't harm anyone
Look, I'm a feminist, and I believe women are suffering from a great deal of social injustice, but I have to disagree.

Misandrist comments being the norm simply undermine the suffering of men in modern society. There are women who have sexually assaulted men and gotten away with it. The courts are also biased towards women and their claims under the automatic assumption that the female is the "victimised" party.

What we should be pushing for is for men and women to be held to the same ethical standards, because only then can women be treated as humans rather than objects (deified or otherwise).

>>12434424
I believe that women hold more power in society than they make it out to be. After all, they can apply for the same jobs, the same political posts and pretty much compete in every field with men.
How is it more hurtful to have an office drone say some misogynistic comment than a female judge spout misandrist comments? Is it simply because of their gender?

>>12434434
Sounds like the problem was the anti-hierarchy rather than the feminine aspect. I'm going to guess that it may have been more successful if they adopted an anarchist model of hierarchy. I don't think there have actually been any proper anarcho-feminist societies to my memory.

>>12433617
>asking the real questions

>>12434393
I wouldn't characterize it as "generally a good thing." Resisting pleasure is a net negative if it isn't done to serve a specific goal. Sure it creates good things, but it's also why people knock good things down. At best it's neutral, and it's important to keep an eye on it