/lit/ - Literature

When I read Nick Land, Quentin Meillassoux, Reza Negarestani and Ray Brassier.

>>12164788
i mean theres probably good stuff out there but most of it is shit, like manga except i like that

never cared enough to dislike it, it just doesn't interest me

>>12164811
BASED

It isn't like it isn't enjoyable, there just isn't any work that contains as much literary merit as most literature

>>12164788
I never had that phase, it just so happened that all sci fi literature i've ever read was shit

Is Dune actually good guys? Book of the New Sun?

All I got out of your image is a reminder of how much I would rather be teaching Emily Dickinson than Science Fiction right now.

>>12164788
Someone please explain the line between genre and literary fiction

>>12164818
This.
Or rather, I was into it in my teens but it no longer interests me.
Recently reread Fifth Head of Cerberus and enjoyed it though so I may do the same with Book of the New Sun.

>>12164788
That image is like a 13 year olds idea of what "proper literature" is. It's more>>12164829
"proper" literature is probably more the jet pack in nature.

I didn't because I know that science fiction is predictive programming for the coming technocracy.

>>12164840
yes (at least the 1st one). no.

>>12164840
Dune you can skip if you're not typically into sci-fi.
Wolfe you should read, but you can try Fifth Head of Cerberus first for a taste to see if he may be up your alley.

>>12165009
It's the line between fancy and imagination.

>>12165009
Genre = "things old university jews told me are childish"
Literary = "things old university jews all agree are deep and important"

When I read some Strugatsky brothers

>>12165087
based

Never did, but most science fiction is trash. Admittedly this is true for most genres, and sci-fi is generally better quality entertainment than fantasy.

>>12164788
When I read PKD.

>>12165482
I forgot, when I mean "genres" I mean all fiction, there are plenty of bad "serious" fiction books.

>>12164788
I never had one, but I started with Fahrenheit 451 so that may explain it.

>>12164788
After reading A Rose for Ecclesiastes and A Canticle for Leibowitz

When I entered the "SCIENCE FICTION WORSE" one.

>>12164788
I've unironically never been interested in genre fiction. Good literary fiction is much more interesting than genre fiction

>>12164788
Science Fiction is better in visual formats.
Prove me wrong.

>>12165533
This, I read Hitchhiker's Guide and LOTR and that's it for genre fiction (unless you count stuff like 1984 and Brave New World as sci fi, which I don't). I do want to try Book of the New Sun though.

>>12165648
I also want to try Ubik

>>12165648
You should definitely check out Wolfe and also check out Mervyn Peake (pre-Tolkien fantasy).
I also liked Le Guin a lot as a teen, but I'm not sure how she'd hold up now.

>>12164788
The only Scifi I read are Warhammer 40k novels.

>>12165087
For better or worse science fiction and fantasy are really childish though, and contemporary writers seem to have an obsession about making it more "adult". Not that there's anything wrong with it, but if you enjoy it you're probably a manchild.

>>12165740
I'd say there's nothing wrong with the occasional bit of genre fic, and there is some really good stuff, but if that's all you read then yeah you're a manchild. Same way that there is good anime/manga (NGE, Berserk etc.) and if you like anime as well as other stuff then that's fine but if you never read/watch anything more complex than anime you're a manchild.

>>12165767
I'd argue that anyone who enjoys that kind of media in general (anime, video games, etc) is a manchild to some degree. No shame in admitting it.

>>12165780
I agree with that if there's the 'to some degree', I'm just saying there are degrees of separation.

>>12165780
>I'd argue that anyone who enjoys that kind of media in general (anime, video games, etc) is a manchild to some degree.
this argument is wrong.

>>12165799
Well obviously there's a difference between enjoying it on occasion and being a neet who collects anime pillows.

>>12165767
It depends why you're doing it, and how much. If you just want light, easy to digest entertainment, then there's no difference between reading shit genre fiction and watching marvel movies. And like watching movies, you don't want to do it all the time because it isn't anything more than light entertainment.
If you want to get something out of it, then most genre fiction is incredibly bad for that, if not detrimental.

>>12165643
Science fiction literature can be really good if it's actually literary and not just descriptive stories of cool shit happening. William Gibson's "The Winter Market" is one of my favorite works in general. When I first read the opening and got to this line, I knew I was in for some good stuff:
>Because she was dead, and I’d let her go. Because, now, she was immortal, and I’d helped her get that way. And because I knew she’d phone me, in the morning.

>>12165740
>For better or worse science fiction and fantasy are really childish though
Ok Schlomo

sci fi

eg dune, foundation series, the culture, etc

its much better than fiction etc, it takes speculation of alt worlds and repercussions alot more effort and skill

>>12164811
A must

I’ve never not enjoyed science fiction. I’m currently reading a collection of Kurt Vonnegut, and the Sirens of Titan is one of my favorite novels.

Why does science fiction get a bad rep on this board? Is it just pseuds who only read philosophy? Like, what else do people even read at that point, then?

I've always loved hard sci fi. It fills a very different spot than proper literature, but it has its place.

>>12164788
I started reading sci-fi as a kid, and as I grew older I kept reading better and better sci-fi, same as with other books.
So I never really had that moment, but I definitely read plenty of garbage both genre and otherwise

when people say "sci-fi is garbage" what they really mean is "so much sci-fi is garbage that you might as well say all of it is garbage"

>>12165713
based Tanith First and only poster

>>12164788
When i discovered that sci-fi has hot alien milfs

Science fiction is top tier art. How can you see it as anything less than cutting edge? Philosophy nerds should eat it up for its implications but really sci fi is the true pleb filter as most people are concerned with having big brains or at least being perceived that way.

God you pretentious faggots should all get AIDS.

Sci-fi is inhuman autism literature. It's not about characters as humans; rather characters are robotic tools for whatever autistic concept the author wants to explore. You can see it in OP's image, where the focus of the sci-fi side is a jetpack, where the literature side is a group of people conversing with each other.

When I read dune and the works of Phillip K Bepis

Thoughts on The Space Traders?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Traders

>>12167075
Characters in literary fiction are just tools as well for whatever political or philosophical ideology the author wants to peddle.

I don't mind science fiction so long as there isn't an over-emphasis on technology. Too much science fiction has too much of a boner over "rationality" and "ZOMG SCIENCE" and technology rather than an exploration of humanity, the human condition, and morality through futuristic stories.

>>12167075
Imagine being so autistic that you take OP pic at face value

>>12168092
t. autistic fiction reader that can't empathize with other humans
>>12168118
I didn't say that was what was intended. I think it simply shows inadvertently.

>>12168095
Hard sci-fi claims another pleb

>>12168139
what's the hardest sci-fi out there?

Is Aniara technically sci-fi?

>>12168152
Not sure about 'hardest', but Nivens Ringworld books are apogee of autism

>>12165490
One of my favourites

>>12168161
Hard means most scientifically correct. No FTL travel for instance.

>>12164788
I never went through one.

Although I will always have a burning disdain for anything from the Syfy channel and anything Star Trek related. Absolute fucking trash.

>>12164840
Go for Lem, the Strugatzkijs, and maybe Ballard.

>>12168152
Also the bleakest.

>>12165009
Genre is basically a theme which works exceptionally well because it fits the taste of the normie 100-IQ population, so it is repeated again and again and again with a myriad of variations. Gothic novels were probably the first genre fiction. Reading genre means you want more of the same stuff, like going to McDonald's. You will pretty much know what you are about to get, with a few exceptions there will be no surprises. Sorry if that sounds snobby.

It is a genre for people that understand neither science nor fiction, but would like to tell themselves that they do.

>>12168160
>Aniara
No. Even if it were it would be an exception. So it "We".

>>12168251
>Genre is basically a theme which works exceptionally well because it fits the taste of the normie 100-IQ population
Proper hard scifi (e.g. Greg Egan) counts as genre, and no normalfags read it.

>>12168265
There is plenty of science in some sci fi. The issue is the genre includes both "fantasy, but in space" and "scientific ideas, but awkwardly turned into a story"

>>12168251
>Reading genre means you want more of the same stuff
Fantasy is usually repetitive Tolkien pastiche, but scifi is rated almost entirely on innovation. Do you think anybody cares about the prose or the characters in Ringworld? It's famous purely because of the cool new idea (the ringworld). Asimov churned out enormous quantities of crap, but he came up with the Three Laws of Robotics, and that was new and interesting. Scifi is the most novelty-seeking of all genres. Literary fiction is more repetitive in every way except style.

>>12168359
See, here it is:
>Do you think anybody cares about the prose or the characters in Ringworld? It's famous purely because of the cool new idea
This is my point exactly: >>12167075

>>12166763
thats a big pizza haha

>>12168204
Forever War is autistic about FTL, but it also has psychics and some other odd stuff.

>>12165009
Literary fiction uses its own techniques, characters, tropes, imagery, narrative structures, and so on, all to tell the author's own story.

Genre fiction frequently plunders the techniques, characters, tropes, imagery, and narrative structures of literary fiction, or more often other genre fiction (which itself took it from literary fiction). It does NOT tell the author's own story. It tells the genre's story.

So, for example, Dune goes all into the nature of idols, how peoples are shaped by their environments, religion, the idea of the ubermensch, space Jews, and so on. Meanwhile, Princess of Mars takes all the tropes and character archetypes of pulp fiction and transplants it to an admittedly rather original world, and tells a bog standard pulp fiction story about...the American hero saving the day, and the princess.

>>12168152
Star Light by Hal Clement. Especially recommended if you're interested in the phase transitions of high pressure ammonia/water mixtures.

>>12168431
>the phase transitions of high pressure ammonia/water mixtures
Just what I was looking for.

>>12164811
based wizard

>>12164840
both dune and book of the new sun are kino

>>12164788
When I read this.

>>12164788
When I started reading Lem.

>>12168402
For you lmao

>>12168574
Which one's the best?

>>12168618
The ones featuring Pirx or Ijon Tichy as the protagonist.

>>12165087
This but without the old university jews

>>12168625
Which ones are those (aside from Tales of Pirx the Pilot)?

>>12168642
I haven't read them all yet, but Ijon Tichy is featured in at least The futurological congress, The Star Diaries and Memoirs of a Space Traveler.

>>12168618
they're pretty different
different enough to make Philip K. Dick think that Lem is actually a group of Soviet agents trying to infilitrate the american sci-fi market

Pirx and Congress were my favourite so far

>>12168625
Fiasco
Ijon Tichy's diaries
Observation on the Spot
The Futurological Congress
Peace on Earth
(the last two are GOAT)

>>12168779
>>12168765
>>12168734
>>12168625
Thanks.

>>12168152
Liu Cixin’s books are pretty hard. I didn’t like them personally, but that’s probably because I don’t like hard sf.

It is bad, though. SF writers get too obsessed with being clever and forget to add any human element. The characters are usually cardboard paste-ins merely to further the plot as an excuse to show off more false-cleverness. The beauty of clever science in SF is that it doesn't have to actually work, as opposed to being an actual scientist/inventor/engineer IRL. SF is where pseuds go to masturbate over their sweetheart theories that would be chopped into bits in five minutes by any actual engineer.
>>12166374
Vonnegut is vulgar trash.

>>12169170
You aren’t wrong about this but it’s simply a stylistic choice by them. I enjoy the autistic approach they employ because prose isn’t everything you jackass. I bet you hang on every word Hemingway wrote but can’t see the beauty in the simplicity of Asimov.

KYS.

>>12169182
Asimov is one of the exceptions to "cardboard characters" because he had both a heart and a brain.
>hurr you must like hemingway
I really hope you aren't implying Hemingway is bad. He's not the best but he's infinitely more valuable a read than SF writer #526 "it's another hardboiled detective genre fic, but with an evil empire, even cuntier women who are always the most beautiful woman ever, some self important prick of an MC who always has a clever plan, everyone acts depressed all the time because alcoholism is how you show you're enlightened and deep, and let's throw some quantum physics allusions and entry level data science concepts on top so lemmings think it's clever." And that was something you fuckstains on /lit/ specifically recommended.
Here, I'll say I like Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card. Why? He can actually write human characters with more complexity than a flat stereotype. He uses the science fiction elements to provide an environment for his characters. As opposed to most SF writers who just want to masturbate over how many wikipedia articles they've read and use the characters as an afterthought to prop up WOW SPACESHIPS AND HURR UHHHH RAY GUNSZZZ YUH. Knowing what centripetal force is and elaborating on it to make a fancy spaceship concept doesn't make you smart. It lets the rest of us know that's your idea of what "smart" is.
>talking about the humanity of a work
>"hurr prose isn't everything"
If you can't tell the difference between character development and prose please fuck off to your general and never again leave.

>>12169182
>because prose isn’t everything
>complaining about the lack of a human element means you only care about prose
This is autism. You can't even conceive of the humanity that science fiction lacks because you don't relate to it at all. Keep your "literature" in the containment thread where it belongs, or better yet in the trash can.

>>12169222
Wow you got your asshairs in a twist. It’s obvious that I’m saying Hemingway is great but your tiny brain makes the distinction between him and most science fiction because he’s “high art” and you view science fiction as beneath you. Again your crazed ramblings just make no sense and you can’t acknowledge it’s just a stylistic choice. Hemingway writes a lot like Asimov as in how dry they can both be; It’s funny because the archetypes you’re talking about come from the golden age era of sci-fi and the strong know-it-all male characters have fallen out of fashion since the 80’s you massive cocksmoker. Asimov was golden age and one of the big three. I feel bad that you can’t explore the ideas of Arthur C Clarke because “MUH CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT DUURRR” yah buddy you can only limit the scope of philosophical ideas to the human experience FUCKIN PLEB

>>12169258
His feelings are hurt

>>12169273
tl;dr go back to your containment thread

>>12169273
>H-he's in our sci-fi canon so you can't say anything bad about him!
No one cares about your "golden age". Notice how comic books use this same terminology? It must be endemic to non-literary endeavors.

>>12169299
>he starts memeing because he has no education in the genre

Wow I’m glad all that spiritual development you got out of reading serious literature prepared you so well. What’s sad is that it’s obvious you think you’re superior without any working knowledge of the genre; you’re just a troll parking as an intellectual. Contract AIDS at once.

>Read Japanese science fiction
>Characters are actual humans that develop and the science fiction ideas are almost secondary
>Read Western science fiction
>Autism. Look at my cool science idea. This is static character X9830 who will be serving as our protagonist. Also look at this cool idea. Did you see this idea?

>>12164829
>being this gay

>>12169292
no u

>>12169310
>has no education in the genre
Stop using serious terms for things that no one takes seriously. It looks silly.

>>12165009
Literary IS a genre

>>12169320
Does it hurt holding in all the turds in your tight ass? I can’t imagine taking myself so seriously in a world where literature definition won’t eveb get you laid anymore.

>tfw the best work of science fiction is an anime

>>12169332
>W-well you don't have sex!
So this is what science fiction readers resort to in the end?

>>12169320
Yah I mean I’m sure PKD sells more books than Tolstoy but like haha nobody cares right

>>12169314
>Japanese science fiction
Drop some recs nigger, what are you doing?
>>12169310
>reading serious literature
WAAAAAHHHHHH MOMMY THAT ANON SAID MY ROBOT SERIES BOOKS AREN'T SERIOUS LITERATURE MOMMY MMOOOOONNNNNNMMMMMMMSFADSDAF

>>12169342
0/10

>>12169341
Have fun reading crime and punishment for the third time so you can excite the guys wearing bow ties in your humanities department.

>>12164788
>When did you grow out of your "SCIENCE FICTION BAD" phase?

If anything, I grew into a science fiction is bad attitude. Not because thematically there is anything wrong with them - the themes and social commentary or questions they raise can be incredibly relevant and profound. Rather it is the delivery, the package that I find most disappointing. The prose, the plot, the general flow to the story. Rarely do you get a writer who can understand these and tie it in to an interesting science fiction topic.

>>12168720
There's also a second book featuring Pirx not mentioned or seen in the picture: 'More tales of Pirx the pilot'. If anyone knows about any other books with Pirx, I'd be thrilled to hear about them. He's by far the most likeable character I've stumbled upon thus far.

>>12169349
>>12169346
Samefag is samefag. Imagine being this triggered by people reading robo space operas because you’re so worried about the art you consume being taken seriously.

>>12169365
I'm more worried about whether I myself can take something seriously.

>>12169346
>Drop some recs nigger, what are you doing?
I was really just talking about visual novels.

>>12165780

Snob.

How can one make such ridiculous sweeping judgmental statements.

>You like X activity which is neither illegal nor can be considered harmful to ones self (physical or mental)

>I will now label you and judge your entire being as a person!

>>12169369
Sounds like a personal problem bro

>>12169382
It's a question of integrity.

>>12169387
Wow did you learn that from your deep understanding of borges or something?

Nice to see someone taking a stand on the important issues here

>>12169409
I learned it from personal reflection.

around 17

Read Asimov and Lem and they both fucking sucked

Post top tier sci-fi novels.

>>12169365
filename

>>12169424
This is literally a picture of us right now

Guess which one I am

>>12169455
The lengths people go through to feel important is absolutely astonishing

>>12164788
It's not bad overall, but its mainstream appeal and demographic (soi males and "smart" roasties) made a highly commercial genre, with few works worth anything.

>>12169461
I know man. Accusing someone of samefagging because you refuse to accept the reality that more than one anon thinks you're a cocksucking idiot. What a loser.

>>12169488
Sooo you’re saying that massively popular genre fiction is bad for appealing to the unwashed masses but you’re fine arguing strength in numbers to some anon

TOP FUCKIN KEK

>>12169501
Imagine needing to justify your shitty book genre this hard

>>12169507
Everybody hurrttssss everybody criiessss

Sooomeestimmess

>scifi reader acting like an autismo
what a surprise

>>12164788
never had one.

>>12164788
That's not something you grow out of, that's something you grow into.

>>12164840
Yes, but take this tip: In Dune, eventually, the protagonist will start foreseeing a bad thing. i won't tell you what it is. Only that after you see it being brought up once or twice, you can skip every paragraph about it from then on. It's filler that Frank thought we wouldn't notice.

>prone to deus ex machinas because of science
>tendency to inconsistency because of technology
>probability for lack of realism because of fiction
I'm not saying Sci-Fi is bad per se, but 90% is trash and 10% is noteworthy. Other problems consider lenghty explanations, outdatedness, nerdyness, perverse alien sex scenes, Mary-Sues....

I always liked science fiction and probably always will, because it's fun.

>>12165813
This is the only distinction that matters here. Everything else is just childish elitism from people who can't see the difference between a Spider-man 2 and an Age of Ultron.

>>12164788
I pretty much started reading with Sci-fi. It's been only like 1 year and half since I "dropped" this genre. I kinda regret reading so many sci-fi book, but even though on my shelf there many "useless" books, also there is a good number of pearls, wrote by really good writers. For example Lem and Dick, or maybe even Clarke, Gibson, Simmons, Henleinen and others. As a genre has its flaws, but often presents an incredible immagination and unironically "makes you think"

>>12166054
Is this how books work now? You need a snappy one-liner at the start, or people just drop them?

>>12168251
Isn't this kind of a category that most things can fall into, given enough time?

>>12165767
>Same way that there is good anime/manga
You fucked up there. There is no good anime or manga. It's all shit for edgy teenagers

>>12165767
>NGE, Berserk
cringe

>>12169333
which one?

>>12164788
If you don't read sci fi you're a massive cunt that needs to be de-cunted.

>>12169940

>>12169940
LoGH

>>12170032
>>12170038
cringe

>>12168152
Blindsight and other works by Peter Watts. Each comes with a bibliography to justify the technology depicyed within.

>>12169940
Boku no Bebop

>>12169170
>Literary writers get too obsessed with being clever and forget to add any human element. The characters are usually cardboard paste-ins merely to further the plot as an excuse to show off more purple prose.

>The beauty of clever science in SF is that it doesn't have to actually work, as opposed to being an actual scientist/inventor/engineer IRL. SF is where pseuds go to masturbate over their sweetheart theories that would be chopped into bits in five minutes by any actual engineer.

Read different science fiction. There are lots of writers who put autistic amounts of research into being plausible.

As long as the technology/science is a stand in or metaphor for a wider topic, Science Fiction can be damn good. If it is just technology that serve no greater purpose it really is missing an opportunity.

>>12169905
That's how some sci-fi works. A line in the first page or two that opens out the sci-fi elements of the world.

>>12169923
>There is no good anime or manga
>he said on an anime website.

>>12173767
There are also no good anime websites

>>12164788
I've always liked it.

>>12164788
Is Gravity's Rainbow Sci Fi?

>>12164840
>Dune actually good
"No!"