/lit/ - Literature

No

>>11695359
art is when the (f)art is taken out of art!

>>11695359
Daytripper
Planetes
Planescape: Torment

Genuine art in "low" culture is rare, but it exists.

>>11695370
Planetes is pretty good for a manga but it's not exactly high art

>>11695359
Subahibi
Serial Experiments Lain
Don’t know about Western comics, some French academics like Tintin but I wasn’t too impressed rereading as an adult.

To me, low culture is usually just entertainment and therefore isn't art. If something from there is impressive, it's only approaching.

Spec Ops: The Line

On one hand it kind of fails the hard mode since it's largely a deconstruction of modern military shooters... but on the other hand, it takes a lot from Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now, and I'd argue gives them a bit of a spin of its own, using gameplay and player participation as means to deliver a message and make us feel new things. I think it counts.

I would argue none of those mediums have produced high art, at least from what I've experienced. For video games, I'd say Silent Hill 2 is the most sophisticated, but really this is only in the context of the medium itself. None of them begin to reach the heights of literature, painting, music, film e.t.c.
>>11695370
What is so special about Planescape? I played through it recently, and it was just well-written fanfiction.

>>11695359
Inio Asano

The Last Of Us :^)

>>11695453
>What is so special about Planescape? I played through it recently, and it was just well-written fanfiction.
It has a setting that rejects traditional fantasy cliches and actually builds a world that feels unique and non-derivative.
And it really does have some neat writing here and there, like the stuff with Dak'kon.

>>11695548
This feels silly, but I do think the ending of that game is quite interesting and subversive - both in the narrative sense that this character who so far has seemed like a fairly cliche Sadman Deadwife morally grey dude actually does the legitimately Bad Thing To Do, and in the formal sense that agency is completely taken away from the play where you'd expect the player to be given the choice as in other, similar games. I've always respected it. It might not be High Art, but it's great, powerful, true writing.

SOMA was a better sci-fi game than most of the shit ive read tb h

There are actually quite a few.

>>11695359
Yes.

>>11695587
yikes

>>11695592
It's really, really good, by any metric of assessing art.

I loathe video games and dismiss them as toys, and likely 99% of comic books are fucking garbage, but on occasion you do find a few decent books.

Since OP's criteria exclude deconstructions, I couldn't mention Boris the Bear or Marshal Law, the latter being probably the best comic ever and one of the most vicious satires in any medium.

>>11695359
Neil Gaiman's The Sandman

>low culture (e.g. comic books
Comics haven't been exclusively low culture since Ernst's Une semaine de bonté. By now there's been a ton of high-art, experimental, hermetic and undeniably artistically boundary-pushing comics, as well as masterfully made "classical" works.
>anime
Studio Ghibli
>video games
They can't produce a "genuine work of art" because they're not art. Nobody is arguing that chess, paintball or lego are art, so I don't see why TBS, FPS games or Minecraft would be.
Not to say that I don't love some games, but I love them because they're great games, not great works of art.

Is there an easier way to spot a pseud than a 20 something edgy tryhard shitting on video games?

Big Questions, Lone Wolf, and there are way more out there.
Tatami Galaxy. Anime does have quite a few examples as well.
I'd say Planescape, but I reckon it is only known for its writing, so, well, can it really be considered a good example of its medium? I'd say some more obscure games might fit the bill.

Also, Shadow of the Colossus is considered a deconstruction? First I heard of that.

>>11695587
>>11695602

McKean art might be good, as it usually is, but Morrison's writing is shallow and stupid as always. It ruins everything about it.

>>11695457

Nah. Asano is my favorite mangaka, but I wouldn't put him there.

>>11695359
The "lowbrow", being unself-conscious and relatively unexamined, can reproduce the subtle tremors of the zeitgeist with better acuity than what is self-consciously cultivated, which is, in some ways, full of stricter and more stifling conventions than . There's more (experimental, vulgar, subversive!) ways to broach the same stories, topics and insights, but any domain of human which sets itself in opposition to what is unsophisticated or 'out of date' becomes myopic - especially when some the most common things are considered the least worthy of attention. Reputation constricts.

French aristocrats in the latter days of the Ancien regime had no problem writing about peasants and bawds and coffee and so on (though whatever sexual trends seem most modern always seem to be in vogue, modern sexuality is just about the aspect of life the literati feel most comfortable writing about) and we've mostly just inherited the subject matter they already made acceptable for cultured bourgeois art centuries ago. But 'literary' writers today still cringe away from the internet or video games or whatever. Important and visceral domains of human activity like (off the top of my head, just an example) espionage are probably off the books because they're too stained by plebbiness. Imagine Ancient Greece with their theatres! The art of city states is so enviable because of how local their subject matter could be without being dominated by a self-conception of inferiority... there was nothing more important "elsewhere" apart from the gods, which were all traceable to real, intimate locations in the Hellenic world. Not subjects or vassals of any foreign empire.

Anyway, what respectable literature can reproduce the shameless juvenile escapism - and the consequently subterranean undergrowth of anxiety and sexual sublimation - present in, say, Hunter x Hunter? It is difficult to reproduce "low" art's oceanic sensation (sunny watery horizon and bottomless black trench - two eternities) in rococo. There's a special array of childish pleasures and childish fears which a "world" based on juvenile whims and fancies can invoke which more mature art can overlook. Is indulging in childish feelings always a 'retreat'? Can't they be felt with authentic interest and examined just as well without the self-consciousness, guilt and learned condescension?

I find it pretty cringe when people try to "elevate" or "reclaim" or vindicate lowbrow things, especially out of some misguided class politics. I don't think elitism is anything to be inherently ashamed of. Middlebrow is what you get when you mix pearls and swine, whether out of mediocrity or moralism. But I like Gundam, and you can't stop me weatcing it... and enjoying it..

I'd say Hotline Miami, but that probably fails hard mode. Somewhat similar to Spec Ops in theme, but does the integration of visuals, audio and gameplay waaaaaaaaaay better.

Also maybe stuff like Journey and Dear Esther.

Compared to what?

All-Star Superman was an absolute joy to read and is sincere.

>>11695715
cringe

>>11695715
Good post.

Silent Hill is better than 99% "horror"

What does /lit/ think of the three mentioned in the OP? I've seen NGE discussed quite a lot (mainly because /a/ only cares about the waifu wars) and I've seen Watchmen discussed once but never Shadow of the Colossus (in my opinion easily the least artistic of the three)
Also what does /lit/ think of Utena, FLCL and LotGH?

>>11695761
LotGH would have been better as a book.
The medium is detrimental imo

>>11695770
You know that it was originally a series of novels, right?

>>11695436
Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now for sœy filled millenials

>>11695359
Tintin. Solid, captivating stories, engaging characters, great humor ranging from situational comedy to slapstick gags and political satire.

>>11695436
That game isn't even good at being a game, let alone anything else

Hunter X Hunter is the most impressive manga of all time, literarily. Containing multiple themes of betrayal, youth, innocence, strength, potential, the evil of man and the beauty within reminiscent of great literature such as Dostoevsky or Shakespeare. As for characters, we can see Hisoka's Ahab to Gon's Ishmael, Chrollo Lucifer as Milton's Satan, Mereum as Enkidu.

Undertale

>>11695565
>It has a setting that rejects traditional fantasy cliches and actually builds a world that feels unique and non-derivative.
I dare you to name a work of fantasy that *doesn't* do this.

Fucking plebs on this board

>>11695677
> artistic means boundary pushing
Go push your asshole's boundary and die of AIDS, you fag.

>>11695359

The real answer is that neither Watchmen or NGE are deconstructions and calling them that just reveals that you're a clickbait youtube video-essay watching pseud

>>11695778
Apocalypse Now is also onions desu

The Runescape quest "Monkey Madness" is easily on par with the likes of Shakespeare in terms of artistic merit.

>>11696053
Apocalypse Now is nearly as good as Heart of Darkness

>>11696060
It misses some of the crucial aspects of HoD (the frame story, emphasis on the act of narration, epistemic poverty, ungraspability of "Kurtz") and also proves Achebe's point of the Congo - "Africa" - being nothing more than an interchangable background for a Western psychologism right.

>>11696103
Achebe is irrelevant, the book isn't even about niggers and there's nothing wrong with that

>>11696041
Which is why I put quotation marks around it, I'm mimicking how video game intellectuals talk.

>>11695359
Nier: Automata
Dark Souls
Persona series

The true end sequence of Nier: Automata made me sob.

Neither is art on the merit of the gameplay alone (arguably some Nintendo games are artful works of gameplay as an experiential artform), but in the worlds they create and the relation between gameplay and lore to create meaning through experience. You have to be able to look past the entertainment and repetition because the artfulness of a video game lies in its subtext and the inter-relation of its parts.

For example with Dark Souls, it starts making sense as art once you analyze it through a Jungian lens (Japan has really gone down the Jung path in terms of artistic meaning in anime and video games). First of all, as everyone has heard from Jordan Peterson these days, the mythological 'Dragon of Chaos' is represented in the Souls series in the ancient dragons that once ruled the grey nothingness that was all things. The abyssal potentiality of pre-conception.

The dying Age of Fire is representative of the contemporary developed world, the Death of God, the descent into unmeaning and unlife, an epidemic of drained libido. You have cthonic or underworld locations such as the Tomb of the Giants, New Londo Ruins, Lost Izalith, Blighttown, Crystal Cave, etc. These represent the Unconscious in various forms: some represent repression of violent passions, of vile depravities, of the death drive, while some are Shadow locales, and so on. You also have areas of the Conscious psyche such as The Duke's Archive, filled with tomes of knowledge, Anor Londo, a once bustling city with a 'sunny' persona hiding a dark ego.

Honestly, one could do a fully fledged monograph on Dark Souls through mythological Jungian analysis. It is highly symbolic, something like a dream, and is representative of a psychic whole in that sense.

Nier: Automata I could go into as well, much in the same vein, though rather than the fully entrenched psycho-mythology of Dark Souls, Nier is more of a meditation on existentialism with a Jungian flare.

Persona has its obvious Jungian influences and far too much to go into.

Nips love their Unconscious. I don't know how one could not see that as art, save for simply being myopic and judging on purely arbitrary grounds. Something so rich in analytical mineability, so generous, cannot be something other than art.

Also same with NGE, it's not 'just' a deconstruction. You need to use Jung to get the art juice out. If you don't into Jung, you just can't into vidya art, and almost vidya art is Japanese. Though not all, I'd still consider some of the classic point-and-clicks and PC RPGs as art.

>>11695370
>>11695375
Planetes is not very good imo

>>11695677
some games are definitely works of art. i think it's possible for something to be a game and art.

>>11696041
Anno literally said that he intended to use NGE to "deconstruct anime" in an interview.

>>11695370
I watched some of the Planetes anime
Didn't see any high art, it was nice to look at but the main character was insufferable and I vaguely remember some silly comedy segments that didn't resonate with me at all, I think everyone was wearing funny animal suits like a mascot and bumping into each other and falling over
Only saw a couple episodes before I stopped though

>>11695359
While I don't know about "art", there are a handful of good stories in all of them.

>>11696148
embarrassing

>>11696227
Oh no, a one word reply, whatever shall I do!

I'll finish by saying that one who cannot find art in places most cannot is not an artist, they are a regurgitator. An artist creates meaning in every encounter they have with a work, regardless of whatever that work is, regardless of if it is even intended to be art or not.

If you can't see deep meaning in the work of the Insane Clown Posse, you will never amount to anything.

>>11695813
>not reading it in French

Final fantasy VI
The music of Marie
punpun

>>11696267
Fucking magnets, amiright?

>>11696053
>>11696060
Apocalypse Now is better, imo. Insofar as you can compare two works in two different mediums.

MORROWIND is too high brow for op. he wouldn't get it.

Providence, by Alan Moore.
Pyongyang, by Guy Delisle
Everything We Miss, by Luke Pearson

Getting Over It

I don't watch anime.

Counter Strike 1.6 to be quite honest. The other game suggestions itt are talking about story or setting.. in that case maybe Fallout 1 or 2

>>11696389
>he can't do a historical genealogy of Juggalos as heirs of Modern Era Circus Culture
>he can't juxtapose ICP as the Shadow of Cirque du Soleil
>he doesn't understand how the Dark Carnival intertwines with Christian Theology

>>11696390
Not at all. Coppola isn’t novel in anyway making Apocalypse Now, it’s a very unremarkable film when it comes to cinematic form.

Berserk

>>11695645
This for comics.

Mawaru Penguindrun for anime.

LISA the painful or Silent Hill 2 for video games.

>>11696444
can you talk a bit about viper the rapper too?

>>11695359
No, but neither does the sphere of middle or high culture contain any genuine pieces of art.

This is the real redpill

Look at soundtracks of old strategy games

Blueberry
Corto Maltese
Works of Moebius
Works of Jodorowsky
Otomo
Hideo Yamamoto
M.Suehiro
Shintaro Kago
Tezuka

Can *something* be art is dilemma of angloniggerdom and their depraved load.

>>11696482
Good thought, some fantastic stuff in there
In my opinion video games themselves are not art though, even if they might include art
Because for a video game to be art I believe you would have to find art in what makes a video game a video game, the gameplay, and nobody seems to be able to or interested in doing that
If you can't find art in the gameplay then making a video game more artful would result in it becoming less and less of a video game (something you can sometimes see when someone explicitly sets out to make an "art game"), hence why I don't think video games are art

>>11695359
>Comic Books
None, maybe save for some Manga. But I don't read those just know that there are many beautiful&cleverly written ones, sometimes even with deep themes.
> anime
From my humble list:
GITS (1995).
Jin-Roh
Monster
Some of Satoshi Kon's stuff
Akira (in terms of visual&audio art only)
maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Kara no Kyoukai. Or maybe it is just me being fan of it.
>Vidya Games
Silent Hill 2
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Pathologic
The Void
Dear Esther (Inb4 walking simulator)
SOMA
Maybe Darkwood, I will tel you when I finish it
And not as much original art as "good at depicting source material/picking up cliche/theme and working from it: Max Payne 1, Mafia, I have No Mouth and I Must Scream, Blade Runner vidya, Deus Ex)

>>11695778

>>11695436
I never understood the wonder at storyline of spec Ops: The line. It surely is kinda remarkable and novel for fps game, and it's not bad, but for me whole gimmick of creating sense of shame in player fails when it doesn't even bother to create illusion of choices&responsibility for them.

>>11695359
Maus, the comics of Thomas Ott, Jason, Moebius. Comics are pieces of art.

I dont consider games an art form so I wont answer for those.

>>11696541
Can you make an art out of conscious action? This is what gameplay is ultimately about.

>>11695359
Why shouldn't it? Neckbeards are capable of sincere feelings, too.

>>11695359
For anime, FLCL comes to mind. Absurdity, sudden shifts in art style, sexual metaphors, verbose monologues, etc.

>>11695548
unironically, I agree; the mise en scene of the game is striking, especially for a game subject to one of the most cliched premises (at least foundationally, like >>11695566 sad 'Sadman Deadwife'+zombie outbreak.

The inclusion of Ellie and the overall ambience and interactions between characters in the narrative (Music, art design, exclusion of choice at critical points but overall a sort of agency in a limited structure)...anyway it's a good game and I'd argue removed from the medium of game and applied to either film or literature it would be unquestionably Good

Arguments that video games can’t be art have always seemed somewhat ridiculous to me, though not because there are games of narrative depth or visual innovation - that’s true, but these things aren’t really the fundamental material of a video game. The real artistic material is what takes place in the players engagement and interaction with the game worlds, their interaction with interlocking systems and the sensualities of movement and feedback that define the game environment. The person who said Counter Strike 1.6 was on the right track. Maps, environments, and competitive rules are creative artistic materials which can be used to create artwork. The low/high culture dichotomy is obviously defunct and has been so for at least 50 years, but if someone wants to argue against the artistic potential of video games they also have to argue against the potential for creative expression on architecture as well as, even more bluntly, the so broadly accepted as to be virtually passé prevalence of relational aesthetics in the ‘high’ art world.

>>11696881
I can understand this argument, though would you not agree that there needs to be a higher dimension or purpose to make them art? A game like CS 1.6 or Tetris - whilst on a technical may be perfect or near perfect - they serve no greater purpose other than to entertain. r me, that cannot constitute art, or at the very least, great art.

>>11696898
for*

>>11696881
videogames can have artistic merit but why do you have to be a meme and make Counter Strike your example instead of talking about something actually interesting like Yume Nikki?

imagine struggling with this question posticycalm

>>11696041
>>11696127
Guys, you're missing a key piece here.
"Deconstruction" as an artistic attempt at using experimental structure in order to create a unique approach to a form of art or a genre is, infact, a literary theory term. NGE, in that sense, uses deconstruction. The fact that X or Y work pieces have been called, in short, "deconstructions" of something, is what led retarded ""nerdy"" sóybóy YouTuber pseuds to abuse the phrase "X is a deconstruction of Y!". It's also why >>11696207 is right.

>>11695359
Mirror's Edge was great as an example of visual art that combined design, computer graphics and music.

>>11695359
idk the only time a video game has ever made me cry i was drunk out of my mind and shed a tear at my total war rts units charging the enemy through arrow fire and sacrificing their lives for the sake of their fatherland because i told them to

>>11696195

It is clear that a painting or a piece of music is art in itself, but I would say games only contain elements that may be artistic, for example music, visuals or story but none of these are tied to the medium of "game" in any sense. I would argue that a game with a good story would be more "art" if it were a book or a film, and visual would be more "art" if they were detached from entertainment completely and only presented as visual art.

Video games are entertainment that can contain elements of beauty and art, like a youtube video can contain someone playing a good song. That does not mean that video games or youtube videos as such are in any way art. In short, the fact that it is contained within a game only hinders the "potential" of the art to be experienced in its most complete form.

>>11695359
how is SotC a deconstruction?
if anything its an epic/tragedy, and quite a good one at that, which i'd say is as high an high art as any

>>11695677
>Studio Ghibli
This is a joke, right?
Every movie is the exact same, boring formula.

>>11695761
Utena - Good show, great characters, atmosphere, and sound design
FLCL - Arguably the most overrated anime in existence. Has zero redeeming qualities and is only liked because manchildren remember watching it on Toonami

>>11696055
Runescape in general has surprisingly tasteful writing. There are so many quests that are masterpieces in that regard.

>>11696987
shut your fucking mandibles, bugman

>>11696898
I think the key to appreciating something like CS as 'art' is expanding the definition of art a bit. It's not necessarily about expression of a poetic image of the world in the way art has often been defined in the past, but rather the creative implementation of a set of rules and environments that create the conditions for a certain kind of interaction and community for their inhabitants. The fact that the outputs of this community are not in the direct control of the games programmers is exactly what makes them interesting. Obviously this is a very expanded definition, and I'm not necessarily saying that CS is 'art' in any traditional sense, but it is obviously a productive engine that mobilizes a community formed within its strictures along certain pathways. It's that potential which should properly be considered as a medium for artistic expression. Artistic creation doesn't have to be the result of one solitary mind at work at an easel in some candle-lit Parisian garret, or whatever other romances we still hold on to - it can happen simply by defining a space where things can take place and be produced. 20th Century Art 101. Creation always arises from a network; it only makes sense that a network itself can be creation.

>>11695359

>>11695359
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood is fantastic, and I don't usually watch anime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8uh9eIBGmE
Also stop being so fucking pretentious.

>>11695715
Two thumbs up

>>11696451
Lol. Watch more films.

>>11696541
Devil May Cry has art infused within its gameplay I would argue. It allows the player to interpret Dante however they choose in a way that suits them. The story to the game is played out as a low brow piece of work, but there's a lot in there to take in.

There are some very interesting camera angles as well; within cutscenes and during gameplay - similar to the intersting angles of Resident Evil to create fear.

>>11696937
Okami has made me cry with tear of joy. I'm usually immune to sad tears but the unbearable defeat and subsequent rescue at the end of the game was powerful enough to make me feel absolute happiness for the development of a certain character who'd been travelling with you the entire journey.

>>11695359
Well I was going to say Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords is great art, but it's a deconstruction so it really doesn't meet your criteria.

the incal
airtight garage (like everything moebius did)
warau kyuuketsuki

>>11697210
>the incal
pffffhahaha

more like "the incel"

>>11697081
Stop being a typical anglo

>>11696029
That's why I also wrote "as well as masterfully made "classical" (that means not avant-garde) works", you festering brain tumor.

>>11696195
Interesting argumentation you've got there.

>>11696987
Lovely. One faggot is accusing me of extreme formalism while the other one of preferring an overly conservative animation studio.

garry's mod

These thread don't work.

The people video gamers seek validation from have no interest (and therefor little experience) in playing video games. Getting recommended stuff that's actually meant for teenagers (Nier: Automata or Planescape: Torment).

Video Gaming culture is just too immature to genuinely foster the type of mentality that leads to good art The exceptions are always to drastically different from any other type of game that it's obvious they came from some other place. Those exceptions being Spec Ops, Silent Hill 2 and SOMA and really barely any other

>>11697115
>heheheh...

>>11697337
PLAY ICE PICK LODGE GAMES

>>11695359
Yeah its got some culture. But I won't tell you what it is. No sir, not me. I'm not gonna tell you shit. Does anyone expect honest answers from lit anymore. Even the people who seem to be answering thoughtful questions are, at the end of the day, still stacks of shit who spend their time here. Of course, I am also here, but at least I know not to want anything from this hell hole.

>>11696148
great write-up. i've been getting into the souls series lately and i have to agree with what you said about it. no work of media has ever made me cry, but Nier Automata certainly came close

>>11695715
10/10 based, redpilled, and high IQ (>150)

>>11696148
Cringe, bluepilled, low IQ (<80), yikes, oof, oops!, and "that's a no from me, champ"

>>11697459
pretty much

Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days is unironically one of the greatest video games of all time. Not even meme'ing.

>>11697459
don't forget it's reddit as fuck

>>11697470
it's the Blackhat of video games

>>11696476
Why are you replying to an anime poster? What choices did you make in life that led you to do something like that?

>>11695715
Waste of time reading this crap.

>>11695359
If you mean pure writing there's plenty of jewels
in comic form, the issue is that the obviously most famous works are the ones with good art.

It's a visual medium after all.

>>11695677
>bedeo gam not art

>>11696148
Well, actually, Dark Souls lore is clearly an image of a Deleuzian metaphysics

>>11697502
>let's-a-go! bing bing wahoo!
>now THIS is art in it's highest form...

>>11697518
>animation, design, painting, music
>not art

Video Games
>Icepick Lodge's work (Pathologic, the Void, etc.)
>Many of Cave's games (if I had to pick, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Ketsui, Guwange in particular)
>Some fighting games (KOFXIII, Garou, Melty Blood, Skullgirls, GGXrd, I could go on and on but it's risky because this is my favorite genre by far.)
>Jet Set Radio and Gunvalkyrie
>maybe SMT2 and Nocturne?

Always has been a very interesting question as to whether games can be art, even if it always devolves into shitflinging. I think you can make good arguments either way. These are all certainly artfully made, but does that make them art? Or is it the quality of the actual game-playing that could qualify as art? I would like to think so.

>>11697568
>it includes art so it's art
no
please read the thread several people have formulated arguments for why that's silly already, I'm not gonna go over it again

you have to find art in what makes a video a video game, the gameplay

>>11697604
so art is art except when it's put together with other art?

>>11697631
Not him but the artwork present could be art but it doesn't make the game art. I agree that it has to come from the actual gameplay.

>>11697642
I can understand that. However, wouldn't that mean that all art isn't art, but the way that you interact with it is art? Not the painting itself, but the way you look at it?

>>11697631
again, please look at the thread
a youtube video with music playing somewhere doesn't make the youtube video art, the music is
a museum isn't art, it's a building

if you go and make an "art game" and it's just a vessel for other forms of art you are delivering trough an .exe file you've failed to find art in the form of a video game

>>11697585
Art is such a completely meaningless non-term I don't understand the constant arguments. There is no standard measure of what art is.

>>11697677
>a museum isn't art, it's a building
Architecture is art.

>>11697688
a museum can be in a shitty basement somewhere
that's not the point, it's a dumb analogy

>>11697677
You think painting is art?
Painting is just a medium for colors and shapes.
Drink rat poison please.

>>11697695
That's retarded
Feel free to go back to clicking on the pixel men and talking to your waifu any time

>>11697693
And a shitty basement is still an architectural construct so it is art.

>>11697688
oh so you are saying the art comes from what makes the building a building and not from the art it presents which is housed inside

why let's look at video games and oh, it doesn't work out because what makes a video game a video game is gameplay and there is no art there as of yet

>>11697677
are photographs, films or cartoons art?

>>11697708
>there is no art there as of yet
Completely subjective statement.

>>11697703
You think you are conveying information right now? Those are just registers shifting pixels on a computer screen.
Suck on that keyboard semen.

>>11697481
we are both on 4chan lad

>>11697708
so from your perspective, what would classify gameplay as art? do you have a criteria?

>>11697642
counter strike then

>>11697709
Yes.

>he doesn't think games are art
Explain this then.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ljJ1IKFHa7U&t=24s

]>>11697736
Wrong.
Traditional photography is just photoreactive chemicals and modern photography is merely the digital simulation of photography. These are just mediums for art.
Obviously the same thing for movies.
Cartoons are just shapes and colors.
All of it is not art.
See: >>11697677
Owned.

>>11697706
>everything is art!
epic

>>11697709
photography isn't art no matter how assblasted /p/ may get
films and cartoons yes, before you go full brainlet and exclaim that film is merely music and a script you should reflect on that and check yourself before you say something silly

>>11697712
not him but that's just plain truth
tetris is near perfect for what it is but there is no art there, it's just a fun waste of time

>>11697726
user input, be it through button presses or wiggle motions or whatever
also in some sense electronic since we are talking about video games not game games
and i guess you would need to specificy that that input has some tangible effect on the thing itself before some retard goes "but i press go on the dvd menu/ i press play on my music player"

>>11697770
>there is no art there
Again, completely subjective statement.

>>11697755
Art is just art, so they count.

>>11697780
>everything is subjective bro so im always right haha

epic nice!

>>11697790
I bet you're also one of those brainlets that thinks morality is objective.

>>11697770
>things are only art when I say so
That's what I'm seeing here. You discard photography and games for a reason and then ignore that same reason when judging film and cartoons. If user input makes something not art then wouldn't that mean live music isn't art?

>>11697733
I unironically agree. CS 1.6 is a masterpiece.

>>11697806
>user input makes something not art
that's not at all what was said anywhere you colossal moron, read again
the fact that you would even think anyone would arguge that means you are a literal retard, i will not reply to you again

>>11697821
That's exactly what all of the "games aren't art" people are saying, though.

>>11697725
So why do you respond to anime posters, but I don't? I gotta know what went wrong with you.

>>11697863
Wrong. The interactive element is what is unique to video games as opposed to other art forms. What people are objecting to is that the vast majority of video games do not utilise the interactive component to further ideas, but instead ape other mediums.

Now, of course others would naturally argue that films are similar, but what separates film from other mediums is editing and all great films utilise editing as a means of transmitting ideas.

>>11697993
>utilise editing as a means of transmitting ideas
also camera work

>>11697678
True, these arguments would be much simpler if everyone understood that 'Art' is an ideal category used to signify value, and one that isn't stable or restricted to any particular genre. There's a lot of crass, derivative and shallow stuff in the fine art world, alongside a few original and thoughtful objects, ideas, people, just as there is in the video game world, and any other sphere of capitalized culture industry. Any use the term 'art' had in demarcating actual social cultural boundaries has long since collapsed, and now only persists as an atavistic ghost that feeds on money and self-satisfied institutional historicism. Anyone who has taken the lessons of the 20th century to heart should know to disregard received generic boundaries when they're looking for value - if it can be found in any discrete place for any length of time, it's already on its way to diffusion via the subversion of another supposedly indestructible borderline.

>>11695715
I think your argument contradicts itself, (basically you said that you can still enjoy low-brow art because you can consciously analyze it, which is the small value system as what distributes high and low brow), but it was pretty and also had some humor. Additionally, intelligence isn't value, but it is an activity present within "genuine" art that merits the name of value in the artistic sense, but not independent of the viewer

>>11695677
>because they're not art

I've started visiting here from /co/
(which means nothing since everyone there are either waifu fags or screaming about cal-arts style)
but for comics I'd count

Cages
Asterios Polyp
A Contract With God Trilogy
Skyscrapers of the Midwest
Like A Velvet Glove Cast in Iron
Big Questions
Essex County

>>11696429
>Everything We Miss, by Luke Pearson
i've been meaning to get this, anything you'd compare it to?

>>11696472
>penguindrum and not utena

>>11695359
As always, start with the Greeks...

>>11695359
sorry, what does “deconstructed” stand for in this context?

>>11695715
Put down the thesaurus. You could have said all of this in one paragraph, two at most, but it took you fucking four.

>>11695813
great panels, but not yet art.
close one nontheless

>>11695971
fuck off and die you acne-pleb

>>11695359
Who is the guy in OP’s picture? Please.

I tried to make video game art. It's not easy

>>11695359
serial experiments lain is pretty good

one piece has pretty good themes unironically.

>>11698869
Self-aware of the genre/medium basically

>>11695359
LOTGH, Berserk, Deus Ex, System Shock 2, people would argue KOTOR though not too sure about that. I would also say games in particular while not necessarily having good stories can have some particularly good concept art.

>>11698799
I wanted to post this.

Well I'll name another one then: Persepolis.

>>11695359
What makes a work of art genuine?
What a shitty thread.

Convince me that these three aren't masterpieces

There's a lot of arguing in this thread over videogames as art, as there always is. The argument of gameplay being the "artistic" vehicle of videogames always seemed an incomplete point as it's just a piece of the overall picture. What >>11696881 makes the most sense, broadening this idea to environments and systems. To compare to film, the gameplay to the videogame as the camera is to the film; an important tool, but not the sole creator of the product.
To give concrete examples, we can consider something like Yume Nikki; almost no actual gameplay, but still seems to possess artistic value unique to its medium. It's not the gameplay that gives it this value, as the gameplay is almost indistinguishable from anything else made in RPG maker, so it must be something between gameplay and the bounds of the videogame.
Although I don't know if Yume Nikki would be considered a genuine piece of art like OP wanted, so maybe something like Dwarf Fortress or even Minecraft might work, handing one the unlimited potential of a videogame world.

Also, to those asking if videogames being art makes chess art, no. But if I make a videogame version of chess, that might be art (depending on if you consider all pieces in an artistic medium art).

>>11695359
The best comics are easily the Cerebus series by Dave Sim. He did 3000 issues over several decades and it was pretty fucking epic and discussed every topic you can think of.

Transmetropolitan series by Warren Ellis was pretty amusing, basically just Hunter S. Thompson meets Blade Runner.

As for anime, anything by Satoshi Kon was pretty good and Steins;Gate was also solid for a series, same with Evangelion.

Video games? I always go back to Deus Ex because I'm old. Mount and Blade was pretty good too because it's totally based and historically accurate especially in some of the expansions.

>>11699039
>To compare to film, the gameplay to the videogame as the camera is to the film; an important tool, but not the sole creator of the product.
The camera, and more importantly, the editing suite are unique characteristics of film, and thus should be emphasised over other elements of the form. All temporal art (such as games and film) must have a narrative; but this should not merely mimic literary narrative. Both films and video games are inherently visual; but they should not merely mimic painterly compositions.

Video game developers, unlike filmmakers, have yet to understand this unique characteristic, and instead create works which are entirely derivative of other mediums. I've yet to play a game which satisfactorily uses its mechanics as the primary means of communicating ideas.

The issue isn't even necessarily that video games fail at being art. I am willing to accept that video games have the potential to be artistically valuable, but as >>11697337 said, the attitude and culture surrounding the notion of artistic value in video games is extraordinarily immature. The industry as a whole needs to fundamentally change in order precipitate the creation of really worthwhile games, but save for a few lone developers, the culture is simply not interested in it.

>>11695370
Planetes is "rose-tinted glasses - the manga/anime", and anything rose-tinted is always bad. The cringy "extreme optimism" philosophy always ruins any work in which it is contained.

>>11699034
Names?

>>11696148
Embarrassing. Dark Souls is an amazing game, but not because of the stuff you're grasping at, because the story of the game is so vague that you can make a lot of interpretations. Instead, Dark Souls is high art because of its design. The atmosphere is outstanding, as are the various concepts in the game (from locales to the bosses). The soundtrack is magnificent, the environmental storytelling top-notch, and level design is almost always excellent.
Reminder that the Painted World of Ariamis is indisputably the best designed level in any video game. Its structure is so sublime that, by itself, it elevates the game above almost every other.

Angel's Egg
Princess Kaguya
Dark Souls (debatable)
That samurai manga whose name is escapinge, also possibly punpun.

>>11696418
>pic related
iktfb

I think Ready Player One is lowbrow art, not in the sense that it is a well-done piece of literature but in the shocking irony of its huge reception and genuine popularity. It perfectly captures the exact manchild demographic it appeals to and many of the lurking problems society will face when those same manchildren are the ones running things, but falls on its own face failing to address or even notice those problems so completely and spectacularly that it almost seems intentional.
It reads like a satire of itself, and if Ernest Cline wasn't such a dweeby little fuck in real life I would suspect that it secretly IS satire. I still retain some small hope that he's actually in on the joke and will one day reveal himself as the greatest performance artist of all time.

>>11695548
>the entire game is just a really long escort mission and Ellie is literally invisible to enemies

The closest I have ever seen a video game come to art is a game called The Beginner's Guide, which was by the guy who did Stanley Parable. It's the only thing I've ever played where I realized I was playing a video game elevated above entertainment. It's questionable whether or not it's actually a game, though.

>>11699150
Pathologic, Twin Peaks: The Return, Revolutionary Girl Utena

>>11699167
>Reminder that the Painted World of Ariamis is indisputably the best designed level in any video game
Umm, no sweaty.....that would be my Mario Maker level. Don't ask for a code 'cause I'm at work

>>11695370
>Planescape: Torment
Stop posting and kill yourself

Anime has a pretty large variety of directors and animators with their own individual voices and visually interesting styles.

>>11699203
based mario maker mapmaker

>>11699181
No, that's like shia labeouf-tier performance art.
I would like it, though, even though it won't happen.

>>11697753
Based and redpilled Dark Donald supporter.

>>11699117
I agree with you, and I'm not sure whether it's due to the way videogames are intertwined with more immature products or if it's due to them being nurtured in our contemporary culture (I think most contemporary art has fallen in quality, and those have had great works to build upon that videogames don't). Even the examples I've listed are at best primitive examples of possible videogames as art. I'm hoping we can get something better, I like good things more than I enjoy complaining about bad things.

>>11696881
Video games can be art, but virtually none are. You are correct in saying the artwork in a video-game-as-art is in the interaction between the participant and the system the artist has set up, but I’d say that if it was commercially released, it doesnt count for anything more than entertainment and that there “is an art” to mastering the interaction in this sort of media. There have, however, been actual INTERACTIVE artworks built inside game engines or otherwise upon the same technological framework as video games, but these are not distributed for profit and the focus is on the raw interaction with the system the artists creates. One example is “[domestic]” by Mary Flanagan. Flanagan modifies the Unreal Tournament 2003 game engine into an interactive autobiographical artwork for participants to explore the experience of coping with traumatic events. Another example might be “TechnoSphere” by Jane Prophet. Part simulation, this interactive artwork had users create a life forms (basically like a 90s Spore) and then simulate life for these virtual creatures with “evolutionary fitness” being determined by the morphological choices user chose during the creation process. Users would receive emails when their creature successfully mated or died in the simulation containing the email address of the creator of the creature that killed/fucked it. These have in common that they are artworks first and foremost and have video game elements. Neither the gameplay, the game art, nor the music is the artwork, but the event of the audience (now participants) interfacing with the creation of the artist is.

tl;dr: interactive artworks can manifest as a video-game-like experience on the surface but if it’s in your steam library or on your console HDD it probably isn’t.

>>11695953
Stop posting on /a/. Wish I could put a bullet in your brain, you really disgust me.

>>11695359
Why are you excluding deconstructions?

>>11698925
classic example of why video games are not art
your specific aim was to make an art game and what you ended up with here is something that might as well be a heady cartoon, stripped of all that makes a video game a video game

>>11695359
The Monogatari series is genuinely art

Haibane Renmei. (It's even inspired by Murakami). Az Ember Trajadiya.

>>11695359
Pulps did, but it was rare.

>>11695753
Silent Hill is the walmart Jacob's Ladder

>>11697021
>Defending mass-market anime
I think it is you who is the bugman, bugman

>>11699168
Based

Of the comics I own, Hellboy, Requirem Vampire Knight, and Bone. Maybe Punk Rock Jesus.

>>11696937
>playing total war attila
>suebi
>losing a battle, everyone getting killed
>last 4 units start routing
>suddenly even though they are heavily outnumbered the general's unit goes back into battle and says "warriors never surrender" as they charge to their honorable deaths
>burst into tears
>tfw you will never be human enough to become reckless and fearless in the face of death

We are nothing but parodies of our ancestors.

Why is low culture considered not artistic?

I'm really struggling with defining what art is anons, I'm about to buy the fucking Tolstoy book because I can't figure it out.

>>11698882
more words is less efort

>>11698178
I didn't say lowbrow art needs to be analysed to be enjoyed (or enjoyed "tastefully" or whatever), but I did say that some of the things you can dig up from it are unique and worthwhile in themselves.

>>11700141
you have to be a bugman whith no dreams or imagination of your own to shit on Ghibli

I'm about to read through this thread and I I don't see Krazy Kat mentioned as a contender for high art I'll be deeply sad.

What the fuck happened to /lit/?

I don't think that video games as a medium are art but certainly parts of them are.

>>11695813
Tintin is overrated
t. frenchman

>>11700574
It's a children's book series, FFS.

>>11699701
Murakami is pulp
Haibane Renmei is the biggest melodramatic piece of shit I've ever seen

Vagabond has the benefit of being based on a novel, but the art I think elevates it, instead of being a detriment.

>>11695359
That isn't what low culture is

>>11700456
miyazaki is a cheap moralist who is really a villain

>>11700764
>moralist
that's not a bad thing you degenerate decadent bugman

Define 'art'.

>>11696103
Are you retarded? It's a free adaptation, Coppola can make it have whatever point he wants, Conrad's intention and "point" is completely irrelevant.

>>11695359
Of course, there's a lot of good mangas out there

>>11700766
did you miss everything around that word mr. 4chan-inquisitor?

I'd call making perfect gameplay more of a craft than an art - out of the games with the best design that I can think of (Tetris, Counter Strike and Super Metroid) Super Metroid is the only one I could even slightly see being called an artistic achievement.

>>11701038
Also RE4

>>11698956
LOGH is just a regular political space opera mate, some of the plotlines are outright ridiculous too

The name alone of "Pillars of Eternity" is art.
The rest of the game is just filler to that fantastic name, there's an entire tale within just those three words.

>>11700488
Wanted to post the same thing. It's like either everyone here is 16 years old or stuck in the beginning of 20th century. This (>>11700777) meme reply should have actually been the first itt.

What if the gameplay mechanics are unintrisive to the telling of the story and actually augment it in a good way? Like a soft RPG with different plot routes that together form a complete picture. For a game to truly be art I think it has to embrace the gameplay element in a tasteful way, not just force a movie/novel story into gameplay or have the story be secondary to gameplay, or have some awkward gameplay mechanic that doesn't meld well with the story and just obstructs the telling of it. I don't know if that really can be done but I'd like to see it, it has to be possible somehow.

>>11701123
>>11700488
can you say what you mean instead of just acting like it's obvious? thanks

>>11696148
Cringe, this is why Nabokov made fun of mythological criticism in Look at the Harlequins and elsewhere, "this-stands-for-that" brainletism that produces a footnote to itself from whatever work in discussion.

>>11701105
Pillars of Eternity is a really lame generic name. Uninspiring. Banal.

>>11701171
I think it was supposed to be a "joke"

>>11701198
What have I become...

>>11699442
that webm is not the game:
https://rainfrogs.itch.io/train-game

>>11696987
Guarantee this nigga hasn't seen Grave of the Fireflies, The Wind Rises, Only Yesterday, My Neighbors the Yamadas, Whisper of the Heart, Ocean Waves, Iblard Jikan or The Tale of the Princess Kaguya.

>>11701269
fuck off!!!!

What even is the point of making a deconstruction of something?

>>11701512
nothing, it's garbage

I agree that for a game to be art it has to be doing something artistic that only a game can do, the characters of the game fall under sculpture, the soundtrack is music. But like we judge a film primarily by it's visual features, we judge a game based on how we interact with it.

The only game that ever made me feel something based on gameplay elements was pic related.

>>11699183
>The entire game is a fat Italian breaking blocks and eating mushrooms

>>11699143
>rose-tinted glasses - the manga/anime
Have you read or watched it? Looks like you didn't

>>11699306
>Neither the gameplay, the game art, nor the music is the artwork,
You have to go back.

I cant believe /lit/ is full of /v/tards and weeaboos.

Donkey Kong Country is the closest that video games will ever get to high art.

Gravity's Rainbow

>>11701792
OK

>>11695587
Got me into graphic novels myself, good shit

>study art history
>provide examples of actual artworks that use the same technology as video games, in one case even using an established game engine
>explain why video games in your steam library will never be considered high art
>only get one meme reply with no argument

Ah, it’s been a while since I’ve been here, I forgot /lit/ is comprised of pseuds

I don't know about it being amazing art, but it got me back into reading after I stopped when I was a teenager. Because of that I love it

Also the best volume is 3

>>11702802
Haha. Know it was read and appreciated. The examples you point out are interesting, but they do strike me as works from within the 'high art' world which happen to use digital game technology as their medium. This whole debate is founded ambiguously until we define what everyone thinks art actually is of course, and I did my best briefly here >>11698113 , but I tend to think that when this debate comes up it's less about technology itself as a viable medium than it is about anxiety over engagement and identification with a 'minor' 'pulpy' form of cultural production, and questions over the relative status of a popular genre versus more rarefied historical or high cultural kinds of production. To me, and it strikes me, to many artists and thinkers of worth, the boundaries are not so clear. A Dark Souls can embed allusively poetic lore and an intensely felt and original physicality within and on top of the pulpy and cliche-ridden conventions of a fantasy RPG, and [domestic] can take advantage of video game technology to program environments with much more poetic and creative freedom than capital-dependent video game businesses can - while also falling prey to the pretty cheesy whimsy of shooting 'coping mechanisms' at metaphorically burning walls. I think the interpenetration of commodifiable-but-not-quite-yet subcultural and high cultural strains of production and thinking has been one of the more vital, fraught, and interesting narratives of the art world in the last 50 years. What's Jacques Rivette without Hollywood, Roy Lichtenstein without comic books, Warhol without the Velvet Underground (and capitalism), Sigmar Polke without psychedelics, Kippenberger without SO36, Jutta Koether without Spex magazine.. could go one. Surely the most vital art feeds on this capitalized, libidinous, subcultural current even as it distances itself from it, and I think the tension that animates that relationship is similar to the one people are raising here when they're thinking about the relative cultural status of video games.

Now some /a/utismos blow their load at hunter x hunter for using metaphorical imagery, and others over trope deconstruction in countless other series. However I'am pretty sure most on /a/ would agree Hummonculus is a peice of art, if not close to it. It follows the journey of a succesful buisnessman's decent into poverty and insanity. As he begins seeing shit because he drilled a hole in his head. The delusions are only of people and are often a representation of a flaw or regret. As the main character runs around trying to find out why he can see this ontop of what all means.

In conclusion, best manga I've ever read and you should read it too.

>>11696987
>Every Miyazaki movie is the exact same, boring formula.
Fixed. Stop buying into Disney marketing and realize they've got more than one director already.

>>11695359
>Does the sphere of low culture (e.g. comic books, anime, video games) have any genuine pieces of art?
>sphere of low culture
somethng tells me this is either bait or you've only read books your entire life which is sad

>>11703388
I don't know if I want to take reccomendation from someone who cannot spell 'homunculus'

>>11695359
Depends what we look at. Video Games can eb judged on many merits, such as gameplay and naritive.
Id argue Getting over it is art, albeit the gameplay is very rather pure, if not just simple. But what Bennet has to say about frustration is really good. But you only deserve it if you can get far enough, as Bennet himself puts a lot of weight upon.

Also inb4 >hurr durr twitch game.

>>11696708
The choice the player experiences is on the meta level of choosing whether to play the game or not. Your character isn't supposed to feel shame for his actions in the game, you as the player are supposed to feel shame for choosing to pick up and play a game that glorifies violence in this way.

if it includes supernormal stimuli it is low culture

>>11695359
>comic books
Sandman by Gaiman, Calvin and Hobbes by Watterson
>anime
Ghost in the Shell, Psycho Pass
>video games
Monument Valley, Deus Ex, Shadow of the Colossus (which isn't a deconstruction, can't imagine anyone thinking it is unless they don't know what that word means)

Pokemon Red & Blue are the highest aesthetic achievements of our civilization.

>>11696476
t.not an artist

>>11699167
>Reminder that the Painted World of Ariamis is indisputably the best designed level in any video game. Its structure is so sublime that, by itself, it elevates the game above almost every other.
this but undead burg

Madoka is a legitimate work of art. It is also not a deconstruction in spite of the memes.

>>11704286
>iliad
>odyssey
>faust
>divine comedy
>ficciones
Really?

>>11702802
I don't understand how TehcnoSphere is any more legitimate, from your description, than Spore itself would be. How does commercial availability demote a video game's level of artistic merit?

>>11695359
Revolutionary Girl Utena. The series and the movie.

>>11695813
Captivating how? All two dimentional characters.

The prof, brainbox with gpathair trigger. Capt Haddock, ineffective sober, lucky drunk; Castafiore, aging damsel, fat diva.
Snowy, gluttony for bone, dog ex machina.
Tintin's the best: plot armored hero, eureka everyboy.

Fans say the threat of danger makes the read harrowing. Bolloks: tintin has a bulletproofskull vulnerable only to blunt objects. Professional badguys have 0 skill with firearms. Explosions kill nobody. Diamemberment, frosbite, blood, knives and shadows dont exist in tge Tintinverse. Asterix has more realistic combat, even with BIFF and TCHAC and magic potion.

>>11695359
mgs3 and 1, Bioshock for video games
EoE, Paprika, Perfect Blue, I don't really know much about anime but Akira is probably classified as a deconstruction
Kingdom Come, Marvels, etc. basically any Alex Ross book

>>11701144
>something that clearly engages in mythology isn't open to mythological interpretation in fact mythology doesn't even exist forget about it brainlet even if it's a series like Persona that actively references Jung who worked intensely with mythology no no no forget it it doesn't count because Daddy said so

>>11704883
>undead burg
You have to be legit retarded to not only think that Undead Burg is a better level than the Painted World of Ariamis, but also to think it's the best designed level in any video game.
2/10 bait, you made me reply

>>11695359
Katamari Damacy and its sequel are the only video games I will consider art

>>11695359
Call of Duty: Black Ops

>>11695359
Why'd you call things superior to books as "low culture"?

>>11706148
>Why'd you call things superior to books as "low culture"?
>Why'd you call things superior to books as

That's why.

>>11703685
What about from someone who can't spell recommendation?

>>11697400
>tfw backed pathologic 2
Everyone here should download and play the Marble Nest demo, the final game is gonna be something special

>>11695359
>low culture
false dichotomy

>>11696148
Actually based, don't listen to the other retards

>>11695359
If you think NGE is good because it's an ebin "deconstruction" then you could benefit from a rewatch.

Bayonetta has an insanely deep combat system that I'd consider art. But on the outside, looking at the visual and audio aspects by themselves it's hilariously corny. It's such a unique dichotomy that could only exist in games. Also for a game about a nude witch it somehow manages to come across incredibly gay and camp.

"Papers Please" is as deep as any short story from Kafka

The Miyazaki movies are masterpieces.

Vagabond, to me, it's a great work of art, and a source of inspiration and lessons on how to live.

>>11706952
lol

And these:

>>11706952


are just some examples

Like this Anon pointed out:

>>11704363
>Calvin and Hobbes by Watterson

This is one of the greatest artistic achievements of our time.

>>11695566
>grey dude actually does the legitimately Bad Thing To Do

To a utilitarian maybe

>>11695359

>>11708250
is that what they give out at kfc with a happy meal
colonel origin story

>>11695359
Darkest Dungeon
by leaving many options open, it creates a sense of immersion that is uncommon in video games

>>11708309
it's just a retarded grind and would be better suited as a phone game with cooldown timers and little gems you can buy for 4,99

Georges Kamitami's games are most definitely art.

>>11706952
Vagabond is adapted from a famous novel. It's visually beautiful though a bit formal. I'd argue Berserk, though less polished and pulpish is a greater work of art.

>>11697470
how?

>>11708314
play it on the easiest mode like a normal fucking person

Video games can't be art because it requires player input to experience it, a video game will never be the same experience to two different people.
Also fuck people that think that the narrative is more important than gameplay.
>>11708309
Darkest Dungeon is literally Pokemon but edgier.

>>11706952
>"Papers Please" is as deep as any short story from Kafka

this

>>11708370
Maybe the flashback, but Berserk is really not as impressive as it's made out to be. Vinland Saga is a more impressive title in the same genre, and even it isn't really high art in the way the works of Takahashi Yousuke or Irie Aki are.

>>11695359
I am willing to bet you listen to hiphop or rock music, you pretentious twat.

/lit/ has terrible taste

Depends what you mean by 'art". Low culture can be written well and though provoking while "high culture can be dull and slogging.

>>11708715
Let's be honest, all dabblers do.

>>11708457
>Darkest Dungeon is literally Pokemon but edgier.
No. The mechanic are completely different. i don't know how you sanely made this comparison, unless of course you didn't play the game.

>>11695359
>comics
Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is probably worth your time, almost certainly the best comic ever created, but I wouldn't consider it high culture.
>anime
not really lol
>video games
Alpha Centauri and Betrayal At Krondor are relatively well written I guess.

>>11695359
Are graphic novels really low art? There are plenty that I would call vastly more artful than most modern fictions I've read.

>>11708790
If it was invented after modernism, it's low art

I think Braid is the first video game that deserves to be called high art. It's the first game that couldn't be a movie, book or anything else. Also true for The Witness. Anything more?

Also never visit r/truefilms, r/truegaming etc they're cancer

I think video games are sort of restricted by the fact that they're necessarily existential. There's only so much time you can spend treading the field of choice as your core focus.