/lit/ - Literature

Islam bad.

>>12120466
>people raised on Western thought and religion can’t understand the ancient texts of other civilizations
Shocking

>>12120487
The Qur'an is a rip off of Western thought, you dolt.

>>12120520
Sure. I assume you’ve read and analyzed the Quran correct?

>>12120527
do you know anything about history?
or are you baiting?

>>12120549
I’ll take that as a no.

Schopenhauer, The World as Will and Representation, tr. E. F. J. Payne, vol. II (Dover, 1966), p. 162. This is from Chapter XVII, "On Man's Need for Metaphysics" (emphases added and a paragraph break):

" Temples and churches, pagodas and mosques, in all countries and ages, in their splendour and spaciousness, testify to man's need for metaphysics, a need strong and ineradicable, which follows close on the physical. The man of a satirical frame of mind could of course add that this need for metaphysics is a modest fellow content with meagre fare. Sometimes it lets itself be satisfied with clumsy fables and absurd fairy-tales. If only they are imprinted early enough, they are for man adequate explanations of his existence and supports for his morality.

Consider the Koran, for example; this wretched book was sufficient to start a world-religion, to satisfy the metaphysical need for countless millions for twelve hundred years, to become the basis of their morality and of a remarkable contempt for death, and also to inspire them to bloody wars and the most extensive conquests. In this book we find the saddest and poorest form of theism. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value. Such things show that the capacity for metaphysics does not go hand in hand with the need for it . . . ."

>>12120641
>. Much may be lost in translation, but I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value

>>12120487
Western thought and religion is based off the ancient text of the Jews

>>12120706
Western thought is based on the metaphysics of proto indo european

>>12120487
The Qu'ran is not ancient.

>>12120714
And Middle Eastern conception of divinity.

>>12120466
A friend of mine who's a native Arab speaker, who hates Islam with a passion and has read the Qu'ran in the original multiple times told me its language is beautiful. I'll take his opinion over what a twetieth century European writer thought of a twentieth century translation, thanks.

>>12120466
the bible is a compilation of the best books and stories the early christians and jews left us. The Quran is just one pedophile's ramblings.

>>12120737
blackpilled

>>12120737
>pedophile's ramblings.
so the koran is basically french lit in a nutshell?

Based Wansbrough.

>"The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'" he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/

>>12120466
>How can you have an entire culture based around this mediocre book?
It says it's okay to fuck 8 year old girls

Weird. All the non-muslim scholars who can at least read and write Arabic have all praised the poetic sublimity of the Quran and even if disagreed with the contents of the text itself: they all agree it is extremely beautiful piece of literature.

>>12121255
the original is said to sound nice when sung.
but if you strip the sound off by translating it, you're left with it's informational content.

>>12120727
I’m a native Arabic speaker myself, studied in Al-Azhar, memorized the Qur’an ever since I was a kid, and studied it (tafsir). And I don’t think it is.
You can deny that the Qur’an is poetry all you want (Al-Haaqqa, 41), but it is, and Muhammed was a mediocre poet and he knew it. That is why he condemned poets and their followers.
Abu Alaa Al-Maa’ri was a better poet than Muhammed. He even mimicked the Qur’an and it turned out better than the real thing. Even Abu Nuwas’ poetry is better than the Muhammed’s.

>>12120727
>told me its language is beautiful
It's basically avant-garde poetry as written by a crazy pedophile. It can be beautiful (in a sense) while also being very stupid and nonsensical.

>>12120466
Try reading it while you listen to arabic recitation.
>don't say that translation is the issue
But it is the issue, you lose all eloquence in translation.

>>12120737
Only bad if muslims do it( it is not allowed for muslims either except that one instance). Westerners can do whatever they want.

>>12121462
The difference is that westerners stopped doing it

>>12121462
It wasn't acceptable even in 1937, do your research about Hancock County.

>>12121240
I think it goes further than that. By ascribing the text to god himself, it essentially becomes meaningless. The powers of interpretation allow them to not only justify any behavior but believe it is sanctioned by god.

>>12121255
No one learns Arabic without being an orientalist. Those who p raise already had a near romantic attachment to it before they even opened the book.

>>12121511
Could you be more specific?

>>12120727
Even in Arabic like 25% is not understandable, they can sort of guess, but only sort of.

>>12121201
S*nni Lies, Aisha was 18. S*nnis made up the lie that she was 9 to make her look better, because she was a massive ho, who had sex before marriage, and so by having her lose her virginity at 9 that problem was solved. Like normal marriage age was minimum 12 for women, as in the Roman Empire, and Judaism.

>>12121462
This was an oddity marriage that the municipal government tried to overturn though but the bishop that married them was like " livin the dream bro"
Why else do you think it is a museum exhibit?

The Qu’ran is truly beautiful iwhen recited in Arabic. You don’t have to be a Muslim to appreciate that but speaking Arabic does help.

>>12121554
Why is it that whenever she talk, she is cleaning semen off of Mohammad?

>>12120466
أأعجمي وعربي ؟

>>12121853
بيزد آند محمد-پيلد

>>12121451
>But it is the issue, you lose all eloquence in translation.
>content doesn't matter

Read the Quran, it was pretty terrible.

Repetition after repetition after repitition

>if unbeliever/polytheist you will burn in hell for eternity
>all praise the most merciful

ad nauseum

>>12120466
has there ever been a definitive translation of the Koran into English?
I've never looked into its text in depth, but if I did I'd want to read something reliable.

>>12120466
>How can you have an entire culture based around this mediocre book?
because it isn't mediocre
from a point of view of someone who studied Arabic, the Quran is unparalleled.
i know a native arabic professor who makes an orgasmic face when he listens to it.
the verses carry such heavy meaning that if you change a single word it won't sound good.
the repetition also serves a lot purposes depending on context.
also every Arab person i ask to interpret something from the Quran always answers and it is basically the same answer.
the hard words actually wasn't hard or anything it is just the modern Arabs rarely learn or use them in the present society.

>>12123497
The thing about Arabs in the "Jahiliyya" period is that most of them were illiterate. Because of the nomadic nature of their tribes, they never truly settled down enough to establish the basic cultural norms of ancient civilizations. There wasn't much glorification of the written word.

However, if there's anything they were good at, it was poetry and memorization. The "Jahiliyya" were known for their ability to memorize entire texts in a heartbeat. The most acclaimed poems were obviously later written and hanged on the 'Kaaba' walls.

And this is were the Quran comes. It is said that all prophets have some kind of otherworldly abilities. Moses had that whole magik schtic going on. Mohammed (pbuh) had the Quran. Because, although he was illiterate, and couldn't lay proper verses to save his life, he presented this perfect recitation that is deemed to this day the greatest piece of Arab literature.

You don't need to like Islam or its practitioners to admit that a large wave of the first converts only embraced the religion because of how beautiful the text sounded to them.

>>12123497
I would just like to comment on the interpretation bit. It seems like this isn't so much a feat but rather evidence of the quran lacking depth. Perhaps it's easy to understand because it's a simple book. The Bible on the other hand has depth. You have to be well versed in OT history, theology and culture to understand the new testament. It is a development, continuation on the past and the NT is just soaked in OT verses, a lot of which would go over the average readers head. The quran claims that the Bible has been corrupted but this then makes me question gods morality. Why would he let his divine word not be corrupted once i.e OT,. But twice i.e NT? And after let 600 years of church history develop. Treatesies upon treatesies. Commentaries, homilies and the development of ecclesiology and be like "lol, jk. That was just a social experiment though. This Arabic guy who can't read and thinks Mary is the Holy Spirit is who you should be listening to."
It has always bothered me.

>>12123497
Yeah, well too bad your araboid teacher opinion is shit

>>12121240
It's almost as if there are bunches of different christian denominations with followings who have wildly different interpretations over the bible. It's almost as if religion by its very function opens itself up to contentious interpretation. And it's almost like people who have based their whole way of life on a specific holy book would have a superficial grasp of any other holy book, because there's no underlying conviction in reading it.

>>12123576
Mohammed sounds too much like Mani. He just doesn't carry the same mystics as Jesus or Zarathustra.

>>12123678
He seemed like a interesting person. If you read the sunnah his character is quite interesting.

>Collections of parables tailored to an audience of ancient illiterates
>As literature

>>12123708
>ancient
lmao the old testament is ancient

>>12123697
Oh, absolutly, but I just mean he doesn't have the prophet aura, if you get me.

>>12123576
>The Bible on the other hand has depth.
quran was revealed in about 23 years not in a small amount of time. there are tons of books about big to small verses to accidents related to the context of when, where and how it was revealed to history of previous prophets to future prophecies.
>The quran claims that the Bible has been corrupted.
I agree with your point but i have read a lot of theories about how the bible has changed and why god let it be, some are good some are stupid but there are arguments.read also about the historicity of the scripture from secular and religious point of view but i always steer to it being mainly not what Jesus (if he ever existed) told.
>Mary is the Holy Spirit
never saw that in the quran
>>12123666
don't know about that but
religion DebuNkEr Boy with stirner profile pic who didn't write anything of value
vs
an esteemed Arabic studies Prof.
show clearly who to take an opinion from

>>12124239
I don't know what your first paragraph is talking about so can you rephrase? But one thing I forgot to add is that the quran isn't clear, at least not to modern day Muslims. A lot of the information in the quran is vauge and has to be read within the context. The context being the hadith. Without the Hadith the quran literally makes no sense. There are events, people and verses that are inside the quran which make no sense without the quran. It's why you can't apply a sola scriptura type criteria on it since not even how you pray is in the quran. That comes from the tradition and hadith.

>I agree with your point but i have read a lot of theories about how the bible has changed and why god let it be
Please do tell me. I've only heard one and that was that god left enough information in the Bible for people to go heaven. But this doesn't even make sense since I read in the quran or hadith that heaven trembles whenever someone says allah had a child.

>read also about the historicity of the scripture from secular and religious point of view but i always steer to it being mainly not what Jesus (if he ever existed) told.
I have. A lot of my friends are really interested in textual criticism. Also, Jesus did exist.

>never saw that in the quran
>And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
[Qur'an 5:116]
Here it seems to imply that the writer of the quran thought that the trinity was God, Jesus and Mary.

All of you dont want to like it because you know its threatens your ideals. Thats why youll happily read buddhist and hindu texts.

>>12120466
What part of the Koran justifies hijacking airplanes and crashing them into office buildings?
>inb4 9/11 was done by the Jews

Having read the Qur'an in English translation only, it struck me as a defensive text hostile to its reader. I was being told over and over again that I was stupid for not believing what it said, often even before being told what exactly it said in the first place. This struck me as a bizarre insecurity.

There are moving verses in it, even in translation. But by and large I thought it was repetitive, and most of the narratives were like 'Abrahamism 4 dummies.' It almost reads like an abridged or streamlined version of Jewish history, with all the subtleties stripped out.

There's also a ton of stuff from latter-day apocryphal Christian texts, which I recognized because I happen to like that stuff. There is a borderline docetic / gnostic doctrine about Jesus not really having been crucified, and stories of Jesus breathing on clay birds to bring them to life, for example. There is also a weird version of the Sleepers of Ephesus, where the narrator says he isn't sure how many sleepers there were, naming a ton of different numbers, and saying only God knows exactly.

The stories of the prophets are also all 'censored,' so the unbecoming stuff is always noticeably absent.

Also, one of the strangest parts – and I kid you not, this is real – is that one of the short poetic suras is interrupted suddenly with a paragraph-long verse, breaking the poetic flow, yelling at the readers not to ask what the significance of the number '19' in the poem is. Apparently people had kept asking this, because the sura says that there are nineteen angels guarding hell – and the narrator goes on to imply that this number was placed there only to trip up readers and test their faith (the sign of faith presumably being you don't question these things). There is also an early verse that outright says some of the Qur'an is not understandable, and only God knows what it means, and that only troublemakers talk about the hard verses.

As someone not culturally familiar with the text, it was an utterly bizarre experience.

>>12123461
still waiting for any advice as to which translation of the Koran can reliably transmit its meaning in English.
if there are some versions that are popular that one should avoid, then I'd appreciate even that so long as you give me the reasons why they fall short.
but just giving a shortlist of what translations succeed at giving the sense of the text would be much appreciated.

>>12123708
>us enlightened moderns know what is right and true in the world
disgusting
also plenty of classic literature (eg illiad and oddysey) was recorded and transmitted through oral traditions

>>12125232
I've also read the Quran only in English translation. I think it's important to remember that it was revealed over a series of years, that it was kept only memorized until several years after the death of Muhammad, and that the final version we have today was collated by one of his followers from many different versions. Its repetitions and injunctions against single meanings serve memorization functions as well as restatement functions, since each verse was presented to the community independently across so many years and places. Another important fact about its 'apocryphal Christian'/gnostic content is that these were oral traditions popular all over the area of Christianity's spread. A similar (obviously later) one is that a bunch of medieval Christian traditions believe that Muhammad was a failed Christian monk who trained a bird to 'whisper' revelations to him by hiding bread in his ear so he could claim he had the Holy Spirit.
The popularity of these oral traditions outside of the revelations of Muhammad meant that he personally (or God through him) didn't need to recount the stories in full or institute a single definitive version of them (which would/did make a lot of petty squabbles).There are some places where the Quran is firm about these things, but that's because the stories are firm enough in the broad culture that such dissent isn't as likely. Just like Christianity carries a lot of narratives rejected by the Jewish and Roman mainstreams, 'Islam' carries along a lot of competing narratives that Christianity pushed out. Both of these religions are based in traditions much older than the proper nominal starting dates of 32/609AD (or whatever date you prefer for each of them).

So could I understand (most of) the Quran without reading the hadith? This part always confused me, if it is supposed to be the perfect book for untold generations, why do you need this other stuff that is susceptible to the same problems which apparently corrupted the bible?

>>12120706
The Jews based their texts on Israeli (not Judean) texts, Babylonian, Assyrian and Egyptian ones. Presumably Hittite and Phoenician in the mix as well.
Though it is good to know that Anonymous on 4chin has found the ultimate source for everything!

>>12124907
seems like you already know the answer

>>12120706
>Western thought and religion is based off the ancient text of the Greeks
ftfy
The jews added nothing new to the table of philosophy that wasn't already there.

are you surprised? the average IQ of Arabs is like 90. They haven't produced anything of value in 1000 years. 98% of worthwhile "Muslim" culture is Ottoman (Turkish), Persian, Andalusian, Greek. Most of the great "Muslim Golden Age" luminaries were non-Arabs with heretical beliefs, more interested in Aristotle than Mahomet.

>>12120472
Surely Islam is not as bad as you purport

>>12123677
You don't understand. It's not just that there are different interpretations, it's that the koran literally doesn't make any sense at times as large parts ofad dladk lk not adlfdak wordsldkj sdlfkj aslfkldilk aflkdfye Arabic and also the washing machine go to parsley utopia. That's why some outsiders have even advanced the theory that the koran isn't written in classical Arabic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran

>>12125264
still watching this thread for some advice about which translations are good and why

>>12125880
Dawood

>>12125880
There's no real definitive translation because unlike the bible there is not yet a critical text of the koran for translators to work off. Work on one is underway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Coranicum

However, in my opinion, Droge is definitely the best translation into English and the best researched and annotated.

https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/droge/

Avoid "The Study Quran" which is actually the thinly-veiled (no pun intended) "See? Muslims are just like us and Islam is actually progressive and completely compatible with the west Quran".

>>12121462
>Sneedville

>>12120472
This, but unironically.

Easily the worst book I've ever read. What a joke. It reads like a term paper written the weekend before it's due

>>12126101
Formerly Chuckton

>>12124286
>quran thought that the trinity was God, Jesus and Mary.
it states in other verses that Gabriel is the holy spirit and Christians wrongly worship it, also the verse doesn't specify the trinity, here it refers to over-glorification of mary and jesus to the point of being gods (noting that the quran considers the authority of priests to be too much ,so islam doesn't have priesthood owing to the quran's strict monotheism and also glorifying (or veneration) men is harshly criticized by Islamic theologians (except sufis))
>"vague" and "has to be read within the context".
they are not interchangeable, it is literature and has to be read with some prior knowledge.
>at least not to modern day Muslims.
i agree but only some verses where : there is a lot of references to things that doesn't exist in modern society(which are actually known today ), old or rarely used words(can be found in dictionary or known by reading other literature), ancient incidents(which are mostly famous) and being a kid.
I've seen some 9 year old kids who have memorized the whole quran and answer hard questions when they are asked.
i could say about 95% is generally understandable to a 15 year old arab schoolboy, the rest require more knowledge(noting that arab countries teach religion in school.
>>12125232
it is pretty understandable if you think that old texts are corrupted and you have the uncorrupted one, so you dismiss their modified stories and accept the uncorrupted narrative, also the christians before muhammed and jews before jesus are considered believers.
>one of the strangest parts
the chapter mainly talks about hell and 19 refers to the angel guardians of hell, but there is no significance to the number or anything.
>only troublemakers talk about the hard verses.
the verse refers to the ones who basically do "mental gymnastics" to make some weird interpretations to suit their preferences.
>>12125356
>So could I understand?
mostly but not all of it.
>why do you need this other stuff
because it is a book (anything spoken "language" require references)
>>12125520
Syro-Aramaic reading is hugely criticized in academic spheres.

>>12120466
Arabs were meant to do mathematics, not write literature tbf

>>12120641
"But I have not been able to discover in it one single idea of value"

Great job on being ignorant.

LMFAO

white bois with a jewish mindset who submit to cuckboi christ cant understand the quran, imagine my shock

lel

>>12120644
What is lost in this case is not very relevant to the judgement and wont counterbalance what already transpires from this book.

>>12125923
thanks for the recommendation
if you or anyone else wants to explain why the Dawood translation is valuable, or warn about any weaknesses of this version, I'd appreciate it

>>12125302
I think we should also be clear, that Mohammed was a fuckin retard and should in no way be held in the realm of Jesus, even if we are talking in very basic theological terms

>>12125302
>I think it's important to remember that it was revealed over a series of years, that it was kept only memorized until several years after the death of Muhammad

This is all probably false. It's the Islamic story f the text's origins, but there is no more reason to believe it's true than that the Pentateuch was dictated to Moses. The truth is that we do not know where the Qur'an came from or how it was assembled.

>>12125983
>Corpus_Coranicum
very interesting - thanks for sharing this. even though it's still in progress, it's fruits'll be valuable to many
>Droge
that looks useful.
since you're recommending it I'm assuming you already have a copy. would it be too much to ask for you to provide a snapshot of one of its pages to give us a sense of what the translation is like, and what sort of critical apparatus it has? the option to peek inside the book wasn't offered on Amazon, and I'm reluctant to spend $40 on something sight unseen.

>>12125232
>Quran is insecure

this also struck my eye. The Quran has none of the self-criticism and doubt that the Book of Job or Eccleciastes has.

From all the religious texts I read, the Quran definitely struck me as the most terrible and anti-intellectual one.

>>12126878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Ien1qo_qI

>explaining the stupidity of the West in just 17 minutes

Why have you not accepted Islam yet, kuffar?

>>12120566
He's right though. You'd only be making a point if Islam had began in China or something, but Islam is still "western" because of it's historical significance to the west as well as it's similarities to other "western" religions

>>12126895
I listened to that whole talk, and there didn't seem to be anything in the substance of his speech that could not have been applied to Christianity, or indeed any other religion trying to maintain itself within the condition of Western modernity.
in all it was a good talk, but it was hard to disagree with because the forces he's describing are all too obvious to Westerners who have kept their eyes open. it wasn't an attempt to proselytize or produce a defense of the faith, but an attempt to recontextualize what is happening to Islam now compared with what had already been underway within Christianity over 80 years ago.
it was very interesting to hear someone read Evola from an Islamic perspective, though he explains that Rene Guenon was positioned to be far more sympathetic to that religion.

>>12125983
Study Qur’an is fine.

>>12125880
still looking for any extra info on differing translations, if anyone has some advice to give

>>12120466
The Qur'an was written by Satan, but is still the final testament of the bible

>>12126803
It's the clearest and isn't filled with ye olde English. Some translators deliberately soften the original too.

>>12129002

>>12120466
Islam is peddled today as being a "religion of peace" despite its founder being a merciless warlord who conquered and pillaged the whole Middle East.

>>12120717
It's late antique, the line between ancient and medieval is very blurry

>>12121554

Didn't Aisha hate Ali for telling Muhammad to just break up with the thot?

>>12126862
Sure thing, 4channel friend.

>>12129420

>>12129424

ITT:
Syro-Aramic Reading of the Quran, a joke of a book refuted the moment it was released, is totally true
Muh 600 gorillion victims of Islam
The Quran says that the trinity is true
A book claimed to be from God is not as good as the Bible because it doesn’t admit any mistakes with itself as if there is any faults in God to begin with
The Quran isn’t actually well written despite it changing the world when it was revealed because of its elegance
The Quran is from Satan
Islam is actually Western

My Hebrew fanfiction is better than your Hebrew fanfiction!

>>12129011
thanks for the info
>>12129420
>>12129424
>>12129426
thanks so much :)

>>12125513
Agreed. Its worse.

>>12129503
>a joke of a book refuted the moment it was released
The basic idea that there are words and phrases of non-arabic origin was and is accepted by serious scholars (Luxenberg didn't even propose the concept, he just took it to extremes), as were several of Luxenberg's suggested readings.

Also, the response to the book was not universally dismissive, it was fairly polarizing.

>>Appendix: Summary of scholarly reviews of Luxenberg
>Baasten: Very positive, especially on individual readings
>Corriente: Strongly critiques L.’s theory of the hybrid language of Mecca
>De Blois: Dismissive
>Gilliot: Very positive with regard to the project in general
>Hopkins: As dismissive as De Blois.
>Jansen: Positive on the whole
>Neuwirth: Deeply opposed and scathing
>Stewart: Much more positive
http://orca.cf.ac.uk/78238/1/King%20A%20Christian%20Qur%27an.pdf

>The Quran is well written and elegant
>>12129426
>"No one disputes about the signs of God, except those who disbelieve."
Real elegant.

>>12126216
I think that when the quran claims that the holy Spirit is Gabriel it again shows its lack of knowledge of Christian belief. Even if you look in the OT you see a spirit of the Lord with God in genesis 1:2. You also see in Zechariah 4:6 God talking about "His" Spirit and distinguishes it from different type of forces such as might or strength and then we have in Ezekiel 11:5 the Spirit being personified. This all indicates that this Sprit isn't simply a force as some as asserted. Not a seperate entity or angel but something that is connected with God and if you blaspheme it it is equivalent to blaspheming God Himself as acts 5:3-4 states. We even have evidence from some early Jewish sources that believed that the memra of the Lord was not only a attribute but also God Himself: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memra

But the quran would say "nah, I let my word be corrupted and people fall into the error of calling Jesus and Gabriel God, lol jk."

Also, that verse is referring to the trinity so nice the theme is of the number 3 and associating partners with God. Whenever the number 3 is shown in the quran it's always in reference to Christian theological beliefs. What else could the quran be referring to when God asks Jesus "did you tell people put you(1) you're mother(2) besides me as God's (3)?

Also, the quranic definition of shirk is quite silly. It widens the gap of what is polytheism and can even get caught in it's own trap. If having priests and speaking highly if Mary is a sin then viewing Muhammed how you do is also shirk since not only do you send your blessings to him after each time you say his name but even after each daily prayer you mention him as well. There's even a dua to ask for the prophet Muhammed's intercession on the day of judgement. In fact God tells all the angels to prostrate before adamn and Satan even rejects this command.

Now, imagine if another religion came about in the future, with their own definitions of polytheism and imposed it on your religion. Would you listen? You would laugh it off and say they don't know what they're talking about.

>>12120641
How can people say stuff like this whilst being totally ignorant of their absolute bias? The only reason this chucklefuck "couldn't find" anything of value in the book is because he went in expecting not to find any. It's dishonest, and just poor form.

>>12129677
CRINGE

>>12129895
Do you have an argument?

finally a thread about koran which wasn't started by a muslim shill
I always found it weird why people liked koran and I realize they are were peddling their agenda

>>12130095
Islam is a religion of peace

>>12120466
>Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn.
Same can be said of the Torah.

>>12129677
How the fuck are you able to identify the cause of his distaste for the book? Is it always the case that when someone doesn't like something they're just not trying hard enough or something? Or are we just not allowed to have strong opinions?

>>12120472
Your meme doesn't work here friend, because Islam is so unequivocally bad that it's palpable.

>>12120472
Islam good, gay good, me food.

>>12120466
The Quran is a counterfeit book of lies.
It states that the Bible is true, while stating that Islamic teachings are true. However, biblical teachings contradict the Islamic teachings. So the Quran can't be true.
(See https://bisqwit.iki.fi/story/apologetics/satanicislam/))

>>12130012
>>12130861

>>12121430
Isn't it the case that there were 3-4 different manuscripts of the Qu'ran as well, around the time?

>>12123497
So tired of this wankery, kill yourself, it sounds impressive because the language is fucking barren and based on it

>>12126831
the Islamic story of the text's origins say that every year of his life after revelation Muhammad routinely recited everything up to then and then finalized a version on his deathbed by reciting it twice in the 'correct' order. or rather, there are multiple 'Islamic stories' of its origin.
academic sources disagree with this account in a few ways, but do put the origin of the current text within the seventh century (thanks carbon dating)

>>12121462
>One example speaks for the majority

The Qur'an is cool, from what little I've read. Basically just telling infidels to burn in hell. I like it when God is honest about hell and not trying to cover it up with that equality stuff.

"They say: ‘The Fire shall touch us for a few days only.’ Say to them: ‘Have you a compact with God? God does not go back on His pledge. Or do you impute to God that which you know not?’ Rather, he who engenders an evil deed, and his sin engulfs him - these are the inhabitants of the Fire, dwelling therein for ever. But those who believe and do good works, they are the inhabitants of the Garden, dwelling therein for ever."

It's does sound silly when by 'sin' you don't include vile hatred of everything that isn't like you. But that is the only flaw in this otherwise pure book.

>>12126895
I believe one thing (aside from more recently generated antipathy) that holds European people from viewing Islam as a "third heritage" to be investigated let alone embraced is because of the lingering civilizational memory of just-barely averted military conquests led by the Ottomans.
the twin assaults on Vienna by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1529 and Mustafa in 1683 may as well have been modern repetitions of the successful defeats of the twin Persian invasions of Ancient Greece.
I believe the justifiable pride Europeans feel from successfully warding off these invasions tends to intensify their resistance to this religion - as though having anything to do with it would be a betrayal of everything their ancestors fought against. it was tends to hold people back from viewing it too closely.
people shouldn't be amazed that geopolitical considerations and the broader civilizational context has a lot to do with whether people want to have anything to do with their religion. you might as well be trying to convert the Chinese to Shintoism, for goodness sake...

>>12120520
"Western" thought is a rip off from Mediterranean thoughts.

>>12134461
Hmm... both of those places are you Europe you dumb nigger

>>12121271
WOW. Not a SINGLE REFUTATION. Faggots.

What translation are you guys even reading?

I like how the Qur'an flows personally. It reads like a bunch of tweets by someone venting. Listening to people reading it in Arabic sounds great

>>12134162
>Ottomans
>Islamic
lmao
>>12134461
LMAO

>>12120520
most thoughts are a ripoff of other thoughts

>>12125232
>>12125520
>it's that the koran literally doesn't make any sense at times as large parts ofad dladk lk not adlfdak wordsldkj sdlfkj aslfkldilk aflkdfye Arabic and also the washing machine go to parsley utopia. That's why some outsiders have even advanced the theory that the koran isn't written in classical Arabic.

What if the person writing it was divinely mad? Like prophetic madness similar to what you see in the Greeks. Are there any books on Muhammed being insane? Have any Islamic mystics written about this?

>>12120641
schopie is incredibly based

Nice spooks nerd

>>12134461
>Implying Greece is not western
General consensus says you're wrong.

you either
a.) bias
or b.), read a shit translation,
or c.) both

>>12135610
Only angry incels like the qua ran.

bump

>>12120466
isn't it supposed to read like a poem ? Muslims always rave about how beautiful it is when read out loud in Arabic. A language that is still widely spoken today.

>>12135046
>>Ottomans
>>Islamic
>lmao
you mind explaining what you mean, or are you just going to memepost Spengler?

>>12129677
dude. how can you not like Schopenhauer for his pursuit of truth. elsewhere he criticizes Christianity but he never fails to admit when it has something right. He obviously is a bigger fan of Buddhism, but at the same time he admits when it's wrong. You really think this motherfucker--as much as he was in general against religion--wouldn't have said something he thought to be true? Who do you think he was writing for?

>>12135624
>Only large theological force in the world that proposes arranged marriages, thus guaranteeing it's practitioners a m8
>incel
Anon I...

>>12125264
I have the Oxford classics version and that seems to be fairly literal and academic. The is also the study Qur'an I have heard that it's good but others disagree because of Muslim types or something.

>>12129895
>>12131445
>>12130861
>>12138320
disregard that, i suck cocks

>>12138323
>hurr semantics
Arranged marriages is as incel as you can get.

>>12120466
I'm fucking tired of this meme.
>muh repitition
There's repitition but people act like every line is "God good disbelievers bad." If there is excessive religion it's very clearly intentional written to covey a common theme with rhythm
>no idea except God good disbeliever bad
The Quran literally has multiple chapters dedicated to specific aspects of political handling and theology and mythology. The idea that Tauheed is the only idea presented is false.
>they abridge the original stories
No they change them. One of the main clauses of the Quran is that the original stories have been edited so it changes necessary details like the flood being local and Lot not handing over his daughters to be raped.

>>12131344
>it states the Bible is true
It states it WAS true until it was changed.

>>12121462
>A backwards freakshow in buttfuck county did it too, how dare you criticize our sacred holy founder for pedophilia?

>>12121247
It never specifically says that. Early Jewish texts do though.

The Koran definitely sounds good to someone like me. I can read Arabic but not understand it.

But I read recently about the lack of historical evidence for the history of Mohammad and early Islam. Holy shit, JUST does not begin to describe things

>>12139957

Forgot to say: When the Qur'an is read out in that fucking loud, drawn out way, it is like nails on a chalkboard.

>>12139957
Are you actually suggesting Muhammad didn't exist?

polyandry = cringe
polygamy = based

So what is your favourite Qu'ran ayah?
I don't really have one, but I dig the references to legendary battles and those descriptive of Islamic paradise. Comfy as shit.

>>12139849
>finding a partner and having sex with them makes you involuntarily celibate
Are you actually retarded? Do words not have meanings anymore? It’s not semantics you baboon.

>>12140066
Are you autistic or just pretending.

>>12129141
What you are missing is the layers of meaning when the word "peace" is mentioned.
Peace is attainable when everyone is dead. Boom. Peace.

Sounds so based

https://youtu.be/MMyHqqgbWUs

>>12139970
cringe, yet redpilled?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_to_Islam

>>12128985
The Dawood translation is good, available on Penguin.

>>12138340
>>12140277
Thanks for your input, frens

>>12123497
You sound like a /k/omrade talking about the second amendment.

>>12140190
the artificial echo effect is lame

>>12129130
I agree

>>12129141
Islam isn't a religion of peace but it's not a religion of endless conquest either. Muhammad was perfectly fine with other religions(even non Abrahamic ones like Zoroastrianism) in his kingdom and even gave them regions of full autonomy. If you made peace treaties he'd let you be autonomous without being part of the kingdom. Hell he even let the Zoroasters practice their weird sibling incest in their own homes. If you fought against him though you may as well wish your tribe and land goodbye. You'd either be assimilated into the empire,given heavy war indemnities or if you failed to comply well you know...

>>12121462
Formerly chucksville

>>12120466
Yeah? You read the whole thing in Arabic?
Oh, wait no, you're a brainlet that read a transliteration.

>>12129503
>because it doesn’t admit any mistakes with itself as if there is any faults in God to begin with
Protip: it didn't actually come from god

>>12126277
Enlighten us

>>12121462
Marriage doesn't necessarily involve sex, and I seriously hope you don't believe that she gave birth at the age of 9.

>>12120487
>One bunch of Humans can't possibly understand something written by another bunch of humans because one group is so special they're incomprehensible, especially to modern analysis
Seriously kill yourself retard