/lit/ - Literature

start with the greeks

Check out Bertran Russel's History of Western philosophy

>>12058366
Do what i did and browse wikipedia to get a brief overview and know the important figures and what their key ideas were. I take notes because it ensures I'm processing the information. This shouldn't take too long.

Then select a couple of texts that interest you the most and dive in (providing it's not too far in the deep end, but it probably won't be). If you're not sure what to start with, go with Plato. Don't start with a big list, because what you want to read will change as you read and learn more.

>>12058400
You'll definitely want to read the Greeks, but don't just start with them if you're much more interested in, say Nietzsche.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y8_RRaZW5X3xwztjZ4p0XeRplqebYwpmuNNpaN_TkgM/mobilebasic?pli=1

>>12058400
>>12058407
>>12058435
>>12058448
all very good stuffs (especially the google doc jesus christ). These should keep me comfy for months to come, cheers

>>12058448
>mobile

>>12058366
if you didnt instinctively start doing this when you were about 13 there is no hope for you

>>12058559
This but not necessarily philosophy, goes for anything really.

>>12058559
>>12058578
Please, I've had no trouble taking up hobbies (literature, philosophy, fitness) in my early 20s. Not too late at all, and it doesn't take long to catch up if you have a brain.

>>12058366
You can't learn philosophy outside of a classroom setting unless you're already a trained philosopher imo

>>12058559
it'll probably be fine, plenty of people think mathematically by default but have never bothered to take philosophical education seriously due to circumstances

>>12058643
what does it mean to be a trained philosopher? Just want to check out how those old people think

>>12058667
it means you've done the 5 year indoctrination camp to make sure you don't hate women and minorities

My recommendation is to do this:

>read a decent history of western philosophy (e.g Copleston)
>jump right into the moderns with Descartes' Discourse on Method and Meditations
>read the major works of Spinoza, Leibniz, Locke, Berkeley and Hume

Now you've arrived at Kant and the Germans, and the training wheels are officially off. At this point you need to go back to the Greeks and read as much Plato and Aristotle as possible, and some medievals at least. If you can, find the Oxford volume "The First Philosophers" to start you off properly. Peter Adamson's podcast is always good for a broad context. I also like Routledge History of Philosophy volumes as companions, they're a more academic treatment.

The reason I recommend a path like this is because the early moderns are really fun to get into, and their debates are engaging. Descartes abandoned overt dependency on past philosophers and the rationalist-empiricist banter mostly followed this, basically constituting a new tradition. However, Kant and most future philosophers pull on a wider history of thought, specifically Aristotelianism, so it's best to have a proper understanding of the Greeks and traditional metaphysics to see what they're doing.

>>12058633
Why couldn't you do it before? Too busy getting high and fucking lolis?

Read either the works or the commentary on the works in any order.

I think it's easier to read the commentary first, so the primary source is easier to parse.
e.g. Plato's republic can be dense and often questions posed seem innocuous or unimportant, even if you recognize as every line being necessary, you can't infer what the importance is, but with commentary, you'll more readily assess that the passage in question refers to the greater claims in the book made by the expert you referred to, and the connections made may give you a better understanding of what the text is trying to impart, rather than going into it blind.

But, the benefits of going into it blind and then reading secondary material allow you to return to the text and not have your opinions completely obscured by some doctor, and allows you to harbor some original thought, maybe.

>>12058686
You can also do this, it's not a bad way to start at all.

>>12058686
Those old dead dudes talk like fags and their shit's all retarded. Ignore this anon and start with my boys, the romantics. Plato, a basic logic textbook and some broad secondary so you can nod knowingly when these pseuds on /lit/ are namedropping dipshits like (((Locke))), then move on straight to people tackling with how the enlightenment ruined everything, Kierkegaard and Nietzsche will do fine at first. From there, the world's your oyster. You can now go back and read the Greeks in actual depth to understand whatever the fuck Nietzsche was talking about, or you can go back and read the grandpas they were criticizing (I personally recommend Hobbes) or you can go and go full pomo and read Marx and his protiges

>>12058667
Oh come on. We all know how impenetrable some of this stuff is. There is always the chance that you will misinterpret some of the old people, and that's where a professor can step in and correct you. Learning it on your own isn't entirely fruitless, but I think you will hit a ceiling that can only be broken through in a classroom setting. I say all of this with respect!

>>12058685
>5 year indoctrination camp to make sure you don't hate women and minorities
Depends on the strength of the department. I know many philosophy students who are incredibly against women having any sort of political power.

>>12058730
>Oh come on. We all know how impenetrable some of this stuff is. There is always the chance that you will misinterpret some of the old people, and that's where a professor can step in and correct you. Learning it on your own isn't entirely fruitless, but I think you will hit a ceiling that can only be broken through in a classroom setting. I say all of this with respect!
Oh please, not everyone is a brainlet with no reading comprehension, and plenty of idiots study philosophy at university without actually understanding anything.

>>12058738
>Oh please, not everyone is a brainlet with no reading comprehension
Fair enough, but you still need to be immersed in the material. That means reading, going to lectures, asking questions, engaging in discourse, writing essays, etc. If you can supplement that outside of a classroom, then more power to you. I'm just trying to explain that this will take more than just reading each Sunday. I'm sure people here have great reading comprehension (this IS /lit/ after all).
>idiots study philosophy at university without actually understanding anything
Sure. But they aren't the ones getting A's in upper-level courses.

>>12058730
misinterpretation, in of itself, is not bad. dogma is.

>>12058407
Don't do this. Anthony Kenny is far superior as he's not a butthurt Whig.

>>12058765
>But they aren't the ones getting A's in upper-level courses
But pursuing it to this extent as a proper student isn't the only way to learn philosophy. That's like the difference between being on a college track team and running as a hobby for your health or just because you enjoy it. Sure, you may injure yourself if you don't know what you're doing, so you should research proper form, but that doesn't mean that running isn't a very worthwhile hobby.

I see nothing wrong with approaching it as a hobby, especially with the advent of the internet with so so many resources and guides to what books to read available. The need for a professor to understand the material is lower than ever now.

>>12058366
here friendly frogposter

Buy chainlink

>>12058794
that chart is so bad it's actually embarassing.

Plato and stirner is all you need, everything else is just rambling.

>>12058791
I think Anthony Kenny is the best general introduction to the ancients and medievals. He's clearly well read in these fields, and being an Aristotelian basically gives you the best key to understanding all of philosophy before Bacon/Descartes (other than Plotinus).

With the moderns is where I start to have major problems with his typical anglo prejudices, however. For example his treatment of both Hegel and Marx is atrocious, at one point I remember he claims that Marx "invented the theory of dialectical materialism" which is a major red flag for any interpreter of Marx. It's still worth a read, just with the acceptance of his being mired in the analytic incomprehension of Hegel.

>>12058814
wat chart

How do I become as philosophical as this man?

>>12058686
>>12058791
I'd do something like this. Start with some sort of manual or brief history of philosophy, or even with sourced quality articles like the ones found in Encarta (the last one was from 2009).

Then dig in in the moderns, or in any philosopher who catches your attention, and keep reading like that, eventually returning to your brief history to find more authors if you're interested.

>>12058686
Why not do it chronologically?

>>12059019
I second this book, it's probably the best single-volume history you can get. Sophie's World is also surprisingly good for a more continental approach, and has the benefit of being a quick novel read.

>>12059023
*Specifically, start with Hellenic writings, then continue with the Holy Bible, early Church writings, and then Faustian. Don't forget to read Semitic and Oriental works.

>>12059023
You can do that, but one tends to become discouraged with Aristotle if you're fresh off the boat, which would be a shame since he's the single most important dude in western civilization. I mean, right now I love puzzling through his Physics and seeing him lay down the entire pre-reneissance world, but when I was new to philosophy I loved Descartes, Spinoza, Berkeley etc., they're easier to read and feel more "current". Spinoza's letters make me legitimately laugh out loud, he's a personal favorite.

Of course it's entirely possible that Plato would instill you with a lifelong love for philosophy, but that was just me.

>>12058366
>By the way, why cant philosophical texts be written in a way that even brainlets can understand?

because there are planes of awareness and understanding a brainlet can't even begin to conceive. he doesn't know what he doesn't know, the more that applies to him the more that makes him a brainlet

just because you're human doesn't mean you're granted equal and unfiltered access to the numen alongside everyone else, no, if there can be an abyss of cognitive ability between Nietzsche and a frog there's certainly one between Nietzsche and joe schmoe.


You have much to learn. Work hard.

>>12059058
What do you think of this guide?
https://www.quora.com/I-want-to-read-the-works-of-great-philosophers-In-what-order-should-I-read-them
I think it's the best starter pack I've seen, but I'm far from knowledgable on the subject, and followed a different path myself.

>>12058545
Lol. No one asked what this picture is about, way to be "mysterious" and "alluring". You think anyone would give enough shit about it?

>>12059083
I don't like this, it's too meandering and throws you the big meme works without any context. Starting with Plato's Republic is pretty bad, Apology followed by early "socratic" works is loads better. The only medieval work he lists is Aquinas' Summa, seriously? I admit I'm sensitive about Thomas since I took a serious course on the non-theological aspects of his thought and admired him for years, but how many people are really going to read the whole Summa? Good starting points are 'Being and Essence' and 'Summa Contra Gentiles', and some volume of selected questions. From the Middle Ages I'd also emphasise Anselm as an accessible pre-scholastic.

Granted he affirms the importance of traditional metaphysics so this is still a better list than many, but a more chronological list would be nice.

>>12059351
... oh wait, I just realized you were referring to Gregory Sadler's post and not that earlier guy. Disregard my post, Sadler is based and I bow before his expertise in this desu.

>>12059351
Thanks for the note on Aquinas, I'll make note of to check those out.

Are Augustine's Confessions work checking out for someone who has never been interested in theology? I had a look at the book last time I was browsing a bookstore, and it seemed pretty comfy.

>>12059392
Augustine is almost comparable to Plato and Aristotle in his influence so there's no question that he's worth reading. I admit I haven't studied him in depth, but Confessions is a must-read and often entertaining. I'd also recommend a short work named Enchiridion (sometimes I saw it called "Handbook of Faith, Hope, Love" etc., it gives his ethical views). City of God is huge so probably a summary with selected parts is recommended before jumping in.

If you're reading pdfs you should check out ccel.org, they have some pretty well organised books on theology and a nice selection of Early Christian Fathers.

As for not being interested, well I'm literally a Marxist so the level of belief has no relevance for me, these are foundational works of western thought.

>>12058366
you start and end with Stirner
the realization that literally everything is a spook creates as a spook creates an anti-spook that is also a spook is a perfect supplement to the realization you had earlier in your life, which said "everything in life goes in circles"
when you ascend to the spookdom, you realize that this is both an instinctive AND "a socially constructed" path and there's like 4 stages and different people with wildly differing world views and opinions are just on a different stage

in chaos, life
in order, life

>>12059488
Thank you, that's helpful.
I do read/check out some books via pdf, but I'll admit I like physical copies when I can afford it.

I can be frugal, but also have such a weakness for nice looking books like pic related, especially when they come in sets to collect and display neatly on a shelf.

>>12058927
the leak has popped

1. Learn the basics of crypto/blockchain and how it works.
2. Learn your local tax laws on crypto trading. or ignore it completely and dont pay taxes, don't matter to me.
3. Search Sergey Nazarov, do your research and make up your own mind about it.
4. Read the White paper.
5. Go to coinbase (Or some other site), make an account and buy bitcoin and/or ethereum. Then go make a binance account, send your bitcoin or ethereum from coinbase to binance then search link in binance and buy that.

There you go /lit/ good luck.

>>12058545
>>12058927
>>12059601

Posts related. If they want to shill, at least shill it right.

>>12059536
I understand your weakness anon, I don't buy hardcovers unless I come across them in a flea market because of the stupid price, but I have a nice shelf of Oxford volumes on philosophy which are my favorites. Unfortunately I don't live in the anglo world so they're harder to grab.

>>12058366
I recommend that you do an hour every day or every other day instead of dedicating just one day to reading philosophy. You will retain what you learn way better this way. It has to do with the way your neurons store long term memory. If you're going to embark on a learning journey, first you should learn how to learn. There's a free course on coursera.org called "Learning how to learn." Look into that if you're interested.