/lit/ - Literature

>>11949141
And becomes redpilled

this board really has it in for dostoevsky lately

>>11949141
I laughed out loud at your post and became happy
*kisses the ground*

Unironically me.
Dostoevsky is the reason why I went with Orthodoxy since tho I had no faith of my own, I believed it for Dostoevsky's sake. In time I came to believe in it for my own.
I went through the gospels and the patristic fathers and found so much beauty. I decided this was what I would commit my life to.
I have since pulled myself from the pit where I was wallowing as a pathetic pervert who jerked off to the most transgressive pornography daily and indulged whatever vice entered my heart. I lost weight, cleaned myself up, started going back to school, and have found an energy within me that I hadn't known since childhood. I have a Love for things and people that is so much more beautiful than any of the pleasures I had been indulging and serving previously. My parents don't frown when they see me anymore.
Thank you Dostoevsky.

>>11949189
God works wonders

Dostoevsky made me an orthodox
now im reading Philokalia

>>11949210
What's it like? I hear it's mainly teachings on Orthodox contemplative prayer

>>11949189
Are you Russian ?

>>11949210
>Dostoevsky made me Orthodox
>female hands
hey constantine, why did you stop posting with your trip. i almost converted to orthodoxy thanks to your posts

>>11949213
I just started reading, so I can not describe it to you. Mainly transmits the thought of Eastern asceticism - my Philokalia volume deals primarily with Jesus' prayer. :-))

>>11949218
I would prefer to convert you only by Philokalia

>>11949189
My story is pretty similar but for me even more important was Kierkegaard

>>11949154
They've heard he's a conservative who wrote good books.

>>11949242
>Jesus' prayer
Oh cool. I've been getting into that lately and found is quite good, especially in times of grace.

>>11949277
it seems like a very advanced text though. ive read some church fathers and texts on orthodox theology, the catechism etc. Will i understand the philokalia or is it too e s o t e r i c for me?

>>11949307
It's great becouse Jesus' prayer was created mainly by monks who tried to fulfill Christ's words about "continuous/constant (?) prayer." I recommend to get some knowledge about this, it's more deeper in theological way than you think. Generally learning to pray is difficult, Jesus prayer helps me, I do not know how about you:-)

>>11949329
I dont think so, texts of Bierdiajew for example were much harder for me.

>>11949373
Learning prayer has been difficult in my experience as well, but lately the Jesus Prayer has helped me immensely. You can use it for deep contemplation but also just saying it now and then during your day. Sometimes you even find yourself saying it without realising it. I especially love doing the Jesus Prayer at Adoration (what I usually do is 30 Jesus prayers and then a Glory Be, and just go round and round my rosary).

>>11949189
yikes

>>11949416
yeah haha fuck people for turning their lives around

Fun thing is that Dostoyevsky, for "orthodox" standarts, is quite heterodox.
His divinification of Russian soil, his christianized saint-simonian ideas, his cheesy "Christ", his views on monacal life.
Leontiev quite slapped him in his writings.

>>11949410
"Sometimes you even find yourself saying it without realising it." That's the point
Thank you for sharing your experience, hearing to the testimonies of other people pushes me to overcome my fear of overcoming some obstacles in the transition to Orthodoxy

>>11949471
delet

>>11949158

>>11949476
Happily. We gotta support each other in this

>>11949141
How do I get a qt orthodox gf?

>>11950528
isn't it obvious?.....BEGOME ORDODOX

>>11949141
M U M M Y
U
M
M
Y

>>11949416
>yikes
leddit

>>11949189
I was going to become Orthodox but I just have no connection to the faith and no way to attend any Church here. Reading Chesterton pretty much sealed the deal on me being a Catholic.

Simmilar story though. Dominus vobiscum.

>>11949141
What's the deal with all this grandeur and idolatry? Christ was for meekness and simplicity. Is kissing icons and lighting candles more important than embracing his actual spiritual teachings? It's unbelievable how remote most so-called religious people from the figures they claim to follow.

>>11950712
(You) are clearly pic related but:

Because the material leads us to the immaterial, walking into a beautiful Cathedral with beautiful music and art brings one closer to God. Jesus did teach ritual - the breaking of the bread, baptism, and specifically entrusting a Church to man. It's never more important than the core of the faith, it leads us there.

Also it's clearly not idolatry because either the subject is not being worshiped or it is not a false God.

>>11950765
Nah, being a bit critical doesn't make me pic related.

>walking into a beautiful Cathedral with beautiful music and art brings one closer to God
Maybe, but the masses will stay at that instead of doing the hard inner work. A person who leads a life in complete opposition to Jesus' teachings will wear a cross or go to church and think everything is okay. What's the benefit here? It's not just Christianity, it's all religions over the world. Ritual and physical worship are more important to people than doing the work.

>>11950939
>the masses will stay at that instead of doing the hard inner work
citation needed

>>11950939
Please read the Church Father instead of the late-life crisis ramblings of a fornicating, drunk, murdering, socialite.
Ecclesiastical ordering is one of the primary things that the earliest Father (the ones that actually walked with the disciples themselves) set out.
here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

>>11950998
>murdering
give me the dirt

>>11950712
your words are terrible ignorance. without the knowledge of Eastern theology, you can not issue such judgments, so maybe first talk to the Orthodox priests or read the texts of the church fathers. Not to mention understanding the idea of icons

>>11949189

my man.

Current catechumen reading the fathers after finishing Fr Rose's Nihilism. Haven't read Dostoevsky yet. Is there one work in particular that you'd recommend? Brothers Karamazov?

>>11949189

lol

damn this board went dumb after /pol/ invaded. where the HELL do the smart people post now. I want to know so I can go there and lurk but never comment, just learn, like I used to be able to do here

>>11950712
I sure do love my churches looking like conference centres

>>11951403
They've all killed themselves

>>11949214
No but if I was smart enough to learn the language I would move there and just pretend I was.

>>11950675
Hey that's good too. Lots of great Catholic thinkers to read and I think Catholicism is definitely a good bastion in America/wherever you are that doesn't have an Orthodox presence.
There's just so much decay within all the Churches nowadays that must be fought. Every good soul vigilant within them counts.

>>11951378
Brothers Karamazov is definitely good, but the one that clinched it for me was Demons (I think Demons might have been the last of his works that I read, actually. But the timing of when I encountered it was downright synchronistic). For me that book is just something else. However, it was really the whole of his works that did it. I wasn't reading them so much as I was consuming them. Crime and Punishment was the first one I think. They are works written by a man who understood life almost exactly as I did.
Dostoevsky is a holy man in my eyes, much more than just a novelist. I owe him much.

>>11949416
>>11951403
lol hush. Pic related runs circles around you and your "intellect".

>>11950712
What do you think is the MOST important part of Christianity, Anon?

I'll give you a hint:

>While Jesus was in Bethany reclining at the table in the home of Simon the leper, a a woman came with an alabaster jar of expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke open the jar and poured it on Jesus’ head.

>But some of those present expressed their indignation to one another: “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for over three hundred denariib and the money given to the poor.” And they scolded her.

>But Jesus said, “Leave her alone; why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful deed to Me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them whenever you want. But you will not always have Me. She has done what she could to anoint My body in advance of My burial. And truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached in all the world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her.”

>>11951422
What do you recommend for someone interested in getting into Florensky?

Brainlet christcucks man

>>11951486
I'm not certain how much of his stuff has made it into English yet but 'The Pillar and Ground of the Truth' is sort of his flagship work. It is also very expensive, I think usually at least $60+. It is also very dense (from what I hear, I have only gone through fragments of it but will eventually get my hands on a full copy). 'At the Crossroads of Science & Mysticism: On the Cultural-Historical Place and Premises of the Christian World-Understanding' is a short and sweet work. 'Beyond Vision' is about aesthetics and 'Early Religious Writings' is pretty self explanatory.
Also snipe around for some commentary on him. Andrew Louth has written some good stuff on him.
I'm really just now getting into the more modern Orthodox stuff since I had previously been tarrying with the antenicene - nicene church fathers.

>>11951378
Look at this painting, it shows that all are equal before God. All classes of society are present - aristocracy, clergy, poor, rich, military, traders, workers, peasants. This is a great piece of art.

>nobody itt realizes that Dostoyevsky was actually ironic with his belief in God

>>11949141
She needs to be gangbanged by Ukranian BVLLS

>>11951504
>you: brainlet christcucks
>brainlet christcucks: discussing literature and culture, improving the boards quality and on-topicness
I'm an atheist but come on. Those brainlets you speak of often have the best posts, better than fucking twitter/facebook/reddit 'leftist' shitposting and ignorance the board is rife with. Those types don't even read, let alone attempt to make original or intelligent posts. They just algorithmically repeat a limited set of memes, no thought whatsoever.

>>11951540
Ironic belief is the only sort of belief we are capable of. This is why Dostoevsky and Kierkegaard are the defining Christian writers here.

>Jesus himself designates Peter as the founding-rock of the Church, from which there is a clear line running to the present day for all to see
>Orthococks want to keep Uncreated Light and other Dungeons and Dragons powers so the scuttle into darkness voluntarily

>>11949210
post feet

>>11952007
>from which there is a clear line running to the present day for all to see
nice fanfiction

>>11951378
Damn 19th century russian school's paintings are so tacky... The painters were very well skilled no doubt, but they all look cartoonish, overtly melodramatic and caricatural. They look like contemporary digital paintings: boombastic rendering but borderline cringe subjects and scenery.

>>11949189
Just imagine where'd you be if you had become Protestant

>>11949189
Its still a lie though

>>11951403
>not quitting the internet like a real smart person

>>11952089
in hell?

>>11952620
Why would you become Protestant in hell, anon? That's too late.

>>11951435
Faggot

>>11949154
I don't understand it either. There's also the whole Tolstoy vs Dostoevsky thing here too that I've never seen elsewhere.

You can enjoy both writers.

>>11949429
>turning their lives around
he still shitposts on 4chan, the only difference is he's either larping or schizo

>>11951409
Doesn't sound very smart.

>>11949154
Unintelligent college students like to eke out an "identity" for themselves by shitting on people whose accomplishments they could never, in a million years of serious effort, come close to matching. Seriously, read the shit people post in the writing threads on this board. I know how these tards think; they hear that Nabokov or Chekhov didn't like Dostoyevsky and decide that that's now going to be their "patrician" opinion. It's easy for stupid people to pretend to hate a book or author because they only pretend to like books or authors. They don't engage with details and their entire personalities are mismatches of memes they think will appear good to other people. I really pity them.

>>11952552
This. But this is where Kierkegaard comes in.

>>11951422
> I wasn't reading them so much as I was consuming them
>They are works written by a man who understood life almost exactly as I did.
cringe

>>11952552
Just be a knight of faith bruh

>>11952552
less of a lie than anything else

>>11952552
Consider the alternative that you have put your faith in and consider which is truly the most "rational."

Once a man stops believing in God, he stars believing in Everything Else.
Blind faith manifests everywhere, and if you cannot recognize it in yourself, you have a serious misunderstanding of your own human core.

>>11949416

die

>>11953287
lol who cares nerd

>>11953287
Wise anon.
>>11953336
If you feel anger and irritability towards those living unexamined lives rather than just pity, you yourself are surely living in ignorance.

>>11949154
pro-tip: "guide to unhappiness" - by Watzlawick.

Or just look up Watzlawick himself on Wikipedia. In every german school you read at least one of his articles on Nitzsche and Dosto.

>>11949189
wholesome post

>>11949210
witam rodaka, nie spodziewałem się, że w takich okolicznosciach

>>11951435
The anointing of a King with oil was a custom going back to Saul

>>11949154
>lately

>>11953500
A i ja mówię dzień dobry:-)

>>11953562
Nie czujesz się tu trochę nieadekwatnie promując prawosławie posród nitek o akceleracjoniźmie?

>>11952861
Shitting on Dostoevsky is actually a great pasttime.
It's perfect for trolling 19 year old retards who've just read their first book and now think they're the epitome of /lit/

>>11953933
Właśnie myślę, że to miejsce jest najzupełniej adekwatne. Gdzie indziej jak nie wśród ludzi w większości nieokreślonych? "Cerkiew istnieje przede wszystkim dla grzeszników, dla niedoskonałych, dla umierających." Ja sama byłam tu właśnie taka

>>11953992
Nice projecting
I read Karamazov when I was only 15 fight me irl brainlet

>>11954045
>makes generalized statement
>retarded narcissist thinks it's directly about him

>>11954056
You'll never catch up to me, kid.

>>11949288
This

>>11951422
>I wasn't reading them so much as I was consuming them
Let's never use that terminology again, ok?

>>11949141
I respect for Orthodoxy for its defense of community and modesty. I have looked into the religion but ultimately couldn't bring myself to convert because it would contradict my disbelief of the supernatural because of its irrationality and lack of evidence. I can't see why conservatism can be defended even more so with rational evidence, i.e. a nuclear family is the healthy way to go because of empirical evidence not traditional myths.

>>11954198
If you're looking at belief from a utilitarian perspective you're already wrong

>>11954224
And why is that?

>>11954027
wbrew sobie jestem w stanie to docenić. czasem mam wrażenie, że skok wiary wymaga tyle samo odwagi co najbardziej bezlitosne rozważania sceptyka

God is Great

>>11949154
The Brothers Karamazov is the supreme summit of all literature, after all.

don't much care for religion
don't much care for morality
but I do love Alyosha and that's all that matters

>>11954296
I'm like two face from Batman I flip a coin heads for Ivan tails for Alyosha haha if I'm horny I kill my papa

>>11954296
that's a little gay

four cute facts about Alyosha
1. he's the only one that looks at me without condemnation
2. he's super cute
3. Alyosha!!!

>>11949210
>Dostoevsky made me an orthodox
this is why women shouldn't read

>>11954312
4. people slam their finger in the door for him

>>11954312
Myshkin > Alyosha

>>11954327
Stavrogin > Ivan

>>11949189
That's a beautiful story anon. I have a question or two if I may?
I have been recently more interested in Christianity, thanks to Jordan peterson bible series actually (I know, he is a pop intellectual who regurgitated Jung but that's just how I found myself taking the bible more seriously).
The problem is i dont really believe in the "extra normal" parts of it like the resurrection and Jesus being the literal son of God.
Some devout Christians told me academic readings like Jung and JBP miss out on the fundamental gifts that faith offers by going at the bible with a scalpel, but I don't know if I can get past that level of reading, because I don't have that Kierkegaard kind of faith.
Based on your conversion experience, am i missing something by not accepting JC as my Lord and saviour in a true and full way?

>>11954334
Shut up and do work you absolutely dumbass

>>11954333
Smerdyakov > Ivan > Stavrogin

>>11949476
Not too familiar with Dosty, could you fill me in on what was so weird about his view of Christ?

>>11954327
low iQ impulses > Dmitri

low iq thread

>>11954342
Goryanchikov> Stavrogin > underground man > Ivan > Smerdyakov

>>11954338
Are you drunk anon? That sentence was pretty glorious actually, I'm not even mad.

>>11954358
Verkhovensky>everyone else

>>11954362
Just mobile but your post are a dime a dozen on lit. 'what translation's 'how should I go about this' 'hey you seek to have done some legwork I have put off can you spoon-feed me'
Just begin motherfucker.

>>11949210
h-hot

>>11954368
senior?

>>11954384
junior

>>11954372
the question he asked is hardly as basic and DIY as "what translation should i read"

>>11954387
Not really it's just another example of wanting someone else to do the work for you before you even begin. If you have to ask some person on a board about what you're missing to achieve faith then maybe you'll never achieve shit.

>>11954391
rude

>>11954401
But it's true and is going to be the result of nearly all of Jordan Peterson's drones

>>11954405
maybe helping them will help them rise about being peterson drones?

>>11954334
>I have been recently more interested in Christianity, thanks to Jordan peterson bible series actually
No this is ultimately bad. Peterson has no business delivering exegeses on anything Christian related. He is so unqualified it is almost physically disgusting how badly he gets it wrong. I would preference Philo's biblical exegeses over Peterson's hands down.
>like the resurrection and Jesus being the literal son of God.
Yes, these are without doubt the most significant obstacles and that I struggled with the most and still do. However, a very good read for this sort of thing is Bulgakov's trilogy on Orthodox Theology and god-manhood. The first book is 'The Lamb of God'. Also, if you haven't read On First Principles by Origen, that for me was another turning point in my conversion since even though parts of it are held to be heretical (Origen was still drawing strongly from a Neoplatonic cosmology) it nevertheless shook off the last of the "Materialistic" conceptions of Christianity that Western Protestantism had soiled me with.
>because I don't have that Kierkegaard kind of faith.
Well Kierkegaard is probably one of the best sources for this issue. Which of his works have you read? Be sure to read Fear and Trembling and The Sickness Unto Death. Kierkegaard came pretty close to Orthodoxy a lot of times. Works of Love is one of his best works if you haven't read it already and that too will help with this.
>Based on your conversion experience, am i missing something by not accepting JC as my Lord and saviour in a true and full way?
Yes, the whole crux of Christianity is Jesus as the literal Son of God come as Savior. This must be accepted with all your heart, if not initially your mind. But your mind is not nearly so important as it likes to think. The heart has the higher hierarchical status.

>>11954414
How about not helping them if they won't help themselves and glance at some of the literature Jordan Peterson name-drops while smearing shit in the face of, then you can actually start a path of healing and stop bumping around in the dark feeding on scraps

>>11954372
>>11954391
By that logic my question (whether I should trust the salvation of my immortal soul in Jesus Christ) is the same as every Christian being lazy and asking for an easy answer right?
>hey JC, I dunno how to behave, can I just trust in you to save me when the time comes man?
Come on anon, asking for someone's perspective isn't me expecting them to do the legwork. Ever asked what a person thought of a film you liked or for their opinion on current affairs? Same thing.

>>11954387
>>11954401
Thanks anon, nice to have someone back up your corner when the head cases turn up

>>11954334
>am i missing something by not accepting JC as my Lord and saviour in a true and full way?
I'm still learning myself, but prayer man. Ask God for understanding. Be patient. He is always there for us.

>>11954405
I did literally mention how I thought he was a hack and is only regurgitating Jung.

>>11951422
>>11954418
did you go with it because of the mystique and old school feel or are you the first person on the planet who actually takes their theology over catholic one

>>11949373
It is weird, I read the way of the pilgrim dealing with just that and now see these posts...

I have no orthodox near me and I don't feel comfortable going to a catholic church with my small children with the problems it is having right now. Does anybody have any suggestions for another tradition?

>>11954444
Fuck off moron, never going to make it

>>11954418
Damn anon, that's some real talk, thank you. If it's not too much trouble can I ask what you find particularly bad about Peterson's analysis (and by extension Jung as I think it's all him).

Tbh the idea of Christ being an arch hero archetype by combining the highest virtues of our culture didn't seem to troubling to me, or that the snake in the garden represents man's fear and distrust of the unknown and his aversion to betrayal and lies. And Peterson's commitment to the truth and that Christ was truth embodied (logos at the time of genesis) was pretty interesting to me, but if you have another perspective and think this is a dangerous path I'd love to hear it.

Thanks anon.

>>11954421
>>11954479

>edgelord

>>11954476
heres a hint: catholic and orthodox both have the same amount of pedophilia problems
difference is:
a) catholics are way more numerous and exposed
b) catholics deal with it terribly

if you let public perception of the church you want to be a part of decide you are fucking retarded
its not picking between ice cream flavours, its different theologies, if you think catholic or orthodox or protestant theological arguments are valid it would be common sense to attend that regardless of how its people act

>>11954479
What is wrong with you

>>11954466
That's not wierd at all :)

>>11954492
You're just being a lazy faggot, sorry
>>11954488
Not him but Kierkegaard talks about contemporaneous with Christ, Jordan Peterson goes against this entirely. Its laughable when he talks about how we are visual creatures and scanned for fruit and this relates to admit and Eve. Kierkegaard says historical evidence is against what Christ was, we'd kill him the same with all the evidence of him being the son of God just the same, Christ is an offense and that's why he was crucified. God came lowly not as a king.

>>11952827
the dumb ones are those who stick around

>>11954447
Thanks anon, but as mentioned somewhere in the thread (I think) I am actually an agnostic and a materialist. I have been hammered with the Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris arguments about the impossibility of a ressurection etc. I can't get past that and really believe, so I don't pray. I'm not sure I even believe in a god, but I do see what the bible and Christianity has done for us and how it can transform a lowly wretch into someone better. Right now I'm kind of an agnostic Christian if that makes sense.

>>11954511
>I'm kind of an agnostic Christian if that makes sense
i know what you are saying, but it doesn't
you have accept that Jesus died for your sins and get baptized to be a christian
also you could as easily read patristics and came to the oppsoite conclusion

>>11954334
>academic readings like Jung and JBP
t. youtube drone stuck between wanting and being unable to act upon it
Can it be more pseudo than that?
>dude religion interesting because nice youtube lecture
>wow weird, I must be missing faith
No, you're not reading correctly or not giving it the right amount of thinking. If you're looking for someone to make you a Christian, you should just give up, because that is an exact antithesis of what it means to be a Christian.
>>11954338
Based.

>>11950765
>When such minds commit themselves to the unrestrained ferment of sheer emotion, they think that, by putting a veil over self-consciousness, and surrendering all understanding, they are thus God’s beloved ones to whom He gives His wisdom in sleep. This is the reason, too, that in point of fact, what they do conceive and bring forth in sleep is dreams.
Religious traditions are steppingstones on the road of enlightenment, of the personal discovery of the divine. If you mistake them for ends in themselves you end up clinging to images and afraid that if you let go of them you will lose the truth.

>>11954506
You are an edgelord, I repeat.
>go find out for yourself, asking for help makes you trash
What are you, Nietzsche's last man? A soul against the world? You figured everything out for yourself did you?
Ironically, you even used Kierkegaard arguments to help you convey something to me. Me asking for the orthodox anon help is kinda the same thing is it not? Utter edgy faggotry.

>>11954495
Well, then which one is it that cares more for acts and less for intellectual foundations?

>>11954511
If Hitchens et al. have really done a number on you, I know there are some refutations out there (since their arguments are also basically strawmans; genius strawmans to be sure, but strawmans nonetheless). One I recall is Edward Feser's The Last Superstitution. I'll admit I haven't read any of them, but I've heard about them from friends.

As for the difficulty of believing in God, the supernatural, etc., I was in a similar position as yourself. Althought I don't think I've ever been a fully convinced materialist, I did reach a point (after months and months of thinking about God and such) that I would never be able to 'think' the answer to whether its real or not. Ultimately, the only thing that was left to me was to actually give it a try, so I started going to church (Catholic, since that was my birth religion and I was technically confirmed already). It was not easy, and in all honesty my own conversion is a bit of a mystery to me, but I know that slowly but surely I came to know God through living the Christian life. Though my understanding of Him has been terrible the whole way through, and still is, a year and a half on since I started practicing, I know he's been with me the whole time. Slowly but surely you'll learn to see him and the way that he speaks to us through things, through people, patterns, etc. Ultimately, there is no way to find God than sincere searching.

That's a ramble but I hope it helps. Tbh the Orthodox guys in this thread sound quite a bit more knowlegable than myself, but I wanted to share what little I have with you, as I think its vitally important that you continue searching.

>>11954524
Low effort reading you did there anon. I literally spoke at length about how insufficient I found these people and their lectures. As for asking for help, I suppose if I went to a clergyman and asked him to explain some things to me that'd be lazy too right? I mean, fuck priests, their useless right?
>edgelord conference 2018

>>11954570
Just read Kierkegaatd you shit

>>11954577

>>11954577
I literally said I read Kierkegaard elsewhere in this thread.
>low effort reading by anon becomes even lower effort

>>11954556
Wow thanks man, that's great I will look into the refutation stuff.

As for your conversion story that is quite comforting. I suppose I assumed that my conversion would have to be pretty dramatic and spontaneous to be truthful. I didn't trust myself to work out the issues intellectually as I am always moving between faith and Hitchens et al in my mind. But to hear you have gone through it more slowly and methodically and found some truth is fascinating. Thanks for the support anon, far more positive energy than some of the people in this board as I'm sure you have read.

>>11954547
if you want something that cares about acts and not intellectual foundations then you are looking for jesus movement, not any of the established churches

however pre 60s catholicism is by far the most hardcore of all christian religions

>>11954521
Not familiar with the patristics but if you thinkntheyll help me understand how to be the opposite (a believing Christian) I will take a look. Thanks anon.

>>11954617
most often mistake people do is limit themselves to empiric reasoning
someone like tertullian would blow your mind

>>11954511
nigga you're wasting your time with these literalists. obviously there is no such thing as a literal day of judgement for the purpose of which the consciousness of each soul will be re-activated. It's an admirable poetic attempt at portraying the idea of looking at the world from the standpoint of eternity (and that standpoint exists, it's real, though it isn't a place or a time, it is was and will be).
you're closer to god right now than they are, don't give that up for a feeling of belonging.

>>11954638
Well this is why I was so interested with peterson at first, as it seemed he had a similar view, that it didn't have to be literal and the bible was symbolically useful.
But it does feel empty and insufficient, and I don't think that the snake in the garden being symbolic of human nastiness is all there is to it. There is probably way more to it than a psychologist like Jung could muster up, even if he was a smart guy.
And please don't shit on the "literalists" they've been super helpful and welcoming to me, they are good guys.

>>11954455
I'm sorry I don't quite understand, there are obviously many others who chose Orthodoxy over Catholicism?
My initial contact with Orthodoxy was as I said through Dostoevsky, and my delving into it was due mostly to my adoration of Dostoevsky. However I became equally enamored with all of the early Church Fathers who had been hidden from me all my life. I almost could not believe the strength, the beauty, and the depth of their theology compared to the trite and totally materialistic version that is considered "christianity" today, especially in America. That these people had existed all along and yet all the Christianity I had previously encountered was totally silent about them astounded me. I then further identified with the Byzantine vein of Theology and committed myself to that.
Orthodoxy is a Home in a way nothing else could be.

>>11954488
>what you find particularly bad about Peterson's analysis (and by extension Jung as I think it's all him).
Yes Jung mangles things too. They inevitably reduce everything to their own psychological models. Pretty much every sphere of literature that Jung has interpreted has told him to fuck off. From Christianity to Hermeticism to Buddhism to just plain poetry. There's a reason why academics don't take depth psychology seriously.
>or that the snake in the garden represents man's fear and distrust of the unknown and his aversion to betrayal and lies
See, this right here is a perfect example. All of the earliest hermeneutical exposés on this (pre-christian rabbinical teachings) will state that the snake represents the Principle of Pleasure. This is something that is actually on the first few pages of Philo's exegesis on Genesis (which, granted, is just one of many and not at all definitive). Peterson is like a deaf man who thinks the sheet music for Beethoven's ninth is a novel in Morse code and tries to translate it accordingly.

>>11954623
Yeah I think this is what I'm doing. Also why I was so convinced by peterson when he talked about the imagery of the snake being about us confronting our own human wickedness. It seems like it treats these stories like forensic material to be chopped up. I will read some turtullian if you think it'll help, thanks anon.

>>11954664
Well, I don't disagree. I think his personal beliefs may well be 'genuine' but the way he tries to communicate the idea of the relation between man and the divine lacks something. Personally I think, it has a lot to do with his meme pragmatism, it's just a stupid way to define truth, it isn't true in the way the eternal, infinite, all-encompassing force that's present in everything that is is true, metaphorical truth is in some fundamental way second-rate.

That in line with your thoughts?

>>11949141
>read Dosto
>come away from it with a renewed respect for the weakness of man
>view the religious with renewed scorn seeing them less so as irrational and more so desperate and self-deluding
>the only thing lowlier than those who never aspire to be Napoleons are those who do and capitulate before to and before themselves
lolOrthodoxy

>>11954681
just stay open minded
dont limit yourself to seeing christianity as simply forensic-tier symbolist as you said

also tertullian is perhaps a little on his own hand, if you want to get a full picture theres a shitton of different literature available

>read Dosto once
>come away from it with a renewed respect for the weakness of man
>view the religious with renewed scorn seeing them less so as irrational and more so desperate and self-deluding
>the only thing lowlier than those who never aspire to be Napoleons are those who do and capitulate to and before themselves
lolOrthodoxy
lolProselytes
lolUntermensch

>>11954673
growing up around orthodox in ex-yu ive always seen orthodoxy as a huge meme

>>11954673
>deaf man with sheet music
Wow thats kinda what I was afraid of when I was listening to him and I had my suspicions that was the case.

>servant represents the principle of pleasure
So it isn't necessarily bad to interpret these passages as imagery? It's just Jung and peterson are doing it from a stupid perspective? What I have read of Kierkegaard, I would have thought any "intellectualizing" the story would be abandoning faith and making the puzzle piece fit where it shouldn't.
But presumably it's okay if you don't add your own bias as a psychologist?
Btw anon this is a huge help, thanks for your generosity with your time.

>>11949210
we need your feet, Mary

just a small question - have any of you considered going to the tridentine mass before you started larping orthodoxy

>>11954743
leave her alone man, she's too pure for your shenanigans

>>11949141
Based

>>11954702
I think so, yes.
He is definitely genuine, you can hear it in his voice.
He is definitely missing the mark though, as it's too convenient.
If by his meme understanding, you mean the way he defines truth is " snake is metaphor for deceipt" then yes it seems it is insufficient.
Afterall, that metaphorical truth is rooted in humans relations to reptiles, so it hardly speaks to how universal it is, yes.
What would you say is a more universal understanding of truth? (Vague I know but I think Peterson's isn't very 3D).

>>11952068
Shut up, retard.

>>11954731
Yes I'm sure the distance does play a role. I don't blindly idolize the modern manifestation of it, but if you had grown up around American protestants, you would think that Orthodoxy was the library of Alexandria.

>>11954737
>So it isn't necessarily bad to interpret these passages as imagery?
They are a highly intricate method of expressing the most intricate thoughts ever conceived by humanity. You have to remember the historical context of it. What was the earliest form of literature by which everything was conveyed? Poetry. Everything was conveyed poetically. Should poetry be taken literally? No. If you read a line of poetry that says "she was rose in the morning light" would you get upset and throw the book down, saying "that's ridiculous, people can't turn into roses"? Obviously not. But sadly people seem incapable of applying the same level of insight to anything religious or metaphysical.
And think of how difficult it is to interpret a single poem by say, Wallace Stevens; to understand all that he is performing and communicating through the verses. Now imagine how much more difficult something like the Bible which is one of the most complex matrices of literature that humanity has ever compiled in its entire history. It is practically hopeless. You have to be an expert who has devoted their entire life (and read the biographies of the early Fathers, that is exactly what they did) on this to even begin to scratch at it. Luckily, you can read what some of these experts have garnered from it, and a great source of this are the Church Fathers. John Chrysostom is particularly good.

>>11954593
>I literally said I read Kierkegaard elsewhere in this thread.
>>low effort reading by anon becomes even lower effort
Sloth

>>11949154
Lit could in theory be a good board; instead it seems to be infested with edgelord 19 year olds who just read Nietzsche for the first time and believe they have transcended truth. One step away from becoming Eliot Rogers.

>>11954820
>but if you had grown up around American protestants, you would think that Orthodoxy was the library of Alexandria
absolutely true
however seeing what orthodoxy is like made me ridicule it, orthodox usually being poor and stupid didnt help the impression either
dont take me wrong, i dont see modern catholicism in a good light either


some things orthodox pull off:
there is no authority, every religious head does what he wants
they practice divorce
most commonly orthodox officials were selected by the state (including the communist party when it was in power)
its de facto nationalistic and tribalistic although it shouldnt be by its own rules

>>11949141
>he doesn't side with Ivan
What a retard

>>11954822
Yes I know, these edgelord really don't put the effort in even for a good evening of trolling.
Sad.

>>11951403
Being open to experiences that don't fall into a narrow, materialist view of the world isn't stupidity, it's intellectual modesty. I'm willing to wager your thinking is more dogmatic than you care to admit.

>>11954874
>Everyone that calls me a lazy YouTube Christian LARP is an edgelord

>>11954718
Yes I think I will. I had someone on pol recently tell me that peterson and Jung were like Gnostics at their core. They want to understand Christianity like it's a method of therapy to explore and train in. They have no faith, in the true meaning of the term. I will read wider so I don't fall into the same trap. Cheers anon.

>>11949154
OP here

This thread is just a harmless joke about Dostoevsky readers, not Dost himself. Don't worry

>>11954903
>I had someone on pol recently tell me that peterson and Jung were like Gnostics at their core.
thats true for almost everyone today and it started with protestant reformation,
actual, practical christians, before mindfuckery that happend during the 60s were much more hardcore in their beliefs than what we know today

>Cheers anon
cheers

>>11954892
Did I say that? I don't believe I did. No I'm sure I didn't in fact.
I believe I called out people who said I need to get my act straight by not asking for advice and figuring it out on my own.
Then they say do get help, from Kierkegaard.
Then I need to be the one to help them by reading back my previous post.
The irony of these people's loves.

>>11954923
>protestant reformation
Yes from what I know of church history that makes a lot of sense. Shits so confusing it's hard to know where to turn. Good to share with gracious anons from time to time though. God bless you man.

>>11954956
>>11954956
i actually used to go to pol before but at one point as i went forward in reading, education and such it annoyed me more and more and i just stopped

dunno about the orthodox, but catholic view is even today that the eucharist is very literal
catholicism overall used to stand ground on all such issues until in second vatican they dropped their edge to fit in

>>11954820
Hmm yeah I understand I think. So it's not that a modern "intellectual" is doing something wrong or naive when he reads into the meaning of a passage. He is just doing it from a psychologist perspective, which is shallow and only has one facet to it?
Like me saying Browning's "love is like a red red rose" is all about how thorny relationships can get, and real poetry experts say it is that plus the passion of the red petals and the budding of romance etc.
Us there maybe a more accessible modern text you can recommend for understanding early fathers and the like? I got so many recommendations in this thread for tertullion and chrysostum etc that maybe a solid book will help me out.
Thanks again kind anon

>>11954993
Yeah they get irritating from time to time over there.
It's a shame what happened to the catholic church I think, the new pope is a fucking sham. Stay strong anon.

>>11955010
Here is the entirety of Tertullian's work http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/tertullian.html (the whole website is fantastic). He was a fanatic though, so not your typical Church Father. (Still good nonetheless.)
Chrysostom's is going to be more spread around, unfortunately. I know that pic related (which is a pretty shoddy translation, but has stellar explanatory notes) uses Chrysostom as a source often.

>>11955026
everything the new pope does is merely logical conclusion of churches modern teachings, blaming him is perhaps right in a way, but its misguided
i personally find jp2 and paul6 to be much worse

>>11951435
Штф

>>11954476
The Catholic Church has power, and just like political, educational, and sporting institutions there is sexual abuse by people in those positions of power.
It isn't an exscuse, and the Church has handled the issue about as poorly as you can, but the issue is blown out of proportion in the media, especially in the US.
Catholicism is the most socially acceptable punching-bag in the western world.

>>11955062
Oh sure, I agree he is just one more roll of the snowball as it gathers speed. Having said that I think the last guy wasn't nearly as liberal iirc. I think he is speeding stuff up for sure.

>>11955050
Ah great stuff. If I tuck into the orthodox study bible I'll get some of the early church father's too? Sweet.
Anyway I'm gonna leave you now anon, you've been a huge help to me and I'm really glad for your insight. God be with you.

>>11955161
>the last guy wasn't nearly as liberal iirc
then you don't know what he was really like and what he taught
you look at it like the average joe does and how he is generally portraid in the media, however catholic theology is something very complex and relatively obscure

>>11955160
Didn't the actual research show that pedophile priests make up only about 4% of the total priest population?

The main reason the problem got out of hand is because the pedos were moved around and their actions were covered up. That's the real problem; the coverup was almost worse than the crimes.

>>11955062
>tfw hopefully in ten or twenty years all the Vatican 2 types will be dead and the Church will begin to go back to normal

This shit has been like the Arian Crisis, it's infected everything and we won't be done with it for a while yet.

>>11954807
>What would you say is a more universal understanding of truth? (Vague I know but I think Peterson's isn't very 3D).
I don't think I can make a coherent philosophical argument for the position I have on this, especially since it's getting pretty late where I live, but I guess I'll give it a shot anyway.
The fundamental problem of truth is the problem of objectivity. How do you determine whether something is true? When Peterson opens up the dichotomy between scientific truth and pragmatic/metaphorical truth, he wants to make the latter plausible in light of the existence of the former, and his argument for this is that "practically speaking", we each have different information with which we need to work to orient ourselves in the world, and "metaphorically speaking" our empirical struggles can be conceptualized as archetypal ones, and all of this is 'backed up' by all kinds of scientific 'facts' we function neurochemically, based on our evolutionary history. In this way moral truth is tied to scientific truth.
The problem with this explanation is that it falls short of what's really going on. Any metric that exists for anything is in some respects based on approximations, uncertainty, there is always the possibility of a hidden variable x, etc. - truth is ultimately impossible to nail down, even if we "know" that it exists somewhere, somehow. Pragmatics and metaphors, evolutionary history and archetypes are just fingers pointing at the moon, and that moon is something that can't be finally defined. The correct way of looking at truth is the Daoist way. Knowledge of the eternal is not the eternal itself.

Each person has their own relationship to truth that they need to develop in a way that is unique to them, and so, even though there is only one truth, The way toward god is different for each of us, the same only in that we each start by "entering the forest at the point that is darkest to us". Our relationship to the divine is primarily an individual one rather than a collective one. The different 'finite' points only converge in infinity, though they get closer and closer to each other over time. This is true for all endeavours, including science: There will never be a unified theory of everything, the meaning of any discovery is contextual, continually shifting.
We come closer to the divine by pursuing truth, by not being afraid of questioning ourselves as well as each others definite beliefs. One of the genius central themes of Christianity is that, though we may disagree on all kinds of things, we are still able to love each other because we know that we serve the same and the one true god, but that god is not the image we have of him, though there is something of him in it, but something existing at the horizon.

If you want to read someone smarter than me write about this, I can recommend Novalis' poetry - and he also wrote a longer essay on the fate of the Christian tradition in Europe that's pretty interesting.

>>11955233
honestly the worst are conservatives who refuse to accept logical conclusion of modernist foundations they accept as their faith and slow the whole collapse down

years ago you couldnt even go to a tridentine mass let alone get confirmed or confessed by sspx without morons crucifying you
#mypope

>>11955227
If not less, and the % is on par with Protestant churches.
The Church as an institution is divine, but it is still stewarded by humans with all our original sins. The vices, hypocrisy, lust, sloth, avarice, etc.

You're right about the coverup issue though, I didn't emphasize that enough in my post

>>11955227
4% is way overblown
something like 1% of pedophilia cases get actually proven

>>11955180
Ah maybe I am missing how bad he was as I'm not a Catholic and don't keep a close eye on the church. Or I didn't when Benedict XVI was in as ibwas a younger man then. Well here's hoping the next pope will have had enough of his rubbish at least.

Reminder that Eastern Orthodoxy is non-trinitarian, polytheistic and practices eastern pagan yoga techniques.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence%E2%80%93energies_distinction

>>11955311
you may not know this, but in his youth benedict was a big liberal voice in the Church
only when he got older he grew more "conservative"

>>11955282
>tfw the meme i made is being posted by people
lmao

>>11955253
Wow thats a lot to think on anon, I appreciate it. Yeah I am familiar with the daoist teaching and the moon metaphor. I will certainly ponder on this again soon. Godspeed anon and enjoy the rest of your night.

>>11955253
>Each person has their own relationship to truth that they need to develop in a way that is unique to them, and so, even though there is only one truth,
Very nicely put. We're all looking at the same mountain, but from different places, so we'll naturally disagree on the shape of its silhouette

>>11955260
As a good Catholic I'm still iffy on the SSPX because they're of iffy status within the Church. Their communion with Rome is still a matter of debate.

Fortunately I have an FSSP church very close to where I live, so I'm able to get the Old Rite while remaining in good standing with the Church.

>>11955519
im the kind of guy who would support them whether recognized or not,

however if you are afraid, why would pope allow them openly to serve mass and the sacraments if thats wrong?
also sspx as a group has no standing with the Church - all of them are legit priests and bishops
also sspx makes a good case against fssp, i used to be as scared as you are but they convinced me with their arguments

good wholesome thread desu

>>11953369
how do i stop the anger anon

>>11954312
God, I love Alyosha so much. Thanks for this post, anon.

>>11954948
Do you make special effort to sound this much burger? You're just too weak to become anything, especially a Christian.
Your whole approach is disgusting and I feel ashamed you make me feel this way, but that's what it is.

>>11955010
Pathetic

>>11949154
I really didn't mean to start that. I just find it funny to read him as if he's talking about robots. Trek fans anyone?

>>11949189
so religion is for weak people, the fedora atheists were right once again.

>>11949210
I read "Selected Writings from the Philokalia on the Prayer of the Heart"and now Im a mystic, so I think its good.

>>11949141
>hurr durr someone who lived in the 19th century loved Jesus and didn't like communism was a conservative

Fuck off

>>11957294
Why? Cos I want something accessible and modern to read? Sorry anon, didn't realise you read your bible in the original Greek and your Dosto in the original Russian.

>>11957282
>burger
Not even remotely son
>too weak and pathetic to be christian
Literally a religion for the weak, for beggars, for the lowly, and the diseased

K E K

>>11957728
And now, the true colours are revealed.

>>11957742
How so, I'm not a burger and it's a religion explicitly for the weak and the poor.

>>11957718
Because you act like a little work begging for perspective

>>11958080
Worm
Fuck it I'm done phone posting. Have fun fagging up Christianity

>>11958080
>>11958089
Kek
>asking people to solve your problems for you, pathetic
>oh Jesus, please save my immortal soul for me
Rapturous keks anon thank you for this gift

>>11949210
Nice hands, kinda jelly. My nails always look like I simply haven't cut them in weeks as soon as I try to grow them. Such is the like of a Mamuschka.

>>11958189
If you're going to troll try not saying KEK

>>11951403
absolute NPC post

>>11958646
Not a troll, I'm serious. The irony of the petty anon I seem to be plagued with is laughable.

>Reads Dostoevsky over the course of a lifetime

>>11949288
Any book in particular?