/lit/ - Literature

>>11840285
they're depressed from sleep deprivation, alcohol and cigs

Art is primarly cathartic.
Most artist produce their work because they're trying to esorcize something's wrong with them.
It's only reasonable that most of them end up mentally unstable

>>11840285
Clinical depression.

>>11840306
Mainly this. If someone writes for a reason other than money, there is generally a deep seeded motive. If an author can't properly translate what's inside them, it tends to drive them mad.

>>11840285
>”And is thy father still active in the Republic?” Pilar asked.
>“No. He is dead.”
>“Can one ask how he died?”
>“He shot himself.”
>“To avoid being tortured?” the woman asked.
>“Yes,” Robert Jordan said. “To avoid being tortured.”

>>11840285
They're smart

>>11840802
Sounds pretentious as fuck, but yeah, it's this

>>11840285
Only the good ones do

On a second note, why the hell did he kill himself?

I keep looking for reasons to why was he so depressed, but I find nothing. Depression isn't hereditary, there has to be a starting point, a childhood trauma, some crisis in life -- yet the only thing I found he talking about it was when he noticed that his life was perfect and yet he didn't feel happy. I mean, what the heck?

>>11841056
He was psychotically depressed

>>11841056
didn't he get desensitized to antidepressants which fucked him up

>>11840689
>deep seeded
Deep seated.

>>11840303
>they're depressed from sleep deprivation, alcohol and cigs

Cart before the horse

>>11840285
Literally because they're too smart for life and believe nothing can satisfy their creative or spiritual cravings

Because modern life is absolutely garbage. No hope of love or meaning

>>11841097
No they switched antidepressants on him and he thought they were ruining his writing so he tried to go back to the old one but couldn’t get a prescription so he stopped taking them

>>11841071
>>11841097

Yeah he was and yeah he got, but my question is WHY he developed depression in the first place. I couldn't find anything about that: his life seemed fine, his relationship with his parents seemed fine, he always got what he wanted. So what was the starting point?

In The Depressed Person the main reason for the character to be depressed is how she got used by her parents to afect each other throughout their divorce, but I couldn't find anything about his parents doing the same, so in the end I was still left with no answers.

>>11841133
Maybe stop being an armchair psychologist.
It's not like we need any more of those.

>>11841101
Drinking, smoking and addiction usually doesn't happen because you're suicidal and depressed beyond help. It starts as a coping mechanism for stressors which aren't necessarily unconquerable, and as the drug abuse becomes more uncontrollable it destroys your health, relationships, work, etc, to the point that it can't be salvaged and drink is the only release. That is when an alcoholic becomes suicidal.

>>11840285
I think I understand at least a dimension of it. Healthy people are satisfied with money, recognition, and the respect of their peers. There is really no need for them to analyze life very deeply when they are content. So, generally, a non-depressive will make a mediocre writer. Not always terrible but the best they can hope for is basically NPR-tier.

A depressive is not motivated by money or by reputation. They have a starkly realistic view of the world and themselves. If they can maintain a work ethic, they will continue to write and try to improve beyond success, beyond adoration, until they can write something that is completely true, completely beautiful, or both. That’s why the best writers tend to be chronic depressives.

>>11840796
There is something to be said for Hem’s less-is-more style. It doesn’t always work and I think he went a little to far with it sometimes, but that, “Yes... to avoid being tortured.” Is really effective.

>>11840796
>Maybe...you'll fall in love with me all over again."
>”Hell," I said, "I love you enough now. What do you want to do? Ruin me?"
>"Yes. I want to ruin you."
>"Good," I said. "That's what I want too.

>>11840285
Most of them are cowards.

Self-destruction is the ultimate act of self-actualization
There is no stronger way to will meaning on a meaningless world
nietzsche was a coward and a rat, desperately scrambling for an out, all of his theorizing on morality comes out to a couple laughable excuses and cognitive dissonance, glory in the meat grinder, charge headlong into death and embrace the only truly free decision you may make

>>11840285
Try killing yourself then and tell us how it felt afterwards

>>11841133
The dude was on Parnate, that's some seriously strong stuff you take not because you're sad but because you haven't felt an emotion in years or you have an inexplicable urge to suicide despite being an intelligent and successful person. Those things you mention are impactful, yeah, but they're not 'it'. It's a disease. It's not natural.

>>11841133
Because he grew up in a society rich in every material need and comfrot you could want, but which offered no spiritual meaning. The highest goal he could aim for was to become wealthy or (if for the academically inclined) study the philosophy, history, politics and economics that created a society so materially rich and spiritually poor.

The third option is leave the country to find meaning in some lesser country which you don't understand and can't be at peace because of the inferior standards of living you have grown up to scoff at, and desu your own culture is already colonising every corner of the earth anyway so why are you even running.

>>11841194
>no stronger way to will meaning on a meaningless world
>the only truly free decision you may make

Do you really believe this or are you being rhetorical?

>>11841144

You don't need to reply if you don't have anything meaningful to say, you know?

>>11841210

It still doesn't explain anything. Depression does not appear out of nowhere. Most times there's some explainable source, that's what I want to know about. Depression being a disease doesn't make it like the flu where you can catch it on the bus on the way to work, or else therapy would be pointless.

>>11841225

Well, that's make sense I guess. But does he ever talked in depth about it?

>>11840285
Homosexuality. Repent, brother.

>>11841188
Yikes.

>>11841255
I haven't read everything he wrote but it seems obvious he struggled finding a path to a meaningful life and he was intelligent enough to see how difficult it must be.

>>11841255
>you can catch it on the bus on the way to work
Sounds like the perfect place to catch depression desu

>>11841175
>"It's not like I'm falling in love I just want you to do me no good. You look like you could."

>>11840285
he looks like that dude that's been on SNL for what feels like thirty years

>>11841262
True in Hemingways case

>>11841056
Depression is genetic

>>11841175
damn... updating my tinder bio rn

>>11841255
I’m pretty sure it’s because he had bad acne as a kid

>>11841240
it doesn't matter who I am, what matters is my post
go on reddit if you want to know my biography before replying to something I say, you'll be able to check post histories and shit there

>>11841152
>starkly realistic view of the world and themselves
Actually it's the exact opposite. Depression distorts absolutely everything

>the best writers tend to be chronic depressives
Not true at all

>>11841372
Lol ok man

Basically every great writer had serious bouts of depression, I’d say it’s 70-80% depressives at the top

>>11840285
Similar to artists, writers are known to correlate significantly with mental illness, specifically clinical depression, bipolar disorder, and alcoholism.

Writing is inherently lonely work. Try writing a 300 page book in a crowded club with noise and people talking and constantly interrupting your train of thought. It can get depressing to see rejection after rejection and nobody valuing your work, all for peanuts unless you're one of the lucky ones.

You must stay hunched over your desk day or night, toiling away in existential quietude, puzzling out the deepest mysteries and pain of the human experience. Doesn't sound cheery does it?

>>11840285
is that sheen

>>11841372
name me five 'great' fiction writers who had lives of faultless optimism

>>11841407
>if you're not depressed you must be a blind optimist!
never realized that 90% of humanity suffers from depression. That's a lot of great authors, wow

>>11841415
I was making a point about writers being full in emotion on both ends you twit

>>11841100
Thanks, mate

>>11841255
>Depression does not appear out of nowhere
Debatable. It was likely genetic for DFW. Some people do just become depressed.

>>11841268
Let's unpack this...

>>11840285
“I’m anxious and disconnected from other people and society. I dislike this anxiety and disconnection, but there is also something profound about it. I’m going to seek some answers to it by mining the wisdom of the ages.”

>reads a million books
>comes back into society

“I’m even more anxious and disconnected than I was before! What I thought would provide me with answers has only given rise to more questions, and now I cannot help but see even the other spiritually sensitive and discontent people of my age as fundamentally naive about their malaise. But at least I am now very articulate about this anxious alienation, which I understand in some details. Maybe I can overcome it, and in a way that clarifies it for other people, perhaps leading them out of it, by writing! At the very least, I’ll get famous and rich for writing, and then the gap that has grown between me and others will be bridged over by wealth and fame, so I can still be my alienated self, and yet be celebrated for it by the masses from whom I am disconnected!”

>spends years writing
>returns to society

“Not only am I not famous, not wealthy, and fundamentally misunderstood by even the most literate people, but I am more isolated and anxious than ever, because I have spent so much time trying to bridge the gap between myself and people by fleeing people into solitude, and so much time trying to conquer anxiety by keeping it close that I have become besotted with it, and am incapable of feeling anything else. This world appears to me as a strange, absurd dream, populated by ghosts who fill me with terror and mindless chattering mouths who fill me with disgust. I shall never touch another in the way I always needed to. I shall never be at home in the world. I shall always be frightened and alone.”

>eats the business end of a Remington

>>11841625
lmao maybe instead of reading like fags, they should have hit the gym and assfucked some fat latina bitches

>>11841658
>fat latina bitches
Pleb taste, t b h senpai.

>>11841625
Ernest scarred stupid.

>>11841056
>Depression isn't hereditary, there has to be a starting point, a childhood trauma, some crisis in life
the fact that you think either of these things are true is just sad. Please inform yourself

>>11841133
At some level, Infinite Jest was an exploration of why so many people of Wallace's age and social background ended up depressed or even killing themselves. On the surface level, there is nothing immediately obvious about what would make such a person depressed, but the multitude of social, cultural, and economic explored throughout the novel are, I believe, his own attempt at coming to terms with the philosophical reasons for his own depression when he felt like he didn't have any good reason. Of course, this is explored further in The Pale King as well, or at least what he managed to write of it.

Basically, there are many reasons a person can be depressed: a chemical imbalance in the brain, or a reaction to existential angst, or similar metaphysical rather than material concerns. It is not merely enough to simply consider a person's outward life circumstances to conclude if their mental state 'makes sense' or is 'justified' somehow.

Because if you stay inside writing all day you don't get the Social Exercise you need, if you don't see flesh and blood human beings, your brain thinks your alone and sees no sense in living.

>>11842024
In Hemingway's case it was obviously genetic in some way. Like 7 members of his family killed themselves, including his highly successful father and daughter

>>11841056
>Depression isn't hereditary
Nigger what

>>11841757
I'm 88 and what is this?

>>11842173
You're 14.

>>11840306
Mostly musicians and authors commit suicide. Think there's a connection?

>>11842206
Poverty, drug addiction, alcoholism, the ridicule of one's peers, the list goes on.

>>11841056
The part about Kate Gompert in Infinite Jest rally made me think he was writing it from his own experiences. It's all in his writing

>>11841255
But therapy IS pointless. I've never met a man who reccomends it after trying it.

>>11841133
Being well off doesn't mean you can't get depressed. Depression doesn't just affect those don't get what they want.

>>11842238
True. I was pressured into it for a while and it was a complete waste of time.

Fear of getting old and needing people to take care of you

>>11841774
He is mostly right. Even people genetically predisposed don't become depressed without a catalyst.

>>11842245
>>11842238
Sessions with a good psychoanalysts can be life changing but so rare are they you basically have to be one or be rich

>>11842268
The catalyst can just be life itself. Even mundane situations like going to the grocery story like DFW talked about.

>>11842285
The top 1% of anything is amazing, yes.

>>11841175
urrg

>>11842299
No not really.

We live in a society...

>>11841097
if you start taking an anti-depressant, then stop, and then try and go back to it you'll have usually developed a tolerance to it and they wont work this time
but, it is what >>11841125 this guy said

the anti-depressant he was on was a 'dirty' anti-depressant, so it had some unpleasant side effects... BUT it did stop him from killing himself... so... yknow

my question is why so many authors wait until middle-age or later to kill themselves... how many potential great authors gave up too early so we never got to see their work?

>>11841303
jason sudeikis?

>>11841056
>Depression isn't hereditary,

>>11840285
In Hemingway's case, it was because of gender dysphoria.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/07/03/hemingway-the-sensualist

>>11842445
>how many potential great authors gave up too early so we never got to see their work?
me

>>11842445
>>11842675
In my case, you're getting my work —because— I gave up on life.

old and useless

>>11841149
Well put

>>11840285
People commit suicide all the time, and most of them are not even voracious readers. Why is the idea of an author committing suicide so mystifying?

>>11840285

No only good authors kill themselves.

Things that make a good author:
>social isolation
>drug use
>depression
>being a neet and reading all day
>poverty
>experience in war
>strife in general
>stoicism
>neuroticism

Things that makes for mediocre authors:
>hedonism
>easy lives
>melancholy
>nihilism
>social media
>active social lifestyles

100% of modern authors fall into the later, even if just because you have to be social to gain notoriety and get published.

>>11841056

Depression can be triggered by something as hard to notice like parental neglect or an existential crisis.

>>11842248
just enlist and be SF

>>11842238

Unironically recommend good will hunting for a decent depiction of therapy. The relationship that you have with the therapist is by far the most important, and most impactful thing. But it's not easy to find the right person.

>>11842245

You have to actually want to do it 100%. If you aren't committed to the work and don't desire change then nothing can happen.

they realized that writing is an escape from reality and telling the truth makes you an asshole

>make great work of art
>everyone expects being in your presence to be magical
>constantly disappoint people
>can never express real feelings to people you love because your version of honesty requires hours of percolation, and even then it’s only a representation of the truth
>everyone thinks you’re a liar because they think you have answers that you couldn’t possibly
>constantly compare yourself to other artists even though you know it’s a made-up hierarchy
>since greatness is arbitrary, anyone could dislike you at any given moment, or realize you’re a fraud
>kill self because it’s the only completely honest action

>>11842238
Howard Stern

Get rekt retard

>>11841397
>It can get depressing to see rejection after rejection and nobody valuing your work, all for peanuts unless you're one of the lucky ones.

Basically this, to make it worse, the lucky ones are just common enough that becoming a successful author doesn't sound completely absurd like becoming a successful philosopher.

Different values as well, philosophers and poets (generally) support each other more than prose authors precisely because they are so isolated from any mainstream notion of success as well as their work being able to be judged on consistent criteria (for poetry with meter and rhyme at least), there are no consistent standards for prose, and so even a "great" writer can often lack the respect and support of his equally "great" peers.

>>11841625
>Remington
Pro Tip: if you're going to 'splode your melon, at least use a better shotty. Even a Mossberg is affordable on a buget.
Kill youself with class.

>>11842248
I would have taken care of him.

>>11841056
Depression, meaning Clinical Depression, is more similar to a physical illness that you might think.
Of course I don't have an exhausting answer to it, but it's similar to suffer from allergy. Your immune system reacts abnormally to some external stimulus. The thing that starts the allergic reaction is not the cause of your suffering: it's just a trigger to something wrong with your body. So as it might look absurd to an uneducated observers to see someone dying for the stinging of bee, it usually looks absurd as well ppl killing themselves without strong reasons to do so.

>>11840285
The real question is: Why do unstable and needy people feel attracted towards the arts?

Answer: Because they seek validation and think it will make them whole.

Spoiler: It does not.

Is there truly something deeper and profound about being a depressed creative or are we trying to make ourselves feel better about our own isolation and angst?

ore no daiori

>>11845492
t. depressed stemfag

>>11845723
"A psychiatrist could help. There's a good man in Albany."
Finnerty shook his head. "He'd pull me back into the center, and I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out there on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center." He nodded, "Big, undreamed-of things--the people on the edge see them first.”

-Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano

The authors that kill themselves? Well, they're the ones that go over.

>>11842238
>>11842245
>>11842285
I really think you have to go into therapy with the attitude that someone has to change. If you don't have that outlook then it is always doomed to fail.
About a year ago I was a raging ball of intensity, anger and frustration over my life decisions of unhinged womanizing, semi-drug addition and an overall nihilistic attitude towards my family and upbringing and where I had ended up. Then I saw a therapist.

I said to him from the start:
"Look. I'm here cause I need to talk to someone and I don't want it to be easy, I need it to be difficult because otherwise I won't give a shit about you or myself. If you have read the book 'When Nietzsche Wept', I need you to be my Josef Breuer even though I'm just a stupid 25 year old kid and I'm no Nietzsche. Can you be that for me?"
He said, "Yes, if that's what you want then I'll see you next week."

So I went and ever since he's basically hammered out most of my insecurities and disjointed views and illogic out of me. Obviously I'm still a work in progress but I knew something had to change in my outlook and character otherwise I would have ended up in a gutter in Bulgaria with aids or something cause that's how I am: all or nothing.

Just something to reflect upon. If it can happen for me then damn, it can happen for you too.

>>11847830
How have those sessions gone? What is their content like?

>>11841625
I think this is the best description of frame of mind that most people OP is referencing have, and it is eerily relatable

Unironically because they're not buddhists. People develop all kinds of expectations for themselves and how their work is received. If these are not met it can lead to great suffering. The buddhists teach to let go of desire, such as craving praise, and try to enjoy the present moment through meditation. Getting out of your head and into your body is another good tactic for improving your health and well-being.

>>11841194
>Self-destruction is the ultimate act of self-actualization
It is also a great sacrifice and admission of defeat. It is vainglory as it believes to know enough to use such a mechanism.
In fact, I'd say the only reason to kill yourself is to escape something. I don't disagree that what one escapes is horrible, but that there are better options.

>>11841056
Looks like Paul Rudd

>>11843561
Why are socially impaired people more likely to be skilled authors? More free time to contemplate life?

>>11848074
See
>>11841625

>>11840802
wrong, negative correlation between IQ and sucide,
cant link paper here sadly

>>11840285
This person >>11840306 has the right idea. Would you analyze yourself and society if you lived a happy go lucky life? Ofcourse not, prefering to live in a world that is seemingly acceptive of you is good, troubling it with self-doubt and critical thinking would be self-sabotage.

The whole reason some writers are remembered is because they saw society in a whole different manner, sprouting from the fact they questioned it in the first place because of hardships of any kind.