/lit/ - Literature

Unironically pitiful. I would say pick up some Boethius or something, but it'd be pearls before swine

Straw-man, serious Christians would not say "to test us", they might say God allows evil for the purpose of virtue.

Lord of the rings without Melkor is just a gay tea party.

>>12078456

>>12078456
>Destroys your flowchart

>>12078456
>evil exists
?
>god could and would destroy Satan?
?
>therefore no need to test us
?

???
?
?

So the person who made this is upset that evil exists and yet they want to "destroy Satan" rather than heal him?

God DESTROYS Satan with POWER and KNOWLEDGE

"God does not want to prevent evil" does not lead to the conclusion "God is not good / loving."

A human counterexample (NOT a metaphor): a parent must allow a child to make a bad decision so they can experience its consequences and gain insight necessary for independent adulthood.

An explanation: evil is, in the final meaning of things, not evil at all. That is an exceptionally difficult truth to grasp, it is subtle and easily abused, but it is truth. The sufferings of this world (and the next) are a great unreality masking the true essence of being.

>>12078580
Good post.

>>12078580
why does god make people that he knows will end up in hell

not OP btw

>>12078668
Hell isnt what you think it is

>>12078680
1. what is it
2. how do you know

>>12078580
>here comes the parent-child psychopathic analogies that betray the domestic and infantile mindset of christfaggots

>>12078668
I am wary of forming concrete ideas about the so-called "after life" (which is a radical transformation of being-- it is an alteration so complete as to make all our ideas about it useless, it is not like anything in our memory).

Hell and heaven exist as concepts in all the major religions. They refer to something real. After-life can be "better" or "worse." When you read about "fires of Gehenna" this is metaphor. What body is there to burn when we have shuffled off this mortal coil?

I dont pretend to know what "eternal" means in relation to after-life, but it is impossible to my mind that souls persist in a state of damned suffering for eternity. There must be more to the story. Eternal doesnt mean what we think it does-- or maybe the worst punishment is oblivion.

>>12078489
>Straw-man, serious Christians would not say [...]
No True Scotsman

>Lord of the rings without Melkor is just a gay tea party.
We only do Harry Potter analogies 'round these parts, friendo.

Christianity makes a lot more sense if you consider your current self constantly forking towards a "heaven" or "hell" state based on your actions and emotional baggage

>>12078691
If God is good, merciful and just generally wholesome, being Godless itself is Hell.

I don't mean Atheists and Pagans, they can be very graceful sometimes.

What I mean by Godless are those who lack morality, good-will and meaning.

This is one of the ongoing arguments on the existence of God.

If God is omniscient he would know what he did was right and what we perceive as 'test to no means' is wrong. If God is omnibenevolent then what he did was good in the unseeable end, that evil exists for a 'good' purpose.

But that's a cheap counter-argument, I'd say that good and evil isn't so easily simplified: God may be omnibenevolent but that doesn't mean our interpretation of what he isn't doing is evil, is right.

Language is code, however, what we believe is good and evil isn't absolute. I'm sure the people from the middle-east have different opinions, vegans consider meat-eaters (and other animal derivatives) evil even.

Virgin rejects Christianity because rational-logical inconsistencies, arrogating to himself the right to judge God

vs

Chad rejects Christianity because it's a gross, cowardly, sentimental, resentimental, subversive, slave-morality genocide-and-suicide cult foisted upon the European races by weak, effete, cosmopolitan, deracinated, traitorous, self-hating mental-spiritual cuckolds [who were] in thrall to Judaism, in order to, cynically, parasitically, ruin, humilate, and obliterate these once-great races by transmuting their excessive virtue into the implement of their own torture

>>12078456
Christians are retards who don't understand that God is both good and evil. He is the snake in the garden as well as the fruit and both Adam and Eve. To be omnipresent means to be all things with no exceptions. If you do not have the courage to be evil, you lack a portion of your godhood.

>>12078844

Truly, My Satan, thou art but a Dunce,
And dost not know the Garment from the Man;
Every Harlot was a Virgin once,
Nor can'st thou ever change Kate into Nan.
Tho' thou art Worship'd by the Names Divine
Of Jesus and Jehovah, thou art still
The Son of Morn in weary Night's decline,
The lost Traveller's Dream under the Hill.

t. a Christian

>>12078862
>poetry to cover up your inability and / or lack of desire to provide civil discourse and contend with reasonable argument
Classic. "t. a Christian" indeed.

>>12078809
Doesn't a European pagan religion just restrict the society more than it liberates? I don't see how any advanced society could keep their traditions, such as the ritual election of the King and Queen each year.

>>12078668
The "eternal hell" meme is pretty much the stupidest thing they tacked onto the religion. Would be a pretty great one without it.

>>12078767
it does seem because of the way that we are naturally wired, or perhaps, because of the laws of the universe that God put into place, that when we do bad things, we end up suffering. Perhaps we are punishing ourselves mentally and emotionally, but the reason we do punish ourselves mentally and emotionally is what interests me.

>>12078456
>the demiurge = god

>>12078875
>inability and / or lack of desire to provide civil discourse or contend with reasonable argument
>Christians are retards

???

>>12078940
>the demiurge is a christian concept

>>12078891
>tacked onto a religion
>implying things are thoughtlessly added
>implying living a christian life is easy

>>12078948
55 words come after those first 3 in that post. You'll find the well-reasoned argument in there.

>God wants to grant his children free will
>Having free will means having freedom to do evil among all things
>Therefore God cannot just "remove" evil
Hurr durr

>>12078885
What are you trying to say? That paganism couldn't change over time? Christianity as it's practiced today is obviously very different from what the original christians practiced.

>>12078960
You add additional suffering to your already drama-filled religion. Chill out, God does not really have to be that intense.

I thought Satan and God were on the same team?

Satan punishes the bad and God rewards the good.

>>12078981
They're two sides of the same coin.

>>12078968
>is obviously different from what early Christians practiced

Uh, I'm going to need citations and I'm going to need you to provide the differences between denominations on how/why none of them come to close to the Christianity of the Old Testament.

>>12078966
Jesus had free will but he didn’t sin. Don’t rely on free will to avoid this problem. Remember Romans 9. Evil exists because God wants it to exist

>>12078985
Some might say, ultimately, the same entity

>>12078977
It's not additional suffering, the entire point of Christianity is living a life that leads you away from hell.
It actually alleviates part of the mystery so the faith is easier to bare.

Your obviously not Christian, so you'd have no way of understanding Faith.

>>12078981
Satan is the deceiver and the binder of sin.

>>12078985
No.
>>12078995
Jesus is God, and even he was still tempted to sin. You have no idea what you are talking about.


>>12079002
Delusional people may say what ever they desire.

>>12079008
Some people seem to have a higher probability of sinning than others. How does free will account for this? Do some have more free will than others? Is there a spectrum containing minimum and maximum amounts of free will? Surely angels do not sin as much as humans, so couldn’t humans be made like angels instead of monkeys?

I think one day we should just genetically engineer people to be sinless, and easily have faith in God, and be selfless, etc. That will be a true utopia.

>>12079008
If Satan is a separate entity from God, then God is not omnipresent, which also means he is not omniscient and not omnipotent. There is no way around this besides burying your head in the sand. Further, God has to be both capable of and willing to do evil, otherwise he can't be omnipotent; it makes no sense for an all-powerful being to hold unconditional and unrelenting preference for one side of any dichotomy. An omnipotent being has to be all things all at once.

>>12078966
>>12078456

This is essentially the case. Free will is the greatest thing a creator could do for his creation. This is a sentiment that even Kierkegaard believed ("God could create man such that man has dominion over God if he so chose and God would do this because he is all good). To deprive a fully sentient and conscious entity of free will is to institute slavery. This is inherently immoral and evil. God allows us to exist, with all our flaws, because he wants us to choose him as our path for salvation and redemption. There is nothing to be learned by being forced down a path of goodness. This is why humans gravitate toward stories of redemption. The redeemed man who has turned away from evil is always better and more complete than the man who was always perfect. God is inherently good and evil, but this does not make him balance. God just is. Period. He is the moral framework in the christian world (and thus the world at large if that is the religious belief you ascribe to). God acts as the catalyst for man to redeem himself, but creating evil and destroying it through and only through mankind.

Also, Satan isn't the origin of evil.

>>12079026
I know you are just baiting, but I feel like your dumb enough to actually think your questions are good questions. So for your sake I'll answer them.


>Some people seem to have a higher probability of sinning than others. How does free will account for this?
We are all born as sinners, and we are all judged as sinners. Ones will to sin is ultimately their choice of not doing Gods wishes. One who despises God more will likely be a heavier sinner.

>Do some have more free will than others? Is there a spectrum containing minimum and maximum amounts of free will?
No and obviously not.

>Surely angels do not sin as much as humans
They do not sin ever, all their work is done by Gods command.

Bless your heart for trying to look smart.

>>12079029
>To deprive a fully sentient and conscious entity of free will is to institute slavery. This is inherently immoral and evil.

then why does he allow humans to enslave each other?

>>12079029
We only have free will insofar we have the capacity to do both good and evil, but true free will is an incoherent concept.

If everyone had free will, they would all behave the same.

>>12079028
>If Satan is a separate entity from God, then God is not omnipresent
Yeah I've already disagreed with you here.

God gives Man Free Will so Man may Love God and God loves Man. God loves Man out of his free will. It is by the grace of God you even exist.

>>12079044
Just because you type words out doesn’t mean you’ve done anything worthwhile. No one’s impressed by your response. You didn’t even attempt to actually answer me or refute my points, implied or not.

>>12079045
Because Humans are sinners, are you dense?

>>12079055
Your points are insignificant as they have nothing to do with the Christian Faith. No Christians thinks like you. Sorry dude, you're just out of your element.

>>12079053
>It is by the grace of God you even exist.

people born with horrifying deformities sure are blessed by that grace

you can see the holiness and purity radianting from every glob of spittle issuing from their slack, dumb mouths. what a blessing that they are "allowed" to exist! G-d is good!

>>12079053
Is God omnipresent or not? Does God know everything that is happening in the universe? Does God know all outcomes?

>>12079045
>>12079029
>God acts as the catalyst for man to redeem himself, by them creating evil and destroying it through and only through mankind itself.

This is why you illiterate fuck. Allowing us to have free will is what allows us to do evil things as well as good. God is impartial, but humans aren't you fucking retard.

>>12078456
mortal tier chart. do not be persuaded to stray, anons. Evil is man's choice against man.

>>12079053
>Yeah I've already disagreed with you here.
Do you understand what the word omnipresent means? I don't think you do, and if you do, you're being intentionally deceptive. You're disagreeing with computational logic here.

>Evil exists
>Yes
Stop right there you criminal moralist. Stop and define evil!

>>12079068
Cringe man. Do you know people with deformities? Do you love them just the same as others? You should, just because some people have different challenges in their life than you, does not mean God doesn't love them.

I feel sorry for you anon. But I am here to show my Love for you.

>>12079061
>i give you humans the ability to deny each others free wills
>but its okay because i'm not doing it directly
>but wait i actually am since i'm responsible for everything and give you all you have
>but i'm not because i am the greatest good i am huuuurrrrr durrrrrr

>>12079065
>Some people seem to have a higher probability of sinning than others. How does free will account for this?
>We are all born as sinners, and we are all judged as sinners. Ones will to sin is ultimately their choice of not doing Gods wishes. One who despises God more will likely be a heavier sinner.
You did a poor job of explaining how free will leads to some people choosing heaven, and others choosing Hell. How is one person’s free will better than another’s? Is it luck? Randomness? God’s arbitrary grace? Again, I say, if everyone truly had free will, they would all choose heaven, so long as they had the knowledge that in choosing to be good Christians that they would reach Heaven. But if they didn’t understand the consequence of not choosing Heaven, then they are less free than they would be otherwise

>>12079069
There is only one outcome anon and of course he knows it, and yes He's omnipresent and all knowing.

>>12078492
Mate, I don't think anyone knows this lad outside our country

>>12079073
I absolutely do, do you know the Christian docterine on it? Obviously not.
Just because Satan (the deceiver) is there, does not mean God isn't.

Your not being logical anon. Satan is tended to be called Lucifer because he is a blinding light for sinners, like moth on candle flame.

>>12079083
>doesnt understand free will
Oh my Lord, I am laughing.

>>12079094
Yeah, I've posted his Sam Harris impression a number of times and no ones ever responded :'(

>>12079086
The critical flaw in your thinking is that all humans are born as clean, identical slates. They're not.

>>12079102
To be fair, no one really understands free will

>>12079096
>Just because Satan (the deceiver) is there, does not mean God isn't.
So then why shy away from the fact you just admitted, which is that God is also Satan, i.e. God willfully commits evil?

>>12079083
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>12079080
yes I do know people with deformities. they are a burden on their family and everyone around them. people readily admit it was a mistake to ever have them in the first place. there is no reason any so called loving God would create them. they are so dysfunctional they cannot even understand what God is in the first place. they are mistakes quite simply, even a saint would not abide raising one

truths of generation are a sober and fine past-time from the eternal, the craftsman that took from that which is eternal and filled the wet-nurse did so from necessity and mind to replenish the void for universalizing what-is. Kyrie eleison.

>>12079104
So are you saying that factors outside of our control cause differences in our behavior, and ultimately lead to one man going to Heaven, while another goes to Hell? Now you’re starting to agree with me.

>>12079086
>How is one person’s free will better than another’s?
Because one Choses to Love God, and another casts him aside. This is the difference between you and I. I will be going to Heaven and you to Hell.


>Again, I say, if everyone truly had free will, they would all choose heaven
Wrong, you could come to Heaven to if you turn to Jesus and ask for forgiveness as I have. He would love for you to, so what's stopping you?

Being a Christian isn't easy anon.
The Bible is out there, and the message of what it brings.
I'm not stopping you.

>>12079102
>>12079109
all this cope

God cannot respect free will if he lets it be violated by humans on other humans. he's just a retard since me (and anyone else) would rather be God's slave than Rashid's. there are people who live their entire lives in bondage; where is their free will? and if it were a fact that it was so sacred then violating someone else's free will would be the worst sin. instead the bible teaches you how to manage slaves (much like yourselves)

>>12079107
Are you intentionally not understanding? Satan is his own person, and does his own works. God allows him to work so God's followers will stick out like a flame in the night.

>>12079110
Sounds like those people don't love them, and I weep for them and their pitiful lives. It seems to me, you are around a bunch of negative and judgemental people. No wonder you can't see the beauty and splendor of God.
Trust me when I say, God loves all people equal. But only those that accept his Love will be given the gift of his Grace.

>>12079128
>Satan is his own person
If he is "his own person" i.e. an entity separate from God, God IS NOT OMNIPRESENT BY DEFINITION OF THE WORD. And if something other than God is capable of "doing his own works," then God is not omnipotent either, because then that means that something possesses power that God doesn't possess! What about either of these points don't you get?

>>12079127
Anon, free will is about the mind, and not the physical slavery we all are commited to.

>>12079118
First, I’m Christian. However, I accepted long ago that I could not rely on the belief that we have free will to understand why there is evil. I would be just as fine if it were the case that God predestines everything, good and evil.

>How is one person’s free will better than another’s?
>Because one Choses to Love God, and another casts him aside. This is the difference between you and I. I will be going to Heaven and you to Hell.
You didn’t answer the question. Why does one choose to love God, while the other doesn’t? Surely there must be DIFFERENCES in their minds that account for the difference in their behavior, and it is probably not the case that free will, whatever that means, accounts for this difference? You do not have to tell me, I know you yourself do not understand what you are saying.

>Wrong, you could come to Heaven to if you turn to Jesus and ask for forgiveness as I have. He would love for you to, so what's stopping you?
You’re assuming everyone has free will. It makes much more sense that we are predetermined

>>12079127
>>12079138
Exactly this.
Your free will is not a guarantee in all physical forms. It is simply a guarantee that you can choose to act with good or with evil in your heart. The freedom from being unable to choose is different. God fully respects the free will of humanity precisely because he allows slavery (and other sins) to happen.

>>12079137
That's literally not what omnipresent means in Christian theology. I see since you cannot come to the standard vocabulary this conversation will go no where. I wish the best to you and pray for your soul. Every reply I have gave you has been done so out of love, as I do Love you specifically.

I am a Christian and you are not. I cannot explain you definitions of things, and I see no need to.

>>12078809
Unironically woke as fuck my man,keep spreading the good word!

>>12079138
the mind can be easily enslaved, there are entire instuitions dedicated to this

>>12079143
you can indoctrinate someone into believing what is evil is good and what is good is evil then seperate them from any knowledge of the difference until they die. there are psychos who because of their mental illness don't know what good is and can never know.

btw slavery ain't a sin, its just bad to treat you slaves badly. slaves must serve their earthly masters and all that

12079113
christfags don't deserve this post

>>12079150
>That's literally not what omnipresent means in Christian theology.
With that horseshit you could say and deny literally whatever you want because all words and all of natural law is obviously meaningless to you. But I predicted as much; "There is no way around this besides burying your head in the sand."

>Every reply I have gave you has been done so out of love, as I do Love you specifically.
I have no use for fake love. You can keep it.

>>12079141
It is by the Grace of God, nothing we do will truly grant it. In all honestly it's those who seek a higher understanding and take the humble position of being a subject under God. God wishes to be worshipped, and it's our duty to do so.

I ask, do you accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior?

Do you acknowledge thar he was sent down by the Father to be crucified for your sin?

>>12079159
If you want to discuss Christian ideas than you must do so with the correct knowledge of what their words mean.

>>12079159
My Love isn't fake. I really do fear for your soul. I love you as my neighbor.

>>12079165
If the dictionary definition of omnipresence is invalid here, provide the valid one.

>>12079161
>In all honestly it's those who seek a higher understanding and take the humble position of being a subject under God.
I agree, and i think some people are more likely to do this than others. I mainly started after reading Pascal. Imagine if I never had access to that book, or didn’t have the mental faculties to read it.

>I ask, do you accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior?

>Do you acknowledge thar he was sent down by the Father to be crucified for your sin?
Yes

>>12079138
Sure, you can say that that's what you mean, but then the concept of free will being the reason that makes evil worth it falls apart, doesn't it? If god lets evil happen to let me have free will, but I don't get to exercise that free will because I'm enslaved, then that sucks. I would hate that god. The existence of god is a tough question, but there is no way to weasel your way out of god being a cunt.

>>12079170
Have it
https://study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.html

>>12078912
>sociopathy
your first mistake is assuming everyone has a conscious

they don't

Here is a dialogue between St. Catherine and God for anyone interested.

http://www.catholicplanet.com/ebooks/Dialogue-of-St-Catherine.pdf

>>12079171
I would take some Catholic ideas with a grain of salt, brother.

>>12079182
Don’t know what you’re talking about

>>12079157
Anon, there is a difference here that you aren't understanding. Humans can do terrible things to one another. All actions, good or bad, are viable in totality because the christian god allows free will. The results of those actions can be of whatever happens down here on earth, but god judges according to his laws and not the ones of humans. This includes the definitions of sin as described in the Bible (im aware these definitions have changed over time but to God and the written presentation of his word, this is the case). Humans could convince one another to worship lobsters and murder new born children every Sunday after before throwing their sisters to the sharks on Tuesdays and the christian god would still judge the world according to their actions with regard to his laws. Its about the ability to choose, not the choices themselves.

And slavery isn't a sin for that reason. But dominating the mind of a creation when it has full autonomy and consciousness is morally reprehensible and not a viable route for the goal God is trying to achieve. Namely, allowing humans to find his salvation on their own. Because, again, there is nothing of value in the redemption if there is nothing to redeem.

>>12079178
>Omnipresence means all-present. This term means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole of the universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. [...] He is everywhere at once.
Uhh.... ok. This is exactly the same definition of omnipresence that I was using. Good one there.

>>12079083
Do you want good to selectively lobotomize anyone who might be bad? "Oh, it looks like you're going to enslave someone, so you don't have free will now." That's not how it works

>>12078891
It's not tacked on at all. "Hell" is simply a state of total separation from God.

>>12079185
>Because, again, there is nothing of value in the redemption if there is nothing to redeem.
Why are you bringing down god to the level of humans? Why does god need that satisfaction? Does reasoning and value exist outside of god? Why would god construct reality so that this must follow?

>>12079137
>>12079189
I think souls can lose their sight of the Lord in Hell, but He can be anywhere and everywhere.

If I have free will, do I have the freedom to reject having free will?

>>12079200
It is literally tacked on. Do you not only think jews are wrong, but that they didn't exist?

>>12079200
Separation, but tortures as well. (Lake of Fire)

>>12079189
The point is God is not inside Satan.
He choses where he wants to be.

>>12079185
>All actions, good or bad, are viable in totality because the christian god allows free will.
Why do animals sin, then? The truth is, people act evil because it is our nature, not because we “freely” will to do it. If we were all truly free as Jesus was, we would understand the importance of not sinning, and, being able to freely will our own wills, we would never sin.

>>12079202
If an infinite being exists, there is only the infinite being, otherwise the being is not infinite. So it doesn't make sense to even acknowledge that there are "souls" when you also apparently acknowledge an infinite being. This is why Christians are contradictory and don't know what they're talking about.

>>12079203
You can give consent to submit to someone else.

>>12079201
God became man as Christ, he experienced a worse life than you ever will, so do not worry.

this is a false dichotomy. under a true omniscient omnipotent and benevolent god the only logical conclusion is that evil doesn't exist. everything that happens was meant to happen, and free will doesn't exist.

>>12079209
>God is not inside Satan.
Then God is not everywhere at once.

>>12079211
Animals don't sin anon, humans do, it's a human trait. It is human nature.

>>12079213
It's difficult for some of them to conceptualize a god that isn't external to themselves.

>>12079213
God exists outside our space and time my dude. It's not 'woah dude we are God'.

>>12079213
And can a wretch like me pay back to You the graces and the burning
charity that You have shown and show with so much burning love in particular to
me beyond common charity, and the love that You show to all Your creatures? No,
but You alone, most sweet and amorous Father, are He who will be thankful and
grateful for me, that is, that the affection of Your charity itself will render You
thanks, because I am she who is not, and if I spoke as being anything of myself, I
should be lying by my own head, and should be a lying daughter of the Devil, who is
the father of lies, because You alone are He who is. And my being and every further
grace that You have bestowed upon me, I have from You, who give them to me
through love, and not as my due.

This is taken from St. Catherine's dialogue.

>>12079219
Right.

Monotheists are not Pantheists. The more you know

>>12079219
He doesn't chose to be, it's his decision where he is at all times.

>>12079223
Alright! You admit that sinning is a part of our nature. Now, is it possible for a being to have free will without having a sinful nature?

>>12079236
Not unless they are God.

>>12079214
I don't want free will at all. Is it forced upon me?

>>12079232
It's a pretty poetic way to express that the only thing that exists in the universe is Truth. Truth is One, indivisible, the identity of All Beings.

>>12079241
Do the angels sin in heaven?

>>12079245
You are born with it, it is you.

>>12079253
Nope. I said earlier in the thread angels do not sin.

>>12079245
Many see free will as a curse. That's because you aren't aware of the benefits of having it. Many of us prefer to pretend that we don't live in the universe that we do, but eventually we all sober up to the fact that it has some rules that if you play correctly by, you end up happier.

>>12079261
But angels are not God
>>12079241

>>12079267
They do not have free will. They are not able to act in sinful way.
God has free will.

>>12079201
God explains it as a simple love for his creation in genesis. Then, after we disobey him out of curiosity and develop the knowledge of good and evil, we have crossed a line and cannot return unless redeemed. Its brought down to a human level in the Bible literally because we are humans and cant understand the "mysteries of god". His reasoning for creating us is shaky at best. His reason for creating us is dumb, but that doesn't mean we can't have a decent reason for his argument of free will. Reasoning and value only exist (in this context) with relation to god. Thats how you are judged on entering heaven anyway. God constructed reality in this way, again, "as a mystery of faith" of sorts. Why he decided to create the universe, if not out of an exercise of boredom, is almost beyond all reasoning.

There are some things that make sense and can be argued in Christianity. But the reason for WHY it was all made really has no concrete answer.

>>12079211
>>12079236
Certainly, but it is through god that we depart ourselves from the animals. 1.) because god made us masters of them. And 2.) because we have the knowledge of good and evil. We did not sin until we had eaten of this fruit (biblically of course).

Jesus was not truly free.

>>12079269
Where did the mythical Lucifer come from?

>>12079254
>>12079262
So I have to have free will because the creator says I have to? Doesn't that contradict the point of free will?

>>12079269
And yet the angels are much happier than we. Do we not strive to be them some day? Why, then, do we say it is a good thing to have free will, when it may lead to suffering?

>>12079234
I wasn't conflating monotheists with pantheists. I was pointing out how monotheists must inevitably come to the realization, if they smart enough to, that they create both their heaven and their hell. By choosing to believe in heaven and the good, they are also choosing to believe in hell and sin, and by fearing one they come to feel love for the other.

>>12079273
He was casted down from heaven because he attempted to betray God. All others in his nature where also casted down. God Cursed him to be a slave of sin there after, and no longer could Lucifer do any good.

>>12078992
>the differences between denominations
The mere fact that there are so many different nominations proves that there are differences in how it's practiced and that it's changed over time.

>>12079278
Redemption is the greatest of all fruits a human can bear. This is why we have free will even if we must suffer.

>>12079284
You forgot to say that all the other angels became “slaves of good,” since they obviously had free will before, but now, as you say, they do not.

>>12079279
You sound like a nihilist that blames mom and dad for giving him life. Lol

>>12079293

Not him but I agree, they would be slaves. HOWEVER, god is only (for whatever reason) concerned about the covenant between himself and man. Angels don't really equate into that.

>>12079285
Right because it's totally impossible to Love Jesus and abide by the rules of the New Testament.

>>12079290
If you have free will, tell me, why do you sin when you KNOW it is wrong? Is there something wrong with your free will organ?

>>12079293
Angels are slaves of God and always will be, this is why Satan was jealous of Humans

>>12079279
Pretty much, yes, and that's a valid reason to be angry. Anger towards God is something we all need to sort out. I wish having anger did something, but it doesn't seem to do anything other than make life worse.

Pretty much, there is no way but up if you want to avoid suffering. Suffering is kind of the way we find our way back to higher ground anyway, and once we're up there we are much happier for having gone that way.

I didn't make the rules, this is just the universe we find ourselves in. The rules work like this. Ask God yourself why. It is indeed a mystery.

>>12079305
It's really hard to overcome sinful ways anon. They are chains.

>>12079305
Temptation. A twist of values and justifications. For an example, read the book of Genesis.

>>12079280
These are things that exist by the very nature of existence. Our reality is built upon the things that have preceded us. Are we to suppose that before the original sin, reality was not compromised to the Aristotleian contradictory of Good and Evil? Perhaps, but we need not worry about it now, only we should recognize it’s not a social construct. Our notion of what evil is, is surely discovered, not invented. Like a square or circle. Obviously one of these shapes is linked to infinity, the other is not. Finding out principles such as this about various facets of moral behavior is how we have come to our current morality.

God has simply acted as another agent in the process and helped us to find these basic principles.

>>12079311
yes, for example, I know I need to get to bed but I am choosing to stay up to argue with anonymous strangers on the internet, who I will barely influence. My ego thinks that I will have some sort of positive effect that will bring more light into the world, but I would probably be more effective if I was better rested.

>>12078767
I like how you make a distinction between atheists and the godless. A smart atheist is merely a monotheist with values that are inverse from the Christian's. There is a single ultimate source, but it's not external to the "I", it is the "I".

>>12079311
Who’s to say that good ways or not also chains? How do you know you aren’t chained in every direction?

/lit/ made me unironically believe in God and I sincerely thank you for that

>>12079307
I'm not angry, I've actually lived a bit of a charmed life and am pretty content. I only present my point to illustrate the flaw in certain people's thinking regarding free will and god.

>>12079314
>Our notion of what evil is, is surely discovered, not invented.
It's both. To say it's only one or the other is to deny the whole kit and caboodle.

>>12079305
Romans 7:14
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

>>12079317
Because I know the feeling of being liberated from these chains, achieving goals becomes that much easier.

>>12079315
I think our boat can handle a stormy sea every now and then.

>>12079317
Free will determines that you aren't chained to good things. Good is hard, good takes patience and commitment and many other virtues. Evil is easy and often tempting. You strive to be more like god/Jesus. You strive to be good by releasing your burdens of evil.

>>12079322
It didn't work, you are intellectually masturbating in an echo chamber.

>>12079325
Then free will is a meaningless concept.
Romans 9

If evil is wrong, why does it feel so right?

>>12079331
>Free will determines that you aren't chained to good things
What a funny sentence! I have free will, but only at certain times!

>>12079340
Libido dominandi

>>12079332
masturbation is healthy in moderation

>>12079317
Jeremiah 2 NIV
20“Long ago you broke off your yoke

and tore off your bonds;

you said, ‘I will not serve you!’
Good ways could also be "bonds" "chains", they represent slavery to the Lord.

>>12078562
kek

>>12079341
The original person who wrote about chains probably shouldn't have called them that. They are burdens that neg at you to pay attention to them. Humanity is predisposed to do evil as mentioned for being easier than good things. However, free will is a matter of choice. We can choose to avoid evil and embrace the good or vice versa. It is the act of choosing that is free, not the things that draw us. This "law" is determined in our creation, not in our nature/development/"theological evolution"

>>12079302
Where did I say that? Jesus teachings provide the basic precepts for Christianity but you're being willfully ignorant if there weren't plenty of rules, rulers, thinkers, and theologians who made changes to how it's preached and practiced.

>>12079347
it takes work and commitment to maintain those good ways tho. While yes, they could be considered bonds and slavery, it is easier to do evil than it is to do good and as a result the "bondage of good" is a tenuous one at best. Again, it is about your ability to choose that is your free will, not the choices themselves.

>>12079352
If we truly had free will, we could easily remove all sin from ourselves. I think we don’t have free will because we do
sin. Imagine how different the world would be if we didn’t have free will...
It wouldn’t be different at all.

>>12079360
Definitely. Another relevant verse:
Romans 6:20-23 says, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

>>12079364
free will is the ability to choose. It has nothing to do with human nature. By eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we learn of the difficulty of good and the ease of evil. This is what constitutes the inherent limitations of human nature (biblically anyway). But our OG creation meant that we had free will to choose, we just had no other choice at first. We all could be good, if we chose to. But many won't because evil is very tempting then if everyone is just being super nice and all.

>>12079355
Do you seriously think the Christianity in the new Testament just disapeared?

>>12079379
>We all could be good, if we chose to.
Source: fantasyland
Please tell me, what does a world without free will look like?

>>12079379
What do you mean by "choose?" Describe the process of making a choice.

>>12079385
No you fucking idiot. How dense are you?

>>12079397
So you do contest that Christianity as originaly taught is still able to be found, if it didn't disappear?

>>12079387
>>12079393
Biblically, a world without choice is Adam and eve existing in the garden of eden before satan tempted them. Unconcerned for the plight of man and content to live only slightly better than an animal.

Choice would entail weighing options with regard to personal and group interests. There are many facets to this, almost uncountable amounts. Making a good choice and a bad choice is subjective and sometimes not always obvious to the chooser. But god, like Santa Claus, is always watching and judging to see if you act according to his laws.

>>12079397
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his
brother without a cause shall be in danger of the
judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca,
shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall
say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

>>12079273
"I am that which eternally wills evil, but eternally works good"

>>12079385
Fucking Paul ruined everything REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>12079410
>>12079410
>Adam and Eve didn’t have free will
>all of human sin stems from decisions made by people who had no other choice but to sin

>Choice would entail weighing options with regard to personal and group interests
This happens deterministically all the time. See animals and A.I.

>>12079412
Sounds like a lie.

>>12079409
Can you follow this conversation:
>Anon claims paganism restricts society because it's stagnant
>I claim that paganism could change over time and that Christianity has also changed over time
>You claim I'm saying the new testament version of christianity doesn't exist anymore
>I deny this and state many things have been added and tweaked in many different denominations since the founding of christianity but the basic precepts are still the same

Really this shouldn't be that hard.

I don't see why God has to be all powerful. Most of the gods humans have believed in had limited power levels. Pretty much all the retarded shit in Christianity is a direct result of God being the Mary Sue of deities. Just say he's the most powerful god, not infinitely powerful. Infinite power isn't even a meaningful concept (can God create a stone so heavy...).

>>12079429
Sounds like the truth, rather. That is what we all do.

>>12079439
Why do you say, "We eternally work good?" Only the Lord eternally works good.

>>12079436
He's infinitely powerful out of psychological necessity for Christians.

>>12079425
animals and A.I. cannot make decisions on the level of personal philosophies (yet).

Yes, I should have clarified. Adam and Eve did have free will but abided by god's laws solely because disobeying them was never a concept they considered. I suppose a system of no free will would be of one such that they sit there not moving or thinking at all as a thought that drive them otherwise would not exist. Limited free will would mean they would only ever abide by the laws of the garden and would never have been tempted because they were in the total bounds of that set of rules

>Evil exists
>implying humans are inherently evil
This where both sides of this argument go wrong

>>12079443
We all believe we are the heroes of our own stories.

>>12079450
Jesus is the hero.

>>12079452
And you feel yourself heroic for championing him. You champion him because then you feel yourself to be an extension of him.

>>12079445
>I suppose a system of no free will would be of one such that they sit there not moving or thinking at all as a thought that drive them otherwise would not exist
What if their brains were deterministic and produced certain reactions, forcing them to behave a certain way, as if they were like animals? Is this impossible to you?

>>12079455
I am a wretch who is not worthy of Jesus. I feel like I haven't even done my duty as a Christian in this life.

>>12079432
I deny the true substance of Christianity has changed over time.

>>12079429
Goethe is smarter than either of us anon.

>>12079458
You are humble and self-degradating for the same reason: because it makes you feel like the hero in your story for doing so. And so you eternally work good.

>>12078580
If God is all-knowing, then why doesn't He just create a universe where we already understand these insights? Why force us to suffer if He could just skip right to the end result? If He could have prevented suffering without any effort, doesn't it make Him evil if He doesn't?

>>12079466
But not I

>>12079456
No, its not impossible to me. I'm not even christian. But biblically, the only reason we arent like that is because god gave man dominion over animals and thereby set us on a pedestal above them (for some reason). Supposedly animals didn't even act like animals in Eden until Man was kicked out (I.E. they never fought or killed for sustenance, supported by the passage in revelations where the lion and the antelope lay next to each other and eat hay). Humans, in eden, were just ridiculously simple A.I.'s

>>12079471
I am telling the truth because I fear the Lord.

>>12079472
Our suffering is are own cause

>>12079462
What do you mean by true substance?

>>12079476
You nonetheless esteem yourself even in fear.

>>12079483
The Way of the New Testament, I believe it has been upheld.

>>12079484
I do not esteem myself as worthy of, or as having earned, the righteousness which comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ. I have no further interest in this dialogue.

>>12079421
This but unironically

>>12079494
You esteem yourself as worthy of yourself no matter what you do. This is what the ego does. You aren't ego-less, no matter how hard you try to lie to yourself on this matter.

>>12079499
It's untrue.

>>12079501
Cringe dude, stop trying to deny a mans faith. You are acting like a wolf in sheeps clothing, you're not wise for injecting your words into his dichotomy.

I'm an incel. I'm ugly, short, not very bright, shy, boring, and depressed. Give me a singular reason why I shouldn't despise G*d.

>>12079509
Sounds like you're just super self concious and full of self loathing. To me, you seem depressed. God wants you to be happy, he wants you to live life to your fullest potential.

Why would you want to hurt one of the only persons to Love you?

>>12079504
I can be a Luciferian and argue for Luciferian values if I want. If that offends him, that's his fault for participating on such a website.

>>12079519
No one cares what you believe in. But what you are doing is spiritually harmful, and God does punish those that commit to such acts.

I'm asking you to stop.

>>12079518
If God truly loved me, why didn't he grant me Chad body and a big dick? That'd make me happy. I say our current God doesn't love us enough, and should try fucking better.

>>12079522
Everything Christians say is spiritually harmful for Luciferians. I don't care if you can't take what you dish out. I was just arguing in favor of Goethe's quote anyway.

>>12078456
> If there is a God why is there evil?
> t. the 13-year-old edgeprince who thinks that he is smarter than all of the greatest philosophers

Define Cold. Define Darkness Define Evil.

Cold is the lack of heat.
Darkness is the absence of light.
Evil is the absence of good.

Just as for light and heat, there is only good in the universe. God did not create Evil, because evil is not a thing in itself rather the absence of good.

The lack of good exists because God gave us the freedom to choose to love him, and thus love good, and be good. By refusing, we ostracize ourselves from good and are thus in lacking of good or "Evil".

So, in conclusion, the first block of this flowchart is fallacious. This is literally Theology 101, your argument to "destroy Christianity" can be refuted by any random nun or any person who has been to a Catholic high school.

>>12079346
Only mental masturbation anon.

>>12079540
That pic talks about the risk of excessive masturbation. Anon clearly said masturbation in moderation.

>>12079537
Your "refutation" is pretty bad because, especially in classical definitions, the definition of "good" doesn't necessitate bad.
Goodness would simply be equated with what is virtuous, that is the set of behaviors that are in accordance with the telos of man.

>>12079540
Imagine unironically thinking that fapping can destroy you as a person. Imagine, fully seriously believing that tugging your cock for 10 minutes for a bit of fun is going to destroy you as a person. Imagine being THAT fragile. What horrifying existence.

>>12079554
It does have an effect on your hormonal balance. But like all imbalances, it can be used to your advantage if you're clever enough.

>>12079534
t. has not read Faust

>>12079533
Having a big dick doesnt grant happiness anon

>Evil exists
No

>>12078718
Address the argument that you overlooked to meme. God allows evil for the purpose of virtue.

>>12079324
Not true at all. Morality is like shapes. There can only be certain shapes, just as there can only be certain morals

>>12078962
Not the same guy, but you know you might have a head start on having people take your argument seriously if you didn't start with calling your opponent a retard.

The short term high volume of this thread suggests that /lit/ Christian apologists are, in fact, LARPing faggots who can't meaningfully refute the axial crux of the OP's image, who I am not. This is good. Take the first two replies, say.

>>12079615

This is the single dumbest post that I've read on 4chan during 2018 thus far.

>>12079708
>t. cant into Riemann

>>12079686
What do you call someone who slaughters a whole family of nobles or professionals or church going people for fun and does so unrepentant, and with the intent to commit similar deeds again for as long as possible?

>>12078456
I'm not Christian (own, personal, 90% secular beliefs amounting roughly to "I'm agnostic or something, yeah sure... just check that one"), but this is dependent on a hair splitting oversimplified understanding of omnipotence.

Putting myself into a position where I'm not on the fence about the existence of a monotheistic deity, maybe God is not "omnipotent" in such an overly literal sense.
Maybe God is as omnipotent as something can be omnipotent. In which case, this hairsplitting is irrelevant and it communicates enough about God.

Hm... Yeah I think that's pretty much my whole argument right now.

>>12079615
debunked

>>12079730
Also issues with what "all-good" is, "evil", and such.
Really, there's a lot of room here. The only leg people have to stand on is the burden of proof.

>>12079745
>people
*atheist people
Should say.

Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
Sister Miriam Godwinson, "But for the Grace of God"

>>12078497
What's his argument?

God Bless all the followers in this thread

>>12079094
Brit here
Love me a bit of jordies

>>12078456
> do parents really have your best interests at heart?
> do they know you don't want to do homework and stay up till two in the morning playing nintendo?
> do they still force you to do homework?
> therefore they're not really your parents but evil clone doubles, QED muffukaz!

>>12079934
>earthquakes and tornado and cholera and deformities and huntington disease are the same as homework
Anon, you really don't want to go there.

>>12079472
Take a moment to imagine how gay a world would be without suffering, where there were no problems, nothing you had to work for, nothing you had to do to maintain yourself. And the point isn't the end but the becoming towards that end.

>>12079029
great post

>>12078456
>evil exists
Wrong

>>12078456
It's not free will if you don't give them every choice.

That's like saying "all females welcome" but then saying "No fatties"

>>12078580
This does not specifically mean "evil deed".
Evil is a sickness, such as black plague, that people have not conjured, yet it destroyed millions of lives (children, old folk, men and women...). What about malaria in africa? I'm sure a lot of niglets learned well from being bitten by a mosquito and dying in agony at the tender age of 5 lmao
Btw they're not going to heaven because they weren't baptised :DDD

>>12078456
The flowchart seems incomplete. There's no 'no' arrow coming off of "evil exists".

>>12078456
daily reminder that gnosticism is a heresy and you deserve the same fate as the cathars if you believe in this shiit

>>12079726
A criminal

>>12080083
But the entire point is supposed to be that God is gay

>>12079730
No one?
I'm curious what people's takes on this are...

>>12078456
evil does not exist. Their exists only Gods Created good, and that which though autonomy decides not to partake in it

>>12080109
>>12080139
>>12080642
Why don't you think evil exists? Do you think good exists?

>>12080799


>this
>>12079537

>>12078456
This thread summarizes the ignorance of humanity. We’d be better off not philosophizing about the Bible and simply doing what it says. Free will, the existence of evil, none of that really matters because we can never assume we know the truth about it all. Instead of trying to understand God, we should be trying to love Him. Instead of asking why He does this or that, we should question our own actions, and remember our own faults. Nothing good can come out of all this pointless discussion

>>12080871
>evil is the absence of good
>...
>the lack of good exists
Therefore evil exists. Well, which one is it?

>>12080875
>We’d be better off not philosophizing about the Bible and simply doing what it says.
THINKING MAKE GRUG'S BRAIN HURT
NO MORE THINKING!

>>12080915
All philosophy can do is increase your mental acuity. It never increases your knowledge about anything. I’d rather stake my life on religion than philosophy.

>>12080922
Without philosophy, you wouldn't even have your Bible, brainlet.

>>12078767
*Augustinian noises*

>Hur durr you are not cold, you just have an abscese of heat, are you warm now?
Wow semiotics win ontology again thanks theologists...

>>12079045
>>12079083

I can only prevent you from acting on your will, I cannot prevent you from willing what you will.

>>12079537
The fuck is this reasoning in /lit/.
Cold is the concept of a measurable, physical quantity called temperature. A thing that can accumulate energy and also can (and will) be cold.
You imply cold is not created because it is ultimately the absence of heat, a physical, quantifiable property of energy.
Can you physically measure cold? Yes, you can, by measuring the lack of heat. Even if cold is not "a thing" you can quantify it.

Darkness isn't the lack of light. Is, however, the lack of brightness, but i'm not trying to get a "got you" here, i understood what you said, so lets go with that. Light is an electromagnetic wave that travels the spectrum, you can measure this waves and quantify their frequency range. For brainlets like yourself, this means how much light i can count to know to which kind of light this particular wave belongs to.
Can you physically measure darkness? Yes, by measuring light and the lack of.

So heat can be measured, light can be measured. Can you physically measure Good?

>>12078456
>the yes path only has questions and two extremely shitty propositions
>the no path only has definitive statements
>hmm.epub

As intellectually lazy as it is conceited. This one is particularly bad:

Does God want to prevent Evil? No. Then God is not good/God is not loving.

The Truth and the Good does not want to prevent anything since it is no so by exemption from other things but despite of other things; neither is it so relative to them or contingent thereon.

>>12081231
great take

the last two "no" arrows are especially aggravating

>>12080979
> what is metaphor.jpg
> For, brainless like yourself, this means how much light I can ( ends sentence)

Even by insisting on technicalities on what is an example to show what evil is. Under your logic,
Can we judge Evil, yes by judging how good it is.

Thus evil is a simple state of being low on good, but as you say relating to darkness or cold Evil is not a thing by itself.

Hey gaytheists god is real, deal w it
*turns John 316 degrees and walks away*

>>12080083
I'm 100% ok with all of that

>>12080966
Of the state of being cold exists, but cold is not a thing in itself, it can only be defined by it's relation to heat

>>12081320
You’re trying to wave the problem away with semantics. Imagine a world where people complained because they couldn’t always see due to the darkness, and complained that God did not create the world full of light. How dumb would it be to say that darkness is just the absence of light? How does that solve the problem in any way?

>>12081320
You completely missed my point here. What i tried to disapprove was the comparison of "hur dur, if cold is the absence of heat then evil is the absence of good, look at me i'm a mathematical theocrat"
>Under your logic,
No, anon used concepts in physics to put an example of what he thinks evil is. First of all, he is fucking retarded for doing so. But i tried to amuse him nonetheless. Then, he compared a measurable unit (temperature/light) with Good, to prove that a created concept like cold and darkness(which was already wrong) is the same as Bad.
No. Stop it.
You can't use empirical arguments to compare your theological opinions and then, when its convenient to you say "hur dur, it was just a metaphor"
Keep your bible outside of the classroom. And while you are at it, stay outside of this board too.

Regardless on your stupidity, I do believe in God. Gives me spiritual peacefulness and makes me less scared of life.

>>12079718
But it’s objectively true
>>12079722
We’re talking about Euclidean space here, the purest of all mathematics

>>12078456
>it's this thread again

>>12078809
>genocide
look who's talking

>>12080925
Wrong

>>12082099
>implying Christianity would exist without Plato and the Stoics
>implying Plato and the Stoics would exist without the Pre-Socratics

>>12080979
temperature is not a unit , it is a scale.
Something can only be considered cold relative to something warm. Try again.

>>12082187
>implying Christianity would exist without Plato and the Stoics
Why wouldn’t it?

>>12082187
Of course it would.

Do you think Jewish Religion cared about Greek philosophy?

>>12082198
The many authors of the Bible were influenced by Plato and the Stoics.

>>12082206
The Christian Bible isn't Jewish exclusively. It's a manifesto for Jewish Platonism.

>>12082213
How so?

>>12082213
Name one

>>12082222
No, it's jewish in all it'a origins anon.
The book of John is written for a greek audience, but it's still Jewish in it's nature.

>>12082226
>>12082237
Can't you faggots use Google? You'll find a ton of fucking literature on Plato's connections to early Christianity with just a little bit of effort on your part. Plato's forms is also clearly related, in the history of philosophy all metaphysics since Plato has been based on his forms, even starts with his forms, and integrates perfectly with Christian metaphysics.

>>12082256
Just because Plato can explain the form of an apple without seeing apple does not mean he invented the apple.

>>12082256
>doesn’t understand his own position and can’t articulate and defend his bold claim
>”g-google it!”
>repeats claim without actually supporting it

>>12082194
You can try to find flaws in semantics or my choice of words. And yet if you don't disapprove the point with an argument, there is no reason for me to try again, as i can safely respond that English is not my native tongue.

I should have responded
>Darkness. Try again.
That's a more /lit/-esque response apparently.

>>12082273
You are clueless.

>>12082275
Do you not know the name Plotinus, anon? Why are you even responding when you clearly don't know shit?

>>12082306
Anon, Christianity does not depend on Plato to depict it's truth, it's the other way around.

>>12082317
You're historically wrong and seem to know nothing about Christian theology.

>>12082306
You’re claiming that Plato and the Stoics influenced Christianity, and that Christianity would not exist without them, but you can’t give one reason for your claim.

I bet you haven’t even read Plotinus, you goof

>>12082333
One is truth, and the other is an interpretation of truth. Not hard to understand anon.

>>12082333
Posting images does not prove your point. I actually am planning on seminary school. Sorry dude.

>>12082338
Christianity doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's part of our intellectual history. You'll find all throughout Christian theology since the early centuries that Plato was deeply involved. And philosophically, Platonism possesses many parallels with Christian metaphysics, as is to be expected since Christian metaphysics was influenced by Christian theologians who were influenced by Plato.

>>12079045
slavery is a choice.

t. ye

>>12078456
It is good and loving to *not* prevent evil and give people the freedom to choose

>>12082345
There's no one universal truth. Not hard to understand anon.

>>12082350
That pic is Aquinas standing between Aristotle and Plato. You think Christian theology is inseparable from Plato? You'll soon learn how wrong you are once you properly study said theology's history.

>>12082378
Do you think Aquinas wrote the Bible?

>>12082357
>more generic assumptions without any proof
>abandons Stoicism and focuses on Plato now
You’re embarrassing yourself at this point

>>12082388
Do you realize someone wrote the Bible, as in a human being?

>>12082378
There is Universal truth, and It's in the Bible.

Are you going to try to debate theology without even being Christian?

>>12082388
the bible is not christianity. the faith as we know it today was heavily influenced by neoplatonic ideals. Augustine dedicates like three chapters of Confessions to breaking this down. this is not up for discussion. its fact.

>>12082394
Yes, obviously and aquinas had no hand in it. Your point is moot. The point of Theology isn't to philosophize it's meaning as Aquinas has done, but to Live it.

>>12082407
>the bible is not christianity.

>>12082407
That's the Catholic Church specifically, not Christianity as a whole, please get your facts straight.

>>12082398
I don't care about debating theology. But if you're going to champion said theology and try and understand how it shaped Christianity in the world you really ought to know its roots.

>>12082408
Aquinas and the other pivotal Christian theologians were influenced by Plato. Deal with it.

>>12082408
how do you propose living it without thinking critically about it?

>>12082421
you mean the catholic church that, for 1500 years, was christianity as a whole?

the one that was the sole christianity during the period that all the philosophers we're discussing were relevant?

what an idiot

>>12082444
Yes, the root of Christian theology is Judiasm.

>>12082444
Doesn't make them correct what makes them correct is proper Theology, and I really don't care if Plato helped them, Platoism and Neo-platoism is but a tool to help create philosophy.

>>12082444
>Aquinas and the other pivotal Christian theologians were influenced by Plato. Deal with it.
So? This doesn’t mean that Christianity wouldnt have existed without Plato (and the Stoics, remember?). You’re obviously trying to change the topic somewhat to avoid embarrassment through your ignorance.

>>12082412
oh lemme guess, we should live only by the Word and nothing else. fuck off protestant

>>12082470
christianity exists AS IT DOES because of Plato.

this is not up for debate. youre arguing semantics like a whiny undergrad.

>>12082465
That's incorrect actually. There have been many different denominations outside the circle of Catholic hold.

>>12082457
By experiencing it and growing from your experience. Which is the point of Theology. I never said philosophy is wrong to do.

if you havent read anything by the church fathers please stop responding to this thread. some people in here are really embarrassing themselves.