/lit/ - Literature

>>12045923
>hurr they got the power levels wrong
Maybe you're the one who missed the fundamental message

>>12045937
That is not my objection. Learn to read.

>>12045963
Learn to write

Your interpretation of the Iliad, while not incorrect, is a bit flat. The fight between Achilles and Hector is important, in a sense it's the concentrated form of some of the major themes of the book. I haven't seen any pop depictions of the Iliad, so I can't comment on that, but your specific criticism of their supposed character seems invalid.

>>12045983
But it really isn’t. The major themes and conflicts are to do with stuff like
>leadership by ability vs leadership by social mores
>learning of responsibility when your(man)childish actions hurt the people you care about.
>whether fame and glory are worth a young death
>the scramble by a society to find a replacement when the guy who made things work vanishes
>proper mode of behavior even to enemies

The “climactic” fight between Achilles and Hector barely touches upon them. The fight is primarily important because it is one of, but not the only, ways that Achilles grows as a moral figure when he realizes his vengeance is rather hollow; and of course the reclamation of identity embodied in the armor he gets back after the fight. But they’re plot progressions, not thematic ones. The stuff that happens as consequence to the fight is enormously more important than the fight itself.

>>12046083
Achilles is not portrayed as a manchild, he is portrayed as entirely justified in his behavior.
You're just another modern projecting his shit onto the Iliad

>>12046083
Why do you think Hector is depicted with his family before large battles? Why do you think there is a larger focus on the city of Troy before the final battle? Why do you think we spend an entire book describing Achilles preparing for battle, with a large portion of that depicting his shield? What is the primary motif of that shield? There's a duality to war in the Iliad, and, at the very least, the idea of the final fight encompasses and realizes that duality. That's why the resolution with Priam at the end is so important, it brings the duality to a close, full circle. Consider this, perhaps read the book again, and you will see what I mean.

I'm not denying the existence of other themes, or even ranking them in importance, and a proper discussion would take way too long.

Finally,
>learning of responsibility when your(man)childish actions hurt the people you care about.
is absolutely ridiculous, and is a moral lesson from a children's book. Reconsider why you think this is one of the things the book speaks of, please.

>>12046083
>>12046112
Oh, and to add a further point. If the themes you mentioned were all there was to the Iliad, it would not be the famous work that it is. There are many, many other works that explore those themes. This should clue you in to the fact that there are things you've missed.

Main theme of Iliad has to do with the ways of the Divine. How man stands in relation to the world, represented by the Gods.

>>12046108
He is entirely so; all of the Archeans noted for wisdom or cleverness are the ones most hostile to his sitting in his tent and sulking.

>>12046112
>Why do you think Hector is depicted with his family before large battles
Because Hector, more than anyone else, symbolized the communal man; he IS Troy, much more so than Agamemnon is Mycenae or Odysseus is Ithaca. He has no recorded adventures outside the city and it’s struggle, unlike most of the other heroes.

>What is the primary motif of that shield?
The shield is THE iconic instrument of war in Greek thought, and the motif is that Achilles is sent by the Gods, is something very akin to a god, with a god’s shield and a god’s ability to alter fate with his moods (οὐλόμενος is a word used only to describe Achilles and Zeus), a god’s connection with the heavens. It is slightly undercut by a reminder of his inevitable death, but at least for now, divinity is taking the field.

>There's a duality to war in the Iliad, and, at the very least, the idea of the final fight encompasses and realizes that duality. That's why the resolution with Priam at the end is so important, it brings the duality to a close, full circle
This is an extremely modern value injection into the Iliad. You won’t find classical interpreters with the duality of war, and guys like Therisites are figures of mockery. The scene with Priam and the returning of Hector’s body is important because it’s a new beginning, not bringing things full circle; the Achilles of just 3 books ago would not have returned the corpse, as Priam says just about the worst thing he possibly could have to Achilles, reminding him of a cost counted and paid a decade ago. It’s a recognition and submission to societal norms that is motivating Achilles there.

>is absolutely ridiculous, and is a moral lesson from a children's book.
It is hardly ridiculous, and it is very universal. Most of the best works of literature can be broken down into cery simple, very broadly applicable themes, expressed in a complicated fashion.

>>12046256
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XD0FEcK9smE

>>12046256
>He is entirely so
Not even that anon, but you're completely wrong.

>>12046231
I would describe it as something like this, the entire story has to deal with Achilles vying with his destiny, it's about human will and mortality -- the conflict with Troy and the ever approaching battle with Hector has a secondariness to it, it's ultimately an object lesson for Achilles on the mutuality of their humanity. It follows a very clear dramatic thread I thought, but I've not heard a peep of the idea itt supposedly laying bare the themes of one of founding tale of western civilization.

>>12046272
God what an offensively vulgar video.

So what is (if there is one) the main message of the Iliad, or what is the main theme?

Jesus is Achilles and forgiveness is the path to happiness.

>>12046627
Hector is Jesus

>>12046509
>themes

nobody spoil the harry potter books for this kid

>>12046692
Good call.

>>12046380
Bugman response if I'm quite entirely honest with you

>>12045923
>Pop depictions
The Iliad was literally a pop epic

same with tragedy and with Shakespeare

>>12046627
>>12046692
>>12046892

Neither is Jesus.
Christ claimed to be God and never entered into reciprocal violent action. These are monstrous oversights by typical comparative mythologists.
Additionally, Christ willingly sacrifices himself and accepts the role of Scapegoat.
Homer spends his time mythologising and deifying violence. Christ unveils it and shows the world what myth is - the sacralisation of violence.

i just have to say that from a hermeneutical point of view, and from a philosophical ones, that your conclusions are lazy and some what dangerous.

>>12046942
>likening the Iliad to gang violence
No anon, you are the bugman.

>>12045923
Maybe, just maybe the problem is in the fact that they're adaptations of a text over 2500 years old, coming from a culture profoundly different from ours?
>The first fucking line of the poem is an invocation of the Muse to inspire a song about the conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon
I'll fucking shoot the next person I see retelling the invocation of the Iliad, I swear to fucking god.
>Hector can't beat Diomedes. He can't beat Ajax. The two of them are a LOT weaker than Achilles. Achilles defeats a minor god before fighting Hector, whose first reaction when he sees Achilles is to run for his life.
This is below video game-tier reading and thinking.

>>12045923
>>12046256
>Why are 'pop' depictions so bad?
>Why are they all missing the point?
>why is it always reduced?
>why?
>why
>why
God you sound like a whiny bitch. You obviously have this misreading you want to force on everyone here, yet you phrase it as a question, "but why??," so it'll seem like you're open to discussion. What "pop," "modern retellings" are you referring to, exactly? Why don't you go read some criticism instead of tilting at windmills and arguing with the worst that's been thought and written? Bitch.

>when tha winged words hit

>>12046975
The whole message of the Iliad is the struggle of the self. People and power will be taken from us and how we handle those obstacles (or in some cases, life sentences) is through forgiveness. It might be better too broad to say that Achilles or Hector are Jesus, but it’s ignorance not to recognize their influence in his canon.

>>12045923
>>12045923
I watched that BBC Iliad "adaptation" too, it was so fucking bad, like some Clash of the Titans SYFY movie original shit. Really poor.

>>12045923
The Iliad was a powerful message about the dangers of choochie, why do you think the Greeks were all buttfucking boys after this masterpiece hit the shelves?

>>12048977
Did the interracial threesome not thrill you?

It's because movies need action and want to emphasize it more because that is what people want.
But yes the main point of the Iliad is hardly the fight between them. It's about the horrors of war(that is why we have all thous no names introduced just to die), and letting go of anger, how more war and destruction can't fix it.
There are more angles but this is mostly overlooked.