/lit/ - Literature

>>11705241
Calvinism or gtfo

>>11705241
>preferably from primary sources/church fathers.
The Church Fathers is like 16,000,000 words worth of primary sources. A fraction of that is historical material, and there are a few total church histories scattered in there. Good luck sorting all that out lol

>>11705258

>>11705258
this. /lit/ is a calvinist board

>>11705241
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

>>11705258
>>11705298
Hello brothers :^)

>>11705324
>tfw Cromwell is roasting in Hell for all eternity

If there were ever a truly evil man in history, it's him.

>>11705329
>tfw predestined to lead an army of zealots to victory against an overbearing monarch with foreign Catholic sympathies

If there were ever a truly based and Puritanpilled man in history, it's him.

>>11705241
i feel like either is acceptable. the main thing is the real presence. they're just both autistic about theology in slightly different ways. orthodoxy is pretty cucked though and has been since forever pretty much. also catholicism is way more aesthetic

>>11705329

He inspired one of the best lines of "The Devil's Dictionary" though:

ABRIDGE, v.t. To shorten.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for
people to abridge their king, a decent respect for the opinions of
mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
them to the separation.

- Oliver Cromwell

Cromwell probably didn't have that keen a sense of humor though.

>>11705258
origen eschatology or gtfo

>>11705376
>orthodoxy is pretty cucked though
Are you retarded? Look at the things your pope says vs the patriarch. The pope literally shills for refugees and heretical bullshit, meanwhile the Orthodox Church condemns modernity and western values.

>>11705441
the orthodox church has been getting fucked in the ass by muslims for 1000 years. the catholic church hasn't even been cucked for 100

>>11705445
>
Please explain how Orthodoxy is currently fucked by muslims. Your argument didn't hold true in 1453 nor will it now. Catholicism is much worse.

>>11705452
Who cares who is more cucked/uncucked? Shouldn't you guys be worried about which is true? Orthodoxy seems to be way more consistent and changes only over a long time, though I'm certainly no expert on either.

>>11705521
He was the one who brought it up first. Regardless, in that sense Orthodox is more true because the church itself is way more hardline on modern issues and sticks to the commandments. Catholic church is questionable at best in this regard.

>>11705241
Catholic. Here's some sources from the Church Fathers that support the papacy:

>St. Irenaeus of Lyons (130AD-202AD), Against Heresies (estimated 175AD-185AD), Bk. III, Ch. III
“Since, however, it would be very tedious… to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere,” (Bold inserted).
>For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere,

>St. Clement of Alexandria (Who is the Rich Man that is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).
[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28].
>[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples,


>Origen (Commentaries on John 5:3 [A.D. 226-232]).
And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail left only one epistle of acknowledged genuineness.

>Cyprian (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source."

>St. Augustine (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear “I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven."

Obviously, there is more.

>>11705558
Aren't all of these quotes taken before the Roman Archbishop, the pope, changed the Nicene Creed by adding the filioque? The conflict over authority is the reason why the Great Schism happened, right? So what specifically makes the Pope infallible and above the other bishops originally

>>11705241
the way you posed this question, you will end up catholic, maybe mitigate and become anglican/episcopalian.
sadly for you, the answer is ORTHODOXY

>>11705324
Based and purepilled

>>11705241
Catholic. The Catholic baptism is transferable credit if you convert to Orthodox.

>>11705452
>Please explain how Orthodoxy is currently fucked by muslims.
Try visit Constantinople, Antioch and Alexandria

>>11705720
the nicene creed literally says "one baptism"

>>11705258
Enjoy your food with no seasoning.

>>11705258
calvinism is just the most cucked form of gnosticism there is. if there is no free will, then god is just straight up evil and you worship him regardless. you're literally worshiping the evil demiurge at that point

>>11705746
>t. destined to go to hell
lol sucks to be you

>>11705705
The Council of Nicea was in 325, other than Augustine, these quotes are 100-150 years before it.

Take Irenaeus for example. Wrote in 175AD and seems to support the supremacy of Rome.

Apostolic iconoclast Arian adoptionism.

>>11705747
>Be God
>Destine people to go to hell
Honestly, of all the heresies, this has to be the most disgusting thing I have read about, it's sickening to the point that it makes me want to puke.

>>11705746
>God
>evil
No matter which Branch of Christianity is true this should strike you as an impossible and retarded idea. Read Job again.

Crazy that the dysgenic hordes from /v/ and /pol/ nuked this board’s IQ so fast that a guy asking which church he should his beliefs should conform to sparks “”serious”” “”debate””

>>11706082
I haven't been on /lit/ in about a year and also I think you made a few mistakes writing this. Could I get the quick rundown on what the fuck you're trying to say? Did something major happen here recently? I have no idea what you're saying but it looks like it could be worth knowing.

>>11706093
We have at least 3 threads a week like this. Zoomers memeing themselves into thinking they believe in god when really what they want is a mask of authority to hide opinions behind. Asking 4chan which religion you should follow is about the dumbest thing I can imagine, and a sign that OP lacks both decision making ability, and spine to back up his beliefs

>>11706104
I heard that /lit/ had taken something like a religious turn. Beats women-hate and John Green-posting.

>>11706111
It beats politics and economic theory too

Just read volumes 2 and 3 of Copleston's History of Philosophy

>>11705832
Amen, however I believe, and hope that the guy was trolling. However there are people in the world who seriously believe what he wrote.

>>11705749
But the church was ruled by council, even in the days of the apostles, and as far as I know, The Council of Nicea is considered legitimate.

Check out Living Stream Ministries. Catholicism is the Christian equivalent of the same phariseeism that Jesus opposed. Matthew 15:9 comes to mind.
Calvinism is needlessly complex and its doctrines blatantly undermine the Gospel.
Pray for guidance and I'll pray for you.

>>11706763
You smels like a troll.

>>11707352
I'm not, but of course you've only got my word on the matter.

>>11706763
>the same phariseeism that Jesus opposed
Incorrect. What Christ opposed was the carnality of the Pharisees, neatly summarized in the attached image.

>>11707439
I really don't mean to be insulting but I feel like my own position is bolstered by that image. Obviously I have a subjective perception and experience of Catholicism, but that's where I'm at on the matter.

>>11706742
Yes; I never denied that. I will add though, in councils (when defining dogma) the Bishop of Rome holds supremacy.
As St. Irenaeus says
>For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [Church of Rome, the Roman Episcopate], on account of its pre- eminent authority,
>pre-eminent authority
>An authority that surpasses all other bishopric authorities in a very distinguished way.

>>11707455
>>11707455
I think your subjective impressions are leading you astray, since Catholic observances themselves take on the spiritual meaning and import that the Pharisees denied (that is the meaning of the Cross), and are fundamentally directed at honoring and giving glory to God.

>>11706763
If you think Christianity should be simple or that it is simple, then you are a very, very dangerous individual...

(not a Calvinist btw)

Get off of this God-forsaken board and read

Ante-Nicene Fathers (all of them, damn it!)
Eusebius
Epiphanius (for lols)

>>11705365
this
god bless

You know what? Fuck it. This thread has unironically inspired me to begin reading the New Testament right now after putting it off for about 3-4 years.

>>11706077
suffering and evil is caused by sin which is a result of free will. if there is no free will, then god just makes us suffer for no reason. this would make god pretty fucking evil, which is why calvinism is retarded

>>11707981
Glad to hear it, friend. The Gospels are rad. Each of them brings something different to the table, whether it's Matthew's connection to Jewish prophecy or Mark's quick action or Luke's care for Mary or John's mysticism.

>>11707483
I'm sure not all head figures agree with St. Irenaeus though.

>>11705241
Anabaptist

>>11708237
There's a consistency being held pre-Nicea

>>11707981
nice!

Eusebius

>>11705721
The difference is that Orthodoxy, while it's main patriarchs are located in cities which have been politically taken over by Muslims, actually maintains it's internal traditions while Catholics allow all sorts of apostasy (according to their own internal logic) to occur during their mass.

>>11706742
God speaks through the mouth of Saint Peter.

>>11705258
>being a Calvinist who believes in pre-destination instead of a Lutheran who believes that by faith and good acts only may anybody who is willing ascend to Heaven

Don't forget the newest addition to the syllabus of church history. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò demanding Pope Francis to resign for protecting pederest Archbishops and exposing the gay mafia that runs Francis's Vatican.

Viganò's full letter detailing the Pope's cover up and naming the predatory homosexual priests:
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4784141/TESTIMONYXCMVX-XENGLISH-CORRECTED-FINAL-VERSION.pdf

Commentary:
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2018/08/explosive-former-nuncio-to-us-pope.html

>>11708423
>>11708786
>I will give you the keys, not the church
Peter's words in his day may have been considered infallible, but nowhere does it imply that therefore the Roman Bishop position was infallible.
The Bishop in Rome was considered the first among equals, but he was certainly not the only voice that mattered, otherwise there would be no reason for a council or other bishops.

>>11708009
Free will defense can't even account for natural evil unless you posit retribution for original sin which itself is an evil that the free will defense cannot account for. Free will or no, it's a pickle no matter how you slice it.

>>11709939
>God chose me to speak through my mouth.
>Feed my sheep, Peter.
>Whatever you bind and loose on Earth shall also be bound and loosed in Heaven.

>>11709970
Still doesn't say his word is infallible, only that he should be the lead, but if it actually is supposed to mean that his word is infallible, that doesn't necessarily pass on to every Bishop of Rome.

>>11709977
>>God chose me to speak through my mouth
Wow, it sure sounds like papal infallibility to me, are you sure it's not?

>>11709984
How does that sound like infallibility, not only for Peter, but for every one to come into his position? What's the point of multiple bishops and a council then?

>>11710002
Well, when God speaks, it's normally always infallible...

>>11710008
>God chose me (Peter) to speak through my (Peter's) mouth
I'd have to see the whole quote to believe God is speaking through him, that section doesn't show it. Even so, doesn't mean all Bishops of Rome afterwards also became infallible, only Peter.

>>11710017
Alexandria and Antioch are also Petrine sees and Peter is rebuked by Paul in Galatians 2.

>>11710008
What about allegories!

Ignore the memes. All arguments against the catholic church apply equally to the Eastern churches, since the Roman church is nothing more than the biggest of the apostolic churches. They believe the same things. As far as I know, even the sacraments of one are recognized as valid by the other. All Christians strive for ecumenicalism and the separation of the apostolic churches is only an accident of distance and history. If the catholic church turns you off, you won't like the autocephalous churches either. Just think of the pope as something like an Orthodox archbishop with a billion-member flock.

>>11705441
So you're a pol-tier personality too afraid to abandon Christianity, even though you hate Christianity. Got it. There's really no other reason you would have written this.

>>11705441
>That pic
Literally all of those things happened.

So who is going to be the next Pope?

>>11711202
Francis is the last papal claimant, inshallah

>>11705832
God is all-knowing and all-powerful. By definition God knew that there will be sinners and people who repent, and the existence of sinners, or lack thereof, is an extension of God's will upon the world. We cannot defy God, which is why it is possible for those which have been blessed by the Holy Spirit which God has granted, to repent, and impossible for the others. Those who do not repent have been damned, and God knew this. He is not evil, merely carrying out his work and plan for the world, which involves gradually working through humanity's inherently sinful nature.

>>11707514
One of the most beautiful things about Christianity is its simplicity and accessibility. That doesn't mean we don't have standards and principles, of course.

>>11708786
Hey what's the webpage?

Bump

>>11711924
it really isn't simple. I understand you are saying it's simple for the sake of supporting Christianity, but nothing is simple other than God (Divine simplicity, not your colloquial term).

Besides, I genuinely think we do damage to Christianity and to Christ by calling it and Him simple. The mystery of God is ineffable. The intricacies of Christianity, prophecies, OT/NT typology, the nature of Christ, the teachings of Christ are not simple. Loving—as a sacrifice—, denying Satan, affirming God fully, being perfect is so difficult to access. Of course it sounds simple—and it's meant to sound as such—when Christ says "go and be perfect," but the inner machinations of Christ's mind, heart, and words are unbelievably complex. Christianity is not simple and it is not easy. It is the enigma of enigmas and the most arduous task called to man.

>>11711237
He'll be gone soon.

>>11705241
You should get Philip Schaff's History of the Church. It's an excellent review of the Christian past and has most of the original writings of the early church theologians at the end of each book, so you can examine the author's conclusion for yourself.