/lit/ - Literature

The Toyota Way by Jeffrey Liker. The guy from your pic should read it, his employees would do all that shit he's wishing for then.

if you like communism so much, there are communes you can go to that practice it, they've always been there. You could even start your own, with like minded individuals, since most current ones are religiously oriented.

Or you could go to a communist country. Your dreams are closer than you realize.

>>12398867
>this is what cucktalists actually believe is a valid argument in response to legitimate criticisms of the current globally dominant economic system everyone has to deal with on some level

Gaddis - J R

>>12398892
Your solution to a broken system is to replace it with an even more broken system?

>>12398906
maybe if you go retarded enough the thing wraps around somehow and we end up in a great place

>>12398906
You don't have to throw away the entire machine to fix a faulty drive mechanism. The current form of corporate capitalism didn't even exist in most of the world 150 years ago.

>>12398912
you have no alternative drive mechanism

>>12398909
Unlikely.

>>12398914
Regional Republicanism

>>12398912
But why communism?

>>12398892
>Cucktalists
Can we please stop forcing the word cuck into everything? Thanks for your cooperation.

>>12398892
>I need to go to a pointy-roofed church to be around others like me or it's not real religion
>I need to go to a nudist colony to be around others like me or it's not really nudism
>I need other people with me at the restaurant or it's not really eating

why is everyone so cowardly and afraid to simply do things on their own. can you answer me that, Coward, the communist?

>>12398849
This would be Marx's ideal world though

>>12398920
Who said anything about communism? It's not my fault cucktalists are such brainlets that they buy into a false dichotomy to prop up a shitty-as-constituted system. Think outside the box.

>>12398921
"No."

capitalism works just fine
stop crying

>>12398936
>Think outside the box.
I'm a national socialist, you don't need to tell me that. So what are you proposing, or are you just venting on your blog?

>>12398929
You a lolbertarian or something?

>>12398948
>So what are you proposing
Something like National Socialism, but on a more regionally autonomous scale. Something like the Tennessee Valley Authority but with more input and autonomy on development at the local level.

>>12398954
yes and not an argument

>>12398958
What's your position on selling children?

>>12398957
Yeah nations seem to lose cohesion over a certain size, no argument from me.

>>12398918
that's just patchwork ultra-capitalism, which is a good thing but is still capitalism

>>12398959
only at a fair price

>>12398929
well, communism is about getting other people's stuff, if you have to actually work and get no stuff for free what's even the point?

>>12398973
Any price that is accepted by a buyer is by definition "fair".

we live in utopia, why do you want to ruin it?

>>12398980
not really

>>12398980
that's not the definition of fairness at all

>>12398849
>Books that best embody living in Late Capitalism?

Submission by Houllebecq.

One of the least talked about subjects is how liberal capitalist democracy is extremely nihilistic.

>>12398972
No one in this thread said anything about getting rid of capitalism entirely except the brainlet lolbertarians who let their limited imaginations run wild.

>>12398994
>>12398990
Free Market.

>>12398999
so why complain about capitalism instead of complaining about whatever you are actually trying to get rid of?

>>12398999
capitalism and judaism are two sides of the same coin. It has to go.

>>12399000
you are just saying words

>>12399005
A free market, by the very nature of the thing, is always fair. A free market simply means that individuals and companies are free to trade (or not trade) with one another. Nothing more; nothing less. The parties concerned trade money in exchange for products or services because they believe they are better off by doing so.

There's a reason they're called lolbertarians. The "free market" myth is worse than scientology.

>>12399003
Market exchanges and entrepreneurship are fine, but yes markets do not need to be capitalist to function and capitalism is a recent invention of questionable benefit to the vast majority of people subjected to it.

>>12399009
again, you are just saying empty words in circles

>>12399011
capitalism is not an invention, it's just a process that gets into motion once you get a high enough efficiency and feedback loops that grow that efficiency

once it's in motion you can't stop it

>>12399013
Yes, that is the essence of libertarianism.

>>12398998
>Submission by Houllebecq.

I actually own this already, how long does it require to read?

>>12399015
>once it's in motion you can't stop it
That's where you're wrong.

To all the asspained defenders of capitalism in this thread I just say one thing:

If there's one thing that should change in capitalism it is that the workers should own the factories they work in as a collective. It not only is more fair because the profit will be shared across all the workers instead of being given to a minority, but it will also make workers care about their employment.

This is called a worker co-op, and it is more just than the current oligarchical and undemocratic private property system that exists right now.

I hope I don't have to remind you guys that Jeff Bezos pays a portion of his employees such a shit pay they qualify for food stamps.

>>12399017
Not long, it 's like 300 pages.

>>12399020
mustache man lost, proving me right

>>12399022
>If there's one thing that should change in capitalism it is that the workers should own the factories they work in as a collective

What is the largest example of that working you can cite?

>>12399022
that's fine and all, but it doesn't solve capitalist dynamics in the long term, for example if factory A workers are better or more lucky than factory B workers they will accumulate more capital, and if factory B workers fail catastrophically at some point they would have to either cuck to factory A for help, or a totalitarian government will have to force factory A workers to help factory B workers, at which point workers won't own their own production

>>12399036
>What is the largest example of that working you can cite?

Mondragon Corporation.

>>12399036
mondragon, but they aren't commies, they are ultra-traditionalist catholic traditionalists

>>12398917
If you read the communist manifesto then you’ll know that actual communism only exists in tribal communities or people like the Amish. The Soviet Union and North Korea aren’t communist countries. Does your county have: currency, government, or class? Then it’s not communist.

>>12399048
*sorry, second "traditionalists" should be "distributists"

National Primitivism when?

>>12399051
those are traditionalist communities, not communist in any sense

>>12399022
no thanks, I think the dude who made the factory with his money should keep it

>>12399043
>but it doesn't solve capitalist dynamics in the long term

I never said it did, I just said it was a more fair system than the system we have today.

Your claims that it requires totalitarianism are spurious to me tbqh.

>>12399067
>the dude who made the factory

Except that's the point you retard. Capitalists don't make anything, they just move capital around. Workers are the ones who make everything.

>>12399073
i'm not saying it requires totalitarianism, i'm just saying it doesn't solve any of the inequality issues with capitalism and just reproduces them in the long term, you are just restarting capital accumulation but in the next generations you'll have the less efficient workers wagecucking to the more efficient workers, which means just standard capitalism

>>12399084
as long as usury is punishable by death the amount of corruption will be limited.

>>12399075
they get paid for their work. if you want to own the means of production, make your own factory. oh wait, that would take actual risk and effort, right?

>>12399088
mostly it would take capital, which means debt.

>>12399084
So you actually think there's zero difference between profit being funneled down to the workers who actually own the factory, instead to a board of directors and stockholders who use that capital to further enrich themselves?

Like I said, I agree with you that it doesn't completely solve the problems of capitalism, but it would still be a huge improvement to the system because a small oligarchy wouldn't get all the surplus value.

>>12399092
of course it would, what about it?
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/smallbusiness/article-2809685/Top-25-self-entrepreneurs-started-small-sums-money.html

>>12399098
i'm saying in the long term there's no difference between a board of directors and stockholders and an efficient or lucky worker
>but it would still be a huge improvement to the system because a small oligarchy wouldn't get all the surplus value.
but they would, on the long term, capital accumulates, either by luck or by being more efficient some workers will end up with more capital, which will allow them to accumulate even more capital, unless you squash capital accumulation somehow

can you retards stop thinking of economy as a big pie? just because your employer makes billions doesn't mean he's stealing from you.

>>12399112
Well I guess this is the true difference between reformism and revolution then, because I think workers co-ops being the norm would be an improvement to the system, but you wouldn't support it because it isn't radical enough.

Well, good for you. I don't care.

>>12399117
The only reason the employer makes billions is because he has workers who get paid less money than the value of what they produce.

>>12399022
>it is that the workers should own the factories they work in as a collective
Fuck no, workers don't know what they are doing. A guy assembling boxes doesn't know shit about running a company. Companies work because their entire mission is producing profit and nothing else. Once you add all sorts of other interests then the company becomes inefficient and as a result the entire economy becomes inefficient.

We already have better ways to fix those problems you have described: labour unions, taxation and profit sharing.

>>12399124
well, i'm not against it, and i am against revolution, i'm just don't think it's a complete solution

at some point you'll have to either steal production from the workers and redistribute it, setup a system based on other values beyond ownership of your our production, or be ok with reproducing capitalist dynamics that you were trying to avoid in the first place

>>12399126
supply and demand.
anybody can move amazon packages around, even if half of the Amazon employees quit the job, they would all be replaced in a few days/week.
if you want higher wages, stop voting for more immigration.

>>12399132
The problem isn't high or low wages you buffoon. The problem is the system itself; the people who do all the work aren't the people who get all the wealth.

This shit is obvious to a common sperglord liberal like you when the topic is slavery.

>>12399131
>at some point you'll have to either steal production from the workers and redistribute it

Well I never said we should abolish taxation, or state welfare spending just because I am in favor of worker co-ops.

>>12399152
we have taxation now, it doesn't solve inequality and prevent classes from forming and it wouldn't either in a system with coops

>>12399160
It doesn't 'solve' inequality, but not having welfare programs makes life spectacularly worse for a lot of people.

>>12399147
slavery isn't voluntary, employment is.
>the people who do all the work aren't the people who get all the wealth.
amazon workers wouldn't have any packages to move around if jeff bezos didn't take the risk to make his own company and he only did that because of the financial incentive.

>>12399174
>slavery isn't voluntary, employment is.

Really? How voluntary is it that most people have to work for a capitalist for a living exactly?

It's either that, or starve to death.

>>12399279
You might as well complain about breathing too. You have to produce value to receive value.

You can choose who you work for. You can even start your own business. Or become an arstist/content creator and let the crowd fund you directly.
And if that fails then the state takes care of you. It won't be luxory, but no citizen starves to death in a western nation.

You are just a whiny bitch who wants stuff for free without contributing anything.

>>12399313
Thing is, capitalists have the same interests.

And those interests are to pay their employees as little as possible, and extract as much value from them as possible, so it doesn't matter if you change employer.

>>12399318
Go in a different field if the labor market is so over-saturated that an employer can afford to underpay you. There are too many people who are willing to do the job for cheap. That is the cause of the low wages for that particular job in that particular field.

Now if that is the case for a lot of jobs, then you have a government problem, because there are too many immigrants or too many people with poor education who are willing to fill these low-skill low-paying jobs.

try Buddhism

>>12399355
buddhism is not a book

>>12398912
>Laughs in dollar bills

>>12399318
This, i can give you an example forma polish town that is booming with giant business IBM top investor firms all nord companies that cant afford the price there are moving to poland. But the average wage is 400euro why? because they dont want to increases the pay, becasue they will have to move to some poverty land again in a few years. So some offises stay hlaf empty instead of offering more money for the job.
Im not saying communism is this answer because that is even worse

Commies are like little children in their arguments
It's a puerile fantasy view of the world they have but we're supposed pretend it's a valid ideology
It's pathetic

>>12399415
Plantation owners said the same thing about abolitionists, as did kings and vassals say to liberals and republicans before them.

You're just proving you want to retain a system that mostly works in a minority's favor.

>>12398892
>>12398906
>if you point out that capitalism isn't a perfect system without any flaws whatsoever you are clearly a communist

>>12399475
If your only alternative is socialism then yes

>>12398917
this is completely true though, at no stage has there ever been a communist country. War Communism in Russia was the closest anyone has ever gotten.

There are completely legitimate criticisms of communism, you should learn some of those instead of repeating this tired meme.

>tfw /pol/ unironically turned me from a conservative to a socialist

>>12399483
that's because communism means literally nothing, it just means power is not organized through markets, but it says nothing about how to actually organize power, so every time anybody actually tries to organize power in communism you can complain it's not real communism because it doesn't fit your arbitrary criteria

>>12399483
Because everyone fails trying to get there. The fact that you can't get there is by itself the most valid criticism of Communism.

>>12399507
I was actually going to say that in my post. If anything, they should be celebrating the fact that there has never been a communist state instead of spouting that same line over and over.

>>12398849
Reminder if you genuinely hate jews you should be anti-capitalist. The people who are most self interested and sociopaths will always win.

Also can someone explain why 4chan of all places is so pro capitalism? In a place knwon for contrianism they advocate for the status quo. Shouldn't contrarianism mean collectively 4chan should lean towards some other random ass ideology. Obviously there's nazis and commies but they seem to less over the years.

>>12399174
Why defend fucking bezos of all people? It blows my mind. A man that powerful and people fucking defend him. Bezos started it all becasue he already came from wealth. The rich have a leg up and we just get the scraps and you defend that. People would love to start there own factories, they often do, but the size of amazon is impossible as the current structure means they can't. The richest family in venice from the 15th century is still the richest family in venice. guess how much work they've done in 500 years

>>12399499
>arbitrary criteria
it's been well defined since the 18th century. You just can't accept that.

>In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal")[1][2] is the philosophical, social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]
200 years it has been this. 200 fucking years

>>12399526
It's something I find quite funny. A lot of the problems they have with their governments are actually symptoms of capitalism.

>>12399532
>structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]
it's arbitrary, ownership has no meaning in communist theory, and your sentence says absolutely nothing about how to organize anything, just about how NOT to organize it, which means it's an empty negative ideology, as i mentioned above

>>12399526
2016 brought tons of reddit MAGApedes and SJWs who use this website as a battleground for their specific form of retarded identity politics. Even as late as 2012 the majority of 4chan shat on Romney and supported Ron Paul, now its a bunch of literal boomers and teenagers who think being a cucktalist is edgy even though their SJW opponents are essentially neoliberal corporate shills as well.

So how do anti-capitalists propose to stabilize human fertility? Or is there some other way an eternally growing population can be sustained besides the most robust, efficient economy possible?

Or is this just some thinly veiled, naive gripe about our shrinking value on the labour market?

>>12399551
I'm not a commie or anything, but birth rates were higher in Russia under Communism than capitalism.
>the most robust, efficient economy possible
oh no no no no

Reminder that 99% of people decide the political value of a movement based on how cringe it is. Everyone in this thread is supremely cringe... you expect to topple capitalism or liberate the market from the state while talking like this? Pathetic!

>>12399560
>this entire post
*snap*

>>12399550
It's a sad state of affairs. If you point out the way 4chan used to be, you'll be accused of being from Reddit by people who have been on 4chan for, at most, four and a half years.

>>12399560
but when you invest into something cringe then you are more likely to stick with it, because if it loses power everybody will realize how cringe you were

if you believe in something based you can abandon it very easily because having believed in something based won't look bad on your character retroactively

>>12399571
good point... solicits high investment but low support...

ITT faggot capitalists calling people communists because they can't take criticism

>>12399556

How would putting the state in charge of the economy make it any more efficient?

>>12399551
>So how do anti-capitalists propose to stabilize human fertility
By not making their lives so miserable that they think child brith is bad. Right now young couples can't afford houses or anything that would mean having a child is worth it. So now capitalists want tonnes of 3 rd world immigrants to make up for it. Capitalism is killing the white race. In the USSR the birth rate was higher lmao

>>12399545
>ownership has no meaning in communist theory
instead of one person owning the factory a group does and they make decisions democratically. There. Now you don't have to read anything. Also your reading comprehension is bad. Whtat I linked was a positive sentence you boomer

>>12399643
>instead of one person owning the factory a group does and they make decisions democratically
you just changed the magic word "ownership" with the magic word "democracy", congratulations on your word distraction techniques, but you still saying nothing positive about how to organize actual power

>>12399556
>>12399632
>birth rates were higher in Russia under Communism than capitalism
Birth rates are higher when there is higher child mortality, child labor is valuable, when there is no contraception and when women aren't having careers. Almost anyone in western capitalist nations can afford children, they just don't want to give up their careers and luxury living conditions for it. Even a single mother without job, living of welfare, has better living standards than most people in Russia under Communism.

>>12399643
>democratically
come on, you are just memeing, we all know that when you say democracy you don't mean representative democracy, and you surely don't mean direct democracy either, as in giving actually existing workers power of decision without having first given them proper "class awareness" (brainwashing by the communist elite), so you are just using democracy as a propaganda word but you don't mean it in any meaningful sense

>>12398892
Capitalist here. Capitalism is objectively correct but this post isn't wrong.

>>12399678
>implying capitalism is somehow a magic way to organize power

In most companies 3-4 people just make all the decisions m8, don't act like this is some kind of miraculous way of doing business.

pic related was a decent read.

it's a bit too po-mo maybe at times, but it really nicely captures the despair of limitless permissiveness of late capitalism

>>12399723
those 3-4 people making all decisions grow of a clear set of rules of how to organize power than in the long term allow capital accumulation, which i agree it's a bad thing, but the rules in a liberal society are clear

don't try to tell me there's anything clear about communism beyond wishful thinking and avoiding responsibility because i don't see it. I'm not necessarily against communism, but i see from left wing theorists is intellectual laziness, cowardice, misdirection and coping, it makes it difficult to take you seriously

i'd rather vote for christian distibutists even though i'm not christian, at least they have clear morals and objectives

>>12399723
The difference is their interest is making profit and they are selected based on their ability to do so. Their job is not representing anyone, they are part of a machine, not some kind of representative government system that cares specifically about its citizens beyond what is necessary to fulfill its function.

What you are proposing is necessarily less efficient because it conflates the point of a company (making profit) with the interests of its workers. That is why the capitalist way works and yours doesn't.

For regulation of these companies we have an actual government that gets elected by all citizens, not just people who happen to work for some company on a fluke. That way the regulations on those companies benefit all people, not just the people who happen to work for that company.

>>12399762
>What you are proposing is necessarily less efficient because it conflates the point of a company (making profit) with the interests of its workers. That is why the capitalist way works and yours doesn't.

What I am proposing is keeping the market itself and capital accumulation but that the capital accumulation is funneled to the workers who own the business as a group, and they decide what to do with it, instead of the 3-4 oligarchs at the top.

Both capitalists and communists hate this idea because for capitalists it means they are no longer in control of where capital goes next, and for communists it's not radical enough and doesn't change the system enough.

So if you think that my opinions are somehow liked by anyone, you're wrong.

>>12399787
how do you keep workers that are more successful from becoming capitalists?

>>12399794
Why would I keep them from becoming capitalists? They can quit their job if they want. Capitalism hasn't been abolished, people can still start businesses if they want just like in the old system, the point is to support worker co-ops as an alternative to oligarchical businesses over time and make people see that it is superior.

Anything else would be formal authoritarianism.

Capitalist pigs deserve nothing but an unmarked grave

Start the helicopters

>>12399787
>keeping the market itself and capital accumulation but that the capital accumulation is funneled to the workers who own the business as a group, and they decide what to do with it, instead of the 3-4 oligarchs at the top.
Yes and like I said that is a bad idea. The workers have conflicting interests with the function of the company. A company needs to be a hierarchical structure based on their usefulness regarding the purpose of the company. You can't have the janitor who only knows janitor business have an equal voice to the voice of the managers. Or even worse, get paid the same as the managers. The only way you could keep this system from collapsing would be hiring a lot of unnecessary managers whose educated votes can counterbalance the votes of the janitors, assemblymen, cafeteria staff and delivery guys.

>>12399907
>The workers have conflicting interests with the function of the company.

No, workers have conflicting interests with capitalists, not the function of a company.

>>12399762
>The difference is their interest is making profit and they are selected based on their ability to do so.
This is so true. I can't imagine why anyone would ever accept the current state of affairs unless for some reason other peoples profit seeking coincided with their own interests, but that would be absurd. Completely and utterly absurd. We better just stop thinking about it.

>>12400241
Only if you define the interests of the capitalists as "a functional economy".

>>12398906
>you don't like the flavor of capitalism we have right now?
>COMMIE!!!!!!!

Everyone read The Foundation for Exploration

>>12400301
Considering the criticism of capitalism has been dominated and tainted by marxists in the past, people just assume you are a marxist unless you offer some kind of non-marxist alternative to the aspect of captialism you are criticizing.

In other words: offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism or fuck off.

Makes some sense in a manufacturing economy but what do the workers exactly own in a service economy their computers? The software they use and had zero input to its creation?

>>12400320
sounds like a self-published meme-book

>>12400291
The interest of a capitalist is profit at the expense of anything else.

>>12398867
>Communist
>Being defeatist and just moving to a Socialist country instead of starting your own Revolution

>>12400331
you can't stir constructive criticism without criticism first friend. Sorry to upset you!

you can apply the same logic to communism btw

>>12400331
>you can only criticize my preferred system within the boundaries I establish
How about "fuck off"?

>>12400401
The fact that the agents of capitalism, the companies and their employees, are entirely focused on producing profit is what makes capitalism so powerful and superior to all other systems. This process is a machine which produces profit. That's why it works. If you try to make a company do anything else then you are missing the point. You are throwing wrenches into the machine so to speak.

And in pure capitalism this might be a problem, since the people have interests that are in conflict with the maximal profit production.
The company has an interest in keeping its workers happy and functional while they are working for them, but that is only the case as long as they aren't easy to replace. I.e. keeping them happy and working for the company is more profitable then not keeping them happy and working for the company.

Profit production is necessary and beneficial, but it's not the only thing people care about. For instance the environment, retirement and health care of the people who are not working. So the machine needs to be set boundaries.

Luckily we don't live in a society that has pure capitalism. We have the government which manipulates the parameters of the machine. For a company it is not profitable to pollute the environment if the penalties are heavier than the plus in profit. The same goes for all interests that would be in conflict with the interests of the people. That is what regulations are for. They limit the venues of profit for the companies so they don't engage in activities that are not in line with the interests of the people of the country. As long as people are aware of the nature of the beast, it can be used for greater benefit. Capitalism is a single minded machine and it can only do one thing. Problems come in when people mystify it and think it can do anything else.

>>12400455
You can criticize it outside of those boundaries, but then I will tell you to fuck off you dirty commie and throw you out of a helicopter.

>>12398983
No we do not. We live in a lottery. If you're born rich you're set for life, if you're born middle class you can go up or you can go down, and if you're born poor, like many people, you're fucked. And that wouldn't matter but the system favours the rich. How's that a utopia when people don't have the same initial resources?

>>12400560
how is that not utopia?

>>12398849
Imagine feeling a pang of resentment at this pic. Fuckin soccies

>>12400560
If you really believe this how do you make sense of the University of Michigan's Panel Survey on Income Dynamics which has been following over 50,000 people since 1968 and has this to say about income mobility:

-More than three-fourths of families in the bottom fifth of income distribution in 1975 had made their way up to the two highest income quintiles in 1991.

-The poorest families made the largest gains. Those who started in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 had an inflation-adjusted gain in annual income of 27,745 by 1991; those who started in the top 20 percent in 1975 also improved, but only by 4,354

-Less than 1 percent of the sample population remained in the bottom 20 percent during the 1975-1991 period

-More than half of the families who were in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 made it to a higher bracket within four years

>>12400521
So in other words, you agree with me that the profit motive can't come at the expense of *absolutely everything*, you're just unwilling to agree with my specific limit on it pertaining to the unequal power and wealth relationship between capitalists and workers.

Well that's fine. But I don't agree with you.

>>12400638
Social mobility notwithstanding, he's not wrong when he says being born rich is a free meal ticket because the system favors the rich.

>>12400682
What do you mean by free meal ticket? If you're saying person born in a rich family will have better educational opportunities, food, and so on which will help them throughout their lives, then sure. Being rich is beneficial and this is natural, just as 10,000 years ago the son of a skilled hunter was in a much better position to succeed in life than the son of a blind hunter.

If you're trying to say rich people don't regularly become poor then you're mistaken.

>>12400671
I agree that there should be limits set on the directions of profit growth from the outside of the capitalist system. But I disagree with everything else you said. And I think it shows a distinct misunderstanding of what capitalism is and how it works. Workers are also part of capitalism, your weird demonetization of "the capitalists" is especially misguided. The wealth accumulations around individuals or groups that maximize profit is itself a function of capitalism by the way. So by redistributing wealth you are also inhibiting the profit generation of the entire system.

>>12400725
I'm saying most people who are born into rich families, stay rich, and most people who are born dirt poor, stay dirt poor.

>>12400682
even if i agree that extreme social is bad, severing the link that unites families and creates a continuity of the past towards the future seems like an even worse solution

>>12400746
You're ignoring the facts I've given you which prove that poor people regularly become rich. If poor people are regularly becoming rich but rich people aren't regularly becoming poor, why aren't we all rich by now? This is because social mobility goes both ways. The rich are regularly becoming poor.

>>12400741
I think you should be careful with how you are wording your arguments because your antagonism towards workers and the constant words of approval for the supposed "efficiency" of capitalism can quickly make it sound like you're arguing for Chinese red capitalism.

After all, China is the most efficient capitalist economy on the planet; but nobody has any rights, nor does there exist any pollution controls or grand welfare schemes.

In other words it's a harrowing capitalist desert, but it is indeed very efficient.

>>12400762
>China is the most efficient capitalist economy on the planet
As proof we can look at all the ghost villages which are continually being constructed.

>>12400758
>You're ignoring the facts I've given you which prove that poor people regularly become rich.

I'm not ignoring them at all. They are just stats from the U.S during the era when the U.S economy had the most growth it has ever seen.

Meanwhile over a billion people on the planet live on $1.25, and they do until they die of old age or disease.

populism > socialism/comemeism

>>12400769
Well, you're the one who made the arguments that my system would destroy capitalism's efficiency.

So how about you don't move the goalposts faggot?

>>12400758
>poor people regularly become rich
Yeah, through the 60s and 90s. Try becoming rich now.

>>12400772
The study is ongoing and nothing as changed. If you want to talk about social mobility in capitalism maybe we should stick to capitalist countries. You're bringing up people in non capitalist countries as if it supports your argument. You people are baffling.

>>12400792
There does not exist any non-capitalist countries on the planet m8, so I don't know what you're talking about.

>>12400762
>China is the most efficient capitalist economy on the planet
No, it's not. There is an incredible amount of wasted resources. The only reason why they get ahead of western nations is that they don't care about working conditions or the environment and ignore intellectual property. They are taking advantage of the global free market capitalism by participating in it while ignoring its rules and while being an inefficient state capitalist nation themselves. Chinese people don't even buy chinese products unless they can't avoid it.

>>12400808
>The only reason why they get ahead of western nations is that they don't care about working conditions or the environment and ignore intellectual property.

Which are all things that limit the efficiency of capitalism you moron.

>>12400792
>You're bringing up people in non capitalist countries as if it supports your argument.
Not really. Lots of poor capitalist countries. Which makes wonder, what is the limit of capitalism? At what point do people stop becoming richer and rather staying the same or going poorer? And if so, are we at this stage now? College kids and millenneals and such?

>>12398849
Thoughts?
https://qz.com/978318/capitalists-are-destroying-capitalism-they-must-be-stopped/

>>12400827
Yes, if you read my posts above... those are the limits I advocated for.

>>12400842
Capitalists always destroy capitalism, which is why Keynesianism exists so the public can save them from bankruptcy, e.g socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

>>12399679
>Almost anyone in western capitalist nations can afford children
whew

>>12400854
There's nothing wrong within capitalism with buying the government. Afterall, if everything is for sale, and everything can be assigned a value, why not buy the apparatus of the state?

>>12400882
"Markets can’t create value if there are no public goods; if there is no infrastructure, no good educational system. We need governments and public action to do that."

>>12398973
Based

>>12400882
>commies & soccies don't realize that this is the biggest blow to their systems and undercuts all their criticisms of capitalism
Wew lad. Good post.

>>12400560
I was born extremely poor, in a house that didn't had floors and the walls were just bricks stacked on each other, in a third world shithole. And i ascended to upper middle class thanks to capitalism
Capitalism has its flaws, but in any other system i would have died poor

>>12400898
There is no intrinsic property of infrastructure or education that necessitates a state.

>>12399005
That's what talking is

>>12399480
But socialism is not the only alternative, so this is a nonstarter

>>12399017
You can read this in a week or less.

>>12398867
i'm a third positionist

>>12399043
>>12399073
>>12399084
>>12399098
>>12399112
Factory A, rid from the competition from factory B, would be able to hire their former employees, who would then join factory A and also become their owners, while helping factory A grow.

These

>>12400936
talking carries meaning

>>12400933
Yes it does. You can't just treat public entities as if they were private companies, since they requiere public funds to function. You can't own students, for instance, which are the final product of schools/unis. Once they're out they're free. And than wouldn't be profitable for your company. What you're proposing can only be done by an über mega huge omnipotent corporation that controls every industry in the nation and can allow itself such expenses.

>>12400943
What is your alternative then?

>>12400933
How about the fact that for-profit education without an alternative means children born poor will never develop any skills that could possibly allow them upward mobility? If you can't even afford to learn how to read, the world will fuck you endlessly. Education is already stratified under our current system and that makes it completely fail a huge number of young people.
Infrastructure is the same way - privately run infrastructure means it will be focused on the areas where it makes the most money, further widening the gap between rich fucks on perfect streets with clean water and poor fucks on gravel roads that have to boil theirs. Imagine how big of a shitshow it would be if telecoms only bothered giving phones and internet to the wealthiest, say, 20% of the country, abandoning the others as worthless drains.

>>12400342
It's not. Go to the free text and find the economics section.

>>12398867
>if you like communism so much, there are communes you can go to that practice it
A commune is not a communist country. That's being just a semi-hermit.
>Or you could go to a communist country.
Okay. Name one.
>>12398906
>Your solution to a broken system is to replace it with an even more broken system?
Imagine actually believing that Capitalism is broken and not simply intended to be gay as shit for the majority of people.

>>12400758
If you're rich and become poor, it's because you're stupid. If your poor and stay poor, it's because you never had a chance and the system is your enemy.

>>12400438
Faggot

>>12401432
cuba

>>12399415
i kind of want it so the retards that advocate it die

>>12398912
the cliche is
>throw the baby out with the bathwater

>>12402243
Page semi-protected
Communism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal")[1][2] is the philosophical, social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

>>12398849
Honestly shit like that is more of a early capitalism thing before states and the masses work out their dynamics with it.

>>12398849
This pic bothers virgins. The CHAD makes this himself.

>>12400846
>limits
You are a bitch

>>12402243
I'm not allowed in there, but I'm pretty sure they still use capital.

>>12400930
>anecdotal evidence
Yikes!

>>12403806
Based, i must take the goldpill and the ironpill this year. Im tired of living is this shitty meme NEET doomer state

>>12404405
>it's not real communism

every time holy shit, It's going to take two anime girls to laugh at you

>>12404405

>>12404763
No it isn't. This isn't a difficult concept

>>12404763
Are you fucking retarded? Communism, the economy where everything is shared equally and rationed out rather than sold, definitely fucking isn't happening in places that use money to divide resources rather than rationing.

>>12398849
>that image
WAKE ME UP

Rothbard, Mises, and Friedman all said that if you stop letting the goyim run things and let G-d's People take care of it, the messiah will come and bring forth the new world, the only real problem with capitalism is democracy keeps letting goyim vote in goyim to run it!

>>12406203
>only real problem with capitalism is democracy
Democracy is certainly it's biggest problem. It gives votes to people who are stupid enough to be manipulated into thinking shit like that the jews are the problem.

>>12404774
>>12405370
I feel bad for communists, no matter how hard they try, they'll never get real communism.

>>12406714
Do you feel bad enough to join us and steal a bunch of private property and wealthy lives?

>>12406820
I don't feel bad for communists, they're subhuman larpers.

>>12406655
The past ten years in America have been more than enough to convince me that democracy is self-defeating and always will be. The blatant corruption, the intentional reduction of morality to yelling about team sports, the manipulation that you'd have to be a retard to fall for but that hundreds of millions immediately do.
I abhor the goals of fascism, and while the goals of socialism and communism are admirable their implementation is always going to be rotting from the inside. I think the truth might just be that humans deserve ultracapitalism, and if we've worked so hard to make our own hell then to guide us out of it would be not just impossible but unjust.

What makes you think this is Late Capitalism? You still haven't seen doubleplusungood stomping drones hovering above or mandatory crimethink recognition software gaining worldwide use. Citizen points in China is just the first shy step.

>>12400930
>in any other system I would have died poor

Or, you wouldn’t have been in such a bad condition in the first place. I don’t know the specifics of your situation, and I won’t assume, but most socialists/communists envision a world where no one would have to live in such poor housing. Extreme wealth inequality is a product of capitalism.

>>12400930
Maybe you wouldn't have been born extremely poor under communism

ITT American cuckolds defend their capitalist masters and blather ignorance about anything not told to them via propaganda.

>>12399020

>they were the real socialists *privatises everything*

I am so sick of retards.

Late capitalism is a misnomer. It's just getting started.

>>12408064
Settle down, no one has specifically mentioned they were American.

>>12408562
I was always saying this.

Anyways, I'm trying to reflect on the economy of Star Trek which is (in the bulk of the canon) a moneyless society which still has status and - apparently - enough motivation for the people to do hard, dangerous jobs.
How far of is this - in principle? Can people get brainwashed enough (I mean that in a positive sense, really) that this is achievable?

Also, I try to understand how a confederation is different than just a bunch of states as we have it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

thanks a bunch

The complete alt lit corpus

>>12398867
>hating aspects of capitalism makes you a communist

>>12408605

YOU JUST KNOW.

There are disgusting neoliberals of any nationality though, I agree.

>>12407967
That's quite a big "maybe"

>>12409757

>America always trying to subvert countries that want to even slightly get away from capitalism the smallest bit

>why gommunism don't work Czechoslovakia libs xd u starve no mcdongles

>>12409865
falseflagging as a communist isn't helping anyone's argument

>>12409988

Tell me how I'm false flagging or how I'm wrong.

>>12398849
The Map and the Territory by Houllbecqe is an elegiac novel about the transition into Late Capitalism. Particularly haunting is the main character's (Jed Martin) final work of art.

>>12410198
My original post was that it was unclear if that anon would be better off financially if he was born under communism. It's unclear to me where the motive for such a blown-up response came from as I didn't mention anything about America or the functioning of a capitalist/communist system. I'm assuming that whoever replied either tagged the wrong post or is just falseflagging for t3h lulz - either way, here's your (you)

>>12398914
>what is social democracy

>>12408721
>Anyways, I'm trying to reflect on the economy of Star Trek which is (in the bulk of the canon) a moneyless society which still has status and - apparently - enough motivation for the people to do hard, dangerous jobs.
>How far of is this - in principle? Can people get brainwashed enough (I mean that in a positive sense, really) that this is achievable?
we are told people on earth live without money, eating cheetos and sucking each other's cocks

but the Star Trek is not about that, the series follows a subset of people living in a very strict hierarchical military-like organization

>>12410931
wtf are you talking about, social democracy is capitalism

>>12398932
This. Anyone who associates communism with redistribution reveals that they have never seriously read Marx.

>tranny thread got deleted
>this is still up
ah yes

>>12399036
JOHN LEWIS off the top of my head

>>12399088
>if you want to own the means of production, make your own factory. oh wait, that would take actual risk and effort, right?

No, it would require CAPITAL! please think though your position for a moment

>>12399338
>then you have a government problem, because there are too many immigrants or too many people with poor education who are willing to fill these low-skill low-paying jobs

it's pretty close minded to not be able to think beyond this anon - perhaps there are systematic improvements we could make (and then these would be by law, i.e. governmental)?

>>12399840
based

>>12398929
>lol why are people so afraid of being isolated from their peers?
>ummm just make a society on your own man that will definetely fix the problem, be the change you want to be in the world

Capitalism would work great if:
1.mom and pop businesses would return
2.corporations and money can't influence politics
3.workers are paid a decent enough wage that they can have the basic necessities
4.labor isn't outsourced

>>12413426
We're halfway there

>>12413426

>capitalism would work if it was not capitalism

>>12398849
There is no capital. Its great temples now but a realised fata morgana.
>Gold ceases to be the general equivalent at that very moment plastic organisms begin to chew microscoping holes through your intestines. When these species take over your soul, adding proclamations to your movements, humans take up the cause of species-being. This is something of an automatic interpretation of the human as the abstract horizon of all other species. Only at this point, so far beneath them, do you need to proclaim your superiority through furtherance of the need.
>Capital is bioaccumulating. The capitalists are jumping from buildings, or self-immolating from a futuristic battery—charged, no doubt, by the invisible hand of their masters. The economic calculations live on in the bleached sidewalks.
The fall obscured by the euphoria of it.
>Oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit. You don’t let it go, it let’s you go.
>There is no artistic production here, no cultural interpretation. You are hedged, a derivative of that which cannot be calculated. The accumulation of paper itself was used as an accelerant in laying to waste the temples of capital, and the paper acted as the outside obscurity of acceleration. The culture lay outside of it, staring in. Active in this was the abstraction of the horizon, its calming architecture. It was not the act itself, even, that was art—but the very processual act of hiding, burying.
>There was no assault on the center of capital—its towers merely valorised into economic heaven.

>>12398849
>literally half the boxes are about how they get paid too much and would gladly take less
I hate boomers

>>12413426
>mom and pop businesses would return
Consolidation into latifundae is fundamental result of free competition. There's no reason to buy a thing at mom&pop's for 1.5$ when you buy it at ShartMart for 1$
>corporations and money can't influence politics
Money represents power. Corporations are significant part of national economy and they also compete internationally, thus their interests are also national interests.
>workers are paid a decent enough wage that they can have the basic necessities
It makes no sense to pay workers more than the amount required to keep them from quitting the job. The money is demanded by supply and demand
>labor isn't outsourced
We like our shit cheap, if Chink can do the same job for 1/10 wage it makes sense to offshore the factory.

tl;dr those are fundamental features of the system

>>12413833
capitalism would work if it was not the defacto god of a state.

Friedrich Von Hayek's concept of market economics is a cybernetic concept: the market as a massive self regulating information exchange system, that's just been getting more and more efficient as the capacity to harvest information grows and grows. Our civilisation is built on the ruins of the war effort of the 40s and the subsequent dyonisian orgy of the 60s just like medieval civilisation was built on the ruins of Rome. hippies took to buckminster fuller's ideal of the comprehensive designer and the cowboy archetype of the american frontier, in the 70s and 80s, cyberpunk filled the vacuum left behind by utopia, the refuse and the remnant of runaway capital accumulation. Reagan and Thatcher were not conservatives, but revolutionary agents of deterritorialisation. Trump and May are nothing but degenerated clones of the original prototype. Our popular culture, now managed by investment bankers, focus groups and 'woke' 20th somethings, remains likewise fixated on the collective childhood of the 80s. social media becomes another way of enforcing repression and narcissistic dependency. The spectre of the alt right is just another disciplinary boogeyman, just like 'radical islamic terrorism' and the soviet international. It's relation to the liberal media and the frightened cyberserfs is one of codependency. a self regulating system means something else entirely when you are the one being regulated.

>>12399022
That'd be excellent up unti you take a Finance 101 class. Co-op can't rely on equity investing like other companies and thus will suffer from a relatively stunted growth

>>12399840
Be careful with that edge Eugene!

Well, we are all Fascists until we get hurt, Communists until we need to make money, Capitalists until we fall out of grace and Anarchists until we need to lead.

>>12399840
Hell yeah comrade, I hope to see you folx on the Chapo Trap House subreddit

>>12414137
Don't worry. Anime posters will lie in the same grave with you.

>>12414026
>Corporate interests are national interests
You putrid bootlicking faggot, my god
Do you not understand that if a system's fundamental features are so clearly opposed to the good of the average man, that system is evil and should not be tolerated? You just outlined exactly why modern capitalism is so dehumanizing and vile

>>12398849

>>12414166

Anarchism has leaders, though. Democratically (not American "democracy") chosen ones. There can be leaders without hierarchy. Those with more experience, those with better ideas, etc. If someone knows more than me at something I let them lead whatever is going on.

>>12398849
my diary desu

>>12414374
Yeah, but it brakes down to people doing whatever they want with nothing uniting them.

>>12414374
Perhaps lead was not the right word, but "govern".

>>12414505

No it doesn't. Where do you get this from?

>>12414510

Fair enough, pal.

>>12406895
You don't think the US is a democracy, right?

Please, tell me you haven't made that large of an error.

>>12415059
>No it doesn't. Where do you get this from?

Life, I guess.
All the Anarchists I know from way back have either opened small bussinesses together, commited suicides, struggle for some reasonable but niche political right or "excommunicated" themselves with seriour anti-social behaviour.

Pre-WW2 ideologies are a totally different universe imo.

>>12415096

Anecdotal evidence can't be taken as actual evidence. It seems like the people you knew were neoliberals. I will admit it is difficult to be an anarchist and, under capitalism, compromises must be made for survival. However, you and I are engaging in anarchism right now. Voluntary interaction! Huzzah.

>>12415160
Yeah, I get your point.
I mean, I read Orwell's book about the Spanish civil war and realized many things that apply in Armies and work behaviours that we take for granted are Anarchist patents.

But the same can be said for aaaany ideology.

Like blackjack.
20 you lose
21 spot on
22 you burn

>neoliberals
How is making a cooperative neoliberal?
I mean, it sorta was Stirners dream, no?

>>12414042
Good post

>>12415188

You said small businesses which make me automatically think of capitalism. If you did mean cooperatives then I apologise. They are not very neoliberal at all. Most people that say they lean politically left are neoliberals, though. It's very frustrating.

>>12415369
Most sensible anarchists I knew are either (or trying to be) toiling in some shitty job in the private sector, self-employed, in the public sector or tending some small family bizz or a cooperative.

>>12415468
Anecdotal I know, but here I am!

>>12415468

It is all that can be done.

#WeLiveInASociety

It's difficult to do anything else.

>>12415498
Fuck me it is.
Been unemployed for six months now for the first time now and I can hear the clock ticking...

>>12399051
imagine being so desperate you start appropriating the fucking amish lmao

>>12399762
haha they want feudalism and crafters guilds. lolololo larpers.

>>12400808
man you are on fire.

>>12414305
evil is just the disavowal of reality not the burdening of men. Oh brother get your moralfagging outta here.

why the FUCK is this thread still up

>>12418439
commie magic

>>12408562
Good lad.

has there been any study on the correlation between level of physical attraction and ever using the phrase 'late capitalism'?

>>12419138
I think Mark Fisher did a hauntology blogpost about it

>>12419536
was there a correlation? if so, was it positive or negative?

>>12400638
How is this relevant? Economy and job market were totally different in the 70s and 80s. College tuition was affordable.

>>12419583
yes

>>12419692
not funny

>>12398932
>>12411286
>Marx wanted a world with work and markets
You guys are very smart.

>>12415160
>Voluntary interaction
Ancaps aren't anarchists.

>>12419953
>with work
certainly

>>12399708
>the communist elite
t. mental retardation

>>12398849
Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher

>>12414305
>You just outlined exactly why modern capitalism is so dehumanizing and vile

It's like if it was my point, retard.

>>12419989
communist vanguard, however you want to call it that won't hurt your feelings

>>12420894
>implying wallstreet, media, oil industry, war industry, etc... aren't paying government officials millions to keep taxes down

I am so fucking sick of capitalism and the retards that defend it. Each time I see one sputtering out a pitiful defence of this shitty system I begin to think that Stalin had the right idea to send these creatures to gulags. I'm not even a tankie and know the USSR wasn't communist (it was state capitalism and don't meme "nevva ben tryd b4!!!") but attempting to educate them doesn't work so what do you do with dissidents who try to foil what you do?

>>12419695
Sorry.

Good:
24/7 by Jonathan Crary

Bad:
Capitalist Realism and other drivel by Mark Fisher

>>12422909
Ugly:
You're mum

>>12398849
OP's pic related isn't even boomer-core, it's more "greatest" gen.

>>12419981
Not waged labor, no. Hell, he even argued for automation, in a way:
>“Once adopted into the production process of capital, the means of labour passes through different metamorphoses, whose culmination is the… automatic system of machinery… set in motion by an automaton, a moving power that moves itself; this automaton consisting of numerous mechanical and intellectual organs, so that the workers themselves are cast merely as its conscious linkages.”

>>12420894
Vanguardism is very cringe but sadly very popular thanks to Lenin, etc.

>>12421083
>I begin to think that Stalin had the right idea to send these creatures to gulags
i bet you want to kill anyone that has any resemblance of wealth, as well

please go back to r/socialism you fuckwit

>>12398849
Why the fuck has this garbage thread not been moved to /pol/ or deleted yet? Are you freely allowed to shitpost as long as you preface your post with "what are some <board subject> about <shitpost>"?

>>12423589

By jove if only we would start doing that. Tell me why we shouldn't.

>>12423673
jealous little cretin

>>12421004
wtf are you talking about? how does capitalism corruption have anything to do with communism being a system where a small elite (revolutionary vanguard) socially engineers the masses?

>>12423396
well, say what you want about vanguardism, but at least vanguardism had a plan, a plan that failed horribly and ended up being a social engineering failed experiment

most other branches of communism rely on a magical moment when people for some reason start all thinking the same, but if everybody thinks the same and there are no social issues to be resolved, at that point the underlying system is pretty much irrelevant, because any system will work as long as everybody follows it, even monarchy if the king is a good king and the subjects are good subjects

>>12421004
>implying they don't want increased taxes for the masses while having some shitty loophole their companies can abuse
best way to keep competition down will always be a fuck ton of taxes on the small guys

>>12423832

I'm angry at the fact that they have so much excess yet others don't have necessities. They hoard their wealth whilst telling others to get their own but how can they?

The world would be a better place if capitalists and the cuckolds that admire them were shot and buried in a mass grave.

>>12424132
i agree with you regarding gigantic capitalists and their influence but hating, let's say, normal people who made some money with their small business is fucking retarded

>>12423391
>Not waged labor,
never said that

>>12424141

Why? 99% guarantee they did it on the exploitation of others. Just as bad.

Oh. Landlords should be shot too. Not entirely relevant but I am just saying.

>>12424549
>grandfather starts own painting and decorating firm
>asks colleague to join him and run it together with him
>he doesn't want to have to do any of the business side
>employs him instead
>I now descend from a ruthless class traitor
knowledge is suffering

I support the genocide of everyone who has a vested interest in economics.

I support the genocide of everyone

>>12424580
even the lolis

>>12424636
no half measures

anyone else larping as a commie or is it just me?

>>12424704
nope, im definitely larping as a commie too. in fact, im every single commie in this thread, including you

>>12424710
hi comrade

fuck sake i got a job with benefits

i HATE being exploited

>>12398849
>leadership demanding to be liked so the employee not only has to do work they find unpleasant but also put up a facade and do stupid ceremonial actions

>>12424776
woah

>>12399117
I think that if I have a good life, what differences does it make the other guy has a better one? If I have 3 healthy meals a day, a comfy bed and a fine roof over my head, why should I care the other guy can eat anything he wants, has a bed the size of a living room with the finest silk sheets, and lives in a castle? We should end MISERY and then POVERTY.

“Has it ever dawned on the editors that the attitudes of the 70 million projected non-voters may be very consistent with the reality that the concept of voting and electing representatives is basically dishonest and fraudulent. If voting could change anything it would be made illegal! There is no way any politicians can legally represent anyone because he was elected on a secret ballot by a small percentage of voters. He then claims to represent the people who voted against him and even those who wisely chose not to participate in such criminal activity.”
-“Voice of the People” column published in the Lowell Sun in September 1976 and written by Robert S. Borden