/lit/ - Literature

>>11739929
The real redpill is accepting that something like BNW is basically as good as it gets for humanity. Our universe does not allow for a 'true utopia' without downsides and if you resist the society of BNW as overly sterile and organised you would have to accept large amounts of unnecessary death and suffering and war and illness.

Of course spoiled white people call BNW dystopic because they already live in a safe and sterile world. But for the starving masses it would be a great improvement.

>>11739947
The people in Brave New World have had their humanity taken from them. How would you like to be stunted mentally before your even born, or to mindlessly repeat slogans instead of independent thought? The world functions well, but at the expense of the people, taking away the point and degrading these people to the state of animals. Brave New World is not good for humanity, it destroys it.

>>11740041
>How would you like to be stunted mentally before your even born, or to mindlessly repeat slogans instead of independent thought?
As shown in the novel people who are born into it like it very much. The problem is people like you who are still spooked.
Let me ask you, do you think anti-depressants rob people of their humanity? What about pain killers? Medicine? Where do you draw the line?

>>11739947
does a society where 99% of people are mindless working slaves that work one single job for 20 years before they are cremated while really sound any good to you?

the remainder of people that are capable of intellectual thought are completely dependant on the most primal chemical and sexual stimulation with no chance of satisfaction through self-realization or any sort of innovation to drive thought or society forward.

the state should not impose a tyranny of happiness on the people because removing the freedom and agency of someone's mind is literally the most foul and sick thing you could ever imagine someone to do, regardless if their intentions are to make someone 'happy' or not.

it is a dystopia beyond normal bounds of a dystopia and that is what makes it so incredibly fucking awful. I'd rather we go extinct as a species than ending up with a global civilization like the one depictedin bnw

>>11739929
If you live in the US, you are living the real life BNW.

Huxley is cool, im reading his book The Perennial Philosophy, right now.

Wanting Seed is better

>>11740109
Because they're brainwashed to accept their lot in life

>>11740041
You're describing civilisation or even culture in general. Everyone is shaped and indoctrinated by the society they're born into. The reason BNW makes people feel icky because it makes it so obvious, while we try to pretend we're autonomous individuals not subjected to such forces.

>>11740216
>does a society where 99% of people are mindless working slaves that work one single job for 20 years before they are cremated while really sound any good to you?
Sounds like today, except it's 50 years of work and we are not conditioned to be happy with our lot in life unlike them, so we suffer from all kinds of mental illnesses and are a lot more miserable.

>the remainder of people that are capable of intellectual thought are completely dependant on the most primal chemical and sexual stimulation with no chance of satisfaction through self-realization or any sort of innovation to drive thought or society forward.
Again, sounds much like we are today, only the drugs are horrible, dangerous and badly regulated, the sex less safe and well-integrated leading to tremendous suffering in the forms of disease, shaming, unwanted offspring, povery et cetera. For the select few that actually require self-realisation (a vague hippie phrase with no real meaning) or innovation (something only useful as long as there are problems left) there is always Edgy Island in BNW where all the misfits can do as they please. Everyone who for some reason is unhappy and wants to be so is welcome to it.

>the state should not impose a tyranny of happiness on the people because removing the freedom and agency of someone's mind is literally the most foul and sick thing you could ever imagine someone to do, regardless if their intentions are to make someone 'happy' or not.
You never had freedom and agency in the first place. We're all shaped and manipulated by our societies to become what they expect from their citizens. The difference is the level of efficiency. In BNW maybe 1% or less is miserable with their fate, while with our half-arsed indoctrination programs a much larger part, if not the majority, is unhappy with their lot in life.

>it is a dystopia beyond normal bounds of a dystopia and that is what makes it so incredibly fucking awful. I'd rather we go extinct as a species than ending up with a global civilization like the one depictedin bnw
It's only dystopic because you project your culture onto the people in it, which they are not part of. It's like thinking Islamic society is dystopic because it's not a good place for a progressive liberal atheist promiscuous drunk.

Not all people share the set of preconceptions you have internalised and without those cultural preconceptions a lot of the objections are moot.

>>11740281
They are brainwashed to enjoy their lot in life. We are merely brainwashed to accept it even if we don't enjoy it.

>>11740447
Let me guess, you're a relativist.

>>11740506
Does it make you a relativist to think human beings can thrive under other systems than 21st century liberalism?

>>11740447
so in other words, the failure of the modern world is a lack of truly effective propaganda and a free access to mass information. otherwise we'd just be as """"happy"""" as the """"people"""" in BNW.

>>11739929
still living in 2015?

>>11740610
> the failure of the modern world is a lack of truly effective propaganda and a free access to mass information.
It's a lack of harmony between people and the society they're living in. There's more than propaganda to the BNW approach, people are also behaviourally conditioned and physically adapted to their future roles in life.

Think of it like how sheep dogs are both bred and trained for their function, as are hunting dogs for theirs. It's the combination between nature and nurture that allows them to thrive in their niche.

>>11740447
>We are merely brainwashed to accept it even if we don't enjoy it.
you are maybe

>>11740783
Don't mistake a large cage for freedom. Just because you can choose between being a plumber or a carpenter doesn't mean you're not confined by society.

>>11740794
oh yeah I forgot that we live in a society

There is nothing noble about the world in BNW

If you strip people of any hope of nobility, is life worth living?

>>11740447
Youre an idiot. And you dont deserve to know why

>>11740801
i contend that we dont actually live in a society at all

>>11740820
you aren't maybe

>>11740735
>dog analogy about humans
wew

>>11739929
The kids in BNW bone like crazy.
He's not very traditional IMO.

>>11740826
you aren't either, it's a matrix of predation, with some people aware of that and others not. society is a meme. maybe a tribe is a society

>>11740801
Exactly, the things that people abhor in BNW are things that are present in our own lives as well, but we are so used to them we generally can't see them.

>>11740818
Mysterious. I bet that's a great argument you're hiding from me.

>>11740812
>"My dear young friend," said Mustapha Mond, "civilization has absolutely no need of nobility or heroism. These things are symptoms of political inefficiency. In a properly organized society like ours, nobody has any opportunities for being noble or heroic. Conditions have got to be thoroughly unstable before the occasion can arise. Where there are wars, where there are divided allegiances, where there are temptations to be resisted, objects of love to be fought for or defended–there, obviously, nobility and heroism have some sense. But there aren't any wars nowadays.

If you want nobility you have to deliberately design society in such a way that there is a lot of unnecessary suffering so that you can swoop in and try to prevent some small part of it to feel good about yourself. Deliberately making sure crops fail and then going there and handing out rice, for example. It's the height of narcissism and cruelty, to want there to be misery so that you can feel pride partially solving it, but never wholly, because that would rob you from your dramatic role.

>>11740841
Huxley disagrees with you in his essays fyi..

>>11740831
Both are self-domesticated creatures to a degree, it's an apt analogy.

>>11740850
For maybe a small portion of the population who fell into a bad pill regimen maybe, but there isn't anything like soma in our present day society.

>>11739947
>spoiled white people
Guaran-fucking-tee you are from some ultra leftist urban center

>>11740850
Yes, but the whole point of the human condition is that even if you make a "utopia" the structure of reality is such that each person experiences a certain amount of necessary suffering. If you brainwash people into docility, you remove their ability to endure that suffering with nobility and to better themselves as individuals

>>11740873
I'm not, but it's always spoiled white people who have romantic ideas about suffering. It's never the third world trash heap urchin or sex slave or malnourished sweatshop worker or civilian stuck in a war thorn city without clean drinking water. If you gave those people the choice of either their current fate or a clean world without epidemics and starvation and violence and other danger they would gladly take it, even if that world isn't exciting and filled with extreme emotion and challenges.

In fact they do gladly take it, they're all scrambling to get to a Scandinavian apartment with a welfare check, supermarkets and plenty of television.

>>11740878
It's better to endure some minor discontent without nobility than to have a terrible life just because there it offers room for improvement and allows for display of character.

Real, severe suffering is way worse than making a display of how well you handle it is good.

>>11740909
Yeah people with abysmally low average IQs would happily sell their souls to trade bad living conditions for somewhat better ones you've really sold me, Mr. Mond.

>>11740909
absolutely d y s g e n i c

>>11740924
So do people with high IQs, otherwise all the smart Westerners would be moving to Africa so they can suffer with nobility instead of living safe and sheltered lives.

>>11740939
People who have attained comfortable living conditions would prefer not to give up those comfy living conditions if there's no pressing need for them to do so.

You are a fucking retard who doesn't even know how retarded he is.

>>11740923
I am firmly against severe suffering. Also, if you think I was referring to a /display/ of nobility, you miss my point entirely

>>11740958
I'm not using Dirk Gently, I think the white wrinkledicks ran Reagan 2

>>11740962
don't worry, this is a common reaction to those who try to engage with my comments

>>11739947
Disgusting neolib

>>11740949
>People who have attained comfortable living conditions would prefer not to give up those comfy living conditions if there's no pressing need for them to do so.
Exactly. And since society is ever moving towards more comfort and convenience and no one wants to take step backwards, it's easy to see how we are going towards some type of BNW-like scenario, with the smart people actually leading and designing it. It's not like intelligent people know better than to seek out comfort and convenience. They're the ones facilitating it.

>>11740958
I guess what I'm missing is the inherent value of nobility even where it is not necessary as a trait. It would be like trying to maintain aggression in a society where conflict is no longer needed.

>>11740972
Stay mad that we no longer have plague and public hangings, reactionary. The world is getting better whether you want it to or not!

>>11740995
That doesn't mean it's a good thing lmao, you're basically saying "because we are currently moving in this trajectory it is good"

>>11740995
I guess it comes down to the question "what is the point of life?"

>>11740447
>You're describing civilisation or even culture in general. Everyone is shaped and indoctrinated by the society they're born into.
Cheap relativism, read more you absolute moron

>>11741008
It is 'good' in the sense that it is what the vast majority of people prefer.

It's not even merely humans, other animals also choose the easy way wherever possible.

Laziness or choosing the easy way (aka optimising for efficiency) is pretty universal and no romanticising of hardship will turn that around.

>>11741015
I'm not saying there isn't a spectrum of the degree to which people are indoctrinated. But being half-indoctrinated leads to a worse life than being fully so, which is one of the lessons of BNW.

>>11741046
You noghead there's a difference between "wanting to live comfortably" and "absolutely soulless decadence."

And even if 90% of the population DID want to live like mindless automotans powered only by drugs and sex what are you planning to do about the remaining 10% huh? What do you plan to do with the Savages of this world who place value in those abstract concepts you so callously dismiss?

>>11741055
>But being half-indoctrinated leads to a worse life than being fully so, which is one of the lessons of BNW.
Ah yes, the woes of having a big brain in this society of soulless automatons. I do know that feeling very well myself.

>>11741076
Pretty much everyone is merely half-indoctrinated in current society which is why so many people are miserable.

>>11741065
>You noghead there's a difference between "wanting to live comfortably" and "absolutely soulless decadence."
But where do you draw the line? Antibiotics? Contraceptives? Recreational drugs? Video games? Heated floors? Air-conditioning?

Where would you say 'and now society is comfortable enough, we don't need any more comfort'? For most people there isn't such a line, and we keep aspiring to more comfort and convenience, so every age looks like 'absolutely soulless decadence' to people from an earlier century, which is why old people are always bitching about the youth being decadent and ruined and have been doing so for thousands of years.

>And even if 90% of the population DID want to live like mindless automotans powered only by drugs and sex what are you planning to do about the remaining 10% huh? What do you plan to do with the Savages of this world who place value in those abstract concepts you so callously dismiss?
Did you read BNW? They have special places for the edgy people to be edgy to their heart's content.

>>11741096
>where do you draw the line
Variation of the rainbow fallacy, just because the line between decadence and comfort is blurry doesn't mean it doesn't exist. U r rarted kys.

>>11741130
Being blurry is one thing, not being able to point it out at all is another.

>>11741141
Genuinely sorry you can't tell the difference between air conditioning and having humans mass produced in vats and deliberately conditioned to have no creative spark and to only take joy in meaningless sex and heavy drug use.

>>11741719
So you drawn the line at AC? What about gene editing? Would curing heritable diseases go too far for you? What about curing mental illnesses? Would a world without clinical depression be too dystopian for you?

>>11741006
Clearly public hangings need to come back

>>11741006
Bubonic plague is still a thing and there is literally nothing wrong with public hangings.

>>11741719
What good is a system that only hypothetically allows for creativity and personal freedom? What good is it if the majority of its inhabitants are systematically dissuaded or even barred from exercising those facets of life?
Lofty philosophy is fine and dandy when you have big bucks, but the range of people who enjoy is astronomically small. And since the system currently runs on mulching the majority of people, why not just instate something like the world state?

>>11739947
>BNW is basically as good as it gets for humanity.
By what metric? From my perspective, this is equivalent to simply killing all humans. If "nobody can suffer because they're drugged" is good, then obviously "nobody can suffer because they're dead" is better. It's permanent.

>>11742455
If anything we need more public hangings

>>11741967
>>11743044
U r rarted

>>11740447
if you genuinely think that there's no actual notable difference between today's society and the medically enforced brain-mutilation of BNW then I suggest the following:

a) Read the news once in a while perhaps, try to get a view of how the world looks.
b) Talk to someone about something, anything.
c) Perhaps read something.

>>11740109

So than you would argue that comfort and progress is more important than free will?

>>11740834
But that's presented as a bad thing. People are encouraged to indulge in mindless hedonism and avoid any real relationships. I think you missed the point of Brave New World.

>>11741967
it dumb ass shit like that were to happen they would just edit everything out of the human mind that was "problematic" in order to turn us to better slaves to the system
>n-no they wouldnt, my government loves me!