/lit/ - Literature

>>11676290
The self, or any human concept, is an illusion. What happened to the ship of theseus? It was never real outside of our minds, and when we choose to stop calling it by that name is up to us, because it wad up to us to start calling it so

>>11676290
When a bit of the ship is replaced, the old removed part is now dross and the new part becomes a part of the Ship of Theseus. It was never Ship of Theseus Plus Little Bit That Isn't: it was only and ever Ship of Theseus. Therefore, it will remain a Ship of Theseus regardless of how many little bits are replaced over time.

>>11676313
AHAHAHAH see this is giving me a panic attack. So i was thinking about the memory thing. And if we can assume if i cant remember myself years ago i never existed essentially or i did but that "me" is dead. Therefore, then what is the minimum time that i die ; do i only exist in instants of time on exact points.
>>11676318
Okay, i understand that but what if every part has been replaces, surely its disingenuous to state that it is the original ship. However, the ship doesn't matter to much as its what just led to "me" thinking about this . I'm more perplexed about this question : who am i? Am i just an instant living in an assigned body and name?

>>11676290
The Myth of the Soul by Clarence Darrow

>>11676290
The seeming paradox plays the accidental properties of the ship (the wood its made of) against its essential properties (its form, its structure).

Consider a triangle. The essence of any triangle is that it is a polygon with three sides. Now let's take a particular triangle in the form of a street sign. Note we can paint over it, scratch it, even bend it out of shape, yet it still maintains its essence, that property that is its most characteristic trait, a bounded plane figure of three sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(philosophy)

>>11676313
>Your mind on modern philosophy.

>>11676365
>this is giving me a panic attack
Just breathe, it will pass

>>11676318
>>11676365
Yes, there is continuity with small parts being replaced bit by bit. Once a new part is on it becomes integrated and becomes the ship, not a piece added on. So with the human cells. I also don't think the soul is a copout either though. Take an extreme example, like complete amnesia. They may not know themselves at all, but we know intuitively that they are the same person.

>>11676413
Thank you i will read this.
>>11676435
but the ship is supposed to be the ship that Theseus rode on so that is its essence. But if we swap it out completely is it still the ship he rode on? Like if we have the original and then make an exact replica and then burn the original is the replica now the original ship?Is essence a transitive property? What is a humans essence are you perhaps implying that a persons essence can stay the same but throughout their life they happen to have different accidents and have different forms but being the same thing?

>>11676505
You're right that it would depend then on the particular definition of the Ship of Theseus. If the ship is defined as being the one he literally rode on, then after the complete renovation has been made, it would no longer be considered the same ship.

>>11676498
So then take this case (considering we ignore you physical being is not yourself): believe I have person A that has had unique life experience's and unique memories and their is a such person B with unique experience's. If we transplant person A memories into person B is person B also not person A now. I feel like you cannot intuitively say that person B is still person A. I feel like the soul is the only answer i can think off ( it being eternal and all ).However , we cannot prove its existence(we cant weigh it ) so it feels like a copout but the only conclusion i can come to which im pleased with. The only other one is that "I" am not "myself" but exist independently in a moment.

>>11676505
>What is a humans essence are you perhaps implying that a persons essence can stay the same but throughout their life they happen to have different accidents and have different forms but being the same thing?
Classically a human is defined as being a rational animal. The most essential trait being his intellect and will, which constitute his soul.

>>11676290
Imo, there is no intrinsic "selfness" to anything. I am me, because I think of myself as me and I am recognised by others as me.
The physicality and memories have nothing to do with it. I was me at birth, as much as I am me now but we'd be difficult mentally and physically match on the level that matters (human to human interaction).

Moreover, I feel the societal and individual aspects of it are separate. If I woke up tomorrow looking like a different person that I did the day before, in my mind I am still me, but in society's mind, I am someone else (vice versa if I woke up thinking I'm Elvis). I don't feel that either of these beliefs can take precedence over the other, feel free to fite me on this.

>>11676533
The essence i believed was something permanent and unchangeable intellect can be eroded with age and will can be broken. The only thing i can agree with is the soul but again it cannot be observed so my hesitance in declaring it as the solution.

>>11676662
The words "intellect" and "will" have very particular definitions in the literature that are not conveyed by the ones normally used for those words in everyday language. I recommend Edward Feser's The Last Superstition for an elaboration of this subject with respect to the arguments for the existence of God and the human soul.

But in short, no, those things are not given to change. The human soul, and its intellect and will, are immaterial and hence unchangeable.

>>11676532
I just think that's a dumb hypothetical because I don't think we'll ever have the ability to transplant or effect memories to any great degree. There has also been many well documented out-of-body experiences that are unexplainable without the soul existing; experiences where people who have been pronounced dead or had no brain activity have come back to life and heard or saw things they otherwise would not be able to. There are thousands of such cases. The soul is also a natural extension if you believe in free will and consciousness, and that they're not compatible with materialism.

>>11676505
Memories, in my oppinion, are what consists of human essence, of soul.
Your body, and even your personality, may change... but what makes you 'you' besides perhaps what you remember?

If you forget your name, you might as well have never had one. If you forget your mom, you might as well have never had one... so on it goes.

To me, Alzheimer's Disease is scarier than any dissociative philosophy.

Bump.

You do not realize you're embodying the answer by asking the question?

>>11676365
A complete transformation is something new

>>11676365
>Therefore, then what is the minimum time that i die ; do i only exist in instants of time on exact points.
You don't exist, anon.

I finished Serial Experiments Lain yesterday and it's interesting how relevant it is to part of this discussion since it touched the concept of memory. If everyone forgets about a certain event, did that event ever happened?

>>11679134
No, neither does anyone else, because your brilliant mind hasn't shed its light on the issue. We'll just have to continue groping in the dark until you decide to enlighten us.

>>11679556

The Phenomenal conditions initially associated with the question's first utterance have gradually changed until it reached this thread. But the question itself remains identical. By contemplating the Ship of Theseus you embody the answer that, irrespective of the Phenomenal-Interpersonal continuum between your contemplation and its first contemplation, the Ship and consequently the ship remains the same.

>>11677555
I would have to disagree with you on memories being the defining part of your self. So take case A where there is a person who cannot remember their childhood does that mean they never existed as a child? Or case B where there is a criminal who committed a horrible crime 20 years ago and is in prison for life; if he forgets his crimes is he now pardoned? No that sounds absurd you are held for your actions even if you yourself cant remember them as long as others do.What would you purpose about memory implantation or if we one day invent technology which can completely overwrite your memory?
>>11679480
Cogito, ergo sum. Deals nicely with your statement.
>>11679482
Isn't this just a rehash "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound . If others remember then it did happen. If no one remembers perhaps it never happens. But if there was an omniscient God or some sort of insanely technologically advanced civilisation they could surely trace the event or find evidence of it.