/lit/ - Literature

good question, i have to read that mother fucker again now that i learned new shit

I think this passage is one of the more direct on the theme of blackness:

>He had not meant to offend sensibilities, only to show others, decent fellows all, that their feelings about blackness were tied to feelings of shit, and feelings about shit to feelings about putrefaction and death. It seemed to him so clear . . . why wouldn't they listen? Why wouldn't they admit that their repressions had, in a sense that European in the last weary stages of it's perversion of magic, had incarnated real and living men...

>>12357185
Pynchon doesn't have a "point" per se, but he is inviting the reader to explore a reversal of the binary of white supremacy by suggesting that whites are inherently connected with order, the Elect, oppression and death while blacks are connected with the Other, the oppressed, the Preterite and regeneration... Maybe.

They aren't a point in themselves, they find themselves in various historical positions that make them great exponents of the actual theme which is the disenfranchised. Pynchon doesn't subscribe to a specific ideology but the influx of """"Marxists"""" in his day obviously impacted him greatly and the struggle between 'classes' (to Pychon it's the Preterite and the Elect) is worth exploring. Just don't forget that one of the biggest themes following the entirety of GR is that dichotomous systems (us vs them) are fucking stupid and inaccurate portrayals of reality (which is really just a confusing unsure mess of uncertainty).

>>12357262
>order
>death
>blacks
>regeneration
Good joke. I like Pynchon but he and Gaddis have absolutely no business galavanting around like bleeding heart anarcho-commies when they are the pinnacles of white old money and "privilege"

>>12357273
Your mistake is to think Pynchon is being political when in reality he is just a self-professed (read his intro to his short story collection) wannabe Beat who missed the train and instead is stuck in an engineering job at Boeing. The Beats were famous for venturing outside the Uni into the 'black' underworld of jazz, drugs, mysticism etc. vs. the monotonous 'white' world (for Pynchon) of advanced calculus. It's not really surprising that his fiction (i.e. fruition of his daydreaming) reflects that heavily.

>>12357332
Your mistake is shitting your pants about how your favorite meme author is beyond the plebeian descriptors of politics regarding the anarchist egalitarian themes that reverberate through his texts.

>>12357332
>>12357341

both of your mistake is to believe that anything "black" signifies something "left"

>>12357343
This is a terrible post. Are you illiterate?

I tried reading this recently and I couldn't make heads or tails of it. What is it? Is it a joke? It felt like I was reading a comedy but filtered through some weird lens that I can't really describe, to the point I didn't know if I was even supposed to laugh. It was just baffling nonsense.

>>12357356
Its fun

>>12357353
stay mad pea brain

pynchon wanted to do to herreros what spielberg did to the jewish in Schindler´s List

What did he mean by this?

>>12357341
Exploring ideas and professing a system are different. Your trying to brand people and politicize them so your buzzwords can """"land"""" and make you feel like you have something to contribute.

>>12357387
What did you mean by bringing this up in every Pinecone thread of late?
An anon sez why.

>>12357409
You are vapid and work very diligently to remain so. Reality is going to hit you like a rain of bricks.

>>12357419
Still a step above fortune cookie.

>>12357427
You are either admitting that you haven't read any other pynchon book and/or cannot parse themes, or you are affecting this smokescreen over his work as if its impenetrable religious tier subjectivity that cannot be talked about. I suspect it is the former but in the case of the latter there is no point in this thread even existing because *hits bong* tommy P is just to deep and playful to ever be understood man

>>12357446
What is with you and strawmen. This is exactly what I was trying to point out. Nobody is trying to push a system of anarcho-communism on to anybody; they exist in a time when that was a trendy ideology among elements of the college educated so it is an idea they explore in their fiction; it is one of many many threads found in their work; they are authors who pile on themes and information and weave them, romanticize them (often classified as encyclopedic novels by Bloom or whoever). They talk about countless things they have no business talking about (because it's fucking fiction, that's half the appeal), but you come flailing in latching on to the one thread that you see you can launch a buzzword at and trendily 'shame' them for. They can talk about anarcho-communism until the cows come home and it doesn't matter because it's just a framework for their art; it's no different than any other metaphoric/metonymical/representational vehicle of self-expression. Now if you can connect the romanticized idea with something outside their fiction you'd have a leg to stand on. If suddenly they start giving political lectures or talks, you go right ahead and apply all the critiques you want.

>>12357581
I never said they are pushing anything on anyone and I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your asshurt because you're just making stuff up to fuel your righteous fury. JR is a 700 page beautifully written equivalent of a one panel political cartoon making fun of Donald Trump at its core
>DUDE ITS LIKE AN 11 YEAR OLD IS IN CHARGE ALSO FUCK YOU DAD
You are clearly conceding ground now and raging about absolutely nothing because I dared pin down two obscurantist sacred cows of this board in any way.

>>12357600
Yikes.

>>12357611
The kind of logic you're trying to use in that trainwreck of a post I replied to is like saying LOTR isn't influenced by christianity because Tolkien said so

>>12357268
it's this.

>>12357600
>I like Pynchon but he and Gaddis have absolutely no business galavanting around like bleeding heart anarcho-commies when they are the pinnacles of white old money and "privilege"

1. They aren't gallivanting, their fiction is
2. Their fiction is just abstract self-expression / their fiction isn't a manifesto etc.
3. They have business abstractly self-expressing whatever they feel like independent of their position if they feel like it.

Now relate that to

>Pynchon isn't being political ....

i.e. He isn't on a podium, he is writing personal fiction.
If he finds anarcho-communism emotionally compelling, or he feels guilt, or he is trying to be trendy, etc.; they are all valid reasons to include it in your fiction (now see 1.).

>>12357695
he's clearly not very bright.
He thinks every big book should be like Lord of the Rings. What a knob.

>>12357695
Its shallow and pedantic ;^)

At least Gaddis displays some subtlety with the struggles of the actually racist teacher and the actual crimes by blacks against him but Pynchy sincerely in print loves the BBC and the only way to dispute this is pretending not to have read his books

>>12357701
I have never even read LOTR because I don't care. That is still the logic you are applying. Both authors' entire shtick is not saying a word about their work of course they never gave lectures on intersectionality and gravity's rainbow or whatever proof you would require to ever allow someone to mention anything about their writing. Why are you so defensive about this?

>>12357732
why are you so mad at Pynch and Gaddis?
Do you not realize how you come across as a psycho? i just got in this thread as an innocent bystander.
Just relax fag, they were both better than you, that's for sure.

>>12357712
You didn't even read the book.
He's basically saying black people are doomed.
fuck off, i dont even want to tell you that out of context, but that's clearly what your "redpill" retard brain desires to hear so

Jeez you'd think someone talking about the themes of GR so much would avoid having such black and white thinking.

>>12357732
>I have never even read LOTR because I don't care.

Wooooahhh, watch out guys!!! better not mess with this guy, he doesn't even CARE!

>>12357746
You are just still making assumptions based on nothing. Again why are you so defensive about this? Is there something inherently negative about anarcho-communism that we dare not speak its name? Or are you just fuming mad that maybe I dont have a high opinion of it? What if I'm a massive anarchy advocate and just think they are ivory tower liberals anon? I already said I like them. I made a small and accurate criticism. Any anger you are perceiving is directed squarely at you for your overreaction.

>>12357755
Yeah I know they will never make it to the moon and the black womans womb returned to the earth and all of that. He still comes across as a bleeding heart, particularly in the scenes with slothrops army nemesis. Also in V. Not everyone has to agree with you about everything you've read anon. You aren't some enlightened end all be all authority on how to feel about books.

>>12357732
People are calling you out for being an idiot because you said something idiotic. You essentially are claiming that someone shouldn't write fiction about something if they aren't in that class. Fucking fiction.

>>12357785
>again why are you so defensive about this?
should i tell him?

>>12357776
You have to go back

>>12357803
>>12357813
Yeah you're right guys these white Harvard drop out NEETs who's ancestors founded america are really down with the struggle lmao get over it nerds they write well they're still faggots and so are you limpwristed idiots. These responses are absolutely pathetic. How long have you retards even been on this shitty board spinning the same wheels about nothing? It looks exactly the same as it did in 2014 when I stopped coming to this shithole. I bet you whine about how it is "so much worse" than when you arrived 6 months ago right? Goodbye fags enjoy your circlejerk. Reminder everyone you look up to is white and so are you.

>>12357850
You're assuming a lot about how I feel about politics as it relates to artists for one.
two, please go back to /pol/ and die there.

>>12357850
Still resisting the actual conversation down to the last; at least you're consistent.

>>12357850
No amount of cool kid attitude will disguise the embarrassing fact that you're running away from an argument anon.
And calm down, Jesus. You've spent the entire thread accusing people of being angry and defensive and then pull this shit. You're not even necessarily wrong but you've done way more to hurt your idea than if you'd never said anything at all.
I sincerely hope you learn from this because when push came to shove you couldn't defend your own position without turning into a screaming child.

>>12357387
the bigger question is why does he replace every instance of the word says with "sez", is it literally just because of the acronym that spells out "SEZ WHO" ? why?

>>12357356
It's a meditation on the death drive. The very last line invites you into a God's eye view of human existence as a cycle of ultimately self-destructive acts. It is broadly comic, but it also takes its themes seriously.

>>12357862
Nu/pol/ is garbage but you are an unthinking parrot
>>12357873
>you're right
>you called me mad after I threw a fit and called you mad and admitted you were right but kept whining at you
Suck a dick you weasly little retard. You are both idiots and reading anything wasted on you.

>>12358901
You sound mad, is there something going on in your life? Don't be afraid to admit it.

>>12358930
Oh good heavens not on 4chan. Sorry about your shitty life anon. Its probably the lack of authenticity.

lol he came back

>>12358949
What are you going to do about it?

>>12357185
Is slothrop black?

>>12358983
No he is a loose self insert for pynchon as evidenced by the scene about his families storied history and money from timber farming.
t. guy who totally didnt read the book

>>12357387
echoes of joyce

>>12357850
im convinced this is a white woman

>>12360003
I'm convinced you've never had sexual intercourse.

>>12357850
>>12358901
Pretty based

>>12360016
i thought you were leaving, toots?

>>12360138
I am not currently flatulating at this time.

>>12360138
That isn't me, but I am back and ready to rock. I still dont see that controversy. Either two people or one guy twice have said I am right but are just tone policing me. I like both authors.

>>12360078
Yhit pipol good

>>12358930
It's clearly got something to do with class envy.
He is mad that rich people get to become artists, considers himself an intellectual, and he despises black people.
It's kinda pathetic, but he is to be pitied in the end.

>>12357695
this was a good post.

>>12357185
niggers are closer to the metaphysical plane and god than whites because whites subdivide and analize everything to literal death

>>12357185
Read Rimbaud.

>>12362031
That's dumb man, the first thing God does in Genesis is divide the world into categorization and then have the human taxonomise all the animals. Unless Pynchon has in mind some other nonabrahamic god

>>12358887
This is the best summary I've seen yet

>>12362080
there is no mention of it being an abrahamic god. basic categorization and overblown subdivision and analysis is not the same

>>12357273
>have absolutely no business galavanting around like bleeding heart anarcho-commies when they are the pinnacles of white old money and "privilege"

>>12362112
I'm only just starting Part III but he has spoken about Angels on a number of occasions which are exclusively Abrahamic entities.

>>12362152
>believing this
retard.

>>12362157
Why don't you correct me if I'm wrong instead of acting like a 12 year old

>>12362157
Some people are that stupid.

>Abrahamic god
Ahahahahahahahahaha woooooo

>>12362178
I mean, in a sense you are not wrong.
The name as we know it probably owes itself to Abrahamic religions, but the idea of spiritual beings interacting with our own is probably as dirt.
The sort of entities that Pynchon ends up TRULY meaning are more pagan than anything else.

>>12362187
old as dirt*

>>12362179
Pynchon uses a ton of different allusions to Christianity and Judaism. I don't see why it's so laughable.

>>12362187
The God and Angel conceptual structures predate Abrahamic religion by over 20,000 years. How the hell did you get onto this bullshit?

>>12362205
among many other things...

>>12362207
I mean that most people's clearest/closest cultural marker for the idea is almost definitely an Abrahamic one.

>>12362187
He says one angel is "miles beyond designating, rising over Lübeck that Palm Sunday with the poison-green domes underneath its feet."

Why cast even more abrahamic/christian overtones on to the concept of an Angel with the reference to Palm Sunday if it's just supposed to be some spiritual being?

>>12362207
>The God and Angel conceptual structures predate Abrahamic religion by over 20,000 years.
The Earth is only 6,000 years old, buddy.

>>12362217
Because later on in that chapter he uses the same term to describe the sun and the moon and the book is full of witch shit you mong.

>>12362224
No he doesn't.

>>12362254
He does.
Who do you think the two watchers at the world's edge are?
Actually angels? lol

>>12362262
He never calls them angels. You said he used the same term. He does not.

>>12362268
The implication is the same.
What is the angel doing at lubeck?
It's pagan shit, again.

>>12362278
It's not pagan. The angels are representations of the highest levels of "Them".

>>12362286
oh my god you're literally retarded.
It's all metaphor you fuckhhead.
Even them.

>>12362292
It has nothing to do with paganism or abrahamic religion.

>>12362300
You think it's the jews don't you?
It is and it isn't it's a metaphor, utlimately taking a sort of spiritual tone, thus my use of pagan.

>>12362311
No I don't think it's Jews. I think they represent whatever operation is on the other side of death.

>>12362346
How could that not be argued to just as easily be some sort pagan witch shit?

>>12362356
You can read it however you like. I see these beings at a level of power and emotional detachment that transcends humanity. Also the Pynchon writes explicitly that these angels make decisions.

>>12362362
I never said they didn't make decisions and I don't see how that supports your point about it not also having some reference to Paganism (and by proxy Abrahamic religion).

>>12362375
They could I suppose, but that's not why Pynchon wrote them into the book. It's entirely beside the point. They are written top down, not bottom up.

>>12362385
I agree with that.
But ultimately it's semantics, which you started a debate on.

>>12362390
I changed my position quite a lot during the course of the argument, my bad

>>12357695
As a disseminationist, I conclude Pynchon to be a product of his times and then move on to his continued representation by an industry using certain infrastructure to achieve the aims of a larger social-political-economic group. The publication of the book is more relevant to me than the content, except in how it reflects the dissemination. Which is why Pynch is The Man in your head, and he must be destroyed. Fireboom incoming daddikins! Errrr. Er. *Boom- boom.* Ut-oh...teehehe. Waaaa! Waaaa! Teehe.
---
Postmodernism as an addition to modernism by way of scepticism of grand narratives.
Ahistocial in evaluation, directing history to the present problems: 73! yafucks! 45 to 73! Read a history book! God damned american idiots. What is the relation between Jews and Blacks and Puritans if you were to say, look out your window in the sixties and see them all together? Now if you were evil, or special, or Canadian, how would you keep them mad at each other for personal profit? Teehe....
Lacan is Dr. Strangelove is definitely not Mr. Hollywood, but instead a geek with a Ron Jeremy snarl and hankering for totalizing in a all but too American fashion that is purely antagonistic without empathy beyond itself, yet able to subsume all in its fascist attempt to level art and tickle you to death like The Nasizs do.
"The Image in the Age of Pseudo-Reality
Daniel Boorstin’s [[[1962]]] classic on celebrity, fame, and America’s tenuous relationship to facts remains as poignant as it is prophetic."
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/12/the-image-in-the-age-of-pseudo-reality/509135/

>>12362311
>>12362292
THEY are The System, the Cartel, the Raketen-stadt, the dealers in Death and Clock-time, they are the Masonic impulse, they are hierarchy, they are the Archons, who fight to keep you in this dream because they know you are no good to them if you somehow Wake Up. THEY are those who find dialectical opposite but no equal. THEY are those who hold the reigns now. THEY are the ones in control. And only the infinite can dethrone them now.

>There is a Hand to turn the time,
>Though thy Glass today be run,
>Till the Light hath brought the Towers low
>Find the last poor Preterite one . . .
>Till the Riders sleep by ev'ry road,
>All through our crippl'd Zone,
>With a face in ev'ry Mountainside
>And a Soul in ev'ry stone

>Now Everybody -

>>12362439
sure, yeah that too. I don't disagree. The trouble is recognizing them when you see them.