/lit/ - Literature

it's almost like Marx didn't invent socialism or something

Describes fascism tbqh

>>12238855
did you miss the part where they’re born into semi-permanent castes?

>>12238855
>definition of the JUST city

hmmmmmm

>>12238888
>>12238888
This but unironically.

>>12238888
>>12238903
because Fascism isn't an actual ideology or philosophy but populist demagoguery made by advertisers to win the elections.

It's almost like Marx was a European philosopher, and like most European philosophers, influenced by Plato.

>>12238895
That's a detail. But the principle that makes a society JUST and GOOD it's literally identical in both cases. Does anyone know if Marx read Plato?

>>12238855
>Men of my age flock together; we are birds of a feather, as the old proverb says
The Republic

>We must secure the existence of our people
/pol/

WOAH DUDE HMMMMMM XD

>>12238909
>fascism is just authoritarianism

>>12238921
Yeah, this kind of shit irritates me. It is impossible to avoid plato and meaningfully engage with Western Political philosophy. Marx didn't think he'd uncovered some radical new system through pure analytical reason. He knew of this basis in Plato. He thoughy he'd uncovered the scientific basis for moving towards an ideal society, while recognizing that the ideal would always be out of reach. I'm not a marxist, or even a socialist, but it really irritates me when My First Marxisms are so smug. Like him or not, Marx was still an impressive and powerful thinker. Like him or not, at least take him seriously.

i.e. Plato

>>12238959
where did I say this?

>>12238974
In this post >>12238909

>>12238987
tell me how you translated it to that. I don't even believe Fascism is just authoritarianism so I'm confused how anything I said could be interpreted like that.

Aristotle also talks about politics essentially just being class conflict. It's like /lit/ tells you to start with the greeks for a reason or something.

>>12238895
Isn't that basically communism? It's not like you can get rich and become rich lol

>>12238949
he's a PhD so yes

>>12238991
There's clearly something transcendentally common among the different fascist movements of history. Your post is actually kind of contradictory, something could not simultaneously be imposed from above by advertisers and come from below as populism.

>>12239034
there's nothing contradictory about admen using demagoguery to gain popularity, which is what my post is suggesting Fascism is.

>>12239034
All "populism" is a psyop. True populism doesn't really exist.

>>12238855
I mean the spirit there is certainly the same.

>>12239041
It is contradictory because fascism can't be both populism and imposed by admen. Populism is bottom-up by definition.

>>12239052
this post is a psyop

>>12239190
populism isn't a form of government dumbass. it's an approach to political advertising by definition if anything.

>>12239215
Populism isn't a form of government you fucking idiot. It's not a form of advertising either, the point of advertising is convincing people that they need something they previously did not. Populism is the opposite of advertising, which is an elitist strategy to sell things to the masses. Populism is literally the practice of the people getting what they want. There's no advertisement necessary.

>>12239229
by this logic direct democracy and populism are the exact same thing, is that what you're suggesting?

>>12239241
Of course not, populism is often anti-democratic because democracy is elitist. Populism can be expressed via direct democratic avenues, like plebiscites.

>>12239245
how is democracy elitist

>>12238963
retard

>>12239255
The entire idea of "rule of law" is elitist. We have to defend the "rule of law" from populism otherwise people might actually get what they want. An entire ruling class of lawyers, bureaucrats, and politicians must exist to uphold the "rule of law" which as a system just serves to further reinforce this class's own supremacy. The further elitism inherent to representative democracy should go without saying, but even direct democracy is going to have similar shortcomings. Who gets to vote? How are laws applied, federal vs unitary? etc

>>12239287
democracy means rule of the majority, not rule of law.
it's not a particular form of government, it's just a general ideology which says the majority opinion should dictate the rules.

>>12239297
>*majority of enfranchised people
ftfy

>>12239307
now you're just backpeddling because you realized you got the definitions of populism and democracy mixed up.

>>12239310
i'm not the anon you were arguing with. there's a lot of half-formed thoughts ITT, and people misusing words.

What kind of isolated edgelord do you have to be to care about communism in 2018?

>>12239310
not that guy either but

populism means the will of the people, but that would mean something closer to a "direct democracy", rather than a representative democracy

>>12239297
This wasn't me >>12239307 but he's not wrong. You're making arguments on semantics while I'm making arguments on substance. You can dissect the etymology of the word "democracy" all day but that says nothing of how historical democracies have functioned or how hypothetical ones could function.

>>12239364
if we can't agree on semantics then discussions on substance don't matter. you need to have an abstract before discussing a physical thing.
populism simply isn't a state of man, it's just an appeal. that's it.
democracy, on the other hand, is an ideal state where the majority decides the rules.
you can argue all day about the history of how the words were used but it doesn't matter. just because some idiots did something stupid in the name of something else it has no relevance to the idea itself.

Who decides whats appropriate tho?

>>12239397
(cont.) if you want to argue that the idea of democracy is a failure then that's another thing, but you can't just say democracy is this different thing just because someone else made this real thing that was different and called it democracy.

>>12239007
Communism doesn’t have classes, castes, etc

>>12239279
Not an argument

>>12238909

>>12239506
correct!

>>12238909
But enough about FDR

>>12239419
But it literally does? Are you implying there can be no building guy, manager guy, talking guy, etc?

>>12239190
Hitler was popular with “the people” and his status as “Führer” was considered (in propagandistic terms but not completely inaccurately) representative of their will, moreso than liberal democracy

>>12240150
Hitler was the avatar of the German All-father archetype, he was the genuine German Leviathan.

>>12238855
you see, Western Philosophy evolved from its roots like Platon and even his students expaned or corrected some of the teachings.
Marx on the other hand sounds like the retard who hasn't learned anything out of 2000 years of philosophy.

>>12240260
>>12240150
Hitler committed suicide and was btfo by everyone he fought against during the war. If you would read about how he came to power and then what was done to secure and keep it, you will realise that he was not popular or a populist or a benefactee of populism in any sense.

Y don't people read laws?

>>12240341
>Hitler committed suicide and was btfo by everyone he fought against during the war
This has nothing to do with what we're talking about, you gave away your agenda right here.

>>12238855
I think it's about time that we consider whether Greek political thought isn't, in fact, toxic.

>>12238909
correct

>>12240378
Because no ebic memes

>>12240150
The people's will means 0. Literally just have them watch a shitty movie and their will is your will.

>>12238855
>Plato: everyone performs a certain task and is paid the absolute fair amount for their work
>Marx: people perform jobs and whatever they are allocated resourced they require to continue that job and contribute to society
Two completely different concepts.

>>12240419
You didn't get the point of that sentence is all, but it's ok. Hitler was not the great man that he was portrayed as by the propaganda at the time, as evidenced by how he ended as well as the fruits of what he accomplished. Not sure what do you think my agenda is?

>>12238855
>The state chooses what you do and what you receive

Hmm. Sounds fairly authoritarian.

What if I want an overseas holiday? Who pays for that, and how?

>>12240572
congrats on this. Seriously

>>12240572
OP is not making the case that the Republic = Communism, but that the principle that makes a society JUST and GOOD is literally the same in both systems...

Of course Plato and Marx disagree on what the JUST and the GOOD consists of, to argue otherwise would be insane

>>12240659
The issue is that the quotes are put together as if they are meant to convey the exact same meaning. They don't.

Let's of ignore the context for a second where Marx was most likely presenting something akin to policy while Plato was making more of a semantic claim.

The fundamental difference is that Plato believes justice is the individual working and receiving the "right" amount. Marx is saying that justice is the individual working and receiving what is necessary to keep them working. These are not the same in both systems. They're about as opposed as capitalism and communism.

>>12240720
>The issue is that the quotes are put together as if they are meant to convey the exact same meaning. They don't.

But they do tho. To argue they don't would be extremely autistic...

Since it seems you just completely ignored what I said I will state it again: the principle that makes a society JUST and GOOD is the same in both systems, Marx and Plato disagree on what the JUST and GOOD individual practices that makes up the society are.

>>12238855
>he doesn't realise that The Republic was ironic

>>12240805
No.

Is everyone really ignoring how OP is taking this out of context? Plato is clearly saying you only get what you work for, whereas Marx is saying you produce what you are able to and still receive what you need to survive, even if you produce less. Is this board really not smart enough to realize this?

>>12240824
evidently yes, also shitposting

>>12240260
Interesting but ultimately pointless post.

>>12239000
>just being class conflict

Another cause of revolution is difference of races which do not at once acquire a common spirit; for a state is not the growth of a day, any more than it grows out of a multitude brought together by accident. Hence the reception of stranger in colonies, either at the time of their foundation or afterwards has generally produced revolution; for example, the Achaens who joined the Troezenians in the foundation of Sybaris, becoming later the more numerous, expelled them; hence the curse fell upon Sybaris. At Thurii the Sybarites quarreled with their fellow colonists; thinking that the land belonged to them, they wanted too much of it and were driven out. At Byzantium the new colonists were detected in a conspiracy, and were expelled by force of arms; the people of Antissa who had received the Chian exiles, fought with them, and drove them out of their own city. The citizens of Apollonia on the Euxine, after the introduction of a fresh body of colonists, had a revolution; the Syracusans, after the expulsion of their tyrants having admitted the strangers and mercenaries to the rights of citizenship, quarreled and came to blows; the people of Amphipolis, having received Chalcidian colonists, were nearly all expelled by them.

>>12238949
>That's a detail.
Marx's whole society is based on a classless idea, Plato wants a ruling class of philosopher kings. Not to mention Marx's idea of what is just and good it the abolishment of the ruling class.

>>12240612
Character means nothing in communist states. You can possess greater ambition, acumen, and willpower than your neighbor, but if you're born of the same social rank as him, you won't be reaping any more benefits from the system than he will.

>>12240659
>>12240805
I disagree completely with this interpretation. You seem to be identifying Justice and Goodness with one another, something that is NOT Platonic. Justice is found in Kallipolis by the appropriate ordering of society, which is a combination of OP's quote AND the Kallipolean regime in its totality. Meanwhile, Goodness is an objective Idea/Form which exists independently and prior to the city and to all existence—Plato's conception of Goodness is fundamentally different from Marx's conception, it's not merely individual practices. Furthermore, they seem to have very different conceptions of humanity: Marx is quite explicit that man is a working animal and that is the purpose (telos) of man as he exists in the world, Plato's conception is fuzzier (as is my understanding of it) but I think it is clearly not compatible with Marx's conception. So I think it is very easy to say that—at a fundamental level—these two strains of thought are incompatible; someone comparing the rhetorical flourishes of two authors as if they are representative of their whole thought is idiotic or has an agenda.

>>12238963
Wow. He IS wrong 100% of the time.
Incredible

>>12241001
Shamefully no different from capitalist states.

>>12239763
Not that guy but, people being different and doing different things doesn't implicate inequality. Just a thought, as I have no stake in the argument.

>>12238855

They are complete opposites. For Plato you get what you deserve according to your nature and what you do (which for him means a "reverse" salary hierarchy, with those with more power being paid less as they have no need for material goods); while for Marx you receive according to what you need despite the kind of work you do.

>>12238881
It's almost like Marx hated socialism above all else as it is the exact opposite of communism, you couldn't be farther from communism with socialism, but that would require your illiterate and ignorant pleb ass to open a book once in your lifetime and not buy into 'common sense' which, if you're american, is nothing more than cia approved political dichotomy I wish I could skin you rigth now, plebs physically repulse me, die die die die i hope you die a painful death i really do this isn't some kind of joke, people like you are like insects in my eyes. pathetic, imagine being so dumb, so ugly, so illiterate, so repulsive than you manage to be one hundred percent wrong anytime you post, anytime you breathe and any living moment you will spend on this earth? imagine equating communism and socialism. imagine doing it with the self assurance plebs learned from various youtube charlatans on tedtalks who regurgitate managerial theories of disgusting anlo influence to let them know that saying anything with a straight face will make their pathetic mediocre life somewhat more legitimate but no, you are and always will be mediocre nobody, a pleb of petite stature and low ambition, this truly is the end times where values are inverted and we are led by thieves, and taught by imbeciles

>even of you do the bare minimum we will still give you enough to survive

Why would I honestly try im this kind of society though? Why would I not want to be a borderline NEET?

>>12241937
because it's almost like Marx hated socialism above all else as it is.......
good god, does anybody actually knows the difference between fucking communism and socialism?..??? Is this too hard to ask? This isn't even on mutt time, they're all sleeping so you're european. Is the world so far gone that people aren't reading books AT ALL?

>>12238963
>Religion built upon following rules in all aspects of life is linked with anarchism

>>12241801
>le you can't make money without money meme
Sorry, but no. Capitalism isn't like that at all.

>>12242110
N views Christianity as antithetical to life's natural impulses and Plato as having devised the set of rules which helped launch it as a religion.

>>12240260
i like where you're going with this

>>12240596
>I'm condescending which shows clearly that what I say is more valid
>great men follow my narrow modernist judeo-christian ethics
>that the supposed good guy lost to the bad guy is evidence that the good guy is not good
>I lack the ability to recognize and acknowledge my ideological bias
wew lad, nice b8

>>12242110
>what is the natural inclination of slaves liberated from their masters by christianity

>>12242482
Tell me how to make million dollars with no money/possessions. That includes clothes, condoms, etc.

>>12238909
Thought it was the label internationalists made up and mythologised to use a convenient tool of controlling the population. I don't think it was ever an actual thing (obviously Nazism and the like existed, by these are not really a single thing).

>>12245001
Steal some money and buy scratch offs.

>>12245001
You were too dumb to understand how capitalism works so no surprise that you're too dumb to figure out how to make more money.

>>12246489
>ur just dumb!

Long Live Platonism-Marxism-Leninism-Maoist-Xi Jinping thought with neuropsychopharmacological characteristics!

>>12241952
>This isn't even on mutt time, they're all sleeping so you're european
>8:04 est
Am i reading this correctly

>>12244952
Only a true postmodernist could convince himself that Hitler was a "great man".

>>12241935
communism is a type of socialism you fuckwit. it’s just science applied to socialism. Marx’s ideas of worker control existed before he did.

>>12238949
Its an extremely essential part of Socrates’ conception of the cave, access to and understanding of the Good which leads to a Just soul and the production of more Just men, philosopher kings, the guardian caste. The entire book leads up to his delineation of the just city and the downfall of the other forms of government, specifically democracy where a great leveling of rank happens that causes the variegated and frivolous son of the oligarch to submit to demogougery, flattery and debauched lowly, resentful tepidity.
>>12239007
Communism is usually kleptocratic (oligarchy-democracy with aristocratic elements like the elites of the CCP) and tyrranical in practice. In theory there aren’t supposed to be hierarchies in communist society, this has never once been the case but that’s not pertinent to whether that’s what Marx desired. He definitely was familiar with Plato, Aristotle etc.

>>12246575
You pathetic little Jew rodent.

Not everyone believes your lies.

>>12246585
statistically unlikely the anon was not a white male, i don’t know why you like shadow boxing like this. i am jewish and think Hitler was indeed a great, albeit disappointing, man and possibly the most important human of the 20th century if we consider ZOG as being constructed on his corpse

>>12246598
>unlikely the anon was not
This kind of speak, you must post dick so we can prove if you're circumcised. Don't worry the Jannies like it just don't actually do it because I'm obviously joking.

>>12246585
see pic. related, that's me and my doggo but we aren't after you, we're fly fishing.

>>12246598
I don't actually care. I just find it silly and pathetic when people will deny someone is great because they're offended by them.

Hitler was great in any meaning of that word.

>>12246628
You look like the type of guy whose parents cut the tip of his cock off to satisfy God's chosen people.

>>12246633
>cut the tip of his cock off
not what circumcision is
>to satisfy God's chosen people
not why circumcision is done