/lit/ - Literature

>>12265321
Space is literally the most stupid thing there is

he finally get into anarcho-communism

>>12265321
It is fair to assume that humanity cannot organize itself so that it can prevent climatic catastrophes as long as it is fragmented in national states/identities. I haven't read the article btw

>>12265321
He comes to almost precisely the wrong conclusion, what is needed is more authority, not less. You have a bunch of mercantile types running around shitting the place up and the solution is apparently... anarchy and abolishing nation states. What the fuck?

>>12265416
imagine being this stupid lol

Nation-states are a polite fiction today anyway. You are a client of either Washington, Beijing, or Moscow at the end of the day. The aforementioned parties are unlikely to go to war with one another. If you are concerned about climate change you should probably be thinking about how to get the Chinese to reduce their emissions.

>>12265321
Aristocratic city states when?

>>12265321
“Be like water my friend” Bruce Lee

>>12265416
“The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more we will slip through your fingers”

>>12265473
Imagine only being able to express yourself with pop culture references.

>>12265479
Week-Gar on my mind atm for some reason. Memes and all.
And guess where we are

>>12265501
*Wreck gar
Stupid autocorrect

>>12265321
>>12265416

Zizek means International Marxism-Leninism.

Nation-State singular as opposed to plural

>>12265501

>>12265510
It was bad enough in One Country...

>>12265510
He doesn’t seem to be saying that.
Doesn’t matter. Down with the nation state

>>12265525
It's the kind of philosophy that only works when everyone's agreed to follow it. It's kind of like how you don't need law enforcement once everyone just agrees to follow the law and not commit crimes.

>>12265529
I'd tell you to go back to the kitchen but you probably don't even have a real kitchen in your tiny bachelor's flat. You probably have a water cooker for your Ramen and a shared toilet with the other parties on the floor.

>>12265547
>It's the kind of philosophy that only works when everyone's agreed to follow it. It's kind of like how you don't need law enforcement once everyone just agrees to follow the law and not commit crimes.
Right, there's no role for the State in promoting these kind of behaviors whatsoever, it just happens one day and we all decide to be nice to each other.

>>12265554
Go drown yourself in your daddy’s pool, posh boy

>>12265547
why do you choose to strawman Marx so openly and confidently?

>>12265521
Not quite. Don’t feel so bad about yourself

>>12265321
>guys he's attacking our self-identified special club! time to get irrationally upset!

>>12265581
Because your theory has to be applied successfully at least once and/or not result in the deaths of millions of people for me to take you seriously.

>>12265600
>dood the black book of communism, CIA and Nazi sources are all perfectly legitimate. i am a free thinker duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U

>>12265613
Holy shit a Bolshevik made a video talking about an article written by a literally-who, I sure am BTFO. Frankly, I'm offended you think so little of me that A) you think I trust the CIA and B) you assume I'm a Nazi because I don't believe totalitarian government propaganda.

I said and/or faggot. The Soviet Union that was totally fine and not completely bumble-fucked collapsed in on itself at least a few years ago. But hey, I'm sure literally every history book ever written doesn't compare to your commie discord servers, /pol/ threads, and ugly ass HTML blogs you fucking parasite.

>>12265653
Most of the original "Soviet Union did Katyn and killed 50 kajillion people" primary sources are literally the US/ CIA and Nazis.

>>12265668
[Citation Needed] ironically

>>12265672
Watch the video. He mentions specific sources that are usually cited that were hardcore anti-communists from the US and Germany.

>>12265682
God dude I'm really not going to sit through 20 minutes of some 16 year old going through a Rage Against The Machine phase talk about how the radical totalitarian government that achieved power by murdering the Romanov family were actually totally the good guys. Can't you guys just be commie scum without also defending every one of you cock-gobbling-hobgoblins that was ever born? Does Papa Stalin mean that much to you?

I thought he was supposed to be NazBol?

>>12265792
that's something ancoms and libs say

>>12265792
it's just a shrewed meme to lure the daftest of polacks into communism.

>>12265792
no he is gang weed
he knows we live in what he coined as "society"

>>12265321
>Recent scientific reports make it clear that our global food system is broken: ... billions are either underfed or overweight, and our food production is driving the planet towards climate catastrophe. To provide an environmentally-friendly diet for all of us will require a radical transformation of the system.

Billions are underfed because of sending aid to Africa and other 3rd world shitholes, who can't sustain themselves and just keep multiplying.
If wealthy nations kept to themselves there would be much fewer people (in absolute numbers) starving.
The "system" that caused this is exactly the type of globalist crap that he advocates.

derrida made me value the nation state citing schmitt in beast and the sovereign

>>12265416
He is not advocating any kind of libertarianism, only international government entities. Not necessarily authoritarian ones without checks and balances or democracy (he advocated in another very recent article for direct democracy as a worthwhile cause to push for to reveal and exploit the contradictions of neoliberalism and capitalism), but one that can come to more efficient solutions about things like climate change and migration crises. Zizek is very much a pragmatist, he just believes that the most actually practical measures often seem like the most unrealistic.

>>12266450
Capitalism itself does this as well with the concepts of infinite growth and consumerism, did anyone actually think that people in Alaska having 24/7/365 access to unlimited Oranges would be a viable idea?
Much less all the other perishable food that goes to waste simply to be available to stoners at 2am at Walmart on every continent?


Feudalism wasn't improved upon with the Consumerist notion of Capital.

>>12266477
I tried to tell them Zizek means one World Authority.

>>12265416
>being that much of a brainlet

sad

>>12265321
Zizek is a globalist, but if you check how nation state were created, nation state were nothing more than globalism-lite

so if you are a true nationalist, you should be a globalist at this point, and if you are a localist or traditionalist of any type you should know that nationalism is a failed project destined to lead into globalism

based marxists trying to replace the proletariat with global warming, i wish them luck

>So yes, we are in a deep mess: there is no simple “democratic” solution here. The idea that people themselves (not just governments and corporations) should decide sounds deep, but it begs an important question: even if their comprehension is not distorted by corporate interests, what qualifies them to pass a judgment in such a delicate matter?
he should just go NRx desu

>>12266712
this is a good post even if globalist is sort of a meme term. not being a "globalist" at this point is just silly. we're all irreversibly connected now, primarily economically and in terms of the consequences of industry on the environemtn, for better or for worse, so let's try and make sure it's for better and not for worse. people who think global politics means "importing poor brown people to displace my family" dont understand how operative the nation-state as a political entity is in fostering both refugee crises and half assed refugee "solutions" that only mean importing cheap workers and ethnic tension. if there were well organized international responses to refugees and economic migrants, they could be resettled properly without a bidding war between neoliberals like Merkel and Macron

>>12265321
zizek doesn't like the people, doesn't like the nations, and doesn't like capitalist corporations

but it sounds to me like all he wants is a global mega-corporation that would replace all the actors above and answer to no-one except the elite that controls it """for the good of all""", with no economic checks and balances of any type, just pure totalitarian global domination

makes you think why is he considered anti-establishment at all

>>12265345
>he finally get into anarcho-communism
except without the anarcho- part, he is talking about a global totalitarian entity that answers only to itself

>>12265470

>>12265547
>It's the kind of philosophy that only works when everyone's agreed to follow it.
isn't that applicable to libertarianism too?

>>12266477
>Not necessarily authoritarian ones without checks and balances or democracy
you are deluded if you think Zizek is talking about anything democratic, you think Zizek has any interest in letting a global chinese voting block or a global indian voting block decide what direction should the world take? not a chance

Zizek is talking about a global elite that have "the right opinions"™ deciding for the masses what's best for them

>newstatesman.com
>publishes anti state article
makes you think

>>12266733
>primarily connected by the weakest of connections: money
>ignores ethnic or cultural enmity/mistrust
>blames the nation state for refugee crisis when it is primarily stirred up by a bunch of transnational borderless pro-globalist entities (ngos, capital, networks of academics/media, deep state alliances among west, arab, and israel)

jesus this is such a bugman reddit post, bet you have a tshirt that has "refugees welcome" on it like the status obsessed sociopath you are

>>12266770
>Zizek is talking about a global elite that have "the right opinions"™ deciding for the masses what's best for them

This. It's business as usual as the chattering classes that wreck shit set themselves up to rule again. Most of the liberals and leftists in this thread see themselves as little academics and journalists that joined the student model UN at college, and think they'll play on the big team one day and get to boss around anyone that dares speak out against them.

Isn't Zizek a Stalinisme the most part? What he means is pretty obvious.

>>12266920
i baffles me that people can read an article like this and not see it as a transparent push for a totalitarian global state, what else could it be? Zizek is practically spelling it out

i think the problem is that Zizek is a very friendly guy personally, so people just assume that his politics are also "friendly", doesn't matter what he actually says

>>12266947
College students see his Stalin portrait hanging in his office in videos and probably think it's just ironic since everything they do has a layer of irony.

>>12266450
Malthusianism is the most brainlet ideology there is

>>12266712
Yeah and your local village is globalism-lite-lite, right?
No, some borders simply make more sense than others. We're nowhere near ready to have a "global community" functioning in any reasonably democratic way. Even most nation states are struggling with this. We need more borders, smaller countries.

Also
>If we really care for the fate of the people who compose our nation, our motto should be: America last, China last, Russia last…
This is stupid. It's certainly possible to support environmental causes out of purely selfish interests.
The problem is that many people (Žižek including, it seems) can only think in terms of short-term material wealth, while there are many other factors which affect the quality of life.

>>12267273
Democracy can't ever work.

It's odd you're pushing for Neoreactionary ideas like more borders and smaller states, while complaining about authority.

You're on the side of Monarchy.

If Zizek wants a singular monarchy, that's only modestly different to you

>>12267317
Not really. I might share this concept of smaller states, but I do want democracy.
I'm even in favor of international institutions, similar to the EU. But they should not replace the smaller states.
The EU isn't even that bad, at least in principle. But the UN and its "laws" is a step too far, because the differences among countries on a world scale are just too big.

>>12266748
>zizek doesn't like the people, doesn't like the nations, and doesn't like capitalist corporations
Based.

Is he one of these commie cucks that hates whites (male ones at least) and loves niggers, jews and arabs?

>>12267426
He's one of these people that are a meme in the country they're from but enjoy cult status among western edgelords that can't resist a wacky eastern guru with a funny accent. Dugin comes to mind also.

i hope one day Moldbug debate this stupid mong, i imagine zizek will kneel after him when he realized how stupid he was

zizek is a puppet of globalist, he lacks balls to oppose the system

>>12265321
>Let's turn our nation-states into federations of municipal anarcho-syndicalism communes
dude lmao

>>12267426
>implying anyone other than spooked reactionaries have any serious opinions on "whiteness"

the nation-state is the product of capitalism and modernity

>>12266477
>Zizek is very much a pragmatist.
Doubt.

>>12267812
brainlet post^

Zizzy and I are on the same wavelength much of the time. So without reading the article let me explain it to you.

What you might call over-nationalism is a bad thing. It leads to international posturing and escalation through a symmetrical behavior mode: everyone enters the same standoffish position that leads to greater mutual antagonism and competition. While that can lead to productive byproducts, it can also lead to a hot or cold war, both of which take shots and weaken the foundations of the world order.

Sometimes weakening the world order in order to change it to advance your interests is pragmatic, and the right thing to do if the world order is expressing injustice and your cause is just. It's not a smart thing to do, however, if what comes next is beyond your control and you weakened the foundations so your enemies take advantage of the opening in a way you didn't expect. Or it gets you killed, ruins your business, or leads to a nuclear fallout killing the vast majority of the world's population and then everyone outright as the earth becomes subject to uninhabitable radiation.

If only white people existed, I would agree completely.

cont from my last post:

In the controversial case of China versus USA, Trump is not wrong to hit back at China. It's true that China has behaved scummy and has stolen vast sums of highly valuable intellectual properties from many American corporations, and has been undermining American interests in the digital space with extreme prejudice.

Obama just sat and watched it happen. Trump is doing something about it. That's rational nationalism. The other stuff he does, and his undisciplined manner of speaking, probably does more objective harm than good. You can shoot off buckshot and expect some of the pellets to hit the target, but if you're not aiming...

Every nation is by necessity a multi-sided phenomenon, and that' why whataboutism fails so miserably to encapsulate any binary contest between two nations. The context internally between the two contestants becomes its own separate engagement apart from the overall context of those nation's global relationships.

So if people say well, America does some fucked up shit too, that doesn't matter. Everybody does bad things, there isn't a single country that's never done anything bad- except for maybe Greenland, but that's because 20,000 odd people live there-because countries are composed of people and people do bad things.

i think "identity" needs to be erased as a concept entirely. only then will we have peace.

prove me wrong.

What the fuck is this new buzzword “whataboutism”? The concept literally sounds like it was cooked up in a PR boardroom and shilled all over social media. Anybody know where it came from?

The whole concept is to literally tell someone they’re using “whataboutism” to dismiss legitimate criticism. I can’t imagibe a more dishonest way to argue. Holy hell we’re hitting peak autism.

>>12268117
it hit peak meme when Trump said there were bad people on both sides

>>12268125
The first person I saw using it was Franchesca Ramsey LMFAO

my friend told me he saw some other commentator saying it was a Russian style form of rhetoric/propaganda. RUSSIA DADDI IM SCURRED

>>12268117
>The concept literally sounds like it was cooked up in a PR boardroom and shilled all over social media.

you're close, it's CIA/state department propaganda that basically boils down to stomping your feet and saying "i CAN throw stones in this glass house and you can't stop me"

>>12268135
I’m inclined to believe you, where did you learn of this though?

>>12265321
Absolutely correct. The nation is an anachronism, an archaic and outdated method of organization. It will NOT see us through the coming catastrophe and the only people will think it will constitute the new foolish surge of white nationalists in Europe and America.

>>12266965
It is somewhat ironic. It is obvious that Zizek has no problem with heavy, even violent authoritarianism, yet he does not seem to think much of Stalin himself as a potential authoritarian leader (he routinely mocks his texts and policies, and assumes quite often that Soviet bureaucratic totalitarianism is one of the worst case scenarios).
Regardless, if being authoritarian were to be enough for him to appreciate a dictator, we might as well call him both a Stalinist and a Tsarist.

>>12268117
>>12268125
>>12268131
>>12268135

it comes from the reddit, chill out

>>12268171
Yeah I’m sure mega corporations have never hired people to post things on Reddit. They wouldn’t do that they good bois.

>Ditch the idea of the nation state
>We still only concentrate on certain areas of the world just not labeling it a "nation"

Woah

>>12266757
What? Is he retarded?

>>12265416
The replies to you are retarded. He wants more EU style stuff, as if the EU isn’t completely under control of the worldwide bourgeois philistine mercantile class

>>12265321
why would anyone take advice from this pseud boomer

>>12266477
Zizek just ends up at neoliberal platitude

>>12265461
redpilled. i would say washington is more california's client state but you have the basic idea

>>12266965
he said it was just to piss people off literally in his most popular video, that vice documentary

>>12268084
>the problems are all in your head, just be positive bro all that shit is just an ideal
Fuck off bourgeois scum

>>12265321
might work if all jews, blacks and arabs are genocided first

How will globalism actually work? How can you be sure there just wont be balkanization and splintering autoacracy. MASSIVE GLOBAL ARMY BOIIII? This just sounds like crypto-tankie garbage

>>12268084
>identity needs to be erased
>we

>>12268084

>>12268334
Kys

>>12268354
It’s already working

>>12268381
>it’s already working
>this is what bourgeoistards actually believe

>>12268354
globalism is already essentially operative vis a vis pax americana. the us and china compose the global governing committee and their agreements and conflicts set the world order. russia, saudis, india &c have a seat at the committee table but only so much leverage

>>12265547
who are these?

>>12268398
grey - agorism
cyan - individualist anarchism
teal - egoism

the two below are not really outside the chart whoever made the pic is just feeling smug about their belief system

>>12268390
Someone listened to the dead Kennedys in junior high.

LOOK OUT GUYS

>>12268479
>dead kennedys

why are boomers posting here? fuck off back to 4chan.org/pol/

>>12268499
KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL THE POOR

>>12265501
You are the most cringeworthy retard I have ever encountered.

>>12267273
>Yeah and your local village is globalism-lite-lite, right?
your local village wasn't created through social engineering, your nation was

>>12268594
We just gotta crank up the social engineering to 11 for globalism then

>>12266765
>isn't that applicable to libertarianism too?
It's literally the exact opposite.

>>12268555
KILLIN KILLIN KILLIN KILLIN KILLIN THE POOR

>>12268287
Yes. We've been saying this for years.

>>12268287
How is that retarded?

>>12265461
The reason why U.S., China, and Russia aren't taking drastic steps is precisely because of Westphalian notions of neorealism. It is the state-centric attitude that prevents world society from taking the measures that are deemed appropriate to turn the ecological tide.

Not that I think us humans have a drastic impact on climate, but w/e. Here in the Netherlands we've already pushed a law that will require severe sacrifices from the populace in exchange for nothing since climate is a global, not a national affair.

>>12265869
I believe you mean "schoschiety"

>>12268084
>I
>we
>identity must be erased

oke there buddy

>>12265321
Nation states are just spooks. It's nice to have some kind of common identity but you can't pretend it's some kind of metaphysical being

>>12265416
You can have authority without nation states

>>12268117
It's called tu quoquo by those more cultivated.

>>12268354
Either through dictatorship, ideology, or religion. See the multiethnic empires of Eastern Europe for example. Ottoman Empire, Habsburg Empire, Russian Empire, etc.

>>12265509
retard phone poster

>>12268992
how is it the opposite? the NAP is literally something everybody has to agree for it to work, and NAP absolutism is the most extreme form of libertarianism

liberatarianism is the least pragmatic political theory, it tells you how everything would work if everybody respected property rights, it says nothing about how to engineer a society where everybody respects property rights

>>12269596
but globalism is not any less spooky than nationalism, globalism is an even less tenable kind of identity and organizational unit

>>12268573
>He says while wanting out in a meme factory
First I’m told the left can’t meme, then I’m told memes are cringe. Hilarious.

>>12270336
*Hanging out.

>>12268380
>
is that really communism though?

>>12270267
This is so stupid I had to re-read it several times because I genuinely thought nobody could misunderstand any concept, let alone one as simple as the NAP, this fucking hard. The NAP is the rule saying you're allowed to use force against people that do not respect liberty or property rights, and you think the NAP does not account for people who do not respect liberty or property rights?

>>12265698
Do not engage with tankies.

>>12266483
Having resources readily available at all times and in all places is a hallmark of effective resource allocation. Standing in a breadline at GUM and waiting a decade for a Lada that will break down in a month is not.

>>12267317
>>12267374
You're both wrong. Clearly mercantile republics are the states which have the greatest product of liberty*stability.

>>12267812
That's not how you spell "Congress of Vienna."

>>12270267
The NAP is a negative proposition. At least attack it with proper premises.

>>12265321
"Only a post-ironic, self-sacrificing non-God can save us. And even then He will not be post-ideologically ideological enough!"
Behold! Pop-Heidegger with no interest in being!

>>12266450
>doesn't realise that wealthy nations are wealthy precisely because of this post-national serfdom

>>12266712
>IT IS NOT GLOBALIST ENOUGH!
>IT IS NOT POST-NATIONALIST ENOUGH!
>IT IS NOT POST-CONTINENTAL ENOUGH!
>IT IS NOT INTERGALACTIC ENOUGH!
>IT IS NOT VIRTUALLY UNIVERSAL ENOUGH!
>WHO WILL AYYLMAOs THE AYYLMAOs IF THE POST-FIRMAMENT REFUSES TO STEP OUT OF ITS PURE IDEOLOGY!
Who National Post-Accelerationist here?

>>12269540
The Chinese aren't going to stop their rise to power for environmental reasons, no matter what sort of nonsense about "muh global community and common humanity" is thrown at them by Western countries. They don't care.

>It is the state-centric attitude that prevents world society from taking the measures that are deemed appropriate to turn the ecological tide.
Right, so you need a global dictatorship that can forcibly deindustrialize major countries or find a way to get nuclear power working. No power is going to willingly handicap itself under a divided power system. One of China or the US must rule the world and forcibly deindustrialize the planet here, there is no other option.

>>12268325
Power was transferred from Massachusetts to California starting in the 60s or so.

>>12271709
They want to do the first thing but plaster meme panels and turbines everywhere. The future Ecological friendly world is ugly and probably inefficient

>>12271709
The problem is that your solution is worse than the disease.
Has it crossed your mind that if the only possible future for humanity is to live in a iron handed globohomo hypertyranny then perhaps no future at all is preferable?
And that's just taking your solution seriously as though it could actually be implemented, which it couldn't.
You can't artificially roll back technology. And global dictatorships are bound to fail almost by definition. There is no final revolution.

>>12271743
They just want to implement Communism through the backdoor, these "global frameworks" are not meant to actually work. If climate change were in fact a world-wrecking phenomenon, and nuclear energy represented a potential solution that wouldn't imply a severe downgrade in living standards, why wasn't roughly 100x more money funneled into it over the past 50 years? Oh wait, left-wing environmental groups got paid by oilmen to protest nuclear energy... then complained about the same oilmen sponsoring anti-AGW activism. What a joke.

>>12271754
Globohomo is caused by a lack of dictatorship.

(((Zizek)))

>>12271792
>Globohomo is caused by a lack of dictatorship.
Well, my understanding of human nature leads me to believe that an elite board of totally unaccountable people with unchallenged power and unilateral access to all post-industrial technology will be degenerate as possible.
You seem to think we'll all be living virtuous wholesome peasant lives under the watchful eye of a wise father figure. I could go Freudian here and say that your proposal, being so out of the realm of reality as it is, only serves to shed some light on your desires in your own personal life.

>>12271860
No, the "board" is the problem, you need one (1) global dictator. Gays, transpersons, etc. were first promoted by Progressive groups seeking to gain power by utilizing them as protected classes and destroy society insofar as it presented a threat to profit. Leftward movement continues because under democratic republics/board-based governance/Communism, power can never truly be stabilized, so ideological innovations will continue. Under an actual global dictator, structure at the global level can be acknowledged/created in such a way as to avert this sort of thing. The problem is to get it actually implemented.

Imagine if one day, instead of selling overpriced military garbage, Uncle Sam simply declared that it would be taxing all its vassals at 1-2% and requesting the assistance of each vassals' best scientists for a global nuclear science research initiative. Nice and simple. But that would be tyranny, of course, can't have that. That's not a rules-based liberal order among the International Community.

>>12271892
>tfw ur arguing for what’s Jesus will be when he returns
Welcome to the Kingdom of Heaven, friend.

>>12268117
It is what people too stupid to know the tu quo que fallacy say. They also don’t apply it accurately as to point out that one group is indeed doing what they decry in another is extremely legit observation.

Fuck c*mmies

Fuck this zigzag dude

>>12269596
>you can't pretend it's some kind of metaphysical being
Not only you can, you have to. Otherwise it doesn't work and your "community" starts falling apart.
Of course, it's difficult to do this when you have an ethnically mixed nation, that's why the US is deteriorating.

>>12271449
Increasing African population is an absolute net negative in the long term. Actually, increasing population in general is a net negative, it's just more so with countries that are growing thanks to gibs.

>>12271413
>no interest in being
Zizek is one of the leading ontologists

I agree that the nation state is becoming less relevant if it's not 1 billion people or more. But Brexit must still happen because the UK is special and must preserve its culture. With the USA becoming just another south American country and Canada, Australia, and new Zealand becoming colonised, the UK will be the only Anglo country left within 50 years. In other words, it is the only conscious country, in a world of NPCs.

>>12272993

>>12273009
Stop this at once

>>12272993
I really don't see the nation-state becoming less relevant. Quite the opposite really, and you can tell by the weakened positions of the UNSC and the EU. Seriously, the nation-state is very much alive.
The only thing is is that the nation part of the nation-state will take a serious hit due to demographic changes. It will become more state-like and less nation-state in general. This could have severe consequences for democracies and the legitimate sovereign.

>>12270912
>The NAP is the rule saying you're allowed to use force against people that do not respect liberty or property rights, and you think the NAP does not account for people who do not respect liberty or property rights?
that's just a personal rule if only people who believe in it are going to follow it, it's not politics, it's personal philosophy. how can you miss this? the golden rule is not politics either
>>12271109
it's still politically meaningless unless you find a political implementation for people to have a reason to follow it that doesn't involve everybody believing in it in the first place, or everybody getting magically convinced

>>12271792
>They just want to implement Communism through the backdoor
basically the left has no use for the proletariat anymore and is trying to replace it with global warming

>>12273009
did the first group with more indians win?

>>12273031
i don't see any truly united nation states, most young elites have been successfully snatched and re-programmed by globalism, you may have a winning national voting block, but not sure what would it take to create a credible nation with a clear direction and a new elite that propels it

>>12273031
I think the same fragmentation that may doom the EU and UN (SC??) is wrecking havoc at the national level, i would need to be convinced that a unifying force has any chance at victory at this point, and not just further dissolution taking hold everywhere

>>12273270
I only see British people. This isn't 4chan, racism isn't cool here.

>>12273258
woah broo woke af

why bother giving this hack a platform, he's a sheltered fool that preaches false promises of a utopia that will only end up bringing a wave of marxism that will destroy everything these nations he wants to get rid of have been working on for centuries

I hate to throw around buzzwords but this dude is a fucking commie and anyone who legitimizes him is as delusional as he is

>>12273340
brooo woke af

>>12273344

>>12269540
Reading of the Dutch sacrifice has inspired me

>>12265321
If we collapse now, we'll never make it off the planet.

>>12273379
It's not a sacrifice we're willing to make. This might be the straw that broke the camel's back, the camel's back being the liberal party VVD that has basically runned this country for the past decade. I am really curious how the electorate will react to these changes. There are strong parties beside the PVV such as the FvD who might profit a lot from this fallout.

>>12273382
there's nothing new in space, except more space

>>12273392
can you yellow jacket like the french or are the dutch too german for that?

>>12273397
The Dutch are level-headed people who don't have a long history and culture of protesting or rioting. There has been a gillet-jaunes type protest, but nothing anywhere close to what we've seen in Paris (there were about 300 protestors in Rotterdam).

The only actual solid way to stop our destruction of the planet is a complete global collapse and the resulting death of most of the human species arising from the current order. Follow this with the complete collapse of unsustainable intensive agriculture across the globe and international trade and travel. After years of turmoil and the returned ignorance of industry and agriculture following the most you can hope for is a situation like the original Planet of the Apes, because other than all that we'll kill the planet through desertification and the ice will melt regardless of if we have a global Stalinist dictatorship forcing us to recycle and drive electric in our hive city communes or whatever this fat retard envisions.

What would this guy know about what we need to survive on this planet? He spent all his life in academia.

>>12273505
that's why he is asking for absolute global power for academics, as they know what's better for us, it makes sense if you think about it

>>12267426
A classic zizekian joke
>How does a Montenegrin man have sex?
>He digs a hole in the ground, puts his penis in, and waits for an earthquake.

>>12273489
>muh noble planet

>>12273675
Are you trying to say something retard

>>12273489
Posadist please

>>12273251
>The law is completely separate from politics
Nigga you dumb

>>12274322
>the law
the law is not the law if you have no plan and structure to implement it beyond "everyone will just magically follow it", which was the point that started this conversation

>>12274383
>The NAP says you can shoot people who violate the NAP
>HOW ARE WE GONNA GET PEOPLE NOT TO VIOLATE THE NAP??????
How can you be this genuinely retarded?

>>12274398
what if i have the gun and you don't, and only you believe in the NAP

The people who advocate for the abolishing of the nation state really seem to me to not understand what they really are asking for.

The smug and glib condescending view that it is simply a socially constructed fiction that is worth removing simply to save the environment is a pretty insane position to have; I would literally say the same about laws, human rights, democracy, women's rights, trans-rights, anti-racism and worker's rights ad infinitum.

Every single one of these concepts are socially constructed as well, but for some reason leftists think that I'm just going to focus on what they themselves want to deconstruct, and not everything else.

The fact is that the more that people like Zizek argue for some kind of extreme politics the more they tilt the world towards war, because millions of people still believe in the "fiction" of nationhood and tie a lot of their identity to it, like it or not.

I think middle and upper middle class socialists/intersectionalists, should be very careful what kind of bourgeois propaganda they push upon the populace, they might retaliate even harder than voting for right-wing populist.

>>12274412
Why wouldn't I have a gun? I have many.

>>12274412
bro you know you can call the police and shit

>>12274433
if we don't abandon the nation state it's over for mankind, there's too many endgame scenarios on the table now

>>12265473

Nice 2 have you back

>>12274459
name them then, cuz the only endgame scenario i see is global warming and we're doing an ok job of addressing that even with nation states

>>12273489
the only hope for the ecosystem is the replacement of fossil fuels with nuclear power. apocalyptic destruction of humanity would be worse for the biosphere and humans are the only thing making earth worthwhile anyway.

>>12274459
Globalism isnt fixing those things if anything this globalism lite project has made most these issues worse, life will still be expensive, rich will still own everything, africa will continue ro overpopulate, people will trust politicians less and less, climate change will still happen

>>12274459
>if we don't abandon the nation state it's over for mankind

This seems extremely apocalyptic.

Are you willing to have a war to destroy the concept of the nation state?

Because that's almost guaranteed to happen.

>>12265321
Wouldn't big corporations keep on fucking up the planet even if the nation state was removed. Maybe the only thing that could save us would be a super repressive totalitarian government that could enforce a sustainable ecological policy.

>>12274503
you can have a middle ground where the state is less than totalitarian but still strong enough to regulate bad actors.
You could say that we don't need 15 brands of toothpaste and have abusive legislation against competition in fields that are not needed, companies won't move away from the US and loose 500mil clients just because they have to make useful products.
There is no need to be repressive if your politics benefit the masses.

>>12274503
>Maybe the only thing that could save us would be a super repressive totalitarian government that could enforce a sustainable ecological policy.

Which is, what I suspect, what some of these people want.

>>12274468
not nuclear war? what about bioengineering? refugee/immigration crisis are inevitable under nation states which feedsback into the whole thing (and global warming suggests several hypothetical human-ending scenarios, with more popping up every year as shit gets worse)
>>12274470
maybe we wont die horribly though
>>12274473
no, it will come out of total desperation mid-collapse, hopefully just soon enough to let us live

>>12274503
>ECOFASCISM

BASED AF, too bad the lefty types will realize this and back off real quick because it has the big nono word

>>12274469
>apocalyptic destruction of humanity would be worse for the biosphere

>>12274524
>Nuclear War
Likeley to never happen
>Bioengineering
Going to be needed
>Refugees
Bruh this will stay as bad as it is instead of refugees going from country A to country B it will just be some dumb shit like Quadrant A to B (aka the west)

>>12274524
we've been managing the prospect of nuclear war for over 70 years with the existing framework, and i would argue that a globalist system would be far worse than a nation-state system that leads to refugee crises. if the globalist government collapses, where is there to flee to?
admittedly i don't know too much about bioengineering but i don't see how that's somehow an "endgame scenario"

>>12274516
>>12274529
totalitarianism isn't worth saving the planet. the unabomber was right.

>>12274548
you have no idea how many times we almost came to nuclear war then. some low level russian soldier in Cuba saved the whole world from a false positive but no one talks about that. globalism is the only way to regulate population flows otherwise it's up to whatever indiviual country they end up in. if the "global state" collapses there is no where to flee to, doesn't that mean theres no refugees? honestly though if shit collapses we are in the same position we are now

>>12265321
He's simply wrong. What he's basically asking for is a world dominated by a small clique of financial elites--exactly as it is today--but without even the mechanism for individual ethnic groups to meaningfully resist the tyranny of that apparatus. I know part of the a-priori assumption of Communists is that those groups only exist because of the State, but that's empirically wrong, the only meaningful resistance to finance ever has been through the medium of the State.

The Nation-State is not a bad thing, it allows different countries to conduct different governmental experiments simultaneously in relative isolation from each other. If one system works better than others, then it will come to command the next epoch of national structure.

The idea that the solution to our problems of today is to just try International Communism again is asinine. You would have to be drunk or high, or both, to come to such a concl-

Oh, right. It's Zizek.

>>12274433
the popularity of the nation state will naturally erode when more and more people come to the realization that their own nation doesn't represent them or their interests. if the people won't go to war against the shit eating politicians robbing them blind for global corporate interests, then they certainly won't go to war for the sake of protecting their national identity - the very existence of such an identity would be tenuous at that point anyway.

>>12274579
no i am in fact aware of how close we were during the cuban missile crisis, but i would still say it was managed (even by a low-ranked russian soldier), especially nowadays. you're right about population flows but by your logic, in the future the countries with the most lax population flow laws will fail. if countries need to adopt these policies they will, with no ifs, ands or buts.
yeah thats the point, there's no refugees, but that's even worse because a) there's no solace for those affected by the failing government and b) everybody has to start over. we wouldn't be in the same position, we'd be a LOT worse off

>>12274699
anon, we almost blew ourselves into apocalypse several times already and we haven't even had the technology for a century yet. you are quite the optimist.
>in the future the countries with the most lax population flow laws will fail. if countries need to adopt these policies they will
this doesn't solve a refugee crisis in the slightest (see: the world).
>everybody has to start over
why? why wouldn't it just fracture like every other empire did when it fell? I don't believe for a second that every single person would be so fucked that the world couldn't just default back to a nation state approach (you got very pessimistic by the end there...)

>>12274720
I like your view on long term nuclear war, but you are jumping to short term when thinking of empires.
Chances are the US will last a millenia and be something absurdely different by the time it breaks appart.

>>12274751
I guess the way I see it is that we have diagnosed the terminal conclusions of the nation state, and not only that we are now starting to deal with those conclusions. If we want a good shot at having another millenia of humans on earth something drastic will need to be attempted. to be totally honest though I think we don't have much of a chance of getting there, I don't have a very long term prediction on humans.

>>12274696
>if the people won't go to war against the shit eating politicians robbing them blind for global corporate interests, then they certainly won't go to war for the sake of protecting their national identity - the very existence of such an identity would be tenuous at that point anyway.

And yet I'm supposed to believe that people care about the environment. If this is the cynical worldview you have, then why don't you think that the people who advocate for extreme environmental measures aren't precisely as self-interested and are "robbing them blind for global corporate interests"?

The entire premise of environmentalism on the surface seems like anti-capitalist, and yet the entire system of carbon taxes and quotas is a complete racket.

>>12274694
You are putting words in his mouth. That's not what he's saying.

Nations are a necessary pragmatic construct. Nobody knows how to organize the world without the basic organizing principle of a nation state. Attempts in the USSR to abolish it simply translated into an imperialistic nation state seeking to conquer as much as the world as possible so that it became one state, rather than a stateless socialist utopia.

Nationalism enforces its own logic through the conflicts and hostilities that border various nations and reproduce a cordoned off mindset. Nations are a form of information processing based on grouping entities and assets within a boundary and outside of it.

Zizek is not saying to forget nationalism, he's saying there are bigger universal threats (eco-annihilation) that affect everybody. He's saying, look, stop fucking with each other China, Russia, and the USA, the alien space invader force is amassing outside of our system space.

>>12275097
Of course the thing about climate change is that not everybody will suffer from it, it's more about introducing more unpredictability into the environment rather than rendering pure annihilation of the species.

The northern hemisphere could benefit tremendously from climate change helped along with a bit of physiocratic engineering. Greenland and Canada could become more lush, new cities could form in Russia, new shipping lanes and other lucrative business opportunities will appear. China, however, could be devastated.

The equatorial world however will be in hell, and that aggression will eventually be channeled north and south toward the poles. Of course, most of the the world's military power is concentrated on along northern latitudes, so it could be that the south is beaten back by the north. Contrarily, a changing landscape in the north would require a growing population to fill it, and reproductive rates near the equator are massively higher than nearer to the poles.

Even then, people often conflate climate change with ecocide. A polluted and destroyed ecosystem can reach a tipping point in which all life on earth at that point collapses. There was a time millennia ago when the introduction of a certain microbe produced too much nitrogen in the atmosphere and killed everything that couldn't adapt to it very rapidly on a geological timescale.

Humans, from the God's eye view, are just advanced microbes in that respect.

>>12275140
>most major cities are underwater
>2-4 billion refugees
>tremendous benefit results

>>12275164
Pure apocalypticism.

Funny how science is useful only when it suits the delusions of the utopian socialist.

I hate that most people focus on the fucking meme shit like taxing gas or whatever, isn't most green house pollution from like 6 megacorps or some shit? We don't really have to worry about getting everyone a meme electric car rn desu

>>12275176
you mean funny how science is irrationally resisted if it presents evidence which disagrees with the ruling ideology/mode of production? it's called false consciousness anon.

>>12275164
>climate change is real
>major cities will be underwater
>real state prices in coastal cities keep going up
makes you think

>>12275197
Very few people disagree on the facts, it's only nitpicked that way in the media.

The reality is that reducing global carbon emissions by 45% by 2030, which is the UN recommendation, is pure utopian delusion, and cannot possibly done without committing wholesale genocide.

>>12275217
I never debated that. In fact, that just proves my point; we are headed to disaster and there is very little chance for course correction. The utopian delusion is thinking it will be a tremendous benefit to anyone.

>>12275213
>markets aren't rational
wow...

>>12275267
maybe the markets are waiting for something to actually happen, considering econ doomsayers have been warning of the apocalypse for decades

>>12275184
The solutions proposed by left-environmentalism are not meant to work, but as a pretext for implementing Communism, as in, to subordinate the world to various transnational bureaus in which no one is truly in charge except the Party. This basic idea has been tried on a smaller scale, we call it "The United States" or "The USSR". Now, the USSR was pretty much a failure and the US nearing its own USSR moment, so I don't view this as a good solution.

>>12275267
climate change may be real, but sea level raise is just a meme to scare people, it won't happen

>the proposed solutions to "climate change" are a concession that anthropocentrism is ontologically valid

What did they mean by this?

>>12275282
>Okay, we've sprayed the air with aerosols and banned the use of fossil fuels, just like the UN, Foundations, etc. wanted. Now what?
>Well, now almost everyone is going to have to work in agriculture if we are to feed the population.
>Oh. Say, those farms can be... collectivized, can't they?
>OH SHI-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BulFwGSi8bc

>>12275307
who wrote that?

>>12265321
>if you dont do as i say bad things will happen to you

literally slave morality bring death let's purify the earth

>>12265416
The lefty reactions to this post, disgusting.

At this point environmentalists should just come out and say that they aren't for liberal democracy.

It would save me and everyone a lot of trouble knowing who the eco-fascists are, so I can avoid them, and also make sure they don't get power.

>>12275344
Left-environmentalists are for a liberal democracy in the sense that the US or EU are liberal democracies, but on a global scale.

>>12275363
In what sense are they "left" then?

Because if that's true, they are just bourgeoise liberals.

>>12275384
Most Communists live long enough to see themselves become liberal bourgeoisie through exhaustion anyway.

>muh environment

>>12275344
This idiot afraid of some forward thinking people.

"Democracy", letting mundane common denominators decide when we go, where we go, and of course they are not at all affected by the culture and media they were born in.

Time to think of us as worthy only in our intelligence and allow these educated sophomores to run unrestricted.

>>12275316
Agriculture will work at less of a scale if we just eat the food, instead of wasting water, said produced food, and land to feed livestock.

We should eat pork before poultry, and poultry before beef

>>12275076
Listen to the definition of an environmentalist. Clearly they are not for society, nor democracy, nor technology...if you are a cynic, then take the tastiest poison. If you think people care about environment over identity politics, you're wrong. But should always take a few to get the ball rolling.

How many individuals demonstrated the first wheeled transport? while all the others dumbly spoke about how dangerously fast they saw themselves going, instead of beginning semblances of thoughts of throwing their elderly in wheelchairs or the like.

>>12276557
>muh environment
Muh death

>>12275363
Why can't they take power? eco-leftism is generally a far more intelligent position than identitarian leftism. The thing is they don't know how to low ball and act ruthlessly to seize power like most leftists with any shred of it these days.

Eco-terrorism++
There needs to be a green-house putsch asap. It will bring out so much inspiration to the economy to get people motivated to build a new infrastructure for a new world. Look at the Germans, as usual they're ahead of the curve. (Except that whole ww2 thing can we just move past that yet.)

>>12276557
is edgy the new retard?

>>12277460
elites taking responsibility and decisions it's ok, current elites take decisions but no responsibility, the just govern in the name of democracy and people but do whatever they want

>>12275320

Me.

>>12279347
so what did you mean by it? why are you asking us what did you mean by it?

>>12275344
Based.

Liberalism is the only way.

>>12275344
Exactly. We're all equal, who needs the environment?

>>12279424
looks comfy, nice colors

>>12265416
Read a damn book.

>>12265321
its going to end up with corporate syndicalism anyway the fact neither left nor right agree on this tells me far too much about the modern state of 'philosophy'

>>12279518
>corporate syndicalism
what does that even mean

>>12265321
he’s right

And how the fuck are we going to do that Slavoj? Lecture circuits? Campus clubs? ...marches????

Ah the impossibility of it!

>>12280546
just be yourself!

>>12265321
I can understand the sentiment even though I disagree, but logically doesn't this put Japan, England, Australia and other Island nations at a huge advantage?

>>12274468
>we're doing an ok job of addressing that

>>12265869
Gamers *schniff* Rise Up and so on

>>12265321
If we abandon the nation-state, what are the odds that franchises/corporate entities become "nations" themselves? I mean look at South Korea, Samsung is a massive industry over there, and basically provides healthcare, housing and education.

In the West, or at least America people are more than willing to give everything to say Disney and Facebook. Soon their allegiances will be with the Corporate, rather than the national identity

>>12275344
>not being for liberal democracy is fascism

stay on reddit and additionally commit suicide

>>12273663
masturbates, not has sex. Very disappointing, I was hoping that we had intelligent Hegel scholars here.

>>12275344
Spend a week in retail and realise that we're better off with 85% of the population gone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m37vT1ZL5_A

I CLAIM

>wow people who irrat OP on al see themselves as part of a group arbitrarily are so stupid
>US HUMANS have evolved beyond such stupid ideas so now all of US HUMANS have to work together for our own interests

>>12265461
>Nation-states are a polite fiction today anyway. You are a client of either Washington, Beijing, or Moscow at the end of the day.
>Beijing

I would suspect this is exactly how the Tibetians feel and is their primary reason for desiring a nation-state.

>>12265399
He gave a speech or a lecture called "the great challenge to the left" where he goes into some depth about our need for global action and shits on the anarchist dream.

>>12283731
>where he goes into some depth
let me doubt that, he probably told some jokes, memed a bit, and then shallowly grandstanded about biogenetics, climate change, migration, waved his hand around a bit, and then left the theater

>>12265321
Has anyone here even addressed his shitty premise of their being an impending ecological disaster of existential ramifications? No, some megafauna going extinct and coastal areas gradually flooding does not constitutean "existential threat."

Has anyone here even addressed his shitty premise of there being an impending ecological disaster of existential ramifications? No, some megafauna going extinct and coastal areas gradually flooding does not constitute an "existential threat."

>>12283895
>and coastal areas gradually flooding
climate change may be real, but that part is not going to happen, it's just a meme to scare normies that can't conceive of natural collapses unless the sea literally swallows them or the sky falls on their heads

>>12283898
But we wuz Maldives n shiet.

>>12283898
If you're implying that the apocalypse is going to be brought about by an anthropogenic runaway greenhouse effect, you should head on back over to r/ifuckinglovescience.

>>12265698
Bolsheviks were awful but executing the Romanovs was one of the few unquestioningly positive things they've done.

>>12283949
i know nothing about climate science so i don't have an opinion, either way "the sea is going to rise up" sounds like the memest of memes