/lit/ - Literature

>>12083283
you kill yourself first, i'll follow i promise

>>12083283
>all pain is bad

Birthing Pains for example.

>>12083283
there is no reason to care about suffering because there is no meaning in life or truth underying anything. your wailing is nothing to the void, the wailing of ten billion more humans is nothing to the void. we have as much reason to stop suffering as to cause it, which is to say none at all.

>>12083295
antinatalism != pro-mortalism

>>12083283
Any moral system based in utility is brainlet-tier.

>>12083283
biological imperative

>>12083340
not an argument

>>12083332
why is that?

>>12083283
I don't dismiss Antinatalidm wholly but there's some flaws with the picture or at least some details that need scrutinizing:
Why do you equate presense of pleasure with absence of pain, both are good but where are the intermediate steps? Even if pleasure and pain would sufficiently be described by four values why do you equate the things you do?

>>12083420
>not an argument

Why is that not an argument?

>>12083283
>he doesn't enjoy pain
Go die then. It doesn't get better

>>12083439
Adding onto that: it seems the argument hinges on absence of pleasure being not bad. You'd expect symmetry and this is the odd one out which gives clout to the antinatalist position. Why can't absence of pleasure be bad? Why is it 'not bad'?

Why only pleasure and pain? Let's say we add 'Existence' as a 'philosophical' attribute. Existence is good, non-existence is bad and antinatalism would crumble.
Of course this presupposes a conclusion in its premise/setup but it seems like the original picture already does the same thing.

>>12083297
being a nihilist isn't an argument

>>12083332
You can't "base" anything on utility.
Utility is a measurement of progress towards some goal. You need to have already defined that goal to be able to measure the utility of actions.

>>12083449
This

>>12083283
suffering is punishment, penance and reward in one

>presence of pain
>bad

>absence of pain
>good

HOO BOY THAT'S A PRETTY BIG FUCKING ASSUMPTION THERE LADDIE

>>12084834
>basilisk-compliance
lost

I don't think there can be a moral imperative to not have children, but from my own life experience I do find antinatalism to be personally convincing, and I thus have no intention of having children. There's a possibility that if I had a child he would end up having a life that he could look back on with happiness, but there is also the possibility that he would have a life similar to my own -- or worse -- and the only means of precluding that is to never bring him into existence.

Seriously, OP? You think you can just label something "good" or "bad" or "not bad" without providing any justification?

Is that honestly how you think ethics works? You think ethics is just saying "x is good and y is bad"?

For whom is the absence of pleasure "not bad"? How can you have a concept of "good" or "bad" when talking about something that does not exist?

You are a fucking moron.

>>12083283
Good and bad are not good units of measurement you fucking idiot.
Just because you aren't in a constant state of euphoria doesn't mean that life isn't worth living you little shit. Just fuck off and die if you don't like life so much

>>12083283
>youtube comment philosophy

Sweet reminder that philosophy is not /lit/

okay anglo

>>12083459
>>12084907
>>12084915
based

>>12083283
>absence of pleasure
>not bad
That's your error.

>>12083283
>absence of pleasure
>not bad
Don't agree with this premise.

>>12083439
yeah, OP has clearly never had his ass fisted, antinatalist logic btfo

>>12083283
Pleasure is a biological thing that happens in your brain, you don't need bad things to happen to ackowledge pleasure. Pleasure isn't dependent to pain.
Your chart is silly

>>12083283
Pleasure != Absence of Pleasure

>>12085308
Anyway, not talking about natalism and shit, i'm exclusively talking about your chart

>>12085311
*Absence of Pain != Presence of Pleasure

>>12083283
>Pain = Bad
If there were no pain, this board would have no great works to discuss.

>>12085245
>>12085272
Pleasure monkeys

>>12083283
What kind of idiot says “absence of pleasure” is the negative term “not bad” (which isn’t even right, it should be “not good”) and then says absence of pain is the positive term “good”? The right half of this matrix should be uniformly the simple “not” or “void”.
Further, the splitting of things into “pleasure” and “pain” is retarded. Every free subject has the radical power of recontextualization, and one’s happiness is in no way dependent on one’s circumstances—are all the rich happy? Are there not joyful saints among the poor? If good or ill were things that simply happened to someone, the antinatalist argument might hold water, but they are not, because as free subjects we have the liberty to interpret our circumstances however we wish, and so it is no one’s fault but his own if he finds life bad.

>>12083283
Absence of pleasure sounds pretty shitty to me.
Not to mention if you hate life there's always a way out. If you're never born you don't really have a say in the matter.

>>12085433
>>12085677
Isn't "absence of pleasure" being "not bad" correct?
The way I think about it, we live most of our lives not feeling neither constant pain nor pleasure.
Right now for example, I am not in any kind of pain, but I can't say that I'm feeling "pleasure".
Not feeling pain is always good, because pain is a bad thing that literally every single living organism tries to avoid in one way or another, whereas not feeling pleasure is "not bad" because we can still function and live without feeling constant pleasure (and we can't do the same with constant pain).
So I think that what this chart is making a reference to when it says "pleasure" is literal ecstasy, like the opposite of being depressed (which is not being in a "normal" state) and the opposite of having your hand broken (which is not the "normal" state either). And I recon most people manage without feeling ecstasy every second of their lives, therefore the absence of pleasure is "Not bad".

>Not to mention if you hate life there's always a way out. If you're never born you don't really have a say in the matter.
Suicide is not as simple as you put it.
The point of anti-natalism is that by not creating another person, that "would-be person" doesn't has to undergo any kind of suffering or have to go through the bother of killing themselves or growing old and dying anyway.
Besides, people already don't have a say in whether they are born or not. It's extremely selfish to have children, you can't have them "for their sake".

>>12083296
Is only good for the child, not the mother.

>implying the only goal in life is to avoid pain

Why would you want to preach anti natalism, the commoner doesn't have an abstract mind or long term planning, only when the world is dying because they breed like cockroaches will they understand.

>>12085763
Are you american by chance.

>>12085766
Well, his chart has only one reason for antinatalism and it’s to avoid pain

>>12085771
So you are not only american but also an autist.

>>12083459
>Why can't absence of pleasure be bad?
Someone born with chronic depression is going to have a shit time being alive, that is bad.
How many people are born with chronic euphoria? How do the people not feeling euphoria at every second of their lives manage? It's not bad.

>Existence is good, non-existence is bad and antinatalism would crumble.
Umm try again sweaty. You'd have to explain why existence is good at all in the first place, and antinatalism tells you exactly why being born has no positives whatsoever.
OP probably didn't even read Benatar's book.

>>12085776
Then what is the chart actually arguing?

>>12085782
Ignore the chart, Epicurus had a good argument in favour of anti natalism.

>>12085786
The only thing I was arguing against was the chart you fucking softbrain

>>12085754
I feel pretty okay right now. I have some degree of pleasure while reading good posts ITT. I wouldn't want to give that up.
>suicide isn't as simple as that
Yes it is. You feel up the whole life thing and if you decide it isn't worth it you just go. Sure you feel SOME pain while living a life that you don't like but ending it is simple while never being born never gives you the option to experience. And given how most don't kill themselves I assume most find a reason to live.

>>12083283
There's nothing wrong without suffering. Without suffering there is no context for other human experiences. Antinatalists are just a bunch of pussies, good job your genes will die with you.

>>12085782
Why yes, it is arguing for avoiding pain. It is one of the big things in anti-natalism.
>implying the only goal in life is to avoid pain
Then what is it?
All animals try to avoid pain in one way or another. Humans are better at this thanks to their intelligence (medical science is literally all about avoiding pain, not seeking pleasure), but also due to this intelligence they can pretty much tell that pain is inescapable.
Old age is pain, and there is no avoiding that. Most death processes are pain. Suicide is also pain, you'd have to be under a lot of mental stress to even do that... the awareness of death is one of the things that cause us more pain.
Anti-natalism says that not only we are born into a world of pain but that it is all meaningless. The world doesn't needs more people, there is no incentive to have kids other than selfishness or some delusional belief like the fourteen words (which is a buffer for the fear of death).

Think about it this way: if you have a kid maybe he could get cancer or get kidnapped and raped until it dies. Or maybe he'll be born to live through first world problems. Is the chance of living a comfortable life enough to risk exposing someone to the potential of extreme pain?

>>12085808
The goal of all living being is immortality, breeding is self delusion.

>>12085806
>I feel pretty okay right now
Yeah, that's what the chart would call "not bad".
>He can't even say that he is feeling great just to try to prove me wrong

>You feel up the whole life thing and if you decide it isn't worth it you just go
That is just stupid. You are not taking into account what in the first place would lead someone to think that "life isn't worth it" or what would lead anyone to kill themselves.

>most don't kill themselves I assume most find a reason to live.
You are not taking into account the fear of death, the delusional thinking most people espouse themselves to (religion, politics, not thinking about life at all) and the "optimistic" nature of man, who despite living in an overpopulated world full of evil and pain that we can see everyday on the news, and in a world that will only get worse in the foreseeable future still have children without a second thought.

>>12085810
This.
Animals are not even aware that they will die, they just survive until they can no longer do it. If they did't age they would just keep going. They breed because they know nothing more than biological imperatives.
Humanity is pretty much doing the same. We know that we die, but we still try to live forever somehow, and we are working in ways to either delay the inevitable or just escape it altogether. Humans are also enslaved by biological imperatives, but we also breed as a means to "keep going", either as a species or in a more selfish "my dna will live on through my kid" way

What if pain was my fetish?

>>12085809
That is a stupid argument. If every human lived trying to receive as little pain as possible there would be no bodybuilders, musicians, artists, scientists, poets, bikers, or anything that requires skill. Sure, humans avoid pain but it’s not the only thing in life. That’s as foolish as saying that simple pleasures are the only thing worth achieving in life. Avoiding pain is an important thing, however if one spent ones whole life with avoiding pain as the primary objective they would achieve nothing great or even significant. It is an escapist philosophy for dummies. Please think more about it

>>12085808
>You have to eat shit to be able to enjoy ice cream!
>Yyou are all cowards for not playing Russian roulette with the head of your own son!
>muh genes have value I just know it!

>>12085826
Do you honestly think there is no value in pain and suffering? Should life just be a constant pleasurable experience with no adversity to overcome and make you actually think about life?

>>12085906
Yes, the problem is that you think of pleasure by your low animalistic standards and have been indoctrinated into believing that one can only find pleasure in bondage.

>>12085863
The people who learn a skill have an incentive in it. The "pain" they undergo has a payoff in the form of a skill, and those activities are chasing after pleasure more than willingly putting themselves through pain. There is pain involved when one fails, but there is no pain in drawing 18 hours a day if the process itself is enjoyable to you and you can tell there is progress in your skills.
Make a kid who hates violin practice it 18 hours a day and it will be painful. But if the kid wanted to be a violinist from the get go? Where is the pain in that?
That is not taking into account that these activities are all inherently escapist and therefore already have a degree of pleasure to them. "To achieve" is one of those delusions that keep people going through life and ignoring all the negative aspects of it.
Avoiding pain (and death) is the primary objective, it might not be what is in your mind consciously 24/7, but is right there.

>>12085867
Stop posting on /lit/ Sam

>>12084834
>post-autism

>>12085754
>Not feeling pain is good
No, not feeling pain is not bad. That’s not the same as good. The law of the excluded middle doesn’t apply here. As far as I can tell you’re using “not bad” to mean “ok” or “alright” where I’m using it literally to mean “the negation of bad.” When I say the absence of pleasure is not good, I mean I’m looking at it grammatically, absence=not and pleasure=good.

>>12085906
>Should life just be a constant pleasurable experience
Why the fuck not? Why shouldn't there exist a world in which nature is not an endless holocaust of death? A world free of disease and war? A world in which one animal doesn't has to kill another just to survive?
>with no adversity to overcome
Why should there be adversity to overcome? For what purpose? Why do you think that only the brutal ways of our reality are the only thing that should exist? You sound like a the wife of an abusive husband.
>and make you actually think about life?
Why is it necessary to "think about life"? Would you not be able to think about life in a world of endless pleasure?
Is antinatalism not "thinking about life"? What do you even mean by that? What kind of conclusion do you think pain will give you? Is antinatlism somehow a wrong way of thinking of life?

Define "good" and "bad."

>>12085915
>There is pain involved when one fails, but there is no pain in drawing 18 hours a day if the process itself is enjoyable to you and you can tell there is progress in your skills.
False. You wouldn’t be able to tell any improvement in that short of time. Why do you think so many artists get drove mad?

The heart of your argument, however is that avoiding pain is the reason to live. If this is true why have you not liked yourself? Sure, there is pain in suicide,but is not a fleeting moment of agony more desireable than a life of it? This is the hypocrisy that lies at the hart of your argument. Your continued existence betrays your philosophy and illudes to a higher purpose.

There's not really a """reason""" to have or not to have kids but usually the people that do are maximum retards that don't have their shit together, which pisses me off. So if I ever accumulate the power, these cretins are getting fucked, and not the way they so desperately want to. You aren't wrong for having kids, but you're usually garbage that won't amount to anything (and so is your kid) so you shouldn't wine when other people want to clean you up

>>12084834
what do both sides even represent?

>>12085956
When I say "you can tell there is improvement" I don't mean immediately, I mean in the long run, after practicing for 18 hours everyday for an entire year. Someone who really wants to be an artist knows that this is how it is, that this is not an immediate payoff like masturbation. Artists who go mad because they can't draw anime after reading half a Loomis book are just impatient/idiots and they either get their shit together and do it right or leave it entirely because it becomes much more painful to them.

My continued existence betrays nothing: I am afraid of dying (and I will die anyway) and I live in a shit world in which I could run into horrible agony at any given moment. The nature of reality is such that we are trapped in a fucked up planet in which the alternative to life (with all its shortcoming) is death (which is INESCAPABLE).
There is no "higher purpose" other than to deal with it. Do I think it's OK to bring another life to this planet just so it can "deal with it" too? Bring another life to a world in which it could run into horrible agony? Bring another life to experience awareness of death and the process of it? No, absolutely not.

>why have you not liked yourself?
Because my ass is ugly.

>>12085980
It's pretty simple to me. Have you ever seen a single person give a non egoistic reason for having kids?

Antinatalism is fine. The only people who follow it are so weak that their children would have almost no chance of weathering reality

>>12083283
I am happy that my parents decided that I should be born. The world is a net pleasurable experience, and even times of pain are enjoyable, as they're usually on a path to an overall better state.

>>12085996
There is nothing positive to "weathering life" other than to ensure the right mindset to continue reproduction. And when reproduction is seen as something either meaningless or negative then what is the point at all?
I think anti-natalism could be seen as some sort of disease that goes against everything life has hardwired into us. Doesn't means it's wrong though.

>>12085991
>I am afraid of dying
Then kill yourself. If the fear of death is so crippling and this world is so debauched then there is to reason to live. You might say my argument is contradictory, but why let the fear of death haunt you all your life?
>There is no "higher purpose" other than to deal with it.
That is a higher purpose, however it is a pitiful one

>>12086051
Shadilay brother deus vult we have to save the white race and western civ exclamation point

>>12086060
Nice strawman

>>12085993
Nope its the usual mental gymnastics of """"JUSTIFICATION"""" and it usually takes the form of some kind of life-valuation that the person will refuse to admit and is ultimately a farce. My argument isn't people shouldn't have kids - its that most people don't fucking think for one second before doing it and then fuck up their shit, their kids shit, everybody that knows them's shit, and eventually my shit which is why I'm pissed.

>>12086051
Fear of death comes (generally) from fear of the unknown. That's exactly why fear of dying is exactly what keeps you from actually killing yourself.

Living with paranoia and dread > dead

>>12086083
You avoid the end of pain by enduring more pain daily.

>>12083283
>absence of pain (Good)

>>12086102
No one said it was rational.

>>12086126
You proved my point. If your claim that you live to avoid pain and you know that life is pain then your higher reason for life is the fear of death. You could argue that you fear the pain of death but you even said that you only fear it becuase you fear the unknown.

>>12083296
What about excercise pain?

>>12083283
Tfw everything you want to achieve is "not bad"

Without life threatening idea itself would die

Is antinatalism just the intellectual expression of suicidal tendencies? I mean the fact of being alive is not that bleak for everyone, you can't make a grand life totalizing theory out of it

>>12085326
Pleasure is a lot of things. Pleasure isn't just physical rejoicing

Me on the lower left

>>12086183
Antinatalism is inherently nihilistic and that’s why it attracts so many people with suicidal tendencies. That’s also why so many of its arguments are imbued with misanthropy and self-loathing

>>12086195
>>12086183
Imagine being such a filthy commoner.

>>12086198
T.

>>12086212
Are you implying I'm depressed because I don't behave like a cornered animal ?

>>12085941
Define "define".

>>12085941
Define "and".

>>12085941
Define “””

>>12086221
*/nightwalk/s*

>>12085941
>imagine being this resistent to starting with the greeks
start with the greeks

>>12083283
I keep posting this but here's a reminder that Parmenides has proved a really long time ago (which you would know if you started with the Greeks) proved that there is no difference between scenario A and B. Or rather, that scenario be is logically impossible.
Remember this kids
>Being is, non-being is not
Go lie on your bed, think about this for a couple of minutes, and there you go. You discovered that ''coming into existence' is impossible. This entire thread would have been unnecessary if you had done your homework.

>>12083283
I don't like this because it's giving qualities to something that doesn't exist. You can't experience shlibop because the experience doesn't exist in our universe. Is it good or bad? It's neither, nor does it have any qualities because it's not a thing. It unfair if you judge both columns on the basis of pain/pleasure existing.

>>12085780
>sweaty
Okay.

And OP would have to prove his good/bad/not bad shenanigans which is exactly my point. I think my existence-example is an equally axiomatic presumption as the ones OP used.

>>12086183
shitty """antinatalists""" that attempt to justify their view through anything other than a physical shifting of power dynamics should be disregarded. It ain't about the inherent value/non-value of life, its about me not wanting you and your spawn running rampant and taking up my resources. That said my circumstances disallow me from acting on this position beyond screaming into a void "DONT HAVE KIDS" which just goads them on. You'll find better luck convincing someone out of having children by familiarizing them with the resource cost than getting all uppity and """MORAL""" on them anyways. So yeah to any retards currently screaming into the void - you're in bad taste

>>12083283
>absence of pleasure
>not bad

>absence of pain
>not bad
FTFY

Ok bye bye dont have kids not like anyone cares or will actually listen

>>12086670
Keep suffering bro.

>>12086681
life isn't all suffering

The absence of pain isn't good lol. Avoiding pain in favor of pleasure is not the state of life. Struggle requires effort and pain. The problem with antinatalist is that they focus on pleasure and pain rather than happiness.

>>12086716
The problem with breeders is that they don't understand what pain and pleasure means.

>>12086718
What are your definitions of pain and pleasure then?

>>12086718
>implying
I can play the antinatalist better than the antinatalist themselves by explaining why people breed while using the views of antinatalism itself to disprove it.
People seek to impose their will on the world and by doing so, condemn people to living, knowing full well the pain of living. Yet they do so anyways because of selfish reasons.
Ultimately, antinatalists are idiots that think that people will act in altruistic selfless interest for people that will never be born!
>don't breed, think of the people you'll cause misery by giving them life!

But the thing is that most people don't see this as a 'causing suffering' when bringing life to this wrong because of their self-interest. This is why most life created either accidental or on purpose is always selfish and why the general public will never accept antinatalism. It's betting on people being purely selfless to abstractions.
Or to put it in a way that /lit/ would understand: thinking that avoiding pain is 'good' is a spook

--
So come on, now that I've given the best arguments against antinatalism, surely you'll explain how I shouldn't care for my self-interest and think of invisible unborn people!

>>12086779
No, I don't preach anti natalism to others, you are still an animal.

>>12085809
>All animals try to avoid pain
No they fucking don't you double nigger
Lots and lots and lots of species of animals go through excruciating pain or die to reproduce, and they will do everything they possibly can to reproduce anyway
There's a reason good systems of ethics aren't based on what animals do to each other

>>12086835
'Being an animal' is a spook and I don't care what you call me. You just rationalize your altruism by hating reality. Antinatalism is equally just an ideological battle of making people do the same; hate reality and care for others (but mostly unborn people).
Being selfish doesn't make me an animal, because I can selfishly decide not to have children. But if I do eventually decide to have children, it won't be because 'I'm an animal' as you idiotically believe but because I will impose my will on the world to give life so that I may transmit my values and tradition. I will condemn someone to the pain of living because my self-interest is more important than their potential suffering and pain.

Antinatalism are so boring once you figure out their core beyond their whole 'hurrr pain is bad'. They don't even know the value of happiness.
That meme screencap post on /lit/ about how the purest form of antinatalism is to go murdering all of humanity is correct and shows the cowardly attitude of antanatalist. You don't want to convince/tell people your views yet you somehow think it matters whether you doom people to suffer by living because you desired to impose your will.

"PAINIS JUST WEAKNESS LEAVING YOUR BODY"

>MAGGOT

Stirner parasites can attempt to reason their way out of emotional commitments all they want.

In the end, humans cannot part from their emotional selves, and reason will always be second to the chemicals in our brains.

What if I want the world to crash and burn by letting mudslimes shit out 8 babies while I will have none?

Shit chart since it doesn't prove that the Good isn't worth the presence of pain.

>>12086915
HAHAHA
What a laugh
>implying you are at the whims of your emotions
>implying you cannot be rational
>implying your emotions can't be unified with your reason
>implying acting on a whim and with your emotions is how you should live your life
You fucking strawman shit, thinking that I'm 'against' emotions, and want to 'part away' from my emotional self.
Lemme post a person that lived the antinatalist life that calls you a faggot.

Isn't that birthing is bad, is that if you even think of having children, you are already a low brow scum.

>>12083283
This is among the most autistic charts I've ever seen, and it's honestly impressive that it manages to do that without being overly complex
Imagine reducing human existence down so far that you cancel out your retarded arbitrary good boy points gained when holding your newborn son for the first time by accidentally stubbing your toe on the way out of the room
Then trying to assert a moral highground over all of human existence using that very system

>>12087260
based and redpilled

haha antinatalism is wrong because I can't control my dick and OP posted a dumb chart I'm so intelligent.

haha antinatalism is right because 1 - 1 - 1 + 0 = -1 haha bad number I'm so ready to die

>>12083475
Nihilism blows you the fuck out every time because you'll never be a able to refute it.

>>12085810
Immortality is not a goal if it is not something you want. A goal is only something you want. If you think life and evolution 'have a goal' you are implying that there is a mind behind evolution, when really it is just chemical reactions that must occur given their position.

>>12086195
Its not nihilistic as it is very moral and normative. It is instead pessimistic, saying that life is always bad. A nihilistic response to life would be that its neither good nor bad.

>>12085981
reddit and 4chan

>>12086051
Oh please great enlightened one, show me one """higher""" purpose that is not completely pitiful.

>>12083283
Without God, humanity has a moral duty to observe the universe.
With God, humanity has a duty to god.
Either way, hedonism is not a factor. Nor does anything necessitate the amount of pleasure cannot be greater than all three other boxes. Get to work on that pleasure planet, quiter.

>>12087864
How do we know our "duty" if there aren't any instructions as to what it is?

>>12087901
I just told you what it is. We are the means by which the universe might know itself.

>>12083283
The problem with antinatilism is that it implies that there is a difference between life and death, or more accurately life and non-life. All perceived differences are due to our perception and has no reality outside of the subject, knowing this discontinuing the human race would be without purpose, the only reason why one would want to discontinue the human race would be because they are fundamentally weak willed, or without backbone. Continuing humanity and improving the human condition on the other hand serves a purpose, not only is our suffering reduced if proper methods of improving our existence are implemented, our continued existence allows us to further understand the universe. Antinatilism also implies that we have figured out existence in it's fullest extent and there is no more reason to continue existing, which is of course arrogant considering how low we are intellectually. Our continued existence allows for further inquiry while our non-existence is an absolute end to all further inquires.
I also don't see how pain would render life unlivable, pain allows for great pleasure. Profound art has come out of terrible suffering, and the ecstasy I feel when consuming such art is more powerful than the pain that created it. Perhaps antinatilist lack the capability of understanding art? Anyway, pain is only one aspect of life. Pleasure, happiness, and love are all other aspects that happen in our lives, there is no reason to throw it all away because pain is a reoccurring phenomena.

>>12088014
Why is this good?

>>12088034
>difference between life and death, or more accurately life and non-life
there very clearly is

>>12087901
We have the Bible

>>12083283
There doesn't need to be any argument against anti-natalism, there needs to be arguments for procreation.

It is literally an act that doesn't benefit the one person that should matter, the child, as they don't exist.

>>12083441
What makes it an argument?

>>12088014
there's nothing

>>12088063
If you remove the human subject from existence what meaningful statements could you make about reality? Life and non-life? Considering all of our propositions were formulated in our restricted mind. We can say there is a perceived difference between life and non-life but remove our vision and we can no longer perceive anything as a reality. Fundamentally there is no difference between life and non-life.

>>12083283
Anti-natalism will only result in a sequence of limited cullings of dna carriers vulnerable to such notions.

Even now, you are attempting to present it as the most 'powerful' and 'truthful' opinion and option. It's one of the completely futile ways of thinking. You should spend your time attempting to produce life worth living.

>>12088161
>there needs to be arguments for procreation.
>It is literally an act that doesn't benefit the one person that should matter, the child, as they don't exist.
Do you have siblings?

>>12088266
This isn't much different from asking if there were kids in the schools I went to or other adults in the workplaces I was employed in or doctors staffed inside any hospital I've been inside. Very low energy stuff.

>>12088058
Define good.

>>12085755
Clearly you don’t have children. Mothers go crazy about not wanting to take pain-relieving drugs because they want their babies to be as naturally born as possible. Not all pain is bad.

>>12087580
>implying
Your life is the standard of value by which all other values derive. To be nihilistic you have to believe that living as the same as being dead and that you prefer neither. Any value in reality is to become worthless.
Nihilism is ultimately an argument of laziness.

>>12086903
>the purest form of antinatalism is to go murdering all of humanity is correct
How fucking stupid and illiterate do you have to be to not be able to digest what the word is.

Anti
Natalism

Antinatalism is not against life itself but against birth. The two are not the fucking same thing. Jesus H. Christ.

>>12084834
>anal stage

"boohoo, it hurts, make the pain go away mummy!!!"

imagine thinking this is a convincing philosophical argument and not the thought pattern of a toddler with a scraped knee

>>12083283
suicide is easy enough that if you ever wanna go you can. the problem is you

>>12090056

But this is what "natalists", not antinatalists, say.

>>12089916
How fucking dense are you? If you kill all of humanity, no one will ever be able to give birth, and thereby no one will suffer!
The arguments against birth is literally that of being against life. Don't you fucking go 'huurrr the name just means being against being born and nothing else' like some fucking teenager.
But the reason you're bitching is likely because you haven't seen the screencap post I'm referencing. I have a bad memory, but the point made in that post is that if antinatalist were honestly, they would kill everyone to prevent people giving birth. The post argued that most don't, arguing in some false bullshit regarding individual rights but that it's a facade because they don't really believe anyone should be allowed to kill others, even though killing others would be more effective at not allowing anyone to give birth.
Because, honestly, between trying to convince people that suffering is bad and no one should give birth to experience such suffering and going around murdering people, the former is easier than the latter. You get to be a pessimistic idiot, hating reality, accomplishing nothing waiting for death to take you because you're too cowardly to commit suicide, without actually accomplishing the goals of the philosophy which is to stop people giving birth and preventing people from suffering.

>>12090125
>If you kill all of humanity, no one will ever be able to give birth, and thereby no one will suffer!
this is your brain on political extremism

antinatalism has nothing to do with killing or life that already exists and only someone who hasn't done the most cursory of googlings on the topic would think otherwise, im not reading the rest of your garbage post

ps. I don't give a fuck about proselytizing the "benefits" of antinatalism or whtaever, I've just yet to see it be properly dismantled by anyone who understands it and doesn't just take the basic premises and run with the most extreme ideas that come to their mind

>>12090154
Jesus fuck idiot, how fucking dense are you? I never said that antinatalist aim to kill people. Holy fuck.