/lit/ - Literature

>>12127523
no, he's left

>>12127531
underrated

>>12127523
>straight people are allowed to just exist
And that's a good thing.

The gold standard for how to handle gay characters is still The Wire. Two major characters are gay. That's it. They don't constantly draw attention to it and they have character outside of being gay. But their homosexuality isn't just a tick box either. Omar and Kima would be subtly different characters if they were straight (Omar wouldn't be as reviled by the gangs)

>>12127531
so this is where we are now. This is 4channel.

>>12127633
no THIS. IS. SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
*downvotes*

>>12127786
>*downvotes*
back to where to came from
pic related

>>12127627
Oz had a pretty lit gay love plot where they kept trying to murder each other, would watch again.

>>12127889
Awesome memeing

>>12127523
Of course not.

Despite what fags say being a fag IS agaisnt the norm. Just poiting out your character is gay and nothing really comes of it is just pointless.

>>12127523
if it doesn't matter to the plot either way, why bother making a person gay when there's no need to?
it's clearly just propaganda at that point.

>>12127523
>>12127531
>>12127535
>>12127539
>>12127627
>>12127633
>>12127786
>>12127889
>>12127892
>>12127893
>>12127894
>>12127896
>>12127904
isn't there some youtube comment section you could take this discussion to?

>>12127523
Can we just stop pretending that being gay is acceptable? Faggots are fucking disgusting. If you want to live your life as a pervert then go ahead but don't tell everybody about it. Nobody likes homosexuals, let's stop accepting them.

>>12127926
fuck off straightfag 4chan(nel) is for homos

>>12127929
No this is a place for straight gentlemen who enjoy girls (male) with little feminine penises.

Gay people are only about 5% of the population. Having them in your work is unrealistic a lot of the time. Most people don't have a gay friend, a gay neighbor, etc.

This is why gay issues and gay characters, not to mention trans and other characters with even rarer identities, strike us as obtrusive on a gut level in the way black characters,asian characters, whatever characters don't. The only place gay people are so present are certain settings and in the media.

It's fine if your work has a tacitly utopian aim, or is trying to reflect the entire panorama of society, or exists with gay people in mind as an audience, but the truth is that if you're writing for the general population, gay people usually are irrelevant to the story. It's just a little shibboleth of liberalism, "oh I respect gay people too" that distracts from the story.

This is coming from a hard leftist, btw, not some crank.

>>12127948
that pic is awesome.
and agreed with what you say, as well.

>>12127523
The only good gay characters are the ones that serve as a warning not to participate in degeneracy.

>>12127523
pretty straightforward
it doesn't always add to the plot, but sexual orientation, if it is apparent, always adds to how a character feels and to his or her personal history. So I would say it is unrealistic to say it "just is" in any case. Straight people "aren't" just. It's often a glanced over subconscious choice no matter how you put it. I don't see how ANYONE could have a problem with someone "just" being gay for the f of it in anything. If this is confusing for you, you are a retard. The story changes when they are shoehorned in to seem open-minded or whatever. Some gay people's lives are very similar to straight people's lives, for others it's an essential part of their identity and daily life.

>>12127926
>>12127929
>>12127935
mfw it's a place for all of the above

>>12127523
as long as they don't make a big thing of it when it's not relevent it doesn't matter

>>12127627
omar, rawls, kema, probably snoop ... at least 4 bro

>>12127948
>hard leftist
>not a crank
Pathetic.

>>12127523
shit's boring dude who cares

>>12127948
>Gay people are only about 5% of the population. Having them in your work is unrealistic a lot of the time. Most people don't have a gay friend, a gay neighbor, etc.

5% is 1 in 20. If you don't know 20 people you must be a real loser.

a more realistic book would be one where everyone was slightly gay due to being exposed to thousands of images of porn cock since puberty

>>12127627
>television

>>12128133

Most stories aren't about 20 people, and even if a story contains that many characters, pretty often their sexual orientation or even romantic status isn't particularly relevant.

>>12127948
>Gay people are only about 5% of the population. Having them in your work is unrealistic a lot of the time. Most people don't have a gay friend, a gay neighbor, etc.

This is a really shitty argument. Aside from the fact that LGBT people in general likely represent over 5% of the population in the west, are you seriously trying to convince me then that you don't know twenty fucking people? That your book wouldn't have twenty fucking characters?

>>12127523
Actual good point if you actually want to live in the sort of progressive liberal society that accepts people for no good reason even if they're a detriment to society and an affront to the almighty.

>>12128133
>>12128142
fags aren't evenly distributed. most of them band together in urban centers.

>>12128147
>if they're a detriment to society and an affront to the almighty.
you are talking about gay people right

>>12127523
But gay people IRL almost always have some reason or life event which made them gay.

something is slightly off about this board today. im getting the feeling of coming home only for all the furniture to be arranged slightly differently.

>>12128174
Yes.

>>12128184
This.
Fuck "4channel".
Hiro failed to realize that /pol/ and /b/ did not just exist to contain themselves, but also to keep others away from 4chan as a whole.
I fear the end of days are soon coming.

>>12127918
found the faggot

>>12127523
That person is technically correct. But if the sexuality of a character is not relevant enough to be brought up specifically, well then it shouldn't be mentioned in the first place. So it's a self-defeating argument.

>>12128196
People will just have to make the rest of the blue boards as normie-repulsive as /pol/ and /b/ were.

People just don't enjoy it when you make it feel like a character is there for political purposes.

>>12128196
/pol/ didn't keep people away.

>>12128196
It's hilarious that he thinks "4channel" is going to attract normies just because the porn boards are hidden. 4chan is the arse of the internet. It's like putting a swamp monster in a wig and a cute dress.

>>12128299
Countless normalfags use 4chan. anyone who says otherwise is new as well. it hasn't been a secret club for 10 years at least

>>12127523
It is a problem if being gay is a defining trait of the character despite it being unrelated to the plot.

>>12127904
You repressed homosexuals still don't get it.
When a gay person is born, they aren't born gay for this or that specific reason or to serve some "plot", they just are.

With that logic:
>why bother making a person het when there's no need to?

>>12127633
>This is 4channel
I didn't notice till today, when the fuck did this happen?

>>12127523
non-heterosexuality is of little consequences except as a negation of the heterosexual ideal

>>12128299
The point isn't to attract normalfags, but to attract more mainstream advertisers to the site that otherwise wouldn't associate with somewhere that contains cartoon kiddie porn

>>12128322
Why do you think people are born gay? There is no scientific backing for that claim.

And why do you think gay people are inherently discernible from straight people in their behavior? Any character whose sexuality is not specified could be gay, straight or whatever. A character with unspecified sexuality is not automatically "made hetero". No, the author either did not want to disclose it, didn't deem it important or didn't even care when he created the character.

>>12128324
recently.

>>12127523
no one thinks characters shouldn't be gay for no reason, they think they shouldn't be gay to push some stupid agenda. and they're right.

>>12128299
Nay sir. It All that is in the past. You must be one of the newcomers.

They come Reddit, or they heard about us in a YouTube comment section, show up and make this their home here, then slowly subvert the niche community that made it such a cool place to begin with.
Been happening at least since 2012.

>>12128324
Yesterday or today.

>>12128268
Or migrate to a new site alltogether.

>>12127627
All black men are gay, anon. Have you seen their women?

"Straight" black men are just larping faggots who're afraid of getting called out. Besides, the average nigger's diet of cheeseburgers and 40s means he has the estrogen levels of a female elephant.

There is no creature more effeminate and homosexual than the american black.

>>12128322
No need to write the character as gay or het at all if it isn't going to affect the story. Not the writer's fault if you assume that a character is het or gay when it isn't specified.

>>12128388
>They come Reddit, or they heard about us in a YouTube comment section, show up and make this their home here, then slowly subvert the niche community that made it such a cool place to begin with.
But in the past the cylce was that edgy teenagers get attracted by the edgy boards and then once they grow up and become jaded they join the blue boards.

>>12127523
what is the measure for judging something right or wrong? morality or materialist gain?

>>12128133
>>12128142
If we are going to use the statistics argument, I'm happy to have gays portrayed as they are, as long as they accurately reflect things like the CDC statistics on how gays are the major sexual disease spreaders for such a small proportion of the population, or how the marriage statistics show many of them are "eternal bachelors" (and going by gay culture, also being sex obsessed perverts that are into shit like pozzing, pedophilia, or underground sex clubs), or the high levels of mental illness in both male and female gays. The happy stable gay couple that are "just like you and me" that is portrayed in literature and media doesn't quite capture what gay culture is like. I guess that is par for the course for leftist-backed propaganda though: communism is never shown with its gulags, black criminals are just misunderstood scholars and mixtape makers, and all immigrants are 150 IQ doctors.

>>12128418
Exactly. Where in the past they may have assimilated via the hazing boards, now theyre coming in completely uninitiated.

I say again, the end is near.
Personally I'm considering 8 chan. Or some other less well known image board.

>>12127523
to an extent. while yes some people have double standards when it comes to something like this, simply because some do doesn't mean the point itself - characters shouldn't be gay for no reason - isn't valid. I would say if a character were straight for no reason it would too be disagreeable.

they don't seem to know it but their argument is only valid when it comes to the hypocrites they mention. once you get past them their argument fails.

>Having a character who commits abominable sins as a lifestyle choice in your book for no reason is good
Wrong.

>>12127627
>Omar and Kima would be subtly different characters if they were straight (Omar wouldn't be as reviled by the gangs)

I used to work as a prison guard. Gangs are GAY AS FUCK. The reason why there's so much rape in prison is because up to 50% of members of some gangs are gay. It's most common among black gangs and least common among asian gangs, but still extremely disproportionately common among them all.

>>12128142
I've met plenty of people, and I've only met one person in my life that I knew was gay, and that's because he acted like a flamboyant faggot. It's possible there were more but there's no way I'd know is there? Why would it even be any of my business? But of course in writing you need to shove your characters' sexual proclivities down the reader's throat to make your insipid political points, right? This is why this type of literature is worthless. It isn't art, it's just a piece of propaganda.

>>12127523
biology dictates; straight is the norm like it or not, so to add a detail which is not obviously apparent such as sexual orientation (which means it would need to be explicitly stated) and have it amount to nothing significant is poor story telling. If I was writing a teen-drama set in a highschool and had a wheelchair bound student and over 5 seasons not one episode dealt with the potential struggles and challenges being chairbound imposes that isn't the sign of a progressive writer, but the sign of a bad one.
TL;DR Deviations from the norm should be utilized not trivialized (if you desire to be a good story teller and not some hack "progressive)

>>12129264

"utilized not trivialized" is an earnest go at doing this thing right, but from a technique standpoint the iceberg theory should be employed so that a gay character is not explicitly gay unless need be and possibly not at any obvious level.

>>12127523
If a character is gay, have that character be more than just "the gay character." The problem with SJWs are they have zero ability to create compelling and flawed characters, because they themselves have no character at all. They're fucking shallow empty NPCs.

Furthermore, even if they wanted to by creating a gay character with flaws, they believe it'll distract from their message of painting these characters under nothing short of a positive light. Why can't a gay person be the villain for once? Why can't he do something unethical? God forbid he's shown as being RELATABLE or human?

Progressive SJWs can't create anything worthwhile...they only know how to destroy, and this is why.

Why apply this specifically to homosexuality? Can't you make the same argument about any sexual behavior? But of course it's only about homosexuality because that's what being pushed politically right now.

>>12129313
Progressives don't send death threats over discrimination against heterosexual healthy relationships portrayed in media.

>>12129330
>implying that there are "healthy" homosexual relationships

>>12127523
I don't see anything wrong with this sentiment, but it's very hard writing a character with homosexuality as a passive character trait without having it become commodified, or a object of spectacle because of outrage over the gay character not being portrayed "properly" from SJWs. Including gay characters as a selling point and promoting an LGBT agenda are indestinguishible at this point, and if you try to do neither, someone else will promote it as commodity/spectacle whether you like it or not.

>>12127539
that's the point. it's a mundane insertion that shouldn't bother any rational person with emotional stability

Every show, and I mean EVERY show, should just be 2 niggas kissing. All gay nignogs, all the time.

>>12129378
diverse and rainbowpilled

I want to try to make an actual argument as to why you should avoid adding characters who are gay for no reason.

Authors who want to write stories which capture one specific aspect of the human condition or explore a certain idea, should avoid including details which might deserve critical study in and of themselves but may have no special meaning to the author. Imagine if Shakespeare had made Banquo gay. To Shakespeare himself it might have to meaning, and it might have been an unmindful action, but to the thousands of literary critics studying his work, its suddenly a statement on the treatment of LGBT people in his time, and they try to psychoanalyse banquo and macbeth through a distinct lens just because of this one innocuous detail. While the poster's sentiment is right, he is making an error my neglecting the fact that many authors just keep straight characters to keep their ideas focused and not dilute it with meaningless details.

Most characters aren't straight for no reason either. There's no point in bringing up a character's sexuality if it isn't pertinent to the story. Mark Hamill said Luke can be whatever sexuality you want him to be, and that's because it doesn't matter.

>>12129378
Just wait a few more years

>>12127948
>>12128153
Fucking rural idiots.

>>12127948
>neet doesn’t know 20 people
>Gets extremely salty when media doesn’t represent perfect ratios of gayness to straightness

>>12128142
Are you going to discuss the sexual orientation of all 20 of those characters? If being gay is just some normal part of a person's identity then surely you could have a character who is gay who you never learn to be gay because it never presents itself as an integral part of the narrative. I think this is the problem that most people have with homosexuals in modern media: whenever they are in a story their sexuality is used as cheap virtue signaling instead of being a natural part of the story.

This thread has turned into a ben shapiro video comment section

He actually has a point. Gay people just exist. They dont need nor want to ask you for permission for being gay. Majority of posts in this thread assume the standpoint of someone who can have power over who exists who doesnt and who should ve represented etc. In the end gay people are just regular people and exist in every industry. Theres gay writers directors and whatnot and theres nothing you can do about it even if you wanted to. So yeah this is not even a topic of discussion you either accept it or you go mad and bitter but it wont change the fact gay people exist as autonomous people with will and power

>>12130570
Unless the point about the literary work is about being gay, there's no reason at all to discuss the sexual orientation of the characters

>>12130553
O, great one! Please do not idle, allowing us to proceed as sheep, dilluded by our homophobic thoughts! Enlighten us on the truth that you possess of the usefulness of homosexuals in literature!

>>12130570
No, he doesn't have a point. A character shouldn't be gay for no reason because in good literature everything should be done with intention

>>12130575
>usefulness in literature
>>12130579
For realism. No one exists "for a reason". And in all literature, not in "good literature", everything has a reason to be even if its implicit or hidden because literature itself is a collage of symbols

>>12128196
>, but also to keep others away from 4chan as a whole.
If so /pol/ has failed its aims spectacularly

>>12130570
>They don't need nor want to ask you for permission for being gay.
that's not really even the argument being had, at least not by everyone. there is another one being had by people like me saying that if a character in something is notably gay, and their gayness adds nothing to the story, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the first place. this isn't exclusive to gay people, or sexual orientation. this "rule" has actually been in media / entertainment for quite some time.

you're only tackling a fraction of what people are saying, so your message comes off, to me at least, as kind of disingenuous. it's not about "you have to do this" or "you have to do that" but simply if x is put in a story and affects the story in no real way, it's reasonable for people to find it as a negative aspect.

>>12127926
every moment it infests his mind - images thrust upon him as if by demons - the ghastly sight of a MAN... FUCKING... a MAN! I mean... its ok if its happening somewhere I can't see, BUT I JUST CANT BEAR TO WITNESS THE HORROR - THAT GAY DUDE! I CANT BE GAY! THAT ISNT ME YOU HEAR! I'M ME! THE ONLY ME THAT MATTERS!

homosexuality isn't real

>>12130410

>>12128184
agreed, it's very uncomfortable

>>12130830

>>12130442
AIDS patient.

>>12130410
>Mark Hamill said Luke can be whatever sexuality you want him to be, and that's because it doesn't matter.
Luke is portrayed as being attracted to Leia before he finds out she's his sister.

>>12130644
>u r obsessed about gays and ur gay urself xDDD
I don't want sexual deviancy to be normalized or accepted. That's it. It's a moral value that I have created for myself and I want to enforce it upon others to the best of my ability.

Does percentage of x in the population really matter? While I imagine it would raise eyebrows, one could write a story set in West Africa where the major players in the plot are Minority of Chinese present there.

>>12132444
That actually sounds pretty interesting, desu

>>12130830
Unironically upvoted.

>>12132444
Stories about minorities involving minorities are obviously fine. Stories that do not involve characters sexuality that feel the need to just add a throwaway line/character solely to perpetuate some stereotypical form of identity are retarded. Not only are they silly and self-masturbatory, they also date work horribly.

>>12127523
Yeah, gay people just exist, feeling like a gay character needs some grand justification in the story is pretty pointless.

>>12127523
On one hand, he sounds like a massive faggot. On the other, he is right. I hate gay characters whose entire purpose is that they are gay.

Because, infantalizing pandering is the same thing bigoted segregation.


And we can all SEE that.

>>12129225
Underrated

>>12127627
Rawls sucks dick