/lit/ - Literature

"things can only be good or evil, you poopy doody bad man"- 4 year olds and right wingers

I think it’s ignorant to believe anything is inherently evil because there is no such thing as “evil”.

This being said when it comes to praxis at every conceivable level Marxism is an abject failure. People that are enchanted by Marxist ideas are the most obnoxious and usually found then through some other sort of failure in their lives which sometimes isn’t their fault. I belive capitlaims is utterly failing us on a cultural level and leaving people feeling atomized. For many Marxism is simply a religious dogma that works as a filler for the decline of religion in society, s decline of culture, and an overall social breakdown. The good news is that there’s a lot of money now, we have a lot more than we’ve ever had. It’s quite disturbing to see people trying to fill this sense of community with eastern religion, pop science, or things like astrology. It’s humanity trying to course correct, but as modernity marches on it’ll just get worse and I suspect we’ll see more silly communists.

Also don’t be afraid to read marxists thinkers as they’re some of the most interesting people around, and frankly they criticize Marx and communism better than any outsiders ever do if that’s what you’re looking for.

>>12295355
"things are never good or evil, everything is relativ"- school indoctrinated prick or pseudo philosophers

>>12295375
I have read Marx in the original language ( german ) and I came to the conclusion that Marxism would only work if you had Robots and no human being that could do something that is irrational.

Still there are some ideas that are intresting, but the ideologie is inherently evil, because it aims at destroying the individual.

>>12295386
For you nigger, it may be evil, for a marxist not so much.

"I fear what I don't understand."

>>12295409
It is also evil for the marxist. The only differnce being that I can see the evil in his actions and he cant, because he doesnt understands what evil really is.

>>12295419
Woah, we got truth monopoly over here.

>>12295341
It isn't, that's the problem.

>>12295426
Would your mind showing me "your" truth ?

>>12295414
Then explain, just caling me out for not understanding wont change a thing.

>>12295448
I got mine, in practicality that I use in my life then I got theoretical objective truth which just doesnt exist. If I was a total nihilist, I would kill you, but hey I am loyal to my "truth".

>>12295431
You are just saying "oh look you arent right", but you are not showing facts that I am not right or any kind of prove.

>>12295375
>Marxism is bad because marxists are obnoxious
>marxism is bad because marxists are failures in life
>Capitalism is bad too because affect culture
>Marxism is bad because take the place of religion, or religion is bad?
>Money is good and there is a lot of it
>People is trying to fill a void in their lives throught other unrelated things with the topic in hand and that's bad
>Modernity marches
It's this /lit/ discourse level? Why don't stay shut if dont have nothing to say?

>>12295461
What you are saying is a contradiction in it self. If something like obejctiv truth doesnt exist, its and objectiv truth that objectiv truth doesnt exist.

Doublethink~

>>12295486
Let me correct myself, there is an objective truth but man is never gonna achieve it, thats why people have their truths.

>>12295476
And do you have anything productiv to say ?
It would be pretty hypocritical if you just called people out for not saying something usefull, but you also didnt say anything usefull.

I dont know if you can understand my point.

>>12295341
What is evil but the creation of suffering to benefit a select few? Therefore every (except Jesus) is evil.

marxism is based
if you say "w-well it's evil because it makes workers angry" you are probably some class traitor who will hang alongside all your corrupt, jewish banker friends on the day of the revolution.

>>12295386
that's not even a somewhat accurate dilemma. good and evil could not exist and that could still be an objective fact. also, I bet you haven't read Smith or Marx because they actually have a lot of common ground
>The labour of a manufacturer adds, generally, to the value of the materials which he works upon, that of his own maintenance, and of his master’s profit.
-Adam Smith

>>12295497
But you have achieved objectiv truth already.

I think we can find common ground here
>existence exists

please tell me if you would agree with this objectiv truth

>>12295453
Where to begin. Please read this post because I'm really telling you.

Much of the terror and violence that you associate with marxism was the lifetime experience of most people turned out to marxism. Internally the content of marxism describes the accurate picture and point of view of most people on earth as they stand in relation to the economic system.

That doesn't mean it's best for everyone to follow Marx's recommendations. The dude's been dead for many years, his theories do not respect the rapid changes and developments in the economy and in its capabilities. There are many dogmatic and foolish marxists, who don't study or think about anything else and simply become a repetition of a failed model.

Had Trotsky taken power instead of Stalin, the world may have been a better place. Stalin fucked so much up. However, it's also scary to have power structured so that the substitution of one individual for another can change the course of history.

Marxism has nothing to do with the state controlling everything. It's emergent and democratic, your life is built around your community and the people of your choosing.

The fatal assumption is that even if Marx is right in the long haul about capitalism, it doesn't have to end in the ways he prescribed. It could end because the mode of production has become so advanced money and ownership of the means of production doesn't matter like it used to.

This is where things are headed, I'd wager.

>>12295516
Yeah but the difference is that Marx thinks that the "capitalist" stole the labour of the worker and Smith thinks that the "master" should be rewarded for his doings.

I could go deeper into that the profit that the capitalist makes is his reward for the risk he took, but I dont know if you want to hear this....

>>12295516
the ideas of things being good and evil are human inventions. If a lion maws you to death its because he is hungry, not because he hates you

>>12295529
>Much of the terror and violence that you associate with marxism was the lifetime experience of most people turned out to marxism

I want to expand on this. You probably have a hard time understanding how shitty some people truly have it, and this shittiness was only magnified 1000 fold in the 19th century when life was still quite rough even for advanced societies.

Now imagine Marx comes tottering along and tells you you can mobilize to fuck the people who fucked you, because they're really and truly fucking you and your whole family and everyone you care about. In fact they don't even recognize your full humanity, prole.

See the appeal? How would you not want to pick a rifle up? And that's what tens of millions of people did.

>>12295529
I am not criticising Marxism based on any historical events, more on a moral way. It is just evil to strip a man of his Identity and make him work for the state/community/what ever.

But I like this idea
>The fatal assumption is that even if Marx is right in the long haul about capitalism, it doesn't have to end in the ways he prescribed. It could end because the mode of production has become so advanced money and ownership of the means of production doesn't matter like it used to.

anyway out of all posts that were made today this one was one of the better ones.

>>12295500
Look, tripfag, I don't come to the internet to convincente people of my epic worldview or to own some (insert ideology)tards, we could discusse the topic in hand(which make no sense btw), but you wouldn't reach those conclusions if you read the literature on the topic, so I recomend you to stop taking your opinions from here or youtube comment section, without that discussing this topic with someone who doesn't read is meaningless.

>>12295560
>It is just evil to strip a man of his Identity and make him work for the state/community/what ever
are you joking right now or are you really this oblivious?

>>12295554
Nah my background is from SriLanka and Sierra Leone I know how shitty some people have it.
The thing is those people have ot shitty, because they have shitty goverments which take advantage over the people.

Sri Lanka for example took a loan form China, they build a new port, but couldnt pay back the loan. China in all its mercy didint charge them anymore and relift them from all their debt in exchange of the port until 2099.

Marx Ideas would have been great in 1600 when their still was feudalism and stuff, but in our times you need to earn things.

>>12295386
stick to your knuckledragging theism tard.

>>12295548
so? that has nothing to do with objectivity. disproving the concepts of good and evil != disproving objectivity

>>12295548
It is an evil act to kill for the gain of one self.
The lion just needs to kill to survive ( to stay at 0 ).

If you would kill someone to survive, because you have nothing to eat it wouldnt be evil.
If you were to kill a man for his watch, you would be considered evil.

>>12295519
Should I?

>>12295476
No reason to apply intent where there is none friend. I’m simply giving you my general analysis. I don’t know how you could attribute such strong connotation to these things when the very first thing I said was that there is no inherent evil implying there’s no inherent good either. You’re talking like a woman right now.

If you want reasons why Marxism is destructive they aren’t hard to find.

>>12295573
>are you joking right now or are you really this oblivious?
not joking or would you say working for a state that doesnt give a fuck about you is good ?

>>12295600
>The lion just needs to kill to survive ( to stay at 0 ).
I see you've never own a cat. They kill just for fun.

>>12295534
Marx thought ownership of the means of production gave unfair advantage to the owner that the worker did not have, therefore it leads to exploitation, he basically worked with Smith's economic principals and tried to deduce the social implications. this is one of the least controversial areas of Marx, and one that liberal government actually followed along with by creating workers rights, pensions, disability, min wage, ect.

>>12295611
relativism is what created this problem in the first place, cant you see ???

If your saying there is no objectiv truth then there cant be and objectiv value to actions.

That would mean I could kill you and it would not be good or evil.

>>12295529
>Internally the content of Marxism describes the accurate picture and point of view of most people on earth

I think this is at the heart of every conversation about this. I agree with you anon, but you must see how absolutely nebulous that really is. To some people an accurate description of the world is Zoroastrianism. You can insert almost anything here. Marx gives a convincing analysis of class struggle which is very alluring and seductive to put it simply. This is how every Marxists starts when discussing their ideas but it doesn’t mean the prescription given by Marx or any of the theorists that followed him is correct. In fact Marxists criticize communism and Marx more than anyone else and the deeper into you delve the more complex it truly becomes as it starts to course correct.

>>12295624
I am not arguing agianst social systems.
I am arguing agianst Marxism as a whole.

>>12295617
Working for a corporation that doesn't give a fuck about you is awful, too.
Ideally in Marxism, the worker has a complete control over his own work and production and is paid equal in proportion to his work, without anyone else profiting unfairly off his labor.
The state in Marxism is supposed to be powerful enough to guarantee that; the problem is historically nothing can prevent the revolutionary class (which was not developed in Marxism but in Leninism) from seizing power and becoming despotic assholes.

>>12295641
okay I can get behind that, because what I have seen is that some self proclaimed Marxists criticize communism harder then a lot of fReEmArKeT capitalist.

>>12295644
no your not, your trying to cherry pick small issues which will bring down Marxism as a whole -- if you want to argue against Marx as a whole you have to reject Smith; they were both labour value theorists. protip: try reading books anon they are like cheat codes to not looking like a brainlet

>>12295341
Well he was right about capitalism if nothing else

>>12295636
If you want to talk about relativity we can have that conversation but I don’t think that has much to do with communism unless you’re talking about people like Foucault. I’d agree with you that moral and cultural relativity are bad and destructive as well. As far as I can see we bascially agree with almost everything except you insist on objective truth which it’s obvious now that’s what this thread is really about.

I think there’s no objective truth without a god and I simply don’t believe that. Like man, I do believe that’s it’s objectively wrong to kill other people but not because there’s any inherent reason for this passed down from a higher moral authority. 99% of people have morality even if it’s just subjective morality. It’s wrong to kill people because of the natural law of humanity, social consequence, selfishness etc.

This is particularly frustrating because we both have a distaste for communism and we both can see how harmful social construction and relativity is but I think maybe you’re uncomfortable with the idea of there being now god. I respect your religious ideas and your faith and I think it’s fine if you have those feelings. People aren’t religious like they used to be and I think people like you and me will need to work together towards building traditionalism back up and making a strong society for eachother children. Please belive me when I say this is very important, the world is changing and the future will be better when we can work together. It’s almosy inevitable.

my poo poo hole oorts

>>12295645
See you got 2 things worng here buddy.

1.When you corporation is treating you like shit and they dont have a monopoly then you can just go to the commpetion. In a good state the worker has free choice over his workspace in his field of ability.

2.
> without anyone else profiting unfairly off his labor
what is unfairly ?
If I own a car factory and my 10 worker create 10 cars per our and i cann sell them for 200 each and i give all of my worker 100 dollar a hour and take the other 1000 an hour for me and the business is this unfair ?

Wouldnt this be fair, because I take the risk that the business fails and I will still keep paying my worker 100 an hour even if I have to sell my cars for 150 or less they still have the sameamout of money they get.

The Profits go to the people who own the means of production, because they have all the risk on them.

>>12295696
>I take the risk that the business fails and I will still keep paying my worker
>what are layoffs
risk is a meme, anon. how often do you see billionaires going broke from all their """risk"""?

>>12295341
IF YOU'RE OPERATING WITHIN A PARADIGM THAT RECOGNIZES "EVIL" AS A PROPERTY ASSIGNABLE TO THOUGHTS IT'S EASY TO LABEL MARXISM AS SUCH SINCE IT'S THOROUGHLY AMORAL AND DOESN'T RECOGNIZE ANYTHING AS INHERENTLY "EVIL" BUT YOU JUST FAIL TO GRASP THE CUNNING OF REASON

>>12295689
I dont belive in God i belive in the individual.
I dont really like Foucault and all of them postmodern philosophers, because they habe this neo marxist view on things.

But I would really like to talk more with you.

>>12295718
wtf why blow good bait by dropping the pmnm meme?

>>12295711
The list is huge. Just google it and you will be fine.

>>12295341
question to capitalists: what exactly do shareholders, trust fund babies and people who life off of rent and interest in general add to the economy? What would happen if these people, who take the overwelming majority of the wealth generated by capital, would one day dissappear?

>>12295711
If risk is just a meme then please go and start a business. I would like to see how you fall the the power of >just a meme.

>>12295731
>question to capitalists: what exactly do shareholders, trust fund babies and people who life off of rent and interest in general add to the economy? What would happen if these people, who take the overwelming majority of the wealth generated by capital, would one day dissappear?

easy answer they bring their Willingness to take risks with them.

>>12295611
Well I point them out because they are not very well tought, even the very first thing you say is wrong

>>12295726
okay I found a meme list of 15 throughout history. there were nearly 400 billionaires made in just 2017. this is way sub 1%.

>>12295731
i meant to say, question to defenders of capitalism ofcourse, why capitalists would defend it is obvious

>>12295736
I don't own any capital, it would be a HUGE risk for me to take out a bunch of loans from rich ass bankers and try and start a buisness. you are literally proving my point anon

>>12295753
dude just compare forbes 500 list form 1980 with today, please adjust for inflation and boom, less then 50 stayed.

>>12295718
I’m inclined to value the individual as well. Ideas like “there isn’t a minority smaller than the individual” resonate with me. Philosophically this makes the most sense to me.

A few problems arise though because it appears that most people are deaf to these ideas. While in my heart this is true I feel I can never see a society organized or even largely influenced by these ideas and it feels just as utopian and naive thinking we could as communism appears to me. I can’t say I have any good way to solve this. I look through history and this has been true during the genesis of many of these concepts as well, beyond the modern conception of identity, tribalism has always existed and people are simply not inclined to live their lives as an individual for whatever reason. Frankly it’s hard on the soul to remain so apart from others as well as I believe there’s also a biological aspect to people wanting to connect and socialize which is why I think personalities attuned to high socialization are attracted to communism ( women fit well within communist frameworks for example as they’re more communicative than men).

For me the best thing is to feel connected to others with similar ideas and trying to be conscious about my own autonomy. This is where I’m at with it but I feel as if there’s more for me to learn.

>>12295783
just because they are pushed off the 500 list doesn't mean they are broke, it doesn't even mean they are no longer a billionaire. there are thousands of billionaires.

>>12295744
taking risks is easy with a huge reserve of capital and a team of advisors
even easier when the ones who suffer the most from shitty buisiness decisions are the employees

>>12295341
no, you're right

>>12295744
>>12295736
ya, the law is designed to be extremely lenient on "risk takers"... it's a much bigger gamble to not get a billion dollars into debt so you become to big to fail.

https://chat.whatsapp.com/DgrgMACbYxs0CXIRvPrAuJ

lets keep this going if some of you want :D

>>12295795

>>12295749
That there is no evil? I guess that’s a matter of ethical and philosophical opinion. It’s hard take you seriously when you’re being such an absolutist but I guess that’s like, your opinion, man.

Atleast give me some reason or thoutful rebuke if why you feel I’m wrong.

>>12295816
this to big to fail is, because of keynischen economics.
I for myself would have let the big banks go bankruppt and let the country and the world sipp into a big economic krisis.
Would have been like the great depression but no so long and hard i think.

But this has nothing to do with Marxism or has it ?

>>12295341
Evil? Well, it's results have been largely negative... Still, it is I think better described as limited in it's understanding, and whenever so limited as road-map is used to navigate the real world, disaster is sure to come about...

Guys gotta go and grab some food.
If any of you guys still wanna keep this conversation up just join the group

https://chat.whatsapp.com/DgrgMACbYxs0CXIRvPrAuJ