/lit/ - Literature

>>12318103
>pls make examples

Sorry, you have to kind of in the mood to be able to do it. Spur of the moment kind of thing.

>>12318103
Layered irony? Yikes, that's a hard pass from me!

>>12318103
metamodernism

>>12318103
scary movie 2

bronies

>>12318103
You taking that ironic comic at face value adds another layer of irony to your post, which makes my initial statement just another layer of this exchange

/pol/

>>12318103
Being ironic ironically, being ironic ironically ironically, being ironic ironically ironically ironically, ad infinitum

>>12318145
>Truth itself is the highest level of irony

>>12318183
That's a rephrasing, not an example; but thanks!

Hitler did nothing wrong!

This is a statement that is often said ironically in reddit or youtube, but because at this point it is so banal, I am saying it ironically, which means that there are two layers irony at work, ie. I am making fun of them by stating this ironical statement ironically

>>12318103
“this but unironically”
Note that the ironic term is implicit in the very presence of “unironically”

>>12318103
JOI's movie posters for 'The Joke' which say "You Are Strongly Advised NOT To Shell Out Money to See This Film" which the critics see as an "ironic anti-ad joke" but ironically turn out to be a genuine warning for the quality of the film. The third layer of irony is that the only horrible aspect of this film is that the audience are presented with images of themselves (or of audience culture) which makes them disgusted, and therefore there is nothing inherently bad about the film, it is instead the problem of the audience's predisposition to hate themselves. The skeptical reader will realise a fourth layer of irony: this interpreted depth as a commentary on spectator society is in fact not there at all, and the concept of 'The Joke' is a dumb cliché. That is then complicated by the idea that the movie is a "self-consciously dumb stasis", as in JOI knew that this conception of something this bad was a cliché but did it anyway, as a kind of ironic commentary on itself. The sixth layer of irony is the fact that the movie itself (presenting the audience with a mirror of themselves) is a commentary on self-consciousness, and that is itself so thematically interesting that the movie is sort of brilliant. Then we loop back in the 7th layer as we consider that that the movie's "ironic anti-ad joke" may actually be an ironic joke for one of the best movies ever made. And so on and so forth. There are really infinite layers of irony that JOI is trapped in, each one less distinguishable from the last.

A lot of the things stemming from internet culture have multi-layered irony. Like how some use the term "waifu" to ironically refer to a fictional character that they actually unironically like. It definitely is representative of the new sincerity movement.

It is only possible through immanent self referentiality that is a major element of the field of art throughout its history (the first work that comes to mind is Don Quixote), and one that is most visible in art in modernity (and ofc postmodernity). Therefore, it is possible if it happens in an immanent field of production which feeds on itself and its perpetuation, as it is with memes

the censorship of the album title 'Scum Fuck Flower Boy', more commonly aka'd 'Flower Boy', by Tyler Okonma:

on this record, Tyler comes out as a gay, albeit with a layer of ironic detachment re: flower motifs as they relate to stereotypical flamboyant homosexuality. Fans and music sites lap up this on-the-nose irony as being progressive, brave, witty etc. This is layer 1

simultaneously, 'Scum Fuck' is almost never mentioned as part of the album's title. the album is Grammy nominated, singles are performed on liberal late night talk shows, and the songs are regularly played on the radio, all while the title is just 'Flower Boy'. These groups have been forced to recognise the album because it manages to be overtly progressive while also being irreverent/ironic enough to be considered cool by white girls. Plus, the songs are pretty good. They (the media) operate exclusively on layer 1 of the irony

A huge disconnect is exposed in the fan-base (lots of white girls) and the mainstream media (lots of Jimmys). Everyone feels required to praise the album as progressive and open-minded. They want to virtue signal as being accepting of Tyler's sexuality. However, perhaps unconsciously, they fail to acknowledge the other aspect of Tyler's identity: the (stereotypically black) violence his music was always known for before: the 'Scum Fuck' aspect. Tyler, the most homophobic and misogynistic artist in mainstream music, literally still personally banned from the UK by T. May for hate speech, is now lauded as an icon of progressivisim. This is layer 2 and, if you compare his previous album's lyrics, it's pretty clearly intentional.

The hypocrisy of the reaction to the album is so deep it even extends to the media establishment itself being legally incapable of saying the full album title, as that would constitute swearing on TV/radio. The album's praisers think that accepting Tyler's sexuality is enough to make them open-minded, but at the same time are unable to acknowledge that Tyler also sang, protected by artistic licence, about raping women, and said 'faggot' a lot

if you don't think Tyler is a master of multi-layered irony, look at the shoes he's tricking grown white men into wearing, or how the lyrics to Garbage get literal white girls to sing 'What's in my trunk? White girl'

>>12318223
baste

Dabbing.
It caught on as an ironic thing to do after Jake Paul.
But because boomers got pissed off at it by not getting the joke, people now do ironic dabs ironically, since the original intended meaning was to be derisive to the very act itself.
Sometimes a fourth layer of irony is presented. Like when someone writes
*dabs* to be insincerely derisive to people caught on all these ironical layers.

>>12318203
>Hitler did nothing wrong is somehow ironic
Oh no no no no no

>>12318116

How? I'm not sure how metamodernism uses irony differently than postmoderism. It just oscillates back to sincerity when not being ironic.

>>12318108
if i dance half-naked to full-volume saint pepsi cherry pepsi while rotating my pp like im some sort of vertical helicopter and singing to we will rock you lines of françois villon with tex typesetting commands added as if they were part of the poems am i being ironic enough

I sometimes call something ironic despite it meeting expectations as a jab at those who people, ironically, use the word for its opposite meaning. Pretty ironic, right?

I sometimes call something ironic despite it meeting expectations as a jab at those people who, ironically, use the word for its opposite meaning. Pretty ironic, right?

>>12318653
Irony being expected is itself ironic isn't it

>>12318290
like abilene paradox or long running tv shows where a bunch of people persuade each other into doing something nobody wants to

>>12318103
Semi-ironic neo-fascism.

>>12318103
post-irony is when you're saying something in an ironic manner, but actually seriously mean it deep down
it's very popular with online extreme political ideologies nowadays, especially communists, since it provides an easy way to shield yourself from criticism

basically:
>0 layers
sincerity
>1 layer
irony
>2 layers
post-irony
>anything past this
near-incoherent deep-fried meta-irony

>>12319013
>>12319024
What's the difference between semi-ironic and post-ironic? Is something being semi-ironic just realizing it was kind of silly at conception?

>>12319071
This nomenclature is itself ironic. The distinction is ironic. This discussion is ironic. None of these posts is sincere. I'm posting contrasting opinions from five different computers. Life is a joke. Nothing is for real.

>>12319192
Chill out Yuji Sakai.

>>12318266
I don't think it is a concept native to internet culture. What about painters secretly despising the persons they are portraying and demeaning them by showing them exactly the way they are?

>>12318103
An average bait post on 4chan has up to five or six layers of irony converging in a meta-structure with a web of rethorical correlations. These posts are thought and typed out in seconds.

>>12319256
based AND redpilled

>>12318238
>>12318303
These were useful examples. Thanks. I'm saying this with at least twelve different layers of sincerity.

>>12319310
Holy fuck

>>12318203
Jokes on you since youre making yourself a vector of neonazi propaganda

What about sincerely mistaking sincerety as a joke

>>12319024
Is new sincerity related to post-irony?

Rain on wedding day. The rain is a layer above wedding day as indicated by "on." This is an example of layered irony, like onions, layered.

hehe easy on the chungus anon

Where does Neo Yokio fall in the spectrum of meta-textual post-ironic cultural self-deprecation?

>>12319437
They are pretty much the same. I think the former expresses a desire of ending a sequence of lying about lying about lying so intricated you lose grasp of your own personality, whereas the latter is plainly when you end up enjoying something you made fun of.
I can understand new sincerety, but I still can't stand those people who find good in each and every thing because I'm irrationally persuaded they are all dumb automata who might as well be already dead. Joke's on me. Boo hoo.

>>12319533
badly experimented ironic weebdom for ironic weebs.

>>12319533
I don't understand your anime reference because I have never heard of this yokio thing before, so I would say 9/10—by which I mean nine tenths, as in nine tenths out of ten, which is indeed a crappy score, but not as crappy as an infinite amount of other yet closer to zero scores: you are thus allowed to reach for the closest most sugar-packed foodstuff in your immediate vicinity and eat it in front of a mirror in a spree of self-satisfaction.

>>12319586
That's two "ironic" in one sentence, which I think is at least post-ironic, or maybe just a doubly negative ironic irony.

>>12319617
I'm going to steal parts of this at some future time. Thanks.

It's Western anime through the eyes of Jaden Smith. You should check out this video if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8XAI9FJai8

>>12319403
>>12318103
The best is when people figure out you're not taking either side, but are attempting to insult everyone involved in the fucking spectacle of verbiage you can't destroy. If you can't beat them, wrap yourself in bombs and join them. Even go so far as invigorating them, pushing their material to the brink. Slowmo self-destruction that is meant to take out as many worthless pieces of rhetoric as possible with whatever shrapnel you can stuff inside your invective. Improvise and destroy. That's my motto. But then again, we don't write poetry at the FBI, and I shouldn't be tell you little shits anything. Oh well, who will believe I'm really with the FBI.

Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.

But its 13:45 on a 24h clock.
But the clock is hidden. But you can't read. But the clock is in a dream. But you're late. But you just got another job offer but you dont want it but youre moving for a girl but you're gay but youll meet the love of your life a woman who you love for her manliness which is a mere personal interpretation of her non-gender specific actions which arent gendered in language because they involve verbs but in your language nouns are gendered. But in this case it doesnt matter because its literature. However, though the scenario is a fiction, it is granted a less arguable veracity due to the relative primacy of the text. Which is ironic due to the text being partly unclear or ironic but regardless referencable in a quasi-fixed sense. But right now its a draft so it might be up in the air.

>>12319442

Is that ironic or appropriate pathetic fallacy?
Recall: 50 percent of rainy days end in a wedding.

>>12319681
I want to eat jello out of your belly button. I hate jello.

>>12318103
The lady. Such a chaotic amass of dumb clichés, bad acting, aphorisms that sound deep but are actually meaningless, you would think it's all an elaborate joke; but given what silly dorks the author and the actors themselves are, you inevitably end up appreciating as one of the purest most sincere and most genuine forms of expression.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwjOzY-m_srfAhULz4UKHZeQB-MQxa8BCCowAg&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
(I think there's English subs available)

>>12319024
Let me expand on that:

>0 layers
Saying something and meaning it.
>1 layers
Saying something you don't actually believe and being obvious enough about it that most others can tell. Also known as sarcasm.
>2 layers
Saying something that makes it sound like you don't actually believe what you're saying, while (secretly) actually believing it; your true intentions only being somewhat clear to those who share your beliefs and have experience operating on this level of irony.
E.g. trying to pass off something as a joke while sincerely meaning it.
>3 layers
Saying something you don't actually believe to such a degree where nobody can really tell whether you are being sincere or not, your motivations only being known to yourself. Like someone who acts like a total caricature but at the same time appears like he's completely serious. Primarily done to mock others
E.g. Sam Hyde, and those LAYERS OF IRONY comics
>4 layers
Saying something with zero intrinsic meaning which nobody, not even yourself, can grasp the meaning or even the intent of anymore. Irony at this level is primarily used as a defense mechanism to obfuscate a truth that concerns you. After all, you're only being ironic. It doesn't really apply to you if you didn't actually mean it. Nothing does. In other words: running away.
>5 layers
Saying something that appears like you don't actually believe it, and something you think you don't believe it, but secretly actually do believe it, as a result of unresolved conflicting inner beliefs.You're telling yourself that you don't like this thing, that you're only approaching it from a detached point of view, but at the same time your relation to it can't be described by outsiders as anything but clearly OBSESSED. In other words: lying to yourself.
>6 layers
At this point you no longer really know why you say the things you say, or whether what you say actually means something. You hear new ideas and memes, and subconsciously find yourself repeating them, to the point where it has become second nature. You know you used to do everything out of irony, but now, now you don't even think about it. When called out on it you will say you're being ironic, without really knowing what exactly makes it ironic. However, you do know that everyone in your community is doing the same thing, so you merely do as everyone does. Also known as: the destruction of the self.
>7 layers
???????
>...
>irony singularity
>-1 layers
Saying something you sincerely mean with the full knowledge that everyone else around you will think you're joking, the sheer sincerity of it making the rest cringe in disgust and hidden fear, for after years of cocooning themselves in the web of irony they can no longer imagine what it is like to sincerely say what you believe.

>>12319944
I believe your ironic singularity requires further definition.

The reason we can't have infinite irony is because, as the ironic onion layers approach infinity, the odds of creating an ironic singularity approach 1. This happens once the sheer mass of ironic intent collapses upon its own gravitational field. (It's said David Foster Wallace was born of cosmic interference à la butterflies* as a result of the implosion of an ironic star in a galaxy far, far away.)

Once the ironic singularity is formed, the rate of irony produced by it is constantly oscillating between positive infinity and negative infinity. Some scholars refer to phenomenon this as Schrödinger's Irony.

*see also: https://xkcd.com/378/

>>12319681

>>12320038
>infinite irony
That would be truth. Not just sincerity. Actual truth.

>>12319944
This is so ministry of truth LOL.

>>12321100
> Actual truth.
How do you figure, anon?

>>12320084
>Paglia sees the mother as an overwhelming force who condemns men to lifelong sexual anxiety, from which they fleetingly escape through rationalism and physical achievement.
Woa. This looks like a blast.

>>12321123
>How do you figure
Math + spiritual insight + sugar inflation
Seriously though, seeing the same situation under all possible points of view is the closest human understanding can come to truth. Unfortunately, humans are finite beings. Besides, no human would be able to withstand more than five layers of irony without irreversibly falling into a spiral of paranoia and self-delusion.

>>12321185
Sounds like a decent premise for a short story.

>>12318103
Using irony or attempting to come off as ironic while doing so in order to express your actual held belief in whatever your are "ironically" claiming.

>>12319644
some heroes ;_;7

>>12321144

Nice dubs.
Thats because she's Italian and is hella jappy on the intellectual and literary level.

We all know that the mother only stimulates annoyance in the child by cucking you to your face with the housepets at social functions.

Pretend sarcasm

>>12321817
How much of a waste of time is that book? She looks like freud but with a p*ssy.