/lit/ - Literature

>>12275987
Based opinion. Shit person.

>>12275987
>profound meditation on the human condition
no comicshitter thinks this.

>>12276003
>no comicshitter thinks this.
Go watch Moviebob who thinks Marvel movies are literal art.

>>12275987
>jew
>our guy
Back to Ředdit.

>the comments section

>>12276003
read the comments on the video.

He's right, but there's a certain irony in his labeling of comic book fans as dumb as if he's so much better than they are. Bill always irks me with his arrogant, sarcastic, holier-than-thou attitude. You're not smart, Bill. You're not a clever guy. You're average.

well some of them are pretty good

>>12275987
I mean the first comicbook movies (Raimi's Spider-Man, Nolan's The Dark Knight, Hellboy) were pretty good, but when you make a clone of Iron Man 1 every two years, things start to get fucking boring.

I am not denying that there is a certain artistry in comic books but if the highest achievment in comic books is watchmen, and the highest achievment in manga is Berserk (as a consensus by the fans),.Those people cant even hold a candle to literature greats.

>>12275996
this is how i feel too

>>12276011
But they are. All movies are art.

>>12276090
>average
Ahem, he's a Jew, you know.

>>12276129
All those are like 4th wave.

The first comic movies were in the late 80s and got actually popular mainstream in the mid 90s with The Crow, The Mask, Tank Girl.

>>12276019
that does hurt

He's right I checked out of mainstream culture like 20 years ago.

>>12275987
Something to note at least is that really what they're saying is:
>profound meditation on the american human condition is a dumb fucking culture

From a quick glance at box office, the superhero movies appeal to the western mindset more so than others. I majored in film (yes I know) and foreign films really are nothing like Hollywood flicks. Superhero movies being amongst the lowest grade.

A profound meditation?
Of course not. But it is saying something that they are so popular.

>>12277881
>But it is saying something
care to tell us?

>>12276019
>C.C. Ekeke
1 month ago
Maher thinks comic books are dumb yet appeared in a deleted scene for Iron Man 3, which is based on a comic book. Huh.

This guy does have a point.

>>12277881
>From a quick glance at box office, the superhero movies appeal to the western mindset more so than others. I majored in film (yes I know) and foreign films really are nothing like Hollywood flicks. Superhero movies being amongst the lowest grade.

Foreign films are all high quality art films like Hitler Goes Kaput no doubt.

>>12277889
I just meant it's intriguing. I don't know what it means.

>>12277906
>I don't know what it means
I believe bill had it right, >a dumb fucking culture
but im open to other perspectives I guess. I just haven't been able to see anything worthwhile to these movies.

>>12275987
Lol at the triggered basedboys in the comments

>>12276151
Swamp Thing is the highest achievement in comics, and while it is certainly lacking in high culture compared to literature, I have yet to encounter another medium that can properly demonstrate a giant inconceivably complex space monster forcibly capturing and raping a swamp monster to harvest its semen.

>>12275987
He's not that funny but I'm also tired of capeshit and cape fans, superheroes are lame and have always been lame.
Fuck. I doubt anyone is really saying that capeshit is a "profound meditation on the human condition."
Also, anyone who uses a phrase like "profound meditation on the human condition" as a euphemism for worthwhile/meaningful sounds like a fucking fag. Pseud. Bullshit.
I don't give a shit about other people's dumb hobbies tho I like to think that I have better things going on

>>12277881
>amongst
What something is it saying that they are so popular

It’s all so pedestrian

>>12277881
>the superhero movies appeal to the western mindset more so than others
Isn't that shit pretty popular in China?

>>12277894
He doesn’t have to think a movie is high art to appear in it retard

I have never watched a superhero movie nor have I ever read an American comic yet I look down on those that did.

>>12275996
This is the correct analysis.

>>12278312
He knows the place superhero movies have in American culture so appearing in it is supporting it in a way. If he actually cared about improving US culture he would not have appeared in it.

>>12277835
>All movies are art
Wow you could not be more wrong if you tried

>>12278415
Coming from someone who loathes Hollywood to their deepest inner essence,
Based on the definition of the word art, all movies are art.
But in a broader sense art can be absolutely anything provided you see it as art. No one can tell you what is or isn't art. There is no dividing line.

>>12275987
Proverbs 26:7
A fool trying to say something wise is like a crippled person trying to walk.

>>12278415
>he doesn't know art can be bad

>>12278431
How can you *try* to say something wise
You either say something wise or don't

>>12278468
you can emulate other wise guys and still be a dumb dumb

>word on page = good
>word on page with picture = bad

>>12278489
They still said something wise though, they didn't try - they said it.
And a crippled person really has no shot of walking, it's a foregone conclusion, there's no upshot.
The analogy vexes me, I'm terribly vexed

>>12278520
You're very dumb.
A crippled person can try to walk, he won't succeed like the dumb person won't be able to say anything profound.

>>12277900
Nice strawman, Anon! But don't forget: you can do better than that!

>>12275987
he's right but he forgot he's part of the problem too, these talk shows are no less cancer than comic books

>>12278133
>I have yet to encounter another medium that can properly demonstrate a giant inconceivably complex space monster forcibly capturing and raping a swamp monster to harvest its semen.
Well, you're not wrong there.

>>12277881

Yeah when he said "culture" I immediately assumed he was talking about American culture at large, not specifically the comic book subculture

>>12278133
>Swamp Thing is the highest achievement in comics
t. guy who has literally never read a comic that isnt set in a superhero universe
daniel lima, matthew thurber, michael deforge, patrick kyle, leon sadler and countless other greats all put moore's various overwrought purple prose + pulp illustration pamphlets to shame

>>12278738
forgot to mention moscoso somehow!!

>>12278511
but there are far, far, far less words in a comic book, severely limiting the ability to convey sustained, complex ideas
and the words included are disjointed by the pictures, precluding the chance for sustained, contemplative interpretation bitch

I'd agree with him if he said "superhero comics" and "superhero movies", because he seems to think that's all comics are. I guess he's never read Maus or Joe Sacco or even Peanuts

>>12278746
but there are pictures in a comic book, which allows for the expression of ideas that aren't easily expressed through language
and the pictures (generally) follow from each other sequentially, allowing the artists to depict places and actions without awkward literary techniques like long scenery description or vague verbal translations of bodily movement

>>12278755

the most worthwhile novels are concerned with internal worlds as opposed to external environments or appearances, so not much is lost in that respect

>>12278744
Smoking tobacco is good for you.

>>12278755
just imagine how terrible this would be if we forced it to be expressed in prose!!

>>12278761
i mean, its almost as if prose developed as a way to mirror our internality????? so perhaps the reason novels that are concerned with the external don't seem as good is because the medium is not very well adapted to those types of expression!! big if true!!!

>>12278771
If that's what you're so concerned about why not just stick to film? It conveys setting and external emotions far more fluidly and authentically..

>>12278776
well you see film is actually a different medium from comics!! you cant do this >>12278767
or this >>12278744 effectively in a film because the pace isn't set by the reader and it is a lot harder for the director to control things such as canvas size!!

another thought, have you ever noticed that our mode of existence contains both the internality of prose and the external aesthetic experience mirrored by film? neither can very adequately capture the totality of what it is to be human, and while the comic page has many limitations of its own, it is one of the few modes of expression we have developed that can actually somewhat effectively render both the internal and external elements of our existence!! if you try reading some instead of smugly dismissing it because you associate the whole medium with x-men comics you might find some very worthwhile work!!

>>12275996
fpbp

>>12278744
OMG that's so good! What an engrossing storyline! Really something that will stick with me forever and that I will want to seek out to read more of

>>12278853
>the only valuable thing in art is narrative!!! this piece of art that makes no attempt to present a narrative is insufficient because the narrative isn't very good!!!
>this michelin star food is terrible, narrative really didn't engross me at all!!!
>god i fucking hate michelangelo... terrible artist... such weak narratives in his sculptures
you are one step above a metalhead who engages with no other art except for metal music because non-metal doesn't have BIG HEAVY riffs

plenty of comics have fantastic narratives anyway, though obviously i cant demonstrate that by attaching one picture to a 4chan post

he's correct, but he's only a tier or two above those movies.

i mean how on earth do these plebs enjoy fucking bach!! fucking plagiarized all the words for mass!

>>12278789
Your tone is excruciating

>>12275987
I hate capeshit but a culture that's given Bill Maher his own TV show for 25 years is a dumb fucking culture.

>>12278867
>god i fucking hate michelangelo... terrible artist... such weak narratives in his sculptures
except this is wrong

>>12278877
i absolutely hope it is anon!!! i hope people who dismiss whole areas of art that they never actually bothered to look into in the first place find my posts very unpleasant to read!! i hope they modify their behaviour and climb down from the dunning kruger mountain!!

>>12275987
He's liberal he will never be /ourguy/, he's the enemy.

>>12278884
i assume you're referencing the sistine chapel (which is why i said 'sculptures') but if there is some narrative element to his sculptures i dont understand then i would be interested in hearing more

would also note that the sistine chapel is formally closer to a comic than a traditional painting

Are amerisheeps finally waking up that their culture is cancer ?

Honestly, the problem with this attitude is it doesn't really change. Mainstream culture is always stupid and lowbrow; shitting on capeshit is equivalent of shitting on pulp magazines in the 1920s, everyone did/does it, and costs zero energy when you're a rich snob.

If you actually read the comics, then you would know how they have touched on some of the most practical and real aspects of society, even through the lens of fantasy. Comics touch on the human story, bullying, racism, politics, science, relationships, and so much more.

>>12278896
his sculptures all tell a story anon :) the expressive pose and crap indicate narrativity

>>12278926
erotica does it better desu.. no filter.. the more schlocky you get, the moer authentic..

>>12277881
>Something to note at least is that really what they're saying is:
>profound meditation on the american human condition is a dumb fucking culture
Now why would they do that...

>>12278923
This.

>>12275987
He's extremely arrogant, just watching his facial expressions puts my teeth on edge. He can't have an opinion without letting you know how superior he is.

>>12275987
https://youtu.be/pllcTlN-7dQ

>>12275987
>is a media personality /ourguy/

Hmm, let me think about that for a moment... No.

>superheroes are the current Greek myths

>>12276025
i pray for the death of the universe

>>12275987

That's pretty antisemitic of him to say desu

>>12278196
Yes but the Chinese are brain slugs

>>12279364
>is a Jew /ourguy/

Hmm, let me think about that for a moment...

>>12275987
how will the necbeards ever recover?

>>12277881
>But it is saying something that they are so popular.

marketings is they key to make large bucks in the movie industry in case you didn´t notice

>>12276011
of course they are art. they are just lowbrow.

>>12277839
No one ever has love for Christopher Reeves Superman

>>12275987
No because a culture that thinks "edgy" Liberals who do epic takedowns of creationists are smart is a dumber fucking culture.

>>12279584
phreaker is wrong, the only impressive part of the marvel movies is Kevin Feige's consistency

>hurr durr capeshit and comic books are shite
>I love anime and manga though
Why is 4chan like this?

>>12280504
different demographics? i for one have always disliked anime and manga. i think it's poorly written poorly drawn filth for effeminate men and little girls.

>Nerd culture is the product of a late capitalist conspiracy designed to infantalize the consumer as a means of non-aggressive control
Pegg

>SW is for children but fans dont want to admit it. They get upset and opinionated about anything that has anything to do with being childlike
Lucas

>SW created the big-budget comic book mentality, ate the heart and the soul of Hollywood
Schrader

>A 12yo boy told me proudly that he had seen SW over a 100 times? I said 'could you promise never to see it again?' He burst into tears. I hope the lad, now in his 30s, isnt living in a fantasy world of secondhand childish banalities
Guinness

>I dont think it became an elevated art form, its still Batman running around in a stupid cape. Its for kids, adolescent in its core
Cronenberg

>I dont want to see films about superheroes that fly around in spandex and a cape solving the problems of the world. Its fine for children, children of all ages btw, but its not for me
Friedkin

>Its poison, cultural genocide. Audience is so overexposed to plot and explosions and shit that means nothing about the experience of being human
Iñárritu

>Spandex must cost a lot. I look at them and scratch my head. Im really baffled by it
Gibson

>Superman makes me vomit, Batman and all of that. That whole empire, this religion. Its so important that superheroes suffer... I dont give a damn, I shit on the United States
Jodorowsky

>Superman Vs Spiderman, Iron Man Vs Superman... I cant believe people are still paying to see this shit
Verhoeven

>I hope we get Avenger fatigue soon. There are other stories to tell
Cameron

>I read comics when I was a kid, I dont read them now, I prefer adult oriented stuff
Eastwood

>This embracing of what were unambiguously children's characters at their mid-20th century inception indicates a retreat from the overwhelming complexities of modern existence
Moore

>Its produced by humans who cant stand looking at other humans. And thats why the industry is full of otaku!
Miyazaki

>>12275996
This.

>>12280504
>everyone in 4chan is a weeb
You have to go back

>>12280504
Anime was a mistake, it is nothing but trash.

● There are Korean balls in the waist and back of the head! Asatsuki (Aura's empyema), Billiken and Shisa did it? 2018/12/25 4: 08 ●

● There are some confuses left! Spot welded state! Burnham effect? Is it Mariko? 2018/12/25 3: 39 ●
● Those who use incense in Amazon are sending bad things to me! 2018/12/25 3: 33 ●
● Sending a bad thing to me with a burnham effect etc. with CAMEX (Beast Zodiac Zodiac) 's abramerin!
Dumpling And Miyakojima (Oka) cooperate! Masako, Murakoshi, or Mariko did it 2018/12/25 3: 37 ●

>>12280523
>I dont give a damn, I shit on the United States
lmao

based jodorowsky

>>12280504
There's a difference between capeshit and decent graphic novels. There's also a difference between naruto and junji ito

>>12280523
>>Nerd culture is the product of a late capitalist conspiracy designed to infantalize the consumer as a means of non-aggressive control
>Pegg

just eliminate this one, it's such an awful quote it undermines everything else

>>12280701
but it's probably the most true one

>>12280523
holy BASED

>>12280725
ESL here
is it most true or truest?

>>12276151
Literally no one thinks that watchmen and berserk are the pinnacle of their medium.

>>12278423

Art is not practical or useful. This is the dividing line.

>>12280837
Either is fine, unless your company's style guide says otherwise.

>>12276003
go on /co/ for ten minutes.

guy is such a pretentious cunt fuck him

>>12280523
>>Superman makes me vomit, Batman and all of that. That whole empire, this religion. Its so important that superheroes suffer... I dont give a damn, I shit on the United States
>Jodorowsky
DAMN

>>12280523
Kekked at Guiness. Very based

I like how he triggered the soiys

>>12280523
I get off on Moore bitching about comics. I tend to agree with that viewpoint anyways. The bullshit obsession 20+ have with Disney, SW and capeshit is a bit fucked. See how adults start shitting their pants because a movie wasn't popular enough or didn't go where they wanted it to go. Escapism is alright and I for one believe that there isn't anything wrong with an adult enjoying children's media but if you're soiling your panties over this shit and it's a massive part of your life then you might have a problem because none of that crap is in any shape or form challenging.

>>12278789
what a shit comic lol

>>12281351
what's shit about it?

Aside from nobody actually thinking this, comic book movies and the like are per usual when it comes to the blatantly retarded masses and their tastes. Humans have always enjoyed the lowest level of entertainment since the dawn of our species. I don't see any reason to complain.

>>12279584
what a psued, comic books are gay but this dude has no idea what he's talking about

>>12279584
>Phreaker1997

Would never want to skateboard battle with this kid... He'd thrash me and take all my pogs

>>12275987
what difference does it make if there are images accompanying a morale or not?
bill maher is being autistic and elitists would agree with him

>>12281357
a lack of any good qualities

>>12278746
that is a handicap of the medium then, it doesn't mean that a particular cartoonist maverick couldn't pull something like it off
not everyone utilises books in the best manner
just look at 50 shades of gray
there are many, many, many manga and graphic novels that have philosophical themes just like there are many many books that completely fail at this

>>12281383
>there are many, many, many manga and graphic novels that have philosophical themes
that doesn't make them good

>>12281394
just because you say something doesn't mean it's true

I can say something like "well actually it does" and then i'd have beaten you according to your ass first, thinking later logic...

Girls Last Tour for instance might seem extremely simple next to works of literature but it is a medium that pairs entertainment with philosophy and amplifies both

fuck you and fuck elitists
>heh anime is for gays and autists
O.K.

bill maher is kind of a fag now. i remember when he used to be edgy. now he's just a mainstream commentator

>>12276151
>berserk
Unironicly lurk more. Or not /a/ is absolutely dogshit now.
But no one this it's the best ever, maybe for the art.

>>12276151
>>12277881
>>12278161
>>12278918
>>12278923
>>12280504
>>12280523
wow its almost like the more emphasis an industry is forced to place on profit, the less able it is to produce high art

imagine that

>>12275987
Comic strips>Comic books, at least when it comes to calling it art.

>>12275987
even a broken clock is right twice a day.

>>12277894
>Man offered cheque to appear in a film
>he accepts
>the nerve!

>>12278423
>cars are art
>software is art
>sex is art
>taking a shit is art
kys

>>12280350
Fair enough, but I was thinking in terms of trends of movies into subgenres of their own.

Superman was pretty much by hisself until 80s Batman

>>12282270
cars are art
software is technology
sex is not
taking a shit is nothing

whats up with infantilisation of adults? My father left home at 13 to fucking work

>>12282489
Yeah? Mine left at 12. And he didn't even have shoes. Back then, if you wanted shoes you made your own. Out of potatoes.

>>12275996
fpbp

>>12277881
The most that can be said about recent superhero flicks is that they're reflections of American insecurity in a post 9/11 world designed t o comfort Americans and advertise the US led international system to foreigners.

>>12281609
Art is art BECAUSE it is the prop of capital, it says more about reality than any mimesis could. Art is the absence of meaning, a quarantine from reality at which its representation is actually bait.

Similar to >>12277881, but there never was a "good" movie just an annihilation of a certain semantum.

>>12282489
Because children are easier to control than adults. Keeping people in a state of perpetual childhood makes there job easier for the government, so a state religion of worshipping youth and "innocence" (whatever that means) becomes the official policy. Growing up requires a rejection of state propaganda

>>12282489
It probably scarred him in ways he'll never be able to describe. Also he was probably abused at some point of his childhood as a worker (but that's something he'll keep to himself and to his future grave)

>>12275987
The problem with these new "deep" comic book movies is that they start to explore themes but then just end with a cartoon power fantasy, and people start viewing the real world through this stupid comic book lense. I am so tired of hearing dudes debate on whether or not Thanos was "right." And then they think they are having profound thoughts

>>12282623
>Art is art BECAUSE it is the prop of capital
so there was no art before capitalism?
tell that to michelangelo & shakespeare
sheesh

>>12280523
Moore actually said even more and he has quite a point:
> It transpired that this was because I’d actually taken part in the interview a couple of very busy months earlier, on the afternoon when I’d given a half-dozen brief press interviews relating to the launch of Fashion Beast. The subject of comic-related-films (or film-related-comics) had understandably arisen and, when asked, I had ventured my honest opinion that I found something worrying about the fact that the superhero film audience was now almost entirely composed of adults, men and women in their thirties, forties and fifties who were eagerly lining up to watch characters and situations that had been expressly created to entertain the twelve year-old boys of fifty years ago. I not only feel this is a valid point, I also believe it to be fairly self-evident to any disinterested observer. To my mind, this embracing of what were unambiguously children’s characters at their mid-20th century inception seems to indicate a retreat from the admittedly overwhelming complexities of modern existence. It looks to me very much like a significant section of the public, having given up on attempting to understand the reality they are actually living in, have instead reasoned that they might at least be able to comprehend the sprawling, meaningless, but at-least-still-finite ‘universes’ presented by DC or Marvel Comics. I would also observe that it is, potentially, culturally catastrophic to have the ephemera of a previous century squatting possessively on the cultural stage and refusing to allow this surely unprecedented era to develop a culture of its own, relevant and sufficient to its times.These, anyway, were my thoughts on the subject, and I remember that Lance said he wanted to ask me a question on the issue during our interview later, in order to give me an opportunity to clarify my remarks, to which I agreed.
https://slovobooks.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/last-alan-moore-interview/

how could the human condition not pervade a medium created and celebrated by humans?

>>12276003
go on /tv/ for 10 seconds

>>12280523
Verhoeven's garbage is no better than capeshit.

>>12280523
thank you for including the Miyazaki quote so weebs have to be reminded the greatest talent to every create that artform hates them and would Thanos snap all of them out of existence were he ever capable of doing so

>>12283606
Miyazaki made the same shitty movie for thirty years then complains that anime isn't daring enough so who cares what he has to say about anything.

>>12275996
>how can I agree with him but not agree with him

>>12275987
>Thomas Mann
>Masereel uses an emotional, Expressionistic style to create a narrative replete with allegory, satire, and social criticism—a visual style he continued with throughout his career. He expresses a broad variety of emotions through understated, unexaggerated gestures. Most characters are given simple, passive expressions, which provides emphatic contrast with characters expressing more explicit emotion—love, despair, ecstasy. He considered Passionate Journey partly autobiographical, which he emphasized with a pair of self-portraits that open the book—in the first, Masereel sits at his desk with his woodcutting tools, and in the second appears the protagonist, dressed in identical fashion with the first. Literature scholar Martin S. Cohen wrote that it expressed themes that were to become universal in the wordless novel genre.

>>12283606
>greatest talent to every create that artform
Only normalfag wannabe art hoes think that anon

>>12275987
lmaoing at hordes of mad manchildren in the comments

>>12275987
The Iliad is basically capeshit desu

>>12277881
>But it is saying something that they are so popular.
My best guess is that people are fucking dumb

>>12279360
oh Norm, you haven't posted here in a while. do you still hold these opinions on Dostoevsky?

>medium wars
please perish all of you who unironically engage in this

>>12284977
Also pretty much all culture today is made for toddlers
Adults bring their toddlers to see the movies and buy them marvel toys afterwards
So since there is no culture for adults, adult culture has become toddler culture

Same in Japan with anime/manga really except the target age is like 14yo so it's more bearable

>>12281231
but he's right.

>is he /ourguy/?

No. Half of you cunts are moth-breathing, comic book reading, video game playing, yootoob consuming, capeshit watching, anime worshipping reprobates.

>>12281220
/co/ is exclusively thicc fanart at this point

>never read a comic book before

So why does his opinion matter in the slightest?

>>12285015
how clean is your room

>>12285025
Post 2016 /lit/ is beyond repair.

>comment section

>>12283232
these morons think capitalism has always existed, don't even bother

lets be honest, the current obsession with comic book movies is profoundly embarrassing and people will look back on this time and see us a bunch of man-children.it's like we're forever trapped in adolescence

>>12283232
would shakespeare have written his plays without financial compensation? if not than his point still stands. even in pre-capitalist times artists were still producing art largely for some kind of monetary gain

bump

>>12285097
Monetary value is not intrinsically capitalist you absolute retard

>>12275996
t.b.h.

>>12275996
>Based opinion
Shit opinion too.
A lot of comic books are schlock, like a lot of writing in general, but there's plenty of solid stuff there too.
Most people I know consider Maus to be a work of art and a great piece of literature.

>>12286606
so under socialism you think people would still get the same kind of monetary compensation for their work?

>>12286606
But having such a thing as monetary value is only useful in a capitalist society where individuals most assign a single comparable value to objects by which their value and the labor to produce them is able to be compared to each other

>>12287440
socialism?
yes, of course
full blown communism?
as long as it doesn't get in the way yeah, but keeping a food supply would take precedence.
idealistic young marx post scarcity heaven?
No, they wouldn't need it. Their work would be exchanged for apreciation and fame but no one would be a millionaire for getting a movie adaptation.

>>12280523
>SW is bad/for Children
Star Wars is for 1950s sci-fi And music nerds

Where did the operas go?
They went into space
SW is our Ring cycle

The super hero idea is based but no one has truly captured what it means.

>>12287452
nah, feudal societies had it too

>>12287472
What does it mean?

>>12278695
to be or not to be
I just said a profound statement and I'm a fucking retard.

>>12276003
They actually do. Have you ever heard one of these retards talk about superman? It's like they're talking about Jesus. They act like comic books are 20th century epics that shocked culture across the world.

>>12287666
Makes sense, Jesus has about the same amount of depth in his character as Superman

>>12275987
Wasnt that a strawman?

>>12287744
Jesus wept.