/lit/ - Literature

>>12301355
marx

>>12301355
It's basically the society we live in now.

Adam Smith

>>12301355
Probably Marx.

>>12301367
In all seriousness isn't Hume unrefuted in modern philosophy?

>>12301355
Marx obviously

>>12301362
>>12301377
>>12301383
Nope, China is doing fine.

>>12301378
Don't know about modern philosophy but Kant btfo'd him

Nietzsche or Evola

>>12301378
Being the guy who says "You can't prove/do X" to a bunch of shit has staying power.

Maybe Ibn Taymiyyah, the intellectual forerunner of Islamic extremists

>>12301402
neet she.

>>12301395
>china
>upholding marxism
lmao

>>12301355
nizchte (did i write it correctly)

>>12301372
The prosperity of a nation is highly correlated with how free its markets are. Name ONE problem with capitalism.

>>12301429
Erosion of local cultures, homogenization of the world, destruction of environment

However Adam Smith isn’t much of a capitalism fervent believer.

A better example would be Bastiat

>>12301355
Evola

>>12301355
Everyone except Max Stirner

>>12301482
How's your milk business going?

>>12301395
China is a free market economy you ignorant fuck

>>12301485
Pain is a spook

>>12301482
based and egopilled

>>12301378
his analysis of miracles is flat out incorrect.

>>12301480
>>12301402
>Evola

That world would be glorious, retards.

>>12301355
Bentham.
Nietzsche would be a close second.

>>12301417
>the intellectual forerunner of Islamic extremists
except that he is not. At least read his Wikipedia page before you post

>>12301588
Why Bentham? Everyone always babbles about how utilitarians are fags and how hurr muh morality isn't about utility, yet everyone always acts according to utilitarian principles. Pathetic.

Unironically Marxism. It turns you into an angry bitter person who lives in constant anger about things they have no control over.

>>12301607
>yet everyone always acts according to utilitarian principles
If you are a swine, maybe.

>>12301395
China is in reality more Mussolini than Marx.

>>12301607
>yet everyone always acts according to utilitarian principles
Most people eat animals and would rather have a new smartphone that they don't need yet than save a bunch of third world children with that money.

>>12301395
>China
>Marxist

>>12301402
>>12301588
What the hell would a Nietzschean society even look like? I know what a person would look like, but a society? Thats up to you.

>>12301402
>>12301480
Maybe if you're a weak-willed scumbag, I can understand why the prospect of structure would be unappealing

kant. everyone is an end in himself, no lying, no jacking off, execute anyone who isnt a homo autist

>>12301619
"Now, such a theory of life excites in many minds, and among them in some of the most estimable in feeling and purpose, inveterate dislike. To suppose that life has (as they express it) no higher end than pleasure- no better and nobler object of desire and pursuit- they designate as utterly mean and grovelling; as a doctrine worthy only of swine, to whom the followers of Epicurus were, at a very early period, contemptuously likened; and modern holders of the doctrine are occasionally made the subject of equally polite comparisons by its German, French, and English assailants.

When thus attacked, the Epicureans have always answered, that it is not they, but their accusers, who represent human nature in a degrading light; since the accusation supposes human beings to be capable of no pleasures except those of which swine are capable. If this supposition were true, the charge could not be gainsaid, but would then be no longer an imputation; for if the sources of pleasure were precisely the same to human beings and to swine, the rule of life which is good enough for the one would be good enough for the other. The comparison of the Epicurean life to that of beasts is felt as degrading, precisely because a beast's pleasures do not satisfy a human being's conceptions of happiness. Human beings have faculties more elevated than the animal appetites, and when once made conscious of them, do not regard anything as happiness which does not include their gratification. I do not, indeed, consider the Epicureans to have been by any means faultless in drawing out their scheme of consequences from the utilitarian principle. To do this in any sufficient manner, many Stoic, as well as Christian elements require to be included. But there is no known Epicurean theory of life which does not assign to the pleasures of the intellect, of the feelings and imagination, and of the moral sentiments, a much higher value as pleasures than to those of mere sensation."
- John Stuart Mill, Utilitarianism

>>12301355
Every one of them who opposed technocracy

>>12301648
>What the hell would a Nietzschean society even look like?
traditional aristocracy but instead of warriors it's frail bookish nerds at the top

basically catholic theocracy ironically enough

>>12301673
Why would it not be warriors? The Dionysian spirit would not support a maladjusted dork being in a position of authority.

Also, your comparison to catholic theocracy confirms that you don't know what you're talking about.

>>12301695
Thinking a Nietzschean society has to be in accordance with concepts from a work of dramatic theory he wrote he was still a Schopenhauerian child from well before his philosophical vision came into being confirms that you don't know what you're talking about, lad.

>>12301668
Bentham was not an Epicurean and didn't make a difference between higher and lower pleasures.

>>12301735
Clarkson was right, she really does look like a boiled horse.

>>12301673
It would be a traditional aristocracy with bookish warriors at the top

>>12301784
nietzsche would probably have been a massive weeb today

>>12301641
Because most people are wasted human flesh

>>12301429
>Name ONE problem with capitalism.
atomization is probably the largest and most pertinent problem to the human subject today

>>12301355
We know from example that Milton Friedman and Hayek produced the worst societies.

>>12301355
martin luther
john calvin

all the enlightenment cunts

>>12301866
How's Chile doing?

>>12301898
Still a latin american country.

>>12301928
Also the best performing one with an average life satisfaction rating higher than the U.S.

>>12301939
Coincidence spics are majority in yankland.

>>12301362
Fpbp

>>12301991
OP was the first post tho

Thomas Hobbes>>>[POWERGAP]>the rest
This cunt is the father of totalitarianism.

>unadulterated evil tier
Thomas Hobbes
>perpetual envy tier
Karl Marx
>can't even get off the ground tier
Max Stirner

>>12301998
Harhar, pretending to be a newfag. Hilarious.

>>12301898
The Chicago school economics ruined the country so bad that in 1982 even. Pinochet, who was endlessly patient with capitalism, kicked out the Chicago boys and installed state socialism to fix the economy

>>12301355
Plato, Marx, Hegel, Positivist

>>12302139
It wasn't the fault of the free market policies of the chicago school, but the fault of a latin american crisis and the overvalue of the peso chileno which was sustained by the us dollar and international debt, same thing happened at the end of the 90s in argentina when the value of their currency was sustained by international debt.
And pinochet never applied state socialism, only the bailment of banks and price controls, the liberalization of the economy continued only in a more relaxed tone

It can be say that the economic shock policies of the chicago school were at least radical and generated chaos for a few year when they were implemented, but they made Chile one the best countries in latin america in terms of quality of living and economy, and that can be show in the miraculous decrease in poverty and a 10% economic growth over the last decade

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_American_debt_crisis

>https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.NAHC?end=2017&locations=CL&start=1987&view=chart

>>12301429
Externalities

>>12301875
This. The Puritan society was the next level of totalitarian shithole

>>12302393
false if you knew even an iota of Puritan history besides >muh witch trails

>>12301673
What? Nietzsche hated frail nerds, he loved warriors, he hated priests

>>12302379
>nah it wasn’t the free market, which can never be wrong, it was something completely different that had nothing to do with the free market that fuck the country up
>actually socialism didn’t save Chile, it was actually more moderated free market, which is still free market, which is why the free market is always right

>>12302444
This but without a hint of sarcasm.

>>12302444
>>nah it wasn’t the free market, which can never be wrong, it was something completely different that had nothing to do with the free market that fuck the country up

But it was the latin american crisis, that is a well established fact, ffs i give you a fucking link where you can read about that

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_American_debt_crisis


>>actually socialism didn’t save Chile, it was actually more moderated free market, which is still free market, which is why the free market is always right

Can you give me an example of the supposed
state socialism of pinochet?

>>12302456
BASED

>>12301429
markets aren't inherently capitalist

Maoist-Third-Worldism

>>12302401
I was raised on a Calvinist religious commune which was inspired by John Calvin and John Bunyan. The closet modern equivalent to the Puritan colonies. It was stifling in the 20th century, there's no way it was better during the 1600s when they had even more control over people and we're further isolated

>>12302386
Situations where a third, uninvolved party is harmed in market transaction makes government involvement justified.
Idk if it destroys capitalism per se though. I wouldn't consider outlawing murdering people to harvest their organs to be against capitalism.

>>12301378
All Hume does is essentially retort with "nya nya, can't prove anything, lmao". Not sure if that really counts as a system, it's basically just rhetoric.

>>12302444
Kill yourself

>>12301428
It's NEETzche you pleb.

>>12301460
>destruction of environment
This is the main reason why I've turned against capitalism. It's a dumb beast that keeps on feeding and hunting until it either bursts its stomach or consumes everything that is to be consumed and is only left with the prospect of starvation.
Capitalism should have been a means to an end, rather than an end to itself.

>>12301953
>implying all spics are Mexican

>>12302554
We're already developing carbon catching tech that runs on solar energy alone. We got this.

>>12302562
We.

>>12301355
>>12301367
fuck that, if people truly followed their hearts instead of trying to live up to societal expectations, the world would be a much more pleasant place.
but we as a species are too steeped in the comforts of our illusions for this to ever happen.
>>12301482
mahnigga.gif

Julius Evola, Giovanni Gentile, etc.

>>12302589
cringe and bluepilled

>>12302580
Man, I so hope so. I want to remain optimistic, but I fear we might be too late. I am not one of those people who think that we will destroy the planet with nothing short of a nuclear holocaust, as Earth has had it way worse than with us, but it will be truly lamentable if we lose the beauty we know now.
In my personal opinion, we will reach a point in which life as we know it won't ever be sustainable; natural disaster and international conflicts will lead to millions, maybe billions dying, and the remaining humans will live out their lives in harsher conditions than we have now, but not the worst humankind has ever experienced.

>>12302608
>natural disaster and international conflicts will lead to millions, maybe billions dying
sounds good to me

>>12301429
As long as we're clear Laissez faire Capitalism is what wet talking about, nothing.

>>12301395
come on this is bait

>>12302620
I too believe that it's natural, but I'd prefer to avoid it out of a sense of self preservation.

>>12302461
The debt was caused by the market being unregulated

Pinochet bailed out banks and ended up controlling even more of the economy than under Allende. The biggest industry, the copper company remained in public hands

>>12302456
This is the equivalent of saying IT WASNT REAL COMMUNISM

>>12302505
Capitalism is capitalism except when it’s bad.

Then it is Crony capitalism because real capitalism can’t be bad

what you guys think of Rand?

>>12302620
Millions dying by definition is a bad result

>>12302666
not when one considers the worse outcome of depleted resources and quality of life as a result of overpopulation in the first world

>>12302663
Mixed bag. The whole thing about selfishness is kind of retarded and seems like a quick path to unhappiness, but her emphasis on self-reliance is good. The extreme libertarian types on the internet tend to be idiots, but all the Rand fans I've met IRL have been more interested in the self-reliance aspect, which seems good.

>>12302663
Concur. There is literally nothing wrong with the separation of state and economics.
>anarchism is a pseudo-opposite to statism
>centrism is a giant middle ground fallacy
>the contextuality of concepts is king
All things I concluded MIGHT be true but were then confirmed by Rand adding clarifications and elucidation of variables I hadn't considered.

>>12302655
You're making it sound like a country is only capitalist if it's anarcho-capitalist.
No shit there's bad forms of capitalism. My point is that just as we don't consider it socialism to outlaw people from murdering others to harvest organs, it's reasonable to have standards like "don't dump radioactive waste in the river" and not be considered socialist.

>>12301784
Sounds nice

>>12302745
Yeah, I’m fine with a highly regulated capitalist economy. It’s the best way to go.

>>12301673
>>12301784
>bookish
Nietzsche said the greatest gift he got was failing eye sight because it allowed him to stop "book worm behavior", He hated bookish worms. He said in Ecce Homo that he hadn't read a book in 6 months, in order to keep "clean" for his own writing. He also said you should always be active and that "never trust a idea you didn't earn by walking." and that you should think in open spaces and in fresh air. Sedentary bookworm neets think he is on their side LOL.

>>12301429
Monopolies of power.

>>12302810
>be philology nerd
>go blind
>haha it's not like i wanted to study texts or something they're probably dumb anyway

COPE

>>12301429
Globalism and the destruction of the environment. At least in terms of very free market capitalism.

>>12302825
The worst, and majority of them, are government backed. But in the rare cases they form organically, they form because they've reached to such a size as to make economies of scale a significant barrier to compete.
But what that means in that case is that the monopoly produces products at the best quality and lowest cost compared to what small firms can.
So long as smaller firms exist in the market, they put a check on the monopoly to not take too much advantage of their leverage, because if they price gouge too much, the smaller firms can step in.

>>12302873
>But in the rare cases they form organically,


It’s not a rare case

they form because they've reached to such a size as to make economies of scale a significant barrier to compete.
>But what that means in that case is that the monopoly produces products at the best quality and lowest cost compared to what small firms can.

Not necessarily, they can engage in dumping


>So long as smaller firms exist in the market, they put a check on the monopoly to not take too much advantage of their leverage, because if they price gouge too much, the smaller firms can step in.


Again, they can destroy small firms by dumping

>>12302587
>if people truly followed their hearts instead of trying to live up to societal expectations, the world would be a much more pleasant place.
>but we as a species are too steeped in the comforts of our illusions for this to ever happen.

This sounds nice until it turns out that "following his heart" for even just one man is being a serial killer or something. Not everyone is kind or good at heart. What happens when your happiness and someone else's happiness is completely at odds?

>>12302663
She wrote bad genre fiction.

>>12302580
>he thinks a stork delivers rare metals and solar panels to GE factories

>>12301429
>economic selfishness determinism is SO FUCKING BASED
You need to go back.

>>12303355
>Inequality exists in literally every single natural and unnatural aspect of life and the world
>I know - let's literally force "economic equality" - surely nothing will go wrong.

>>12302810
Nietzsche owned over 2000 books. He was just memeing when he said that he didn't read very much, making fun of the type of German scholar that read from morning till night without seriously reflecting on what he read. Schopenhauer did this too. But that doesn't mean that Schoppy and Neeshee weren't lovers of literature.

>>12302521
if you can't prove anything, then there is no system. your rejection of hume as a rhetoric device because you can't refute the fact that casuality is not casual.

>>12301355
nietzsche would create the most dystopian society where it would be the worst to live in
marx for least functional society

>>12303365
>wow you don't support dumbfuck determinism
>guess you must be a post-modernist neo-marxist

>>12303340
meh, its ok. chinks are mining these african conflict minerals for us capitalists to redundantly recapture the emitted carbons. thanks based communism!

>>12301673
>basically catholic theocracy ironically enough
you dont know shit about catholicism my man
this made me cringe so hard

>>12303381
He stopped reading as much after health problems and then stopped reading even more after he left the University of Basel. He pretty much wrote for a decade after leaving the University.

>>12303400
catholicism is the sneaky betas having found a way to trick chads into obeying them

read genealogy of morals

>>12303355
>please protect me daddy goberment!

>>12303431
catholicism is the opposite of nietzsche
nieche is for the domination of the strongest by rejection of morals which prevent them from that
catholicism for the weakest and rejection of material

they are LITERAL polar opposites

>>12303437
>>please protect me daddy goberment!
>trusts government data

>>12303437
fuck i hate you
the shallowest possible brand of materialism

>>12303445
I don't hold it to the same level of esteem as you. I believe the government has just as much self interest as a corporation. But considering you likely hold government data in higher esteem than me, what makes you hesitant over accepting the conclusions given by them?

>>12303463
JUST
Go back.

>>12303439
nietzsche himself was a sneaky beta professor who wanted and expected people to swear oaths using his name and a new calendar era to be marked by his work.

the catholics are better meme designers than him though, they are the strongest in the battle of ideas.

>>12303437
The only one of these that actually matters is life satisfaction, and even then the chart doesnt specify what that accounts for.

>>12303463
you bringing corporations to discussion here shows me how much of a capitalist NPC snowflake you are

>>12303475
just dont compare them so easily
their philosophies were completely different and contradictory

If Nietzsche created society, would we be Ubermenschen by now?

>>12303437
>pic shows big government welfare states that protect their citizens BTFO everyone

>>12303498
maybe, but more realistically we would be the slave cattle to the small minority of ubermensch
so be thankful its the catholics who designed society

>>12303487
good image but shit post

>>12303507
i meant about the government-corporations comparison which is the usual stereotypical pseudo-rightist pre-programmed response you expect from someone blindly repeating others opinions

>>12303494
the people were not though. nietzsche has all the qualities of the priestly caste he despises and considered himself one of the greatest men to ever live and to be worthy of veneration.

>>12302489
Story time, anon. What went down?

>>12303524
well he is quite insane and self-unaware ill grant you that

>>12303474
So why don't you trust government data?
>>12303483
Life satisfaction is measured subjectively. Has correlates with factors you'd expect like gdp per capita. Also no, income inequality and productivity are important.
>>12303501
Also typically have corporate taxes a third the size of the U.S.'s

>>12303548
They also happen to be white or East Asian. Makes you think.

>>12303525
Bunch of lutherans thought that their Church was corrupted by liberalism, three pastors broke off and started their own church. Kicked out anyone who didn't think they were the god assigned seats of the congregation. They thought the end of the world was months away, so they sold all worldly possessions and lived in isolation in rural Minnesota. The world didn't end and people started having families. I'm third generation but don't really believe in it anymore, still don't feel at home in the church or secular society so I'm pretty neurotic and unadjusted, which is why I visit this Okinawan bicycling forum

>>12303902
>They thought the end of the world was months away, so they sold all worldly possessions and lived in isolation in rural Minnesota
i hate protestants but in all honesty it seems a fairly christian thing to do

>>12301576
We'd be performing ancient Germanic rites on Mars

>>12303902
sounds comfy

>>12303916
ikr
i became a trad catholic to try to cope with not being able to have such a life

>>12303913
>>12303916
It's honestly not that bad, just don't ever talk about philosophy or the humanities or you'll get a very negative reaction. It's very stifling intellectually, but economically it's basically unmatched. It's a functioning socialist system (which makes sense because there are about 500 members and we all know each other so there is little chance for corruption) although it isn't Marxist in any sense. I guess that I'm unduly biased against it because I have OCD and it was left untreated besides exorcisms for a long time.

>>12303940
ocd is made up bullshit and they did a good thing

>>12303913
It started out as Lutheran, but the theology has evolved of fifty years to be much more conservative Presbyterian than anything else, very much Calvinist

>>12303949
even autismo predestination crap

>>12302505
Government is necessary for a free market (defining and upholding property rights, enforcing contracts, etc.), so no it wouldn't destroy capitalism

>>12303945
I disagree. It runs in my family. Teaching kids total depravity from a very young age makes them neurotic as hell. I had compulsions for a long time until I got on an ssri
>>12303959
Yeah, double predestination and all that. that was the main thing that made me disbelieve

>>12303974
>I disagree. It runs in my family. Teaching kids total depravity from a very young age makes them neurotic as hell. I had compulsions for a long time until I got on an ssri
its just drugs to make you complacent
>Yeah, double predestination and all that. that was the main thing that made me disbelieve
and the autistic bans on songs, paintings?
it would be like living in a museum of comfy retardation

>>12301398
That's cute

>>12303384
Kant proved that Hume's refutation of causality proves the objective trascendental status of time.

>>12301383
>>12301377
>>12301362
Honestly, Marx's ideal society doesn't sound too bad, but it's a pipe dream that's impossible.
"Communism doesn't work because people like to own things."

>>12304006
>"Communism doesn't work because people like to own things."
if that were true corporatism wouldnt work either and here it is making up for the most of human history

>>12301428
nice b8

>>12303987
No bans on songs or paintings besides rap music and the like.

Well, I don't rub my hands raw anymore so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>12304015
its just kids being unruly, thats not a disease its normal, they are trying to present normal kid behaviour as weird so they can seel pharma crap

>>12304023
but in all honesty, knowing you grew up among calvinists total depravity thing is probably correct and you should get help for that, but a human, not chemical one

>>12304023
I only started when I was an adult. It was TOCD by the way, I thought that I would randomly turn into a girl (which was very sinful) if I didn't make sure that I didn't have nail polish on my fingers or make up on my face so I would rub both multiple times a minute when it was at it's worst

>>12304011
How wouldn't corporatism work with people wanting to own things? Isn't corporatism supported by consumerism?

>>12304038
didnt know; thats something serious, i just assumed its the usual made up crap they feed kids parents cause pharma companies want to earn some cash

>>12304039
how can consumerism even function in a system where free market and competition don't exist?
the core of corporatism is community owning things, not the individual

>>12304046
No problem, I can definitely see why someone could think that, I just wish that my family could have figured out what the problem was years before we actually did. They did care but our religion got in the way of looking for psychiatric solutions, so I'm pretty bitter about all of the years I lost to a preventable problem

>>12304060
id say its probably cause they didnt let you have normal association with the opposite sex (by normal i dont mean secular degeneracy)
kids need to play and do the usual stuff which radical protestants usually stifle with overly puritanical attitudes
im not sure whether thats the case since ofc i dont know you

>>12304068
That could be it. I've talked to other people with similar things and the subject of the obsession doesn't really matter. It has more to do with an over active moral scrupolocity feedback loop than anything else. You can be obsessed with thinking your gay, trans, possessed, etc. I've even heard of a patient in San Fransisco that is obsessed with the idea that they are secretly rascist.
This link really helped me to understand it
http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/10/15/the-chamber-of-guf/

>>12304094
the worst outcome is when the said person turns to the opposite extreme instead of logical aristotelian route

>>12304094
now when i thought about it more its disturbing af that being a woman there is equal to being racist in san francisco

>>12304102
Yeah, I kinda had a super sjw phase when I stopped being so religious. I'm much more balanced now though

The best society would be the simple one described by Socrates (Plato) in the Republic. The simple form of the society would have no need for the philosopher king, or a king of any sort.

His buddies claimed that humans need more complex pleasures than what he initially described (in book III).

I understand that Plato's Republic is a dialogue about how to rule the soul, but I think that small bit of book III actually reveals the best way for humans to live.

>>12304002
Is that even what Kant says

>>12301355
>dude what if technocracy was hyper-technocracy lmao

>>12304107
i personally had the opposite life
i sperged out and became ultra religious when my father yelled at me for boycotting sex ed class

Stirner's philosophy directly argues against the idea that a Unique has to take up the cause of any mass socio-political movement, so "putting his idea to practice" is nonsensical.

>>12304136
Everyday I'm more convinced that politics, philosophy and religion are just copes for underlying emotional needs

So are you tradcath or something now?

>>12301355
Accelerationism

>>12304152
>So are you tradcath or something now?
yes in beliefs, but due to the lack of community im struggling to bring it into practice
>Everyday I'm more convinced that politics, philosophy and religion are just copes for underlying emotional needs
true, but i dont think thats the only thing they do, they have multiple functions and doesnt necessarily mean they are false

>>12304115
Habit implies experience, and experience is not possible without time (in the trascendental sense)

>>12304161
>they have multiple functions and doesnt necessarily mean they are false
For the majority of people they are just tribal affiliations agnostic of the actual truth of the matter. But yeah, people can be genuinely interested in them for their own sakes I guess
>but due to the lack of community im struggling to bring it into practice
Does your area not have a diocese?

>>12304182
>Does your area not have a diocese?
theres 2 groups, 1 regular sanctioned by local church authorities, other one outside of diocesan jurisdiction
i go to outside diocesan
both in capital, away from me which are mostly mass groups which have people all over capital and country which loosely know each other
not much of a community, perhaps 50ish people, especially for someone who lives far away and finds it difficult to travel like i do

>>12304197
How does that work? There are unsanctioned Catholic churches? Is that considered to be just a provisional state? How do they determine leadership?

>>12304211
well its a very long and complicated story, but ill try to keep it short

catholic church used to be very very old school, basically theologically unchanged since forever, then they wanted to modernize it to make it modern and cool, approachable to contemporary morals, which they did in the 60s in a council
a small group of catholics (sspx) didnt want to have anything to do with it, but didnt break off with the church, it went on and off with their relations, church has problem with them but never outright condemns them
decades later more people started flocking to ye olde catholicism so church started softening on modernization and making their own sanctioned "trad" groups which will ahve the same aesthetics but accept modern theology to divert people from trad theology which is extremely edgy
there are very differing opinions on it - im one of very edgy people

>>12304235
Interesting, I've never heard of that before. So there are two parralel (or more?) tendencies in the modern church then? I thought that Catholicism was pretty homogenous being centrally controlled and all

abrahamic religious philosophies. they want the world to end and leaders following them would most likely start nuclear wars to do it. the only reason why things progressed to where we're at is because people just larp as being christian. look the middle east for what happens when they actually "follow" it.

ayn rand

>>12304248
Having a highly specified eschatology does tend to make long term stability hard to keep

>>12302785
>Yeah, I’m fine with a highly regulated capitalist economy. It’s the best way to go.
Laissez nous faire bucko

>>12304244
have in mind that tradis are a very small minority, but they arent condemned, more of a grey area, there are a shtiton of progressives, but they ARE condemned clearly
>I thought that Catholicism was pretty homogenous being centrally controlled and all
opposite is true ironically
ill try to present all groups:

first there are ones who openly love progressivism and want to modernize the church into full blown sjw tier, usually jesuits and german priests, they are rejected by the church completely as heretics, but they exist and are everywhere nontheless, the way they succed in anything is that they want authorities to send very broad and interpretative messages they can then interpret to suit them and their orthodox sympathizers can just deny they meant what progressives say, but progressives can claim it means that and nobody does anything and they get away with progressivism
then we have those who are normie tradis who say that the modernizing council is in full adherence with catholic tradition (as opposed to what i believe) and fight "liberals" as those that misinterpret the council
then smallest group (where i belong) which is sspx affiliated which are "gray area" catholics who say that modernizing councils are wrong outright even though they are part of the church and have wildly differing theology are generally edgier in practice (kinda like orthodox vs ultra orthodox jews work)
we also have sedevacantists, but they are basially protestants larping as catholics, you can google them, they are pretty cringey and retarded

>>12301355
For me it's any "deep" ecologist.

>>12304277
Would I be right in thinking that Liberation theology belongs to the liberal faction? Where do all of the orders and such fit in, Jesuits and the like? We kind of have a similar divide in our church, but it's along different lines. There is a Hardline pseudocommunist traditionalist faction who are opposed to both social and economic liberalism (almost kind of like NazBols), a social liberal faction who are still pretty economically conservative (the people in the church that voted for Bernie Sanders and don't hate gays for example), and an economically liberal, socially conservative faction (who are more into people working for out of church businesses, having invest funds and the like). There is also a pro divorce and anti divorce (even in cases of proven abuse!) divide but people don't like to talk about that

>>12304333
>Would I be right in thinking that Liberation theology belongs to the liberal faction?
yes, but its mostly a boogeyman for "conservatives", pseudomarxist bullshit rarely anyone associates with, "liberals" are generally known for demanding more normie progressive things
>Where do all of the orders and such fit in, Jesuits and the like?
its not clear, jesuits, just have the tendency to be very liberal
>Where do all of the orders and such fit in, Jesuits and the like?
communism is cancer among catholics, not a word anyone wants to associate with due to bad history we have with them
>opposed to both social and economic liberalism
pretty much everyone except radical progressives claim that thing here, but in practice most are modern, have in mind that also ovewhelming majority of catholics is cultural and doesnt really adhere to the rules
>a social liberal faction who are still pretty economically conservative
economy in american sense doesnt matter here
being economically left-wing in american sense is kinda obligatory for a catholic

what im getting is that you have more open distinctions while in catholic church everyone claims to be the same and beats around the bush heavily about distinctions
>There is also a pro divorce and anti divorce (even in cases of proven abuse!)
in catholic church divorce is literally impossible regardless of the case
the way they go around it is by abusing marriage annulment rules which are supposed to be proving that marriage isnt validly created, but with liberal application it becomes like a quasi divorce, historically it used to be extremely rare, only abused politically by nobility of the past ages

>>12304372
what i want to add is that what you call communism or socialist often, left wing economics and order is just called traditionalism here, in europe generally left wing economics are practiced regardless of whether someone is left or right, we ridicule americans for their free market extremism
communism and socialism are associated in europe with very differnt things than in the states

>>12304396
I meant public control of the means of production and commodity redistribution. It is very much classically socialist or perhaps even Mutualism-Georgism
The system is based scripturally on
>acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
>43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
>44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.
>45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.
>46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
>47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

>>12304407
>I meant public control of the means of production and commodity redistribution. It is very much classically socialist or perhaps even Mutualism-Georgism
>The system is based scripturally on
traditional communal living isnt really associated with socialism here
when you say socialism in europe it means something else like a specific ideology tahts very progressive and anti traditional life, you interpret it too widely

>>12304410
Well I'm going off of the dictionary definition. You must be a Spaniard, a German or a Pole. No other Catholics would be so concerned about communism

>>12304428
im neither of these, people in europe dont see communism as what you see it
what you call communism we just consider traditionalism or old school living
we dont associate these things with communism, its only an american things since billions of people lived that way before communism

>>12304435
Oh well, bedtime here. Thanks for the conversation. Good night tradcath anon

>>12301355
All of them would probably be bad put into practice with our current populations. There'd need to be a mass culling, reeducation camps, and a new education for the young and malleable people.

>>12301429
niggers

>>12304266
this makes no sense in french

>>12304712
Tell that to the Frenchman that said it.

>>12304006
>Honestly, Marx's ideal society doesn't sound too bad, but it's a pipe dream that's impossible.
Why do people always pretend that cuba doesnt exist when talking about functional marxism / leninism. Its a great place with great people, healthy society and high degree of personal freedom and equality. The fact that cuba has suffered through various levels of economic blockades due to still not having a rotchild central bank doesnt make the economic model dysfunctional.

>>12304929
Tell that to the people in Florida whoo celebrated Castro's death bucko

>>12304929
>t. never been to cuba
its a fucking shithole

>>12301355
Moldbug's Neocameralism would be hellish

>>12302873
best quality for the lowest price, is the cancer here. Immaterial and subjective values get shitted on, pleasure in work, design, the list is endless

>>12304929
its full of black people and atheists

>>12305059
t. communist

>>12301355
It is obviously Stirner anyone who says "muh marx communism XD" is just retarded.
Stirner was the most leftist philosopher in history so that's something to think about as well.

>>12305181
>>12305181
>muh marx communism XD" is just retarded.

Conservative estimates to die from Communism count from 150 million to upwards of 300 million. All due to their retarded reforms.

Communism, is by sheer empirical tests, the most destructive and hellish governance system.

>inb4 NOT REEL

>>12301367
No, just reddittors.

>>12305181
>Stirner was the most leftist philosopher in history

Interesting. If Stirner is the most left wing philosopher, who would be the most right wing? Probably pic

>>12302663
I find the fountainhead to be a very life-affirming, positive book

>>12305241
Capitalism killed more. More died in British India than the Soviet Union, directly killed by free trade policies, likewise in Ireland

>>12305181
>Stirner was the most leftist philosopher in history

Emma Goldman might be a better candidate for that

>>12304150
Based and actually read the book.

>>12305289
Evola is way too left-revolutionary to be even frankly classified as right-winger; De Maistre would've been better suggestion.

It's someone like Pobedonostsev probably. Carlyle is up there too.

>>12303498
Nietzsche was quite literally insane later in life, so the answer is obviously no.


>>12301417
You mean Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab? Ibn Taymiyyah's influence is too broad to single him out as the forerunner of modern Islamic extremism.

>>12305241
I loathe communism (being from the country that had it imposed on it), but to be fair, most of those disasters weren't the result of communism as such, but the uneducated, boorish, anti-intellectual atmosphere that the Soviet revolution birthed and later transplanted into Soviet-influenced countries.

Marx's treatises are interesting and were pretty much necessary at the time he was writing them, but they shouldn't be taken as anything more than that. The traditional Russian/Chinese brutality, insane glorification of the proletariat, and the attempt to make the inherently complex world simple were the real culprits behind the immense death toll of communism.

>>12305347
>De Maistre would've been better suggestion.
>It's someone like Pobedonostsev probably. Carlyle is up there too.

Louis Bonald and Johan Hamann is up there as well

>>12305399
Moldbug and Kuehnelt-Leddihn too now that we got to the practice of naming names.

>>12302785
As long as there's no prevention in two people making a transaction, it's all good. People should be able to make risky decisions that affect only them.
Down with mandatory seat belts and air bags. Down with building codes. Down with the FDA.

>>12305414
Risk (ie. a risk that results into your default if you miscalculate), a default, a *complete* failure is in my view necessary part for functional capitalist market system and every part that tries to stop failures and implosions (be it bank bailouts, Quantitative Easing, or just something individual) will just mangle the system worse and worse.

>>12301419
neet shit

The one that wrote my diary desu.

>>12305658
You fucking cutie. Stop being so cute

>>12303914
that sounds fucking sick

trans-planetary neo-fascist traditionalism when?

>>12305660
Haha yeah I'm a joker like that what can I say aha

>>12301355
marx end thread

>>12306093
Hayek
/thread

>>12302554
Nature and the Environment doesn't even exist senpai. It's just an idealistic construction of urban and suburban dwelling elites.

>>12306164
woke individual with a large penis and big brain

>>12304706
this

>>12305289
>most right wing
legitimists probably

>>12306640
Legitimists were left of people who supported feudalism though.

Sulla is pretty fucking right wing. Taking dictatorship, saving republic for a while, giving power back..

>>12306842
>Legitimists were left of people who supported feudalism though.
legitimsits were the literal supporters of feudalism who wouldnt budge one bit from their principles
>Sulla is pretty fucking right wing. Taking dictatorship, saving republic for a while, giving power back..
sulla had 5 different wives and died with his male lover in his mansion after reinstating cancerous sergian constitution, enriching his gay banker friends and ignoring all real social problems

>>12306861
I would enrich the bankers (firms) over communist state too, that just makes Sulla more right wing.

Now that people brought it up, anyone who isnt feudualist.
Democracy is a failure. We need a wise philosopher king.

>>12306885
Philosopher King is communist project taxonimically and cladistically.

What we need, for right wing project, is corporate feudalism in a patchwork with sovereign CEO overseen by board of directors.. as laid out by Mencius Moldbug in 2007.

>>12306861
being liberal in bed doesn't make you not right wing
the banks are not left wing institutions, they are usually enemies of most states.

>>12306880
>I would enrich the bankers (firms) over communist state too, that just makes Sulla more right wing.
no it doesnt it makes him an unprincipled liberal faggot and it makes you an american
>the banks are not left wing institutions, they are usually enemies of most states.
another american

>>12306932
Corporations are nearly diametrically opposite to States, and States are collective & communist projects. Relation to corporations is the biggest determination of economical right-or-left wing taxonomy.

I would have had America ruled by 13 sovereign corporations instead of federal government.

>>12304038
Holy shit anon, I've had very similar fears my entire life. I used to have nightmares about being forced-fed dragonflies that would turn me into a girl. I still get anxious walking past the female clothing aisles in department stores out of being pulled in by the clothes and being transformed.
It's something that never made sense and I'm not even uncomfortable around women, it's just always been there.
I used to work with a few people with OCD, and it sounds awful. Good luck to you anon, it's a struggle but it's your struggle, which gives you more control than you think, impossible as it can seem at times.

>>12306941
you are not only an american (read: stupid) but also fairly insane as well

>>12307055
Of course I'm stupid, thanks, I don't understand progressives and liberals so I have double digit IQ and deserve to be put on the pasture by transgender politics professor. Everything I say is wrong and evil because that's how it is, progress is eternal.

>>12307071
you do not realize that because of your stupidity, but you are part of the problem with progressives, not their antidote

>>12307086
I know I'm stupid as fuck I hope I die because I'm not good enough to live.

>>12306941
>would have had America ruled by 13 sovereign corporations instead of federal government
Rule by corporation has been done in the past, not only pic related but in the Congo too. It didn't turn out too well for those ruled. I'd much rather be ruled by a government

>>12307102
> He classifies 'EIC' as a failure.
I classify it as a success to a large extent. We come from nearly completely different viewpoints as our metric here (EIC appreciation) shows.

>>12307098
>I know I'm stupid as fuck I hope I die because I'm not good enough to live.
i hope that you would preferrably grow a brain, but since you are american that is unlikely so your suggestion is decent enough

>>12301367
It's the society we live in because he's the only one who's actually not delusional.

>>12307115
I'm actually Finnish but I take being referred to as American retard as the highest compliment as it affirms that my view is somewhat straight as it can't be mistaken with the Communist retardation of Europe.

But still I have low IQ and stupid brain and need to die.

>>12307114
Millions of people dying suggests it was not very competent at governing. That's a pretty good metric for how well it did surely?

>>12307122
preferrably move away to america and join your brothers in double digit iq

>>12301355
Literally any philosopher who believes governmental intervention is a virtue.

>>12307123
>Millions of people dying suggests it was not very competent at governing
The retards of USA, Germany, Britain and Russia (USSR) managed to kill hundreds of millions through government governance in 20th century so I have no doubt about which alternative is less costly on human lives.

>>12301665
This desu.
Or Plato. His republic is absolutely demented.
In Timaeus he suggests a weird mix of eugenics and communism, where a warrior class is bred by keeping "the good ones" and "the bad ones" from mixed breeding with each other, but keeping this a secret from them and faking drawing of lots to select partners.
Anyone who believes this could work for a society is mental.

>>12307126
I'm too stupid like I said I need Communist dictator to herd me and guide me. I wish they would just sent me to kulak so this would be over.

>>12307138
>i wish they would send me a gulag
i dont, you are not worth of the expense and i hardly believe you can be rehabilitated from the braincancer of american mentality

>>12307133
Did any of them managed to kill 1/3 of the population they ruled in four years?

>>12307134
>Taking the Republic as a literal blueprint for a society
Don't tell me you actually do this

>>12305307
>free trade policies
wow..

>>12307145
You're not one of those people who thinks the Republic is satire, are you?

>>12307122
>>12307138
I'd invite you to the great land of the free but sadly the commies are making their way here too. Our economic freedom score isn't even that high anymore. Sorry lad. Try Switzerland.

>>12307159
I would rather not taint the great nation of Switzerland with my stupidity, they deserve better. Beautiful and phenomenal country from what I have read. Their governance system is one of the best (if not the best) in Europe with the Cantons. It's nearly like European example of Singapore, or maybe it is the other way around.

>>12307153
the republic is actually an extremely long-term prank on karl popper
t. leo strauss

>>12307220
explain

>>12307227
Not him but the guy he originally replied to. Popper is a hardcore empiricist who hates Plato and his philosopher kings idea, the joke should be evident.
I like Plato actually but the Republic is too much, and no it was not satire, or Aristophanes wouldn't have made fun of it in the Clouds and the Congresswomen (great read btw, about women taking over the rule of Athens).
There's no point in parodying a satire, ergo Plato must've taken his ideas seriously.

>>12307294
Don't you need un-empirical concepts for concept of empiricism?

>>12306941
>America ruled by 13 sovereign corporations
911, what is your emergency?... sir, i'm afraid that the "theft, rape and assault" package is no longer available in your area. we are always changing to better meet the needs of our clients. you can always use our app to determine the law & order subscriptions still available in your region.

>>12307361
yes. Hume BTFO empiricism ages ago but people either don't read him or choose to ignore him for some reason.

>>12307411
STOP IT ANON I CAN ONLY GET SO FREAKING FUCKING HARD.

>>12307431
I didn't read Hume, I just applied empiricism to itself and found it very contradictory in this very manner.. it's something I do with things. I guess you could call it logical regression? I don't know, I'm stupid as fuck. I just use this to test out concepts and things and how their own logic makes sense when applied to itself. I wish I had brain to articulate better but I am low iQ.

>>12307453
well, the firemen used to be a private enterprise
you can imagine how different it went from just the regular mobsters

>>12301429
Free markets and capitalism are not synonymous

>>12306941
>Relation to corporations is the biggest determination of economical right-or-left wing taxonomy.

Not really. The original far right wing (the Ultra-royalist) were hostile to capitalism.

Likewise, the first hardcore unregulated capitalism supporter, Bastiat, was considered a left winger in his time

>>12306640
>>12305289
>legitimists probably

Amongst the legitimatists, Arthur Gobineau has got to be the most right wing, therefore the most right wing writer ever

>>12308170
Moldbug makes great enough argument for monarchy = CEO succession.

>>12302139
>Giving some mines to his military cronies
>State socialism

This is just your average Latin American autocrat behavior if you keep the army happy you stay in power wether you're a left or right wing despot

Tho' state socialism is synonymous with brutal dictatorship and Pinochet was a brutal dictator himself so the confusion is (at best) understandable

Still Chile es un país serio

>>12308368
What? I was referring to the Ultra Royalist of early 19th France, the original right.

They were hostile to capitalism.

Moldbug is contemporary

>>12308571
I was referring to theory, not history.

>>12307131
This

Any other answer than Thomas Hobbes is fucking wrong.
>>12302026
This.

Hobbes advocated an absolute arbitrary totalitarian government that was to be respected BECAUSE it is arbitrary.

>>12302456
Name a better comeback than this lel

>>12301428
My method is great: Ni-et-Z-S-che
Nee-et-zee-es-ch
But don't pronounce it that way

>>12307431
He ruptured some of empiricism's fallacies, sure, but went and made some of is own. His theory of definition is an absurdity.

>>12301395
>implement marx
>country goes to shit
>abandon marx
>country does fine

Really makes your noggin joggin. But I am sure they will abandon their totalitarian state capitalist course and get back onto the socialist path to the communist utopia my comrade! Any minute now.

>>12309075
China is has one of the countries with the least economic freedom

>>12309105
Yes, and...?

>>12309116
Just wait commie...

>>12309297
Do you have brain problems?

My ideas.
It's basically eugenics but in the opposite direction.

>>12309326
Kill off anyone who isn't a retarded cripple?

>>12301898
It's comfy for a SA country, not thanks to good decissions at internal politics and economical level tho, but rather good alliances and geopolitics.

>>12309075
I have no idea how they teach mao in burgerland but in china they dont view him as bad as uneducated burgers (you) view him. in china they view him as 70% good 30% bad. china would not be what they are today wirhout mao.

>>12309410
>china would not be what they are today wirhout mao.
You mean the worst kind of capitalism under the worst kind of tyranny? Abusing the working class to their hearts content while taking one-sided advantage of the global free market capitalism.

>>12303396
bigger kek than expected, thank you anon.

Out of curiosity what do you think his society would look like?

>>12309460
Basically reddit spread out across a sprawling ironic bureaucracy of policemen in white coats.
The Prisoner, but banal. So lots of sub-helium voices of the adventurous who do not want to get high.

>>12302663
Jewish meth addict... Lived on SSI. Just sayin'.

>>12304006

>>12307041
It's such a weird problem that it's hard to find support for. Have you talked to a therapist about this? It might help if it gets in the way of your life. I have to admit that I sometimes get panic attacks when I walk past the women's aisle. I've found that private and then public (Halloween) crossdressing is a surprisingly good exposure therapy for this issue. Word of the wise, don't ever tell this to a trans person though or they will heavily pressure you into cutting off your dick

>>12301648
>What the hell would a Nietzschean society even look like?
The Horatio from Endless Space 2. Basically, a supergenius who travels space, absorbs the DNA of everything he encounters, and endlessly clones himself to create a massive intergalactic empire of geniuses, while exterminating or enslaving everything genetically beneath him.

>>12309634
A cloistered academy devoted to the development of both mind and body

>>12301429
can't name any

Sent from my iPhone

>>12309586
Nice meme but the theory doesn't even sound good.

>>12309628
Oh yeah, I had a transfer friend who wouldn't let it go, I eventually stopped talking to them when they told some of their lgbtq+ friends who tried to stage an "intervention"
Does crossdressing really help? I'm not even sure of how to shop for that shift discreetly and that makes it even worse to think about.

>>12301355
HEY >:S I WANT TO BE A BIG SHOT PHILOSOPHER TOO.

I WANT TO BE REFERENCED.

>>12303381
Schopenhauer spent all day reading and then wrote an essay with the fundamental premise "don't read, think 4 urself"

Thinking for yourself can lead you to an infinity of possibilities some better or worse so consider so it has to be contained and regimented somehow. It need some context especially if you want to link up with other people and engage with the history of ideas.

>>12303384
>if you can't prove anything, then there is no system.
Wrong. I couldn't prove gravity when I was a kid, yet it was real. Most people can't prove their beliefs, yet they align their behavior by them.

People get Nietzsche wrong, he wasn't a nihilist. If people believed in his project the world would be a more interesting place. It has nothing to do with race or anything as the nazis distorted it. It's more about creating the conditions for renaissance in yourself and overcoming the grip the world attempts to foist over you.
Schopenhauer however does terminate at nihilistic conclusions, and if his views were embraced too much the world would become like the movie I just watched Bird Box. Something about nihilism makes people suicidal or exacerbates depression.
Even then I can think of some Schopenhauer defenders such as myself who believe he hit on deep truths about metaphysics and the universe. It's like his premise is intact, his argument is intact, but his conclusions veer off into arbitrary directions.

>>12310780
Yeah it does help, it's basically exposure therapy. Like if you had arachnophobia, working your way up to actually touching a spider would definitely help you conquer your fears. Try getting an Amazon lockbox. You can order things and pick it up at a third party location so don't have to worry about snoopy roommates/parents/gf. You're the first person I've ever talked to that's had the same problem

>>12312672
Thanks man, I'll look into it. I've never met anyone else with this problem either, and after my experience with my trans friend (who I thought would be more understanding) I haven'the told anyone else. I plan on getting my own apartment soon as well, which should hopefully help me confront it in a privacy I'm more comfortable with.

>>12302470
Yes they are. Humans are evil and markets are capitalist, deviance from this just creates pus.

>>12301429
Absurdity and burnout.

>>12302470
based

>>12302470
What markets aren't capitalist?