/lit/ - Literature

>>11912735
>be NPC
>become frenzied at post
>refute with meme-tiered response
>circuit normalized [A/x=11111111---------] NORMAL FUNCTIONING RESUMED

Prove otherwise. Pro tip: you can't

feels good being a STEMgrad. at least I'm making meaningful contributions to society

>>11912756
>>11912752

>>11912756
The way matter is organized isn't material itself.

>>11912756
>meaningful contributions to society
Spooky

>>11912756
Infinite regress is impossible

Since when does being a materialist require that you reject philosophy?

And how can anyone even intelligently deny materialism? The alternative is to either believe in a supernatural deity or believe that human thought is so fucking spectacularly incredible that it bends the universe to its will.

>>11912772
>The alternative is to either believe in a supernatural deity or believe that human thought is so fucking spectacularly incredible that it bends the universe to its will.

>there are only two ways to think about a problem that's been around for thousands of years

No.

>>11912772
If every thought and emotion is just chemicals and neurons firing off what good is trying to study it beyond the observable?

>>11912756
"prove an opinion"

a STEMgrad ought to have a better grasp of logic, I don't think you are one

>>11912761
t. parasite who can't into science

how many computers has poetry invented? how many cures for diseases did Homer discover?

lmao, we'll be dragging you humanities fags into the technological improved future whether you like it or not. but hopefully most of you die off when you realize just how nonessential your """occupations""" are>>11912761

>>11912772
>The alternative is to either believe in a supernatural deity or believe that human thought is so fucking spectacularly incredible that it bends the universe to its will.
lol no

>>11912788
>how many computers has poetry invented? how many cures for diseases did Homer discover?

What's your model number?

>>11912772
See, this is the problem. Only somebody who has given absolutely no thought at all to the issue would ever think
>The alternative is to either believe in a supernatural deity or believe that human thought is so fucking spectacularly incredible that it bends the universe to its will.
I'm so fucking sick of idiots thinking everyone else has to be as stupid as they are.

>>11912788
>we'll drive you to extinction whether you like it or not

>>11912788
yikes

>>11912779
>>11912791
Please explain what parts of existence you think are not 'material'.

If you don't have an answer to that question, you are, by definition, a materialist.

>>11912781
Refining reason and logic is a way to more accurately observe these processes. This is why theoretical science and philosophy haven't been completely replaced by experimental science, applied science, and engineering.

>>11912792
>>11912801
>>11912804
lel keep it up

it's hilarious that you morons think writing about flowers is anywhere close to the same accomplishment as computational neuroscience

>>11912806
>Please explain what parts of existence you think are not 'material'.

Consciousness. Experientiality

>>11912799
If you don't believe in a God and don't believe that human thought transcends reality, then what fucking part of reality could POSSIBLY be 'non-material'?

You know what matter even is, right? Like, I'm not talking to a COMPLETE retard, certainly?

>>11912788
>im surely going to be a future technocrat because im a stemfag.
sehr gespenstisch

>>11912808
it's amazing you think poetry and neuroscience are in any way comparable.

>>11912811
>you're a complete retard if you don't subscribe to my facile dichotomies

thought is non-physical and immanent to reality. git gus

>>11912810
Consciousness and experientiality are phenomena that occur due to brain synapses and neural connections. They have a fundamental material basis.

>>11912828
>thought is non-physical
Only if you use such an insanely narrow definition of 'physical' that things like gravity and magnetism are also non-physical.

>>11912811
>Like, I'm not talking to a COMPLETE retard, certainly?
No, but it looks like I am. I can guarantee you that you don't have a clue what any of those terms mean.

>>11912831
They are not themselves material or else you wouldn't even have to assert that they are. Experientiality is irreducible to physical description. This is a simple fact, otherwise please try to come up with a hypothetical, strictly physical account of red-ness with no explanatory gaps

>>11912787
Honestly, the level of critical thinking capability of most stem grads is pretty embarrassing. I've met people who have made phenomenal contributions to their scientific fields who cannot handle a basic dialectic if it isn't easily quantifiable.

materialism is ironically one of the easiest philosophies to refute

Matter boils down to indeterminate trends of localization within clouds of probability. materialism depends on a notion of fundamental, indivisible, and quantifiable physical substance. Such a thing doesn't exist. nor would it make sense to. Kant put it best - Space, Time, and the arising notions of physicality are just the form of human perception. The reason why the natural sciences work is because there can be objectivity and order in the world of perception, it just doesn't tell you anything about the nature of the reality lying beyond or under our experience.

Materialism is one of the most primitive philosophies of metaphysics there are. Is metaphysics a legitimate enterprise at all? That's a philosophical debate. But it's no more a "waste of time" than any other kind of learning, the only difference is that learning philosophy makes you better at understanding literally everything.

>>11912837
Says the guy who wants to collapse subjectivity into matter and keep calling it "matter". You don't know your ass from your elbow.

>>11912840
Except I do and anyone who rejects materialism is a bumbling retard.

The brain is a material organ and therefore all processes that have a basis in the brain (such as thought and consciousness) are also material. Your pre-19th century superstition has been proven wrong, get the fuck over it.

>>11912851
>what matter does is itself material

Digestion isn't another object alongside a stomach you fucking mook

>>11912845
The only reason I have to assert that they are material is because you're too retarded to understand that things you can't touche or feel can still be physical.
>strictly physical account of red-ness with no explanatory gaps
Are you fucking serious? Are you asking me to prove the electromagnetic spectrum and the anatomy of the eye?

>>11912859
>because you're too retarded to understand that things you can't touche or feel can still be physical.

>Are you fucking serious? Are you asking me to prove the electromagnetic spectrum and the anatomy of the eye?

Holy shit you are one dumb nigger retard

>>11912849
"Subjectivity" is not trasncedent and only people who are scientifically illiterate could possibly think it is.

A subject is still made of physical matter and interacts with other physical matter.
>>11912857
No, but digestion is OBVIOUSLY a physical process and therefore material. Thank you for proving my fucking point, jesus christ.
>>11912869
If you seriously think "red" is something subjective that has no basis in material reality, you, my friend, are the dumb nigger retard.

>>11912872
No, matter is substance, digestion is a process within substance, as is consciousness. Processes are not material, and to say they are is to cling to a meaningless notion of the physical.

If you posit mindedness in matter, then it is matter that is alive (and not the soul as the principle of locomotion, or what have you) and you've explained nothing.

>>11912872
This board is too up it's own ass about the Greeks and Christianity to listen to you

>>11912872
>>11912892
Samefag

>>11912872
you're not providing an argument you're just reiterating your beliefs

>>11912872
The reality is in itself useless without the volitional existence that is born of the passions ... no one can prove to you rationally that the sensible world exists a bitch.
For things like the difference between red and green, or long and short to exist as concepts, you have to see a structure disconnected from the sensitive reality to capture it.
scientism and positivism are for faggots incapable of capturing the intuitive essence of reality

>>11912882
This is what happens when you read nothing but Greek philosophy and don't even understand basic empirical classification.

Processes ARE physical you fucking goon, and no one posits that matter is minded; they posit that MINDS are MATTER. It's two completely different statements, the former of which is retarded and the latter of which is fucking obvious to anyone who is literate and has an IQ above 70.

>38 replies
>12 posters
OP you knew this was exactly what was going to happen, you fucking maniac

>>11912897
See >>11912901

>>11912900
Can you please use plain English instead of your autistic jargon, thank you

ITT: One guy who's never read a single philosophical work and wouldn't even be able to understand the basic concepts within them if he had and 3 or 4 guys willing to waste their time on someone that's not even going to understand what they type.

>>11912909
Other way around, sorry

>>11912901
And this is what happens when you still don't understand the question here is explaining subjectivity qua subjectivity, which the claim "minds are matter" does nothing but displace onto its medium.

Act isn't substance you fucking retard

>>11912911
kek
>please be as dumb as I am, thank you
go back >>>/r/eddit

>>11912913
I've read plenty of philosophy. On the other hand, I bet NONE of you smug fuckers could tell me anything more than the most basic facts about physics, chemistry, or biology.

Materialism is philosophically correct.

>>11912924
Anyone who uses this sentence:

>The reality is in itself useless without the volitional existence that is born of the passions

is more interested in masturbating their own thoughts than actually communicating with another human being.

>>11912772
Why should I care about society?

>>11912926
>I've read plenty of philosophy!
*Quickly tabs out of Wikipedia*

>>11912911
His post was clear as day, you're a brainlet

>>11912909
ok
>>11912901
>Processes ARE physical you fucking goon
repeating yourself again and acting like you're making a point

>no one posits that matter is minded
plenty do, but I can see that you meant that it's posited by no one that you agree with

although I doubt you've been exposed to very much

> they posit that MINDS are MATTER
Leibniz' Windmill Analogy
Hard Problem of Consciousness

Reducing mind to matter is deeply problematic and that's kinda sorta the whole fucking issue that's been examined all this time you know

>the former of which is retarded and the latter of which is fucking obvious to anyone who is literate and has an IQ above 70.
you fucking suck at debate

>>11912926
Lol why are you lording over your vast scientific knowledge over us wheb mainstream physics doesn't even think in terms of substances anymore, but processes and fields?

You're a pseud dude.

>>11912936
>you have to see a structure disconnected from the sensitive reality to capture it
These are not precise terms. This is jargon.

What does he mean by "sensitive reality"? Reality that can be sensed, or reality as viewed through the senses? Two completely different meanings that he doesn't even attempt to make clear.

>>11912926
>I've read plenty of philosophy
Nobody who has actually read a lot of philosophy would ever say this.
>On the other hand, I bet NONE of you smug fuckers could tell me anything more than the most basic facts about physics, chemistry, or biology.
Oh, it's another
>I was an incel who spent his high school days getting shoved into a locker but I compensate for this by thinking I've got a big brain and girls will totally want to suck my dick once they see me verbally dismantle anyone who doesn't subscribe to my severely stunted beliefs that don't go beyond my own prejudices and puerile resentment
episode.

>>11912926
sure I can

>>11912847
I'd love to talk about physics or biology with you

>>11912948
>I need everything to be made clearrrrrrr

I'm convinced you people don't know how to think or process the world.

>>11912808
>"writing about flowers"
>"neuroscience"
oh i see these stemfags are completely incapable of understanding things holistically thus attributing the meaning of a poem to the "flower" the same way these retards think firing neurons will provide the answer to consciousness.

>>11912926
How are mitochondrial genetic disorders inherited?

Guys please don't take the bait of this fake stemfag, we're not retarded I promise.

>>11912926
>physics
Speed=distance/time
Nothing is faster than the speed of light and there never will be.

>chemistry
Every material can be reduced to an indivisible form called an element. Elements compose everything

>biology
All biomass contains lipids, carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids

>>11912958
Communication, believe it or not, requires clarity and precision. Some who is not willing to be clear and precise with their terms is not interested in communication, they are interested solely in their own masturbation.

As everyone else who is responding to me in this thread has proved. No one is actually trying to communicate with me, they just start spouting literally semantically meaningless bullshit like "Matter is not of the mind but is seen in the conditions of the reality that has juxtaposed it against sensitivity".

>>11912989
Just read fucking Bergson faggot.
It can be more clear?

>>11912971
Several ways, dipshit.

spamming stemfag, you are lik baby. wauch this.
>The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation [which accounts for it] that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but [consists in the fact] that the relation relates itself to its own self.

>>11912955
>you
meaning >>11912926

I'm >>11912847

Studying philosophy I find that almost everyone in the department takes interest in physics, and other potentially pertinent STEM topics to a lesser extent. I find it bewildering that people expect philosophers to be threatened by this material - if it offers anything logically compelling or that can broaden the understanding in any way then it's gold.

>>11912788
Seriously some STEM undergrads are just plain retarded. And im on STEM

>>11913002
Not that anon nor do I know the answer to that question but you didn't provide any answer at all. 'Several ways' such as what?

>>11912989
You are trying to be a Wittgenstein straw-man to refute your own self or something?

>>11913018
a lot of idiots unable to process the gnoseological or ontological reality of things because “muh, science and deep shit”

>>11913008
Honestly all you need to say to something like this is "I disagree"

>>11913055
It makes perfect sense, god fuck you're all such pseuds

>>11912735
Everything being material doesn't mean you instantly know how everything is. Actually, materialism being the truth means you need philosophy to actually explore it. Whereas, non-materialism is usually hand-wave bullshit that doesn't explore or explain anything. It chalks it up to something external or unknown and sits content with the 'truth'.

>>11912781
Because philosophy encompasses problems that can't be boiled down to a binary choice between "materialism" and "non-materialism", whatever those mean.

>>11913064
If you think that makes sense, you're the fucking pseud. Jesus christ philosophers are like those brainless hordes who stare at a painting of a red dot in a museum and applaud the genius behind it.

>>11913002

Inherited dumbass

>>11913099
You want me to break it down line-by-line for brainlets? How fucking dumb are you gonna feel?

>>11913084
Materialism isn't scientism faggots, u can caught the essence of reality only trough intuition, the rest is only a frozen (or mechanistic) view of the world

>>11913099
Is math a material object? Can you show me two in real life (not just two of something).

>>11913109
The point is it's a retarded claim, sure everything might be material. But given how little we know saying that is fucking stupid.

>>11913110
Ulala Descartes

>>11912756
>fell for the ‘take STEM to help society’ marketing
Literal NPC, I bet you’ve clicked on one of those “FREE iPAD GIVEAWAY” scams before too.

>>11913108
No, you don't have to break it down. I don't care.
I can concede that philosophical theories can sound elegant and appealing. They, if true, would be able to explain many things.
Problem is, YOU CAN'T FUCKING TELL IF THEY'RE TRUE OR NOT. Talking about these unobservable concepts like God, free will, morality, nature of reality is pointless because there are LITERALLY INFINITELY many opinions that you can have about them, and nobody can disprove your opinion.
Plato's Theory of Forms, hedonism, monads, utiliarianism, determinism, categorical imperatives, whatever theory of consciousness the latest crockpot has churned out.... you literally cannot disprove or prove any of these. Philosophers will argue forever, and never make progress.
I might be getting baited, but philosophers will never fail to make my blood boil with how important they think they are. They will literally hijack achievements from other fields (quantum mechanics, mathematical logic, psychology) and claim them as their own as evidence of their own self-importance.
tldr Kill yourself.

>>11913117
Movement is the essence of reality... entropy and basic relativistic notion of time bitch

>>11913099
>Jesus christ philosophers
not all christians man not all

>>11913137
I didn't know npc dialogue could get this extensive

>>11913099
> red dot
explain the country of japan, roboto

>>11912847

>>11912847
HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU LEARN ABOUT THIS "TRUE REALITY" IF IT EXISTS OUTSIDE OF HUMAN PERCEPTION REEEEEEEEE

>>11913099
You're projecting your magapede tier anti-intellectualism anon.

>>11913137
this NPC is overheating

It took me forever to realize when people are talking about materialism they're referring to the images covering everything. Holy shit.

>>11913099
Here, the Cliffnotes version:

>The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self,

The self is recursive: its object is, ultimately, itself.

>or it is that in the relation [which accounts for it]

Or, to put it better, in the process that the self is, the self is more properly...

>that the relation relates itself to its own self; the self is not the relation but [consists in the fact] that the relation relates itself to its own self.

... this process of self-relation being (also) related to itself. So, the Self isn't some static process of relation between itself and itself, x and x^2, but also this process being related to itself AS the process of relation that it is

Example: I experience something as it is related to my self in such-and-such mood, but I can also relate myself to the way this relation occurred, ie I can observe the way I process my experience of the world and modify it.

>>11913137
>I might be getting baited
masterful

>>11913148
>>11913169
>>11913174
>g-good thing i have my memes to hide my lack of argument
kek. i thought how to argue was the one thing your shitty major taught you.

>>11913137
I think many people on this board can't agree with the fact that reality and consciousness are as simple and elegant systems as materialism makes them to be. They are seeking complexity rather than truth, and would rather entertain complex ideas than reduce their thinking space to adapt to truth.

In this century, neurology will probably demonstrate that there is no such thing as libertarian free will, and other things that will be another nail in the coffins of old ideas like dualism or divinity.

>>11913137
you say that they are never going to advance, you are fucking me, you realize that literally all sciences are born of cutting segments of philosophy to apprehend reality in its different parts, and literally without philosophy (which studies the general part of reality ), these efforts would be futile, right?
Do not fuck with me, even Wittgenstein term rectifying this retarded positivism

>>11913166
God internally testifies to us about it

>>11913137
See your problem was thinking you're supposed to get "argued" (read: programmed) into "believing" these things like a good little wind-up NPC instead of intuitively grasping what it is that, say, Plato is wrestling with in his thought and where he's coming from with his notion of Forms and go from there. I bet you think God can only be proven argumentatively, too. You're a pseud.

>>11913183
*Watches Sam Harris interview*

>>11913183
Haha please, the nature of consciousness as witnessing was nailed 3000 years ago and is as simple a definition of subjectivity as you'll ever find. It's you who need to believe Truth is still waiting in the wings - that it is temporal and just over the next horizon of scientific discovery - because the STEM degree industry depends on you to believe it

>>11913182
Feels good to return some of the laughter. Cheers

>>11913166
an apriorical judgement of THE reality came from a mystical intuition (like every post-Kant philosopher do before, like Hegel, Shopenhauer, Schelling, Fichte, Bergson...)

>>11913138
>Movement is the essence of reality... entropy and basic relativistic notion of time bitch
What is time?

>>11913137
based

I love how humanities niggers give so much shit to that STEMfag pretending they aren't so far up their ass about their own philosophy. Imagine spending your whole life reading existentialist/continental philosophy, taking it to heart and calling everyone NPCs because they aren't deep enough to comprehend the immaterial. Meanwhile these same people absolutely cannot wait to get their quantum computers from those nasty materials just to shitpost about how bad materialism is. What a laughable state of affairs.

>>11913233
>Meanwhile these same people absolutely cannot wait to get their quantum computers from those nasty materials just to shitpost about how bad materialism is.

Speak for yourself.

>>11913184
dude scientists do not care about philosophy (inb4 that meme physicists image). if philosophers didn't exist, science would advance just fine. science is fueled by internal curiosity, not by what philosophers find interesting. there is no correlation between the birth of a new field of science and increase philosophical volume in a related field.
>>11913197
"intuively grasping" is such a dumb way of looking at the world seeing as our intuitions can be wrong. plato's forms ain't shit.

>>11913233

>>11912735
>I know that there is a supernatural element to life because I thought about it real hard

>>11913245
>"intuively grasping" is such a dumb way of looking at the world seeing as our intuitions can be wrong

What a child afraid of the depths of his own mind can only say. Suit yourself

>>11913245
>"intuively grasping" is such a dumb way of looking at the world seeing as our intuitions can be wrong
You think its optional, but that's how we really live. Same reason you believe whatever reductive materialism you embrace is, not because so-and-so reputable scientist did, but because the image of the theory squares in your mind, so you trust it, because it feels like truth. This cannot be avoided. Say what you like, but humans can only think in a human way. No attempt to get around that will work.

>>11913183
libertarian free will has been debunked long time ago. This century has already shown however that hard determinism isn't true either.

>>11913247
kek

>>11912735
discovering new music, getting drunk and buying and owning nice things are the only things I get pleasure from in life.
recommend me a philosophical text for this feel

>>11913262
People can still talk of a dualistic ghost in the machine and be taken seriously in some places.

The noumenal supervenes on the physical, and will exists as a hard-indeterminist tendency. You're all faggots--the STEMfag for trying to agglomerate all philosophy into a single category, and the "philosophers" for falling into the continental trap of trying to totalize all phenomena.

>>11913269
death

Why are we here? Where do we come from? Traditionally, these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. Scientists have become the bearers of the torch of discovery in our quest for knowledge.

― Stephen Hawking, The Grand Design

Just going to toss in this little appeal to authority.

>>11913298
>y-yea well here this pic will blow you the fuck out :^)
there we go, that meme picture again...

>>11913317
>reality is a meme when it threatens me
your mother failed humanity the day she decided not to stop by at that abortion clinic

>>11912735
Is the list of ingrediants on the back of the box all that there is? If you abstract the components and display them, have you really understood the thing itself better? Will it make an apple taste better if you were able to list the chemical components that derive it's flavor? Or is it just an egotistical end all, that all is material, just like all is derived from god, to close off thinking where your thinking has reached the end of its capabilities? To act as though materialism is all there is, and parade it around with pride as though you were in the know, that this alone is truth, and then have your family die and feel sadness, or have a kiss and feel love etc etc and then act like it was all just materialism, and then claim you understand life? To the contrary, you've understood nothing, are ignorant, and worst, are proud of it. Eat shit anon.

>the defenders of STEM in this thread all providing well thought out arguments nobody can touch.
>philosophags panicking and posting memes
the state of this board

>>11913298
This isn't that bad. Only Krauss's quote is stupidly offensive. Nye's is not bad at all.

>>11913328
>the defenders of STEM in this thread all providing well thought out arguments nobody can touch
where

>>11913323
>20th century scientists we're actually studying kantian philosophy they are on our side bruh

>>11913298
Color was a mistake

>>11912787
Not that guy, but
>prove an opinion
I've never read anything more stupid in my life. It's not a mere opinion whether or not the statement
>materialism is the truth, there is nothing more than the physical and philosophy is a waste of time
is true or not.

>>11913361
Materialism isn't axiomatic you fucking retard

>>11912903
>People having a debate in a thread meant to inspire debate
Wow what a shock

>>11913328
>defenders of STEM
Mathematics is certainly a branch of ideas that should be explored to a sufficient degree, I’m certain the ideas derived from Game Theory and Analytic philosophy attest to that, it’s just asinine to support everything scientific. I find some of the proponents of biological determinism to be hinging far too much on unverifiable postulations for example.

You need to realize there are parallels between algebra and geometry, Game Theory and economics, astronomy and optics, everything is connected and it is the philosophy that connects them

>>11913373
>and it is the philosophy that connects them
no it isn't

>>11912978
>I bet NONE of you smug fuckers could tell me anything more than the most basic facts

>>11913373
>and it is the philosophy that connects them

>>11913368
Yes it is you fucking retard

>>11913390
Hahahahah

No. Berkeley's subjective idealism/hard solipsism would be if we're gonna play that game.

>>11913298
Godel would like to shit on your face.

>>11912735
>hey maaannnn, don't you know that the corporations and capitalism and materialism are like, bad, maaaannn?
>let's read the the Bhagavad Gita and do some acid, mmaaannnn. that way we can open our chakras and get into some reiki healing, mmmaaannn.

Masturbative spirituality is no better materialism. It just makes you smell worse.

>>11913402
*AUTHENTIC SPIRITUALITY INTENSIFIES*

>>11913402
>>11913137

>Hurr durr if I don't understand something it doesn't exist

This is your mind on C++

>>11913399
and thats bad because... ?

>>11913402
Not that type of materialism, you fucking vegetable

>>11913419
>If I can understand something it must exist

This is your mind on smug.

>>11913419
Please explain, what is exist?
spoiler: you cant

>>11913430
The fact of having objective reality.

>>11912759
How so?

>>11913429
Did anyone claim that it must exist you retard?

>>11913428

>>11912903
>>11912923
>>11913368
>>11912857
>>11913390

>_______ is/isn't ______, you fucking _______

Your programming is showing.

>>11913443
A bronze statue isn't just a lump of bronze

>>11913451
>>11913197
>>11913110
>programming
>show

Your programming is showing.

>>11913445
>babbies first logic problem
http://www.nativlang.com/logic/logic-conv-inv-contrapos.php

>>11913457
Your (((programming))) is (((showing))). Understood?

>>11913451
>>11913457
>>11913469

Your program is show.

>>11913464
People aren't calming a negative you utter retard, they're talking about possibility.

>>11913451
>>11913457
>>11913469
>>11913478
your pogrom is shoahing

>>11913383
>>11913378
That’s the whole point of philosophy: that there exists a mentality where you can analyze material phenomena and unite them in a single area of understanding. This is how epistemology works. The philosophy of anyone who interprets material phenomena fundamentally altered how it is interpreted by others.

If Ptolemy used Hipparchus’ model for interpreting lunar anomalies, then he wouldn’t have developed the formula to fully calculate the lunar parallaxes at any angle around the 360 degree orbit. You have to understand, just like philosophy, science adapts and evolves with the philosophy of the scientists. It is thanks to Aristotle, and subsequently Ibn Al Haytham, that we interpret visual phenomena as something external interacting with our eyes, instead of Euclid’s extravisionary model

>>11913487
u pog is shh

>>11913487
showing is your program

>>11913486
>it is possible that philosophy is important, so materialism is not truth

>>11913440
>no object without subject
btfo

>>11913489
the hell are you babbling about, analyzing concepts with your mind is not 'philosophy'. Scientists don't look at epistemology or ontology before they do their work. A lot of shit that Al haytham did was based on Euclids mathematics. Simply using math and physics in a unified way is not philosophy, at least in the contemporary sense.

>>11913513
Prove materialism is true.

>>11913553
I never claimed that materialism is truth.

>>11913402

I just said that philosophical/spiritual/metaphysical isn't any better, and that it produces people who smell worse than materialists.

>>11912752
>be NPC
>post latest meme
>refute with meme-tiered response
>circuit normalized [A/x=11111111---------] NORMAL FUNCTIONING RESUMED

>>11913530
>Simply using math and physics in a unified way
This. This right here. This is what I was searching for.

What does this mean?

>>11913588
are you telling me the periodic table is a philosophical system? is that where you're getting at?

>>11913614
I’m not getting at anything yet, I want you to define the terms you just used.

What is a ‘unified way’ mean to you?

>>11913616
>literally arguing semantics

>>11913454
I see what you're saying and I agree with you to that extent but I think your initial statement is partially invalidated by that reasoning. Is that the organization of the matter on a subatomic level or the formation given to the substance? Something more precise.

>>11912735
The funny thing is your actually right

>>11913137
Go on and believe that life is worth living without philosophy; or literature, art, poetry for that matter. The world is already bleak enough.

>>11913666
>dramatic threats are an argument

>>11912872
Science-kun, what is the mass if the number 1 in kg? Or its energy in Joules?

>>11912788
Congrats anon, you and your degenerate colleagues can develop atom bombs big enough to shatter the earth into asteroids but you can't stop the breakdown of society and all the ills that come with it. Material contrivance will never make men happy or satisfied. It is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. It is written that all is vain.

>>11913684
>dramatic religious threats are an argument

>>11913633
I just want you to define what you used.

The problem with the dogmatically scientific and mathematical doctrines is that they pigeonhole their participants (graduates) into a major where they are philosophically battling all elements of philosophy. This is the problem with the segmented academic culture you exist in. It simply is designed to produce chaos.

If I pressed you to define the term you just used, you couldn’t. In fact it means nothing but ‘using math in a sciency way’ which is equivalent to ‘feeling superior to philosophy majors’.

Let’s face it, Ptolemy references Aristotle in The Almagest, Irving Fisher references Kant in his Mathematical Investigations... and I could think of countless other examples where extremely complicated mathematical texts are utilizing philosophy to fundamentally back their claims.

The stance you have is unbelievably childish, puerile, and petulant. You cannot be older than the age of 22 and if you are, may God have mercy on your soul

>>11913574
Materialism only produces one type of person: those dependent on material happiness. Cars, money, looks for the sake of approval.

Philosophy can produce many varieties of thought, all containing a sliver of truth. Etymology, ethics, metaphysics, etc.

One could argue that materialism is simply one school of philosophy. One could argue that it's also a school of thought furthest from the truth given its basis in vanity.

STEMfags can't see the forest through the trees. If only they understood that historically, science has proceeded counterinductively, would they see that philisophical inquiry, and non-scientific inquiry in general, is perfectly amicable with that of the scientific kind. Claiming that science has put these philosophical issues to bed does nothing but hamstring scientific progress. It should be compulsory for all stemFUCKINGFAGGOTS to read Feyerabend.

>>11913677
I know you're just baiting, I'm not sure why I even bother to give (you)'s. The other anon already BTFO you anyway.

>>11913692
That anon's just not gunna get it. Some people think that their definitions are shared and their assumptions are obvious truths.

>>11913677
>green text memes are arguments
Please explain what a world without art would look like. Oh wait, you fundamentally can't because it's inherent to man; as much as bread and water are.

>>11913696
My point is that arguing values is a circle-jerk, and the OP is one of the gayest, ball-touchingest, pseudo-intellectual circle-jerks of all.

>materialism is the truth, there is nothing more than the physical and philosophy is a waste of time

>waste of time

How is philosophy less of a waste of time than materialism? Who decided the relative value of the products of each lifestyle?

>>11913724
I believe that you believe that art is inherent to man.

>>11913696
Materialism != materialistic lifestyle

I'm a materialist yet I don't derive much happiness from material objects. It's also a mistake to think that feeling isn't material in itself anyways.

>>11913742
Name a single society in the history of man that existed who didn't create some sort of art.

Pro tip: you can't.

>>11912788
>how many computers has poetry invented? how many cures for diseases did Homer discover?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7FuAswPW0

>>11913737
>interpreting an interpreted greentext interpretation as literal

>>11912859
I don't think you understand the conversation, anon. Sure, we can do a brain scan and see electrical activity produced by thought, but if you crack someone's skull open and dig in their brains you'll be disappointed upon finding no evidence of thought in a physical manifestation. That is, that though you can find material correspondence to the occurrence of immaterial experience, that does not make the experience itself material. It exists specifically in the immaterial realm of the abstract. Thoughts and experiences are not spatiotemporal. It is unquestionable that materialism is absurd based on the dual existence of the material and the immaterial My question remains: what is the relationship between the material and immaterial realms?

Why aren't people like OP and this redditor materialist poster banned instantly? Shit tier thread with retarded pseuds everywhere. This is worse than a high school philosophy class.

>>11913701
It should also be compulsory for Philfags to read Karl Popper and learn their place.

>>11912788
>lmao, we'll be dragging you humanities fags into the technological improved future whether you like it or not. but hopefully most of you die off when you realize just how nonessential your """occupations""" are

>>11913748
>man has only ever existed in a society
wew lad, you're on a roll

>>11913748
the united states

>>11913696
Materialism produced the instrument you're currently using to shitpost on this forum

>>11913761
>>man has only ever existed in a society
He has though. Only retarded liberal social contractists believe in the fairy tale that man existed in nature solitarily. Even the smallest tribe was a society. Even literal cavemen expressed themselves through art.

>>11913764
based

>>11913751
>bad arguments must be metaphor

>>11913764
uhhh jazz?

>because one man in a tribe makes art, art is inherent to all men in a tribe

>>11913770
>when a greentext isn't a greentext but still a greentext to define the meaning of greentext

ik that was the point

>>11913779
>>because one man in a tribe makes art, art is inherent to all men in a tribe

>>11913779
I hope you're trolling desu

SCIENCE FUCK YEAH

DUDE PROGRESS

COULD YOU IMAGINE LIVING 200 YEARS AGO? THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE 90 INCH SOYK TV TO WATCH BLACKED AND AVENGERS

THANKS TO TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY I CAN FILM MY WIFE GETTING HER ASS DESTROYED BY OUR BULL

>>11913786

>>11913789
>well, if you can't accept my assertion, I don't have anything left to say
typical

>>11913793
OMG I COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT MY BASEDTENDO SWITCH OR MY KIKEPHONE 15

I WOULDN'T HAVE EVEN BEEN ABLE TO GET A VASECTOMY BACK THEN

WE'RE SO PROGRESSIVE

>>11913803
>>11913793
>strawman

>>11913402
>n-no you!
Seriously?

>>11913757
Pooper tacitly agreed Firebrand you silly stemFAGGOT.

>>11913805
>basedman

>>11913805
I know right that guy is such a jerk. The modern world is the best there's ever been and we're only PROGRESSING further.

Ugh, I have to go now, my wife needs me to go pick up abdul for her.

>>11913764
Music: Blues, Gospel, Jazz, Rock, EDM, Hip Hop (interestingly all black in origin)
Philosophy: Pragmatism
Art movements: Pop art?
Literature and Poetry: Dark romanticism, Transcendentalism, Beat

>>11913759
Based Tower of Babel poster

>>11913806
>no claim
>no argument
>no point

wow, what an insightful post

>>11913815
All absolutely shit tier, especially the kiked nigger music.

>>11913813
>>11913803
>>11913793
>>11913811
Can someone come collect the /pol/smokers?

>>11913811
>shadman

>>11913245
>The absolute state of modern science
You'd have to be an NPC to pursue material interaction without any consideration of the broader implications of these interactions on an immaterial level. Have fun inventing elephant toothpaste you neanderthal.

>>11913819
>Can someone come collect the /pol/smokers?
t. SEETHING materialist who has been BTFO by at least 20 different anons. This board really needs ID's.

>>11913757
Popper
>We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

>>11913803
>>11913793
diversitypilled

>>11913817
The point is to mock you.
>>11913824
>board really needs ID's.
This. The quality of /lit/ would go up x10.

>>11913803
apple isnt owned or run by jews

>>11913824
220 replies, and no one has proven that philosophy is any better than materialism

>>11913818
You're moving the goalposts now. Perceived value was never a part of the discussion

this threat is based

>>11912756
>at least i'm making meaningful contributions to morty goldbergstein's bank account for meager payment, no benefits, and no job security
god bless stem fags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzILFasKWQs&pbjreload=10

I think this gets at the heart of the problem.
Philosophy acts as a way of organizing facts which we gain from scientific research. It is fundamental because we are firstmost "beings". So we must understand the world as such and not as the multitude of facts.

>>11913807
exactly, both saw philosophy without a scientific backbone (and vice versa) as shit. So why do Philosophy Homosexuals insist that they see a forest those filthy NPC autists don't see?

>>11913838
>hurr de durr

>>11913838
There have been at least 15 quality posts that have and we have all read them. If you think you're more intelligent than decades of philosophers and scientists who disagree with you then no one else here can convince you otherwise really.

>>11912801
this wojak is kinda cute

>>11913831
>The point is to mock you.

pic related

>>11913757
>know your place, philosophy majors. ANTI-PHILOSOPHY GANG
Did you look up "how to win arguments" on google, come up with nothing, and then look at the wikipedia of a random philospher and say "read him and then youll understand"?

>>11913849
>decades
Meant to say centuries.

>>11913838
Materialism is a philosophy, you dingus.

>>11913838
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

>>11912808
you answer phones for a front desk at turbo tax you arent a sciencefiction technocrat saving the human race with your brilliant and out of the box solutions to the field of quantum computing

>>11913851
Why did you link an image of a horse?

>>11913857
>YouTube video with "quantum physics" in the title
I'm gonna pass.

>>11913269

>>11913849
In all of those posts, all I have seen are assertions of value and appeals to authority.

You all believe that one is superior to another, but there is no way to prove is. "Truth" to you is the option you like more.

>When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
>When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
>When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
>When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
>How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
>Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
>In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
>Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

-Walt Whitman

>>11912847
got em

>>11913857
I disagree with the materialist in this thread but that YouTube channel is still trash.

>>11913862
he is providing you a window into the world of forms you idleton

>>11913871
>someone not liking the science of astronomy means materialism is false

>>11913844
Which worldview permeates every facet of society; the philosophical or the scientific? Most, if not ALL epistemological hubris is located in the scientific side of the argument. It's the reason why Against Method was written in the first place.

>>11913880
Who claimed he didn't like astronomy? He was in the lecture hall nonetheless.

>>11913137
>mad at sentence structure

>>11912806
All of existence.

"Material" refers to a shallow concept of how things feel to us. Materialism suggests that we can provide satisfactory explanation of phenomena through understanding of the base material parts. Atomism and Corpuscular theory and the like.

First of all, there are endless philosophical proofs that counter this. But you think philosophy is dumb (lol), so we'll stick to physics.

There is no indivisible, quantifiable unit of matter in physics. The very substance of the universe is vague, indeterminate, and defiant of all intuitive concepts of not only the material, but the existent. Even cause and effect seems to be nonfundamental - events without cause occur all the time at the quantum level, and causality presupposes a passage of time which itself seems not to be an actual quality of the universe.

You also have particles that interact as if in contact despite existing in different locations in space. It seems to me, personally, that position in spacetime is simply a quality of the object in the same sense that its color, name, or any other predicate might be. All projections of the human understanding.

You see, first you recognize that the intuitive notions of human perception fail to do justice to the reality of the world that has been determined by modern science. Then you must recognize that materialism is just an endeavor to justify the intuitive notions of human perception as real. Under materialism, matter and motion are supposed to provide adequate explanation for the fundamental workings of reality. Then you look at science, and realize that it fucking don't. Things are a lot weirder than John Locke wanted it to be.

>>11913764
damn...

>>11913890
>There is no indivisible, quantifiable unit of matter in physics.

stopped reading, gay pseudo-science ahead

>>11913905
>indivisible, quantifiable unit of matter in physics
I mean he's right

Isn't the act of asserting any view nothing more then philosophy?After all you are claiming that truth exists and that is a philosophical statement in of itself.

I think reading some of these posts has deteriorated my reading comprehension

>>11913905
name it

>>11913912
Yes. Stemfags seem to forgot that science is a type, a subset of philosophical inquiry; its autistic little brother.

>>11913920
elementary particles you stupid faggot

All non-materialists are retards. The brain is the pilot of the body, using processing to avoid pain and seek pleasure. This process is refined by natural selection and complex social forces.

The end-state for humanity is a brain floating in liquid, while electric current flows through the pleasure synapses, producing endless bliss. There is no higher goal. That is peak civilization. Automated systems feed and oxygenate it. We watch sport, have sex, eat, enjoy music, because we are programmed or conditioned to get pleasure out of that. Now we can skip to the end and activate pleasure centers immediately, without using drugs. Happiness is a quantifiable, material objective.

>>11913928
Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration

>>11913934
>a young man on acid realized
Told you there was gay pseudo-science ahead.

>>11913929
I know this is bait, but the Sam Harris-type would ACTUALLY be okay with this existence.

>>11913929
>complex social forces
nice non-material force you cited, materialist

>>11913929
Do you think every person would volunteer to become a brain in a vat?

>>11913928
aren't those possibly made of strings and thus not guaranteed to be elementary?
you're like 40 years wrong

>>11913952
>social forces aren't material phenomena

wew

>>11913946
"All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration" is a SCIENTIFIC FACT!!!

>1950s cold war propaganda insisting that you should shut up and work and not at all think abut the world around you still persisting to this day
dog bless

>>11913361
>I've never read anything more stupid in my life.
That's a really dramatic thing to say

>It's not a mere opinion whether or not [OP's opinion] is true or not.

Materialism is an opinion. It can be argued against quite easily, but the nature of the claim that matter and motion may provide adequate explanation of reality is essentially the same as that of the claim that the existence of God provides an adequate explanation for the workings of reality. It's evaluative, noncommittal, and horizon-facing, such that every passing development of science could spit in the face of the theory and you can still hold out on the presumption that the facts will eventually come around.
But perhaps it wasn't fair to classify it as an "opinion". What it shares with the opinion is the lack of opportunity to prove or disprove it with certainty, and that's what I was referring to. You can only disprove something in a field of concrete premises, and there seem to be none involved in this thread. That's the issue I mean to point out.

Sorry for providing you with the STUPIDEST THING YOU EVER READ IN YOUR LIFE OMG

>>11913965
This is why popular science needs to die.

>>11913929
>The end-state for humanity is a brain floating in liquid, while electric current flows through the pleasure synapses, producing endless bliss. There is no higher goal. That is peak civilization. Automated systems feed and oxygenate it.

>>11913934

>>11913967
What does it feel like to know what causes everything?

>>11913976
take this from a engineer... all matter is energy and all energy is matter and vice versa vice versa vice versa. That is not "popular science" that is a scientific fact. Scientific models are just different approaches to the same phenomena. Grow up. E = mc^2 faggot

>>11913980

>>11913985
>Take it from an engineer
>Take this scientific principle from a non-scientist

t. engineer

>>11913983
awful

>>11913985
>>>/sci/ says differently

>>11913979

Thats literally it though. A good book enthralls us, makes us feel good. So does sex and popularity. We take drugs to make us hijack the brain, but now we can just cause the pleasure reaction directly.

Wireheading is maximum utility for everyone by definition.

>>11913998
utility is a spook

>>11913929
it's funny how every argument for materialism presupposes materialism

>Materialism is true, because material is made of matter, and matter = matter, and everything is matter, therefore everything = matter. To further support my argument, here's a materialistic description of a material concept. As you can see, material is quite material. Checkmate, philosophy.

>>11913998
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sWnMDcCMQY

>>11914001

"Comparing the respective behavioural effects of heroin and cocaine is instructive. If rats or monkeys are hooked up to an intravenous source of heroin (or other potent mu opioid agonist such as fentanyl), the animals will happily self-administer the drug indefinitely; but they still find time to sleep and eat. If rats or monkeys have the opportunity to self-administer cocaine without limit, however, they will do virtually nothing else. They continue to push a drug-delivery lever for as long as they are physically capable of doing so. Within weeks, if not days, they will lose a substantial portion of their body weight - up to 40%. Within a month, they will be dead."

The rats look very happy. Their utility function is as high as it can possibly be.

>>11913998
Those things make us feel good in comparison to existing in the mire, utopian perma-pleasure is not pleasurable

>>11913985
Bill Hicks was a comedian, and you're a fucking joke. I never said that matter wasn't composed of energy, just that "vibrations, mmmaaannn" is a very naive, gay, and pseudo-scientific misrepresentation of fact.

>>11912735
>materialists reject philosophy
hurr durr

>>11913998
>maximum utility
are you having fun reading Pinker, pseud?

>>11914012

Masturbation is shit compared to wireheading. Orders of magnitude less fun and you cant do it forever.

>>11914016

Wrong. Pleasure is the electric current going through that part of your brain. More current, more pleasure. You can't get used to it like drugs.

>>11913992
>my sports team is more sportsy than yours

engineers go through the exact same fundamental courses in undergraduate idiot. Calculus, DiffEq, Linear Algebra, etc. all lead to physics which is the basis of all STEM fields.

math is purely philosophical

go into the world and bring me a 1 or a 7 in its purest form

>>11913929
This sounds about right, but I think the end-state of humanity may actually a period of decay and then unstoppable and rampant nihilism while rejecting every single human construct from before, until everyone agrees to commit mass suicide.

>>11914047
not true btw

>>11914047

Nihilism is right. Nothing matters except seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. All human values are learned or evolved ways to get to these ends. We will soon be able to bypass these structures, constructs as you say and get what we want. Then super fun happy times forever.

>>11914058
>Nihilism is right

>>11914047
>everyone becomes a dirty nihilist!
Were you the one that got angry when you had to read Camus in highschool?

>>11914058
Avoiding pain only shakes the bottle before the cap blows. Enduring pain gives us the means to acknowledge the inevitable

>>11914033
>engineers take prerequisite courses that lead into modern physics classes therefore engineers know modern physics
ok

>>11914039
1
7

>>11914063

100%. Law, culture, architecture, civilization aren't important in and of themselves. They're means to an end. Literally all of human civilization, consumerism and the other kind of materialism is trying to make ourselves happy.

Happiness plus basic biological needs is all that matters. And happiness can be achieved by electrodes.

>>11914071
>engineers don't understand the physics they use every day
t. brainlet

>>11914029
Wouldn't intracranial self-stimulation rely on the release of dopamine and/or serotonin and therefore be reliant on 'drugs' and all the caveats of desensitization and so on?

Post a source with your next assertion.

>tfw half of /lit/ fell for this pseud Twitter meme

>>11914081
>engineers use particle and quantum physics to design cars and chemical plants

>>11914077
Nope, what makes rest pleasurable is the struggle and work that preceded it, but what do you know about that you nihilist slug

>>11914075
kekd and rekt

>>11914077
there is no end. There is not species end goal. You faggot fucking computer programs think everything is a video game and jerk off to joe rogan's high rambling about AI

There is no Big Other that gives purpose to life and consciousness. There is no end goal.

>>11914084

Good thing you asked.

https://www.wireheading.com/

" Apparently not. That's what's so revealing about wireheading. Unlike food, drink or sex, the experience of pleasure itself exhibits no tolerance, even though our innumerable objects of desire certainly do so. Thus we can eventually get bored of anything - with a single exception. Stimulation of the pleasure-centres of the brain never palls. Fire them in the right way, and boredom is neurochemically impossible. Its substrates are missing. Electrical stimulation of the mesolimbic dopamine system is more intensely rewarding than eating, drinking, and love-making; and it never gets in the slightest a bit tedious. It stays exhilarating. The unlimited raw pleasure conjured up by wirehead bliss certainly inspires images of monotony in the electrode-naïve outsider; but that's a different story altogether."

>>11914067
>Avoiding pain only shakes the bottle before the cap blows
blah blah blah. Your thoughts aren't stronger than your biology, in the future you'll be happy forever, (or dead, in our case!)
>Enduring pain gives us the means to acknowledge the inevitable
What is "the inevitable"?

>>11914097

>>11914091
>nihilist slug
>"guys, Nietzsche said himself he was a nihilist, AND hated jews. Still nihilist?"

>>11914077
right, you can be a happy materialist, and you can get by quite well thinking in material terms

that doesn't make it correct

>>11914091
>what makes rest pleasurable is the struggle and work that preceded it
Actually, it's the chemicals in the brain.
>>11914097
When everything else is meaningless, hedonism is a good goal desu.

>>11914097
Except for the ones we set.

>>11914109
No you fucking mongoloid you can't simulate the pleasure of achieving a goal you worked hard towards with chemicals

>>11914091
>>11914097

What's life if not the pursuit of happiness? I know for a biological fact what pleasure is, you guys just spew philosophy and social constructs designed to make me work harder.

>>11914075

>>11914098
>never gets in the slightest a bit tedious
I like how that part isn't sourced, explain away the decline in dopamine signaling from overstimulation, please.

>>11914116
thats for YOU TO DECIDE with the power of PHILOSOPHY

>>11914098
what a pathetic comment by the dalai lhama

>>11914116
>what is life but good feelies in my willie

You're an animal. Man must go beyond himself. Suffering conditions pleasure, as pleasure conditions suffering. A basic truism you could find in a fucking anime but you're still apparently deaf to. Read more you child

>>11914115

Wrong. Achieving a goal stimulates the pleasure sense. And it's not chemicals, electricity is the way.

>>11914115
How do you think "pleasure" is generated?
Every aspect of your consciousness has a foundation on your brain, and thus can be altered by making physical modifications.

We can't do it right now, but the humans of the future ARE brains floating in capsules (even if it sounds "sad")

>>11914109
>>11914102

>>11912926
>p-plus I am a genius scientist man too so don't even think about trying argue against me

lmao I can feel your autism seeping into your posts. Go take a nap of something champ

>>11914099
Why are you arguing for arguments sake?
If you avoid a pain (in your thoughts) that you know to exist, the inevitable (aka that pain) will not sit AS well once it slaps you in the face.

>>11914123

If you read the bit about the rat on cocaine, it's like that. It just keeps pressing the button.

Also: https://www.wireheading.com/pleasure/compulsive-selfstimulation.html

>>11914132

Normally you'd be right about it being bad in the long run. But art, culture and so on are just other ways of making yourself feel good.

>>11914138
Your retarded position is already refuted by the nightmare that women afflicted with that permanent orgasm syndrome report it is. Thanks for outing yourself as the disgusting dopamine drip addicted groid that you are though

>>11914137
Is the endorphin rush after workout a product of my knowledge that I just went hard and pushed my limits, or do I feel good about that very thing because endorphins are suddenly flooding my system? Answer the question.

>>11914116
if life was the pursuit of happiness then we'd be better at it

instead, we hold ourselves back for the sake of principles

all human beings enforce a concept of how things should be and prioritize that above all else, happiness is a secondary priority.

>>11914154
>All pleasure generated by art is a base, material pleasure because base, material pleasure is also

Retarded false equivalency, go back to your dickgirla faggot

>>11914156

Feel good endorphins activate the brains pleasure sensor regardless of their origin. But we don't need endorphins, just current through the neurons.

https://www.wireheading.com/pleasure.html

>>11914176
Answer the question retard

>>11914171

All I'm getting is retarded ad hominems in this thread. You get different kinds of pleasure. A lot of it is just conditioning: 'all the cool kids like the Mona Lisa, so I should like it too'. We like things that we think other people like. We sometimes internalise this just to look better to others, because popularity feels good, having friends feels good and it all comes back to endorphins stimulating the reward center.

>>11914146
(I'm >>11914138)
I don't care about any syndrome, ANY real life situation you can think of as of right now, isn't comparable to what I'm describing.
I couldn't find anything about a permanent orgasm anyway, but if it existed today, it'd be hell for the user as we are still held down by the things humans have created (such as society, how can you function in society while having a permanent orgasm?).

I'm talking about a distant future where everything humanity has built is no longer, and our species is just an endless collection of brain in neverending pleasure. That will be the final state of humanity.

>Is the endorphin rush after workout a product of my knowledge that I just went hard and pushed my limits, or do I feel good about that very thing because endorphins are suddenly flooding my system?
Both, but again, you're thinking about it in terms of the 21st century. I have no idea what scientists of the future will come up with for the system I'm describing to work.

>>11914186
Joy, truly wholesome gratification is an emotion far more complex than whatever's stimulated by smoking crack.

You're a dopamine cultist is what you are. I'm not even gonna respond to the rest of your post its so insipid.

Why the fuck is this board's bump limit 300?

>>11914179

Are you retarded? You ask me whether the knowledge or the endorphins make you happy. I say it doesn't matter, happiness stems from the reward center of the brain. You can think good thoughts and be happy. You can do workouts and be happy. You can take drugs and be happy. Or you can just electrify the reward center and you will be as happy as its possible to be.

>>11914189
>it'd be hell for the user as we are still held down by the things humans have created (such as society, how can you function in society while having a permanent orgasm?).

No you dumbass the feeling itself is hell, not whatever roadblocks society puts on maximum pleasure. You are a child who wants to eat candy forever without a tummy ache.

>>11914195
Your stimulation of it will be crude, a blunt tool compared to the scalpel of discipline and hard work. You. Are. A. Child.

>>11914191

>You're not saying something socially acceptable. In all of human history, virtuous activities were more acceptable than the electrical equivalent of superdrugs. Intellectually I know what he says is right, but it disagrees with my principles, so I deny it.

This is you.

>>11914196
I have given it some more thought, and your analogy is complete garbage. Humans won't even have bodies.

>>11914189
These (>>11914146 >>11914067) were my only responses.

What you're describing is heaven, nirvana, paradise, yada yada... congrats

>>11914212
Lol as if your reddit brand of dopamine cultism isn't exactly what's in right now, I bet you all just wanna tune out and press your commie button forever but forgive us if some of us have higher goals for humanity, or at least ourselves.

>>11914215
Autism

>>11914217
Doesn't sound like heaven to me actually, but I do think it is the natural conclusion of humanity.

And I'm talking about this "paradise" because this discussion has its roots on >>11913929.
>The end-state for humanity is a brain floating in liquid, while electric current flows through the pleasure synapses, producing endless bliss. There is no higher goal. That is peak civilization. Automated systems feed and oxygenate it. We watch sport, have sex, eat, enjoy music, because we are programmed or conditioned to get pleasure out of that. Now we can skip to the end and activate pleasure centers immediately, without using drugs. Happiness is a quantifiable, material objective.

>>11914240
>higher goals
surely you mean spooks

>>11914255
>everything but my position is self-refuting

>>11914262
a spook is a spook

>>11914195
>>11914202
Having experienced many of the psychotropic delights currently available to humanity, the sheer bliss it affords lacks something when compared to the more modest pleasure that is rewarded upon the completion of a challenging task or after performing an altruistic act for another living thing.
Emotional pleasure is nothing without it being paired with an intellectual high.
Writhing in delight for a 10 hours does indeed get boring, transhumanist goobers just wouldn't get that, never having had the balls to try.

>>11914240

Spoken like a truly condescending retard.

Imagine your ideal future. Everything you want appears on demand. You can fly anywhere, see anything, eat whatever, whenever. There are more top-tier movies than you could ever watch. More brilliant literature than you could ever read.

But your standards grow ever higher. The world today is the paradise of our ancestors, yet we don't think its that great. How will the world of tomorrow be different?

You will always have broadly the same level of happiness in any society, without neurological change. Only neurological change, not wealth, literature or art can make people significantly happier.

>>11914286
or, you could fucking ignore that, get on with your life, cope, and then die in maybe 40 years like a mentally stable person.

>>11914286
Happiness is a spook. There are higher things.

>>11914272

Then we cut out boredom as well. Boredom is just another part of the brain.

Do you think mastering a skill is IN AND OF ITSELF fun? Or is it something that's rewarded because it gives a survival advantage?

/lit/ based discord. join if you like at least a few of these things. warning: it's slow moving

1. literature
2. philosophy
3. sports (especially mma)
4. scantily clad/nude women
5. music

>>11914303
higher things are also a spook

>>11914309
https://discord.gg/ySSnRM

>>11914308
>Do you think mastering a skill is IN AND OF ITSELF fun?

Yes you fucking bugman

>>11914303

Like what? What is more important than happiness, that isn't important because it makes you happy?

>>11914309
fuck off loser
im going to fuck your face

>>11914324
Self-overcoming

>>11914309
why would I actively want to converse with other fucking shut in losers?

>>11914320

That's a rhetorical question I posed. Mastering a skill LEADS to fun, because it's something that improved our chances to reproduce. Our brains REWARD us for doing this shit. And the reward is fun.

>>11914340
because its fun

>>11914324
Aspiring for happiness is begging for destruction in a individual and in a societal level.Content and moderation are needed.

>>11914388

For now. But in future, we will be able to get away with it. Maybe 99% slumber in ecstasy, while the small number who refuse (like much of this thread) watch over them. Someone has to maintain the machines.

>>11914348
I think trying to distinguish between the two to be impossible and a fool's errand, at least until the nature of consciousness is better understood, either towards your reductionist mechanical view or something higher.
What is clear is that you would create a mouse utopia devoid of progress in order to chase a hollow concept of 'fun' and 'happiness'. Suffering is necessary for survival, why would people in a wirehead society continue to procreate?
You'd have to set up the wombatrons to keep shitting out idiots to plug in just so you would have a reason to keep the lights on, it'd create the meaningless world you imagine yourself to be in.
If people (other than you) find reason in the current world other than onanistically zapping themselves, then there is reason to be found in an existence of suffering.

You need to learn to appreciate, if not enjoy suffering. It's all very silly and funny if you have the right perspective.

>>11914394
I am not sure about that.I am curious as to how humans will deal with the effect of constant stimulus(numbness for example).If we can find some way to circumvent that we still have to put in question the value of suffering and lucidity.There is to many questions to ponder when it comes to the validity of your(more like possible future) scenario.

>>11914348
>Mastering a skill LEADS to fun, because it's something that improved our chances to reproduce.
.
We follow our instincts more than we follow pleasure sources. Mastering a skill is fulfilling not because of premise of eventual pleasure, or of sex, in fact such people tend to favor the work over pleasure sources.

We're instinctually driven, as social beings, to benefit the community, and an extension of that is a desire to be productive, as to contribute to the project of the general human race.

>>11913928
elementary particles are neither material nor determinate

>>11914402

We are all conditioned to dislike the mouse utopia, as you say. I maintain that certain prerequisites are needed first. A post-scarcity automated economy, some kind of Friendly AI to make it all work + immortality (should be easy if we're just a brain in a box). I don't see a need for reproduction at all, children are only another road to happiness.

But suffering? Suffering is just another tool used to coerce us against doing things that reduce our chance of reproducing aeons ago.

I think a wirehead 'stasis-society' is inevitable. We will one day perfect art, literature (just ways of manipulating the human brain without touching it). There will be little left to do with our eternity than be SUPER HAPPY FUN forever.

This kind of debate is represented interestingly here:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HawFh7RvDM4RyoJ2d/three-worlds-collide-0-8

>>11913172
no the self refers to an variable, arbitrary set of elements that strike it as more intimately significant

>>11914437
Accidents happen, brains after aeons may choose to disconnect. You need a way of maintaining numbers for the system to support, or do you envisage a (very, very) slow dwindle to extinction?

I won't argue with you about suffering, you have your meat-robot view of what we are and that's fine. I hope you're wrong but we won't know until we die or at all.

I'd like you to elaborate on the perfection of art and literature, given that the parameters for a perfect work (ignoring arguments of subjectivity) seem to me to shift based on it's predecessors in a dialectical fashion. It seems naive to me to suppose this won't just recurse full-circle.

Cheers for the link.

>>11913137
Explain why empirical evidence brings one closer objective truth than pure rational thought without being dogmatic

lol

>>11913402
reading the Bhagavad Gita on acid is unironically a good idea though

why are you people so terrified of materialism

>>11912847
>Is metaphysics a legitimate enterprise at all?
Fuck off, analytic

>all these people falling for the most obvious STEM bait possible
Are there any armchair psychoanalysts who'd like to tell me why people can't stop falling for such obvious trolls?

>>11915283
Because being angry is fun

>>11914075
But you didn't show my anything, just some pixels moved on a screen.

>perception is just a Jewish lie you stupid philfags. Take it from me, an engieer who quadruple majored in engineering, math, physics, and compsci. Get a job