/lit/ - Literature

yeah, the moral of the story is don't read anything written by fat people

>>12259539
Martin said the only war he agreed with was WWII, because the Nazis definitely deserved to be defeated at all costs.

>>12259546
Lol

>>12259546
what a cuck

>>12259546
Yes, and? Everyone and their mother will say that WWII was a 'necessary fight of good vs evil'. The more pertinent fact of the matter is that Martin never actually fought but writes his themes like he knows the horrors of war, while Tolkien's experienced it first-hand but tells us of the importance of fighting

>inb4 ANOTHER attempt to shoehorn Tolkien's writings into a WWII allegory

>>12259546
What the fuck would he know about that? It's very easy to pass moral judgements on war from the comfort of your own home (or your local KFC in Martin's case)

That's bad for the dog's teeth and it's cruel to the dog because if it ever bumps into an unexpected object it will slam to a halt and all the force of its original speed will be directed into the dog's snout and teeth.

The dog doesn't know this because a dog's mind operates on a simpler level that doesn't account for "exceptions" or "interruptions" of a given conceived gestalt or plane, or put another way, a dog doesn't have as layered and complex an umwelt as a human so he can't anticipate the gestalt he is currently experiencing (e.g. "move object at muscle-memorized distance through snow-substance at certain level above the underlying plane within this memorized area") being abruptly interrupted by something (e.g.) from the gestalt of "the physical world at large, as the thing in which the current in-focus gestalt itself resides" (e.g., a stone, an object recently added to the scene by some agency, or even the possibility of simple discrepancies produced by unknown errors in one's own process of estimating distances and remembering places one has been before), and so on.

Logically speaking there is no difference between what this person has trained this dog to do and someone training a dog to enjoy biting into objects of a certain shape and color, and then placing a dangerous variant of such an object (say with a strong electrical current running through it) in the dog's face. He is operating at a simpler level. He is going to assume pragmatically that the "toys" of that "kind" will operate the way he is used to them operating. Only the ephemera of the snow shovel situation are different. It's fundamentally the same situation. Eventually that dog is going to ram into a misjudged curb or an object buried in the snow and he's going to jar his teeth. Even if it only hurts a little it's in principle and logically the same.

It's also cruel to train a dog to perform menial tasks. They are happy slaves, bred to be slaves over thousands of years. That is morally ambiguous enough and the only correct response to it is to mitigate it as much as possible while reflecting on it and possible solutions to it. (Maybe we should stop breeding domesticated slave dogs? Maybe we should spend millions of years gently but eugenically breeding them "back" into wolves, as penance for our ancestors' crimes?) But taking advantage of it, and finding it funny that your dog will "serve" you in some way and be happy for the opportunity, is a subhuman thing to do, morally speaking.

The guy who recorded that gif is a subhuman. Shovel your own snow you fucking idiot.

>>12259578
Based and dogpilled

>>12259576
>or your local KFC in Martin's case
kek

>>12259539
Cope epitomized in both cases. Men's ideals follow their actions, not vice versa.

>>12259595
>Men's ideals follow their actions, not vice versa.
what do you mean?

>>12259595
Ah yes, Martin managed to cope in his writings about the horrors of being fat and dodging the draft

>>12259598
One knows not why they make the decisions they do, but is nonetheless always eager to justify themselves.

>>12259595
>>12259603
Pseud alert

>>12259595
>>12259603
>How do I take the statement 'It's post-hoc rationalization' and make myself sound intellectual?
wOw sooo d33p, ur rlly smart :^)

>>12259572
A writer doesn't need to experience anything to write of it, though. Shakespeare didn't experience a fraction of the brutality found in his plays, yet still has every right to present his perspective of them. The only object of relevance is the quality of the mind writing of said subject.

>>12259618
>comparing Getting Round, Really Myopic to Shakespeare
Of course a writer doesnt need experience of something to write about it, but it is telling as to how a writer with experience of a subject writes about it compared to someone who does not have experience with it

>>12259546
Not a /pol/tard but don't you think we hype up the nazis just a LITTLE too much?

>major theme of his life's works was on the importance of war to protect the good in the world

Theses war that occurred in Arda, be the War of Wrath by the Valar or War for the Ring, had huge, huge cost both lives and environment. War for a good couse, yes; but a huge price and nobody escaped unscathed. To defend Good and moral stuff, you have be prepared to pay the price.

>>12259578
Dogs are the ultimate cucks. They deserve it all desu.

>>12259635
They were truly revolutionary and attempted to destroy the status quo, burn everything to the ground from the Enlightenment to the French Revolution and beyond and redirect Europe's course towards something that didn't really respond to rightwing or leftwing politics. Nazism was its own beast, and before they could get there, things would get extremely ugly.
In my personal opinion, Germany should have focused on conquest and only after victory was secured should they have pursued their plans for an stratified ethnic state; trying both at once was their downfall, one of many.

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichean duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

>>12259595
You sound like a smoldering retard.

>trench fever

he was of a high enough social class to have a sick day when they went over the top.
the ruling classes always come up with bullshit to justify the deaths of the common man to protect their interests whilst they cosy up with a pipe and a pint of bitter.... for tolkein the brand of bullshit was hobbits and wizards

>>12259545
Based.

>>12259578
>Maybe we should spend millions of years gently but eugenically breeding them "back" into wolves, as penance for our ancestors' crimes?
Fuck this logic in every single form it appears. Apologising for your ancestors, Jesus Christ is there anything more pathetic.

>>12259633
It is telling, yes, but the post I replied to made it seem as if GRRM has no right to speak on the horrors which he hasn't seen himself, while Tolkein does. If I read it wrong, then it is my fault.

I don't see how WWI can lead to belief of the "importance of war to protect the good in the world".

>>12259650
>truly revolutionary
>who was stalin
>who was napoleon
>who was attila
>who was every major invading force throughout history

>>12259614
I'm sorry that I never sat down and memorized obscure terms for logical fallacies to impress people.

>>12259650
>Nazism
Anyone that unironically uses the term "Nazi" or any of its derivatives is an arrogant bigot and cannot be expected to be taken seriously.

>>12259650
Many of the excesses of Nazi Germany only became reality because of the conditions created by the symbiosis with the Soviet Union tough.

They were similar in that they were wastly different from all that came before and both had a very conscious strategy of tearing down the fabric of preexisting society and were ruthless in achieving these goals.

But Nazism is kinda overhyped yeah. Fascism however has a much worse reputation than it deserves tough, Italy was kinda shitty but even considered going anywhere near the excesses of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or even Romania for that matter.

>>12259710
>who was every major invading force throughout history
That's wrong though throughout history most Invaders kept the society they invaded intact and only demanded that the local leaders were loyal to their new rulers. The existing hierarchies were needed intact in order to rule the land.

>>12259572
lol roach dabbed on him epic style

>>12259738
Fascism has mythological status at this point. Like an evil god that must be proclaimed in as many situations as possible to ward it off.

>>12259568
>I wish the side that wanted to exterminate my peoples won
based "uncucked" /pol/acks

>>12261155
What a fascist reading of fascism

>>12259578
>But taking advantage of it, and finding it funny that your dog will "serve" you in some way and be happy for the opportunity, is a subhuman thing to do, morally speaking.
Dumb idealist who lives in a fairy tale. Conflict and hierarchy are inescapable parts of life so the dog - man relationship where both parties are happy with their positions is a beautiful thing indeed.
Go to the vet and tell owner's of dogs with ticks, fleas, porcupine quills, heartworm etc. how cruel they are for subjugating the animals and not setting them free to deal with those problems on their own lol

>>12261382
>"i'm an edgy moral nihilist who sees life for what it is"
>appeals to natural
>appeals to utility
>appeals to hedonic calculus

clarify your thinking before you hit 20 or you stand no chance of becoming a philosopher

>>12259578
lmao there is nothing wrong with slavery prove me wrong.

>>12261373
nice example la

>>12259572
This is great and makes me have more respect for these people.

>>12259655
based

>>12259578
Woofed and dogpilled

>>12259539
>>major theme of his life's works was on the importance of war to protect the good in the world
Load of bullshit. If you'd read his letters you'd know he was a pacifist who wished for the wars to end. He was even depressed his son had to fight in WW2.

>>12261405
>sees appeals where there aren't any
>believes in objective morality
neck yourself, brainlet

>>12259546

I'm always skeptical about this. Charles Lindbergh was all but a Nazi and popularized the Nazis in the 30s. The British King, before abdication, was pro-Nazi. Moseley had a decent amount of following and the Daily Mail was explicitly pro-Hitler.

Half the politicians of the period were extreme racists by modern standards; Churchill couldn't care less about black Africans and Boer combatants. The British Empire invented the concentration camp and the Ottoman Turks invented modern genocide. People at large only found out about Nanking, Dachau, etc after the war ended. It was not a struggle of modern antiracism vs uber racism by any means. Half the allies were colonial powers, for fuck's sake. Belgium had been chopping slave hands off in the last 50 years, the Raj was still in effect, the Dutch owned Indonesia.

Claiming retrospectively that it was a showdown between good and evil, where evil is everything we hate now, is such stupid revisionism. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic thing for history the Nazis were BTFO for all time but claiming people in general saw it the way we do now at the time is just stupid.

So if you claim you would have fought in WWII because that was righteous, you're full of shit. We only make that judgment in retrospect, even if it's right.

>>12259539
>Tolkien
>was a based catholic
>his novels are a profound evocation of the work of grace in conquering the soul
>the reader can even empathise with the villians in the novel, like Denethor, because their evilness is tragic

>Martin
>doesn't believe in good and evil and that life has meaning
>his writing is filled with decadence, rape, incest and corruption
>there is no goodness or resolution whatsoever, just an endless orgy of power

really makes you think

>>12259650
Hitler and nazis were still really modern. They based their believes on darwinism, eugenics etc which were fueled by scientific beliefs of the time. Only thing reactionary about them were aspects of their symbolism.

Real reactionary was the leader of austria Dolfuss who was killed by the nazis.

>>12259655
Tolkiens believes was mostly fueled by his english traditionalism in the school which go from Burke to Scruton and english catholicism of guys like Chesterton, Belloc, Waugh.

>>12261155
I think that's a mistake. Every political system is to be considered in order to accentuate the state's efficiency at not only satisfying their population's needs, but also to secure itself as stable and prosperous. Banishing fascism from the political spectrum forever because of a failed experiment is highly hypocritical considering the failures many other systems have endured and yet were still allowed to persist.
I am not a fascist by any means, but rejecting the notion on principle even if on certain given situations it might prove itself to be the most efficient form of government during a particular climate seems wasteful to me.

>>12259582
This
>>12261449
Also this

>>12261452
>He was even depressed his son had to fight in WW2
Hardly surprising desu. Even the most gung-ho flagwaver might have mixed feelings about their kid going off to get shot at

>>12259738
Americans don't care about Italy or their facism
as far as we're taught and care they're the rule of threes in the Axis

>>12259578
Objection to your comparison between the snow shovel task and the electric toy task: the owner’s motives matter. And yes, I say owner, if you object to the overall concept of owning animals, we’re not going to meet minds here. In the snow shovel scenario, the owner wants to take precautions to protect the dog from injury while shoveling snow. Presumably he cares about the dog, and will display enough situational awareness to prevent the injury conditions you’ve described. With the electric toy task, the scenario assumes the owner is acting deliberately to harm the animal.

Why do the motives of the owner matter, if the outcome is still servitude for the dog? If dogs are our slaves, and if we cannot breed them back into wolves, and if we are willing to tolerate the concept of animal ownership (again, I presume you don’t, but that wasn’t the center of your argument against dog-shoveling), then we must try to treat them with kindness. And look, it’s just nicer to give a dog a sense of physical purpose than an electric shock.

>>12259546
>muh good war

Surprised he didnt say the civil war too