/lit/ - Literature

Five classics and four books, cf. Imperial Examination

Check out "The sources of Chinese Tradition", might cover a good bunch of what you're talking about

can't help you but good luck anon

>>12199812
Thank you.

>>12199811
Thanks alot this is great.

>>12199805
I don't understand. Five classics and four books of what? I heard the terms but I don't know what that means.

>cf.
Same for that abbrevation. Can you go a little more into detail?

>A good intro book into Daoism, Confuzianism, Legalism, hundred school and whatnot.
Why not just read the actual works? They're all fairly short. A lot of them have material that was added hundreds of years later, and you can find translations which cut out all of that stuff so it's even shorter.(and more authentic)

>>12199792
>Bonus points: Articles on how China treats it's religious and ethnic minorities
spoiler alert: it's not pretty.

>>12199853
>Why not just read the actual works?
Because reading the bible wouldn't make an outsider understand catholicism. I actually read the tao te king but how it plays out in actuality with priests god worship etc. doesn't follow from it.
Do not get me wrong: I have great interest in the source material and if you were to compile a list it would be highly appreciated. But for the purpose of understanding China I think an intro text would be more useful.
I encourage you to reply if you disagree.

>>12199875
It's very pretty. Muslims have no business outside Arabian penisula and even that is questionable position.

>>12199792
during your downtime from reading you might want to check out the sinica podcast, it's hosted by a smug american chink and a south african jew who are both turboliberals but they have interesting experts on all kinds of subjects from tech in china to minority stuff to geopolitics and diploma etc. good stuff to listen to while doing household chores and the like. a recent one was about xi jinping as a person and his vision for the country, another one about AI and tech competition between east and west, and another one about the china-pakistan alliance for example. lots of variety.

>>12199889
>mongoloid turks should leave their actual historical homeland to make room for christian inspired westernised chinese totalitarianism
Ok buddy. Are you also the same guy saying capitalism is the natural state of things and globalists are pushing a world government?

>>12199892
Also regarding Podcasts, this guy has a bunch of interesting china stuff https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCim2V_PqtJ6_W2fDESGzJHA

>>12199889
Keep discussion focused on China please.

>>12199892
>>12199899
Thank you. I will do that.

>>12199898
>christian inspired westernised chinese totalitarianism
wat?

>>12199898
Yes. No. Also capitalism is far from natural state of things because it requires civilization and rule of law. Bolshevism was much closer to natural state, they starved, raped, tortured and killed whoever the fuck they wanted just because they could, law or no law.

>>12199892
>hosted by a smug american chink and a south african jew

For a second I thought you were talking about ADVChina, which is another channel OP want to look into, even though it's more about present day China as seen by Westerners rather than discussing Chinese history. They do have some interesting insights into modern Chinese society though.

>>12199818
Five Classics
>Classic of Poetry, ancient poems and songs.
>Book of Documents, various speeches and such.
>Book of Rites, describes how to be polite if you suffer from crippling autism.
>I Ching, a divinatory text.
>Spring and Autumn Annals, a historical record of the State Confucius lived in.

Four Books
>Great Learning, a sort of summary of the viewpoint that Chinese political and ethical philosophy came about from.
>Doctrine of the Mean, basically the Golden Rule.
>Analects, the primary Confucian text, written by Confucius. This is "The Master said..." ad infinitum.
>Mencius, a longer text that is closer to Western Philosophy than the Analects, about Mencius, who is sort of the Aristotle to Confucius' Plato.

These are the beginning of Chinese literature in the same way Homer and Plato are for the West, so they are referenced all. the. fucking. time. in Chinese literature.

>>12199931
Thank you so much

Everyone please: There is a way to discuss these topics while still keeping ontopic. Very well so even.

>>12199883
This is what I read. In a couple of cases I couldn't get the best translation, but most of these should be the best available.

The I Ching, tr. Wilhelm&Baynes
Confucius's Analects, tr. Watson
Zisi's "Doctrine of the Mean", tr. Legge(Get a better translation if you can)
Mencius, tr. Bloom
The Mozi, tr. W.P. Mei (available on ctext.org, get a better translation if you can)
Tao Te Ching, tr. Lombardo(a lot of translations work fine for the Tao Te Ching, many people even suggest you read multiple)
The Zhuangzi, tr. Watson
Xunzi's Basic Writings, tr. Watson(includes all of his likely-authentic writings)
Han Feizi's Basic Writings, tr. Watson

If you're really interested in China, I suggest the Book of Odes, which was central to Chinese philosophy and thought, similar to how Homer was central to the Greeks and the Vedas were central to the Indians. I would also suggest a brief primer on the Warring States Period before reading all of those philosophers, I didn't read a primer and I feel like I would have benefited from it.

>>12199792
There are a couple of audio resources that you might find helpful. The Teaching Company has two ‘Great Courses’ on China, both of which are good. First is ‘Yao to Mao: 5000 years of Chinese History’ and the other is ‘The Fall and Rise of China’. I’ve listened to all of the latter and most of the former and can recommend both. You can find both on pirate bay and probably other torrent places. Yao to Mao is about trying to give you the big picture of Chinese history, to get through the whole 5000 years in 48 lectures and it’s depth of coverage is proportional. The Fall and Rise starts in about 1800 or so, but three quarters of the 48 lectures are about the time after 1945, and go right up to 2008.

The Fall and Rise course covers your points 4, 5, and 6 pretty well, at least as a good starting point.

>>12199947
Thank you.

>>12199947
>>12199931
>If you're really interested in China, I suggest the Book of Odes
>Five Classics Four Books
Since I don't have the knowledge to do so can you please interact with each other's seemingly contradicting (complementary?) statements?

>>12200012
Nothing illegal please. Which raises the question what audio resource means. As you said lectures this sounds to be an academic (level) course? Free or pay?

>>12200138
Stop redditing

>>12200138
The Book of Odes is the Classic of Poetry. Most of those two lists agree, in >>12199931 I wasn't suggesting you literally start with those, I was just explaining what the 5C4B were. >>12199947's list brings in some other stuff (Mozi, Xunzi, Zhuangzi, etc) which are great, but they aren't the 5C4B. Chinese Literature is huge and vast so there's plenty of fun stuff, the problem is that it's entirely possible for the Chinese to have huge very in-depth discussions just by quoting a handful of ancient texts because of how nuanced the language can get.

Confucius and Mencius both regularly cite the Classics, and many of their philosophical points start with "The Ode says..." and that ode has a long history of literary analysis that Mencius and Confucius knew but you almost certainly do not (either because you're a Westerner and don't get what the fuck a few lyrics about ducks and grass have to do with proper taxation policy or because the analysis has been lost to time and only survives in Chinese folk-culture).

Ancient Chinese Texts were written for people who knew what the text said before they read it and in n some cases this is literal and not just metaphorical.

>>12199792
No joke, start with the three-character-classic and the thousand-character-classic
Those books basically outline all of chinese culture and history is very broad strokes designed to be understood by children.
From there you can pick out the parts that interest you and explore more deeply.

>>12199883
>tao te king
that spelling makes me think you read the Legge version, which is excellent, but not very helpful for beginners.
Try perhaps the Jane English version and you might get some more traction.

>>12199916
>civilization and "rule of law" (a complex primate social structure) arose from nature
>he thinks these things are not natural
I'm not gonna make any claims about Capitalism, but wew lad

Good thread OP. I'm gonna go pick up some of these and learn how to be a Chinaman.

>>12200138
Both are presented by professors of Chinese history and politics. They are university level, each 48 half-hour lectures.

If you want to buy them then you can get them in audio only or full video formats. I just pirated the audio bc they are pretty expensive if you want to purchase the CDs/DVDs.

>>12200161
Can you recommend a particular translation for the 5C4B or Book of Odes? I'm looking around on Amazon and some of these translations look a bit sketchy.

>>12199792
>Ideally one that spans all of Chinese history
I think Gernet's History of Chinese Civilisation might be the best one-volumer. Sources of Chinese Tradition also a great idea.

>A good intro book into Daoism, Confuzianism, Legalism, hundred school and whatnot
Schwartz- The World of Thought in Ancient China. Nylan's The Five 'Confucian' Classics is a great intro to understanding the classics and their place.

>A more specific book into later Chinese schools of thought and history in what would follow the 'classical period
I don't know of any single book which covers this, would be 2000 years of highly complex history. Again Sources of Chinese Tradition might be the best starting point.

>Chinese reaction to colonialism and western supremacy, ideally into the rise of communism
Spence, In Search of Modern China. His The Gate of Heavenly Peace might be an even better intro to 20th century Chinese history, but it's lacking in Qing dynasty context.

Also obligatory mention for Lin Yutang, My Country and My People and The Art Of Living, which would be my choices for a very first introduction to Chinese culture. Pinches of salt needed, but enjoyable and full of knowledge bombs.

>>12199875
china actually treats its minorities very well besides tibetans and uyghurs. they are given affirmative action for college acceptances, mandated quotas in employment, and are often exempted from restrictive policies like the one child policy.

Anyone have recommendations for people who like Mo Yan?

Awesome thread, thanks OP and contributors.

>12200154
Grow up! Its not 4chan anymore :>)

Might look at some of this stuff before enaging with the 4 classics, based

>>12199792
the state published short books about chinese history cover pretty much everything after the stone age

>>12201568
do they cover tiananmen square?

>>12199792

>China thread
>get excited
>it's another non-fiction only fag

>>12201590
of course not dimwit. It ends around 1900.

>>12201681
of course they would omit all that stuff, typical chinese propaganda i see
yikes!

>>12199875
>we should act before it's too late
Kek, as if anyone is going to challenge China on anything except trade bullshit. They murdered thousands of innocent pro democracy college students and all the west did was throw some petty sanctions them for a few months.
>>12199889
>uyghurs have no place in their ancestral homeland because they worship the wrong magic man in the sky
Whatever you say Chang.

>>12199792
CHING CHONG BING BOW MING MING DING DONG BINGALANGALINGLONG

>>12199889
Islam is much better than Confucianism to be honest. The latter may sound reasonable, logical and pretty but it ultimately leads to superficial formalism that drains every last shred of soul from people living under it. Confucianism is the reason Chinese are bugmen, for their lack of compassion and inner sense of value, instead dealing in what's """proper""" and """orderly""". It's a disaster.

>>12199792
Everything you need to know is in "Ways That Are Dark: The Truth About China"

>>12201677
Chinks have no creativity so all their fiction is boring and meaningless.

>>12203018
>thousands
[citation needed]

>>12203509
>I haven't read any chinese fiction but let me tell you about all chinese fiction
>pejoratives
yikes

>>12203512
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

>>12204008
Interesting, the 10,000 figure seems plausible actually.

>>12203060
Unspeakably based.

>>12200795
>china actually treats its minorities very well besides the ones in concentration camps

I would like to understand modern Chinese state governance system, its origins and philosophy so to speak. I can't really tell anything else about them, just that they are state capitalism.

Also what is the undercurrent or resistance thought of line in Chinese thinking? By this I guess I mean what the people opposed to current system favor, do they want Western Democracy? or what?

>>12205574
You can't understand bugmen

This is gay as shit, op.

You shouldn't ignore fiction. Not only should fiction be appreciated on its own merits, but Chinese philosophy (particularly Daoist and Buddhist, but also Confucian) is bound up in fiction. Early Daoism was expressed in the form of poetry and allegory, and Buddhism's leveraging of stories and poetry for proselytising was incredibly influential on the Chinese interpretation of the religion itself (Chan koans). Confucianism was itself highly influenced by Water Margin and good old Three Kingdoms.

It's like asking for ancient Greek philosophy but ignoring the poems of the presocratics and the dialogues of Plato. Or looking into medieval Catholicism without reading Dante.

Try the Columbia Anthology of Traditional Chinese Literature. It's a great pick and mix intro to Chinese lit, fiction and non fiction, from oracle bones to essays to short stories to fart jokes. It's available in all good university libraries.

>>12199792
>a good neutral pov book on the time of Mao
Mao Zedong and China in the Twentieth Century World by Rebecca Karl.
Start with Mao and study the philosophy of Xi Jinping to understand the context of modern China. From there, you will understand Chinese culture enough to work your way back. Unlike Western culture, which you were born into, it will be very difficult for you to grasp the abstract philosophical underpinnings of Chinese society without understanding the modern political condition of China.

>>12206594
>study the philosophy of Xi Jinping
wut. Surely it's nothing but authoritarian nationalism + excuses for the government still calling itself Communist? What philosophical contributions does Uncle Xi make, exactly?

>>12206459
>You shouldn't ignore fiction
adding Journey to the West to this thread, since somehow nobody has done so so far

>>12199792
can't help with books because im fucking sick of china but natgeo's china rising was a good documentary.

woops i guess it was "China Rises", from CBC/Discovery

>>12209183
>not reading the original records of the monk Zuanxang's travel to India that journey to the west was based on

>>12203060
HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MY MOTHER

I'm a beginner Mandarin learner. Any fun recommendations for easy books to read for somebody who's just finished up all HSK vocab?

>>12210588
>finished HSK
>beginner
啥?

>>12205383
>"I will give you a bunch of preferential treatments over Han Chinese as long as you don't try to secede"
>tried to secede
>woah the chinaman is bullying me for reason!!!
kys

>>12210753
Dunno, it just takes a few months if you plug it with Anki. I'm at like 25k words in Japanese and I still feel barely intermediate

>>12203018
>innocent
>pro democracy
lol, pick one