/lit/ - Literature

>>11649247
I love dosto but he hardly btfo's atheists. Some of his best and most reasonable characters are atheists.

I’m a nonbeliever and he’s my favorite author

>>11649247
Atheists are people who don't believe in God, not people who don't believe in Dostoevsky

>>11649247
>I am a sick man.... I am a spiteful man. I am an unattractive man. I believe I poop too much, and it hurts when I make pee pee.

so this is the power of Russian literature

>>11649255
Isn't C&P just one big cock slap to the "I don't need religion to be moral" idea?

>>11649247
Why do Atheists LARP as Christians and then make these garbage threads.

>>11649541
controlled opposition

Dosto was a degenerate, the religious posturing was a cope.

>>11649508
It's really tacked on at the end. Raskolnikov finds god literally on the last page

>>11649553
Same goes for Tolstoy by the way.

Read Goncharov instead.

>>11649541
being an atheist used to imply "intellectual" in the last fifteen years or so but now they have to actively try to show some sort of superiority and all they have is 9gag tier bait

>>11649556
Throughout the whole book he slowly realizes his Nietzschean theory about himself was wrong, and he finds salvation through Sonya. Her being the only one who understands his suffer which she can only bear the Christian way.
The whole book is a criticism of nihilism and atheism

>>11649247
atheism is entirely bound to an unstable linguistic trap and thus adherence is essentially the same blind idiocy as assuming the cloth

rejection of god is tryhard teenager shit, misunderstandings of anecdotal parable writ large. it's the church's fault. god is and has always been the jar of explanation, a useful toy. basically the issue is an insufficient or incomplete reading.

>>11649556
Dostoevsky didn't want to include the epilogue but his editor wanted a less subtle religious message.

>>11649508
Meanwhile in reality, crime rates among non-believers are lower than those among believers. Really makes you think.

>>11651325
>Communists kill 50 million people in a few decades
>b-but, muh crusades

>>11651342
>implying communist systems didn't deify their leader

>>11651351
>everything I don't like is theism

>>11651362
"Good people will do the best they can, evil people will do the worst they can, but if you want a good person to do wicked things, you'l need religion"

Not my fault history proves this quote correct

>>11651325
>not baking a cake for a faggot is now a (((hate crime))) and gets counted in with muzzies exploding in air ports
>somehow this proves the moral authority of people thinking they are smarter than literally millenia of people destilling societal rules for our species

>>11651379
It doesn't even matter, atheist fertility rates are less than 1. They literally won't exist in a few generations. Kinda funny given their dopgmatic obsession with the theory of evolution that they don't even bother to participate in it.

>>11651394
>somehow still fastest growing demographic under "religious views"
dogmatic religion is a thing of the past, accept it

>>11651406
>atheism is a white people thing
>white people get propagandized the hardest with anti-christianity
>atheism is growing my dudes!
>meanhiwle africa gets more islam by he hour and in asia christians are growing so quick the regime is fucking afraid
>meanwhile europes dies due to insufficient birth rate because pain and sarrow are now outdated just like giving your hedonism up to give life and prosperity onto your children
Yeah, it's not like it's the death of europe or something. I guess one can do morally no wrong, by simply not existing.

>>11651406
We'll see in a few decades, won't we? Now be sure and get some sleep, you know the call to prayer is going to wake you up early in the morning.

>>11651379
those millennia of people found slavery, stoning to death, cutting off of hands, cutting out of tongues, beatings and lashings, and many, many other barbarities to be acceptable rules for society. I would absolutely say that I, and our societies today, are vastly more moral than societies of the past, and that is thanks to the enlightenment, and the primary characteristic of the enlightenment was moving away from dogmatic holy books and towards humanistic reason and compassion.

>>11651370
based atheist tranny poster

>>11651419
>We'll see in a few decades, won't we?
>the statistics don't agree with me so I'll just say wait and see

>>11651426
I get that you're memeing and everything but there are people who really believe that and if you make posts like that, even as a joke, they're going to think they are welcome here.

>>11651426
>and many, many other barbarities to be acceptable rules for society
And that'S why we eugenically culled the wicked and have the lovest crime rates in human history and the current world, would we ont be importing nogs and muzzies (which still need that culling).

>and our societies today, are vastly more moral than societies of the past
It's like you people don't even think WHY that is the case. One would think you would use natural selection a a tool.

>and that is thanks to the enlightenment
That's due to white peoples constant self-flagelation. No people on this earth is more self-sceptic than tha white man. That's why we destill the best societal rules as we always try to better ourselves. Meanwhile if you would bother to read into the spontanous spread of atheism you would understand that those roots are neither european nor natural.

In the name of humanism millions of people have been killed, be it the sovjet union or the frence revolution. Kid you know nothing.

>>11651418
>implying atheism requires hedonism
false

>>11651448
>using christian values in your "atheist" worldview makes christianity obsolet
Stop larping and start beeing thankfull that you could profit from it.

>>11651453
but the asceticism in christianity was just ripped off from manichaeism by people who never met christ, so why should thank christianity rather than mani?

>>11651448
It's not required just like unprecedented death tolls and oppression of human dignity and freedom is not required for communism but they sure like to hang out together don't they?

>>11651459
I dunno, why didn't Mani get popular? Einstein ripped off the one (1) paper he ever published from an Italian mathematician but guess who gets the credit for General Relativity.

>>11651462
mani was popular but it died out since nobody was allowed to fuck...

>>11651459
>what is natural religious evolution
We prolly also have pats of the Göbekli Tepe People in our faith, That should tell you something about the eternal truth in it, kiddo.

>>11651459
>asceticism
Nobody mentioned asceticism until you did. Why do you reflexively associate opposition to hedonism with total abstinence of the flesh? Do you not understand what moderation is? You're just like people that flip out if you suggest they shouldn't masturbate to pornography for 4 hours a day.

>>11651462
he also coopted boze's work later in his career, all einstein contributed to "boze-einstein statistics" was translating one of boze's papers into german

>>11651453
>christian values
well seeing as every "chrsitian value" has christians on both sides of it, that doesn't really get you anywhere

>>11651484
It's about the source of the value and what social institutions were critical in its propagation, retard.

>>11651444
Humanism is a system that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings. You may not call what happened in the soviet union "humanism".

>>11651491
Christianity poached all of its "values" from previous traditions, and the main thing that chrsitian institutions seem to be interested in is the molestation of little boys and the spread of AIDS by telling people not to use condoms

The part in Notes from the Underground, with the police officer, was genuinely hilarious. Dostoevsky is an important read, but he's also a judgmental fuck.

>>11651499
gotta admit that latest pedo report from pennsylvania is a really shitty look for the church, started shopping around online for an affordable copy of the geneva bible

>>11651342
Not defending communism, but that is a poor comparison. Most of the deaths caused by communism were due to retard tier planning (and ensuing famine)

Atheists like to pretend that a lot of persons don't exist.

>>11651499
>muh pedos
>what is the Lavender Mafia and how is it coupled with the 1960s liberalization of the catholic church
Moral relativism from the humanist and atheist is literally what destorys the church and society, stupid.

The problem of natural evil logically precludes an omnipotent and benevolent God from existing. But what does that have to do with Dostoevsky?

>>11651528
>the pope moved around pedophiles to shield them from legal prosecution because of the damn liberal humanist atheists!
you are self parody at this point

>>11651528
>implying the deal with the church wasn't always "the priests give up their chance to slay vaganny so in return we let them get in a few humps on our sons" but then the identity politics self-centered bullshit of the 60s suddenly made all these kids start snitchin just cuz they had to suck off a priest or two

u can tell kavanaugh got diddled but wasn't a bitch about it, the way he was talking about "father so and so" you can tell the dude got in that bootyhole but kavanaugh is no snitch

why do christcucks like to pretend he doesn't exist?

>>11651540
The current pope is NOVUS ORDO and most likely himself part of the Lavender Mafia, you mong. There is a reason why most traditional catholics start getting sede vacante.

>>11651544
There is a difference between having illegitimate children with a woman and molesting children. But you wouldn't know.

>>11649553
Aren't we all?

>>11649247
>creates a strawman
>'atheists btfo'

that's c&p for you

>>11649247
Because atheists is not a human. They are Sociopath

>>11651484
What is a heretic for 500 please
>>11651499
What is a red herring for 1000 please

Anon, we know you can do better.

>>11651515
So at absolute best, the premier atheist ideology of the world is still absolute devastating and contributed more to the suppression of human freedom and dignity than any other force. Well, sounds like it's worth trying again.

>>11651544
Are you implying that Catholics are subject to sinful human nature too?

>>11651560
as if that matters

>>11652893
There is no necessary connection between atheism and communism. You have no argument.

>>11651538
>waah people suffer and are killed, surely a creator can't exist
You're retarded

atheists don't read the classics

>>11652745
based

>>11652892
>my version of religion is right and anyone who differs is a heretic
how ever do religious wars start?
>I can't argue that christianity isn't an amalgamation of previous traditions so I'll just call that a red herring
try harder friend

>>11653338
what a stupid thing to say

>>11651394
>atheism is hereditary

>>11653338
like frickin this! They only read ya fiction and rick and motry novels

>>11653731
The narrowmindedness and arrogance of thinking the last century somehow got the meaning of life more correct than at least 40.000 years since the drawings in the cave of Chauvet despite not even having a single prove more than those you call delusional is hereditary, and if only in terms of learning from the disgenic effects of such a lifestyle, just like people today look back at boomers in disgust.

>>11654255
>atheism is strictly modern

>>11654311
>makes fun off christians for thinking they are the only ones right in a sea of pagans
>clutches upon a hand full of agnostics, kikes and fedoras as their leaders
The church knew well to burn degenerates as a daily reminder to the faithfull. Thank natural selection for the fact that your evolutionary strategy is literally not reproducing for the sake of eathly pleassure.

>>11654537
are you arguing the moral high ground while approving of burning people at the stake? sounds like your boldness is in equal proportion to your ignorance

>>11654595
>implying exterminating of societal menaces is a bad thing

>>11651394
It's the other way around.
Western faith is fading away, Asia is already mostly secular in practice and Islam won't be able to sustain itself in this century. Circa 2100, your average "muslim" will be a post-modern irreligious person engaging in fewer and fewer rituals merely for cultural reasons.

>>11654641
if you want to exterminate societal menaces, begin with yourself please

>>11649247

I'm a firm believer that Dostoevsky existed.

>>11654677
>no...u!

>>11653118

>There is no necessary connection between atheism and communism

Yes, of course. It was just all a big coincidente that religions and religious people were heavily persecuted in any communist regime, were classified as an atheist state, and promoted the conversion to atheism. Yup, definitely, nothing to do with atheism, at all.

Just like on muslim countries! Ignore the fact that christians became one of the most opressed minorities of the world just because of how they are persecuted there, it's all a lie by the media, muslims actually love christians.

>>11654730
>muh oppression

tolerating subversives is for fools. the church knew this as well, see the cathars

>>11654917

for fuck's sake. the opression is not the point. read again, slowly, until you get it.

>>11654955
in response to the point: not all communism is marxism and communism existed before marx. there have also been religious communists.

and even if all commies where atheists, the vast majority of atheist are not commies, so saying that atheism is bad because commies are mean is not a very good argument.

also, the premier atheist ideology is liberal humanism, not marxism. so you're wrong in all kinds of ways.

>>11649258
Me too.

>>11649247
I'm an agnostic and I'm reading C&P rn. I'm about 70% of the way through it and I don't see anything in this book that would convince me to become religious. Can anyone expand on why you think this guy debunks atheism?

>>11649247
Why do people pretend like he proves the Christian god is true any more than Allah or Brahman?

>>11651426
>stoning to death, cutting off of hands, cutting out of tongues, beatings and lashings,
These should unironically be brought back

>>11655215
Read The Brothers Karamazov. The entire novel is a BTFO'ing of atheists.

>>11655336
Allah is conceived generally as the same as the Christian god, although the Quran defies necessary Christian theological assertions.

Brahman is typically the continuous reality you're sitting in as a single entity with some kind of personhood. separate from yours (and your body is a piece of his body).

>>11655782
wrong

>>11655737
thank you for demonstrating the caliber of person a theist is

>>11655786
>Brahman is typically the continuous reality you're sitting in as a single entity with some kind of personhood. separate from yours (and your body is a piece of his body).

Yes I'm aware, depending on the school of Vedanta they hold various views, some hold that the entity is the only Being that really is with everything that makes us appear separate being strictly illusionary. That's besides the point though because the novel largely just makes an indirect case for religion and belief in the divine by showcasing the emptiness and ignorance of atheism, rather than going through gymnastics trying to logically prove the existence of a separate creator-skyfather who was the god of the OT and NT. The BTFOing of athiests could just as easily apply to the transcendental god of Hinduism and Sufism.

>>11655093
>don't mind my ideology which has a insanely disproportional likelyhood of genociding your people, killing all their faithfull and priests and suck your country dry till it collapses under it's dead body weight because #notall
Liberal humanism is a meme intermediate state just like socialism to communism. All of them want to unmake man und built him back up aftr thei utopic image beeing strictly against evolution in this regard and denying human nature.

You aren't as objective and rational as you think believing in the a societal meme instaed of beeing lead by reality. Humans are religious since our brains got big enogh to care about othr things than food and shelter.

It's truly ironic how your kind blames religious people through projection of your own faults.

>>11655811
One which knows human nature better than someone thinking they can kumbaya their way through reality. Your kind is to blame for resocialization attempts for pedophiles and proper faggot sex beeing teaches to elementary aged kids. You don't understand that one degenerate can undermine thousands of children and for this sacrilege deserve to die for the protection of the innocent.

But you rathr believe in equality and the innocense of the degenerate.

>>11655917
i'm not a commie m8, i'm just pointing out that your argument is shitty.

>>11656064
Just like socialists claim to not be communists. They either lie or more likely don't know their history nor human ways.

>>11656084
i don't have any political affiliation lad

>>11656250
That doesn't mean that you aren't promoting a ideology through your views and deeds.

>>11653731
Not as hereditary as religiosity.

>>11656341
i could be interpreted as promoting a wide range of ideologies based on the observer probably.

>>11649255
>Some of his best and most reasonable characters are atheists.

>Raskolnikov murders an old woman and goes through psychological torture
>Ippolit was a faggot who tried to kill himself
>Basically every atheist character from Demons was a piece of shit
>Ivan was cool but he went bonkers and hallucinated the devil

>>11656464
>forgetting Smerdyakov and Svidrigailov

>>11655934
The problem is that the power you wish to wield over other people would cause a tyranny. You are pro-tyranny. Tyranny would be bad for society. Therefore, by your own reasoning, you should exterminate yourself for the good of society.

Every character in Dostoevsky's work is irrational bordering on insane. Is it that hard to write normal characters?

>>11653722
>>11653732
having read the classic immediately converts one to a believer in something virtuous,
remaining an a-theist after reading the classics is impossible; ergo: no atheist has ever read the classics

>>11657399
Every political system is thranny. At least a catholic theocraty has cretated the most beautiful art, a population willing to survive even the death plague and beeing strong enough to fight off invasive muzzies unilke "liberal democraty" spreading pedophilia, terrorism, the destruction of the family and the will to survive for their disolvment to create an european mutt race after Kalergi.

I rather kil degenerates than let healthy people kill themselves because society is run by the former.

>>11649247

I don't (pretend he doesn't exist). I read him when I was 17-18 and I was like well damn I still don't agree with you and you're still wrong, but good job defending your corner, well met.

Works read: C&P, Brothers K, Notes from Underground

>>11653308
I'm also right. A creator can exist, given the problem of natural evil, but an omnibenevolent creator cannot.

>>11649258
too good for god? fucking faggot

>>11654311
>theism is inherently outdated

>>11657492
Sacrifice and suffering is a necessary part of beeing able to see actual beauty and god, as you can see in the beauty of the middle ages, be is regarding sicnec, literature or art. Otherwise you get practically the moderns. People rather killing themselves than to face an ounce of moderate suffering, not getting kids or hedonism and not able to see ay beauty be it in nature, art or architecture, only able to grasp utility.

It can be an benevolent act to let someone suffer. There is a reason Catholics consider burdens to be a gift from good.

>>11657534
Young children being burned to death by volcanic eruptions isn't helping them see beauty, and if it helps someone else see beauty, then that's still a fucked way of going about that. If God is omnipotent, he can make people see beauty without killing children.

>>11657563
You die from the pyroclastic wave or fuems in a vulcanis eruption, retard. And yes, great suffering means great love and thanks for what little life you have unlike living a life far away from suffering and thinking that any kind of sacfrifice is too muc asked for.

God gave us the free will. To be truly a good person one has to be good despite having a hard life not thanks t it. Suffering os not a bad thing. Even thinking that makes you a historically illiterate pleb. In times of the greatest sadness, people become the most human. You want life without suffering from a god, but what makes you think he considers it something bad just because pain is involved? Pain is an usefull evolutionary tool. If pain would be objectivly bad, so would be nature. But nature, as gods tool, is neutral. You will be better served to see suffering as a tool for your character development.

And it's always rich seeing atheist and humanists screech about "someone think off the children!" when your deeds through thinks like the anti-baby pill and planet parenthood have destroyed more life than even the black plague and any natural desaster through human history combined.

>>11657630
I'm talking about death, not just pain. Natural disasters kill children. In any case, if God exists, with the attitude you attribute to him, he's basically just the villain in the Saw movies.

>>11657424
you can't legitimately be this stupid

>>11657650
>death
Everything living musst die. You should know as a proponent of ripping foetuses apart in their mothers womp to "prevent suffering".

Your understanding of the world is like that of a bacteria, you think suffering is bad, death is bad and therefore, both existing, means god is bad. Completly ignoring that if that all is the case, THIS WORLD is suffering and even the posibility of a God which gives you eternal lives in a paradise after it is the only thing you should strive for to leave it. Without god this system only makes man nihilistic and suicidal because taking your own life is preferable to living in their minds.

But I say, life is good, BECAUSE of suffering. And it's ironically always those which never really suffered which try to say how it has no good quality. Maybe one day you realise your errors. Maybe not. Doesn't change human and divine nature.

>>11657630
>justifying psychopathic torture of innocents because it is good for them to suffer
how many people are chained up in your basement, anon? be honest

>>11657436
>Every political system is a tyranny
If you think they are all EQUALLY tyrannical, you are intellectually brain dead

>>11657690
You're making a lot of assumptions about me. My argument is simply that God cannot be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, when children die from natural disasters. Whatever good that might accomplish, could easily be accomplished in a better way.

>>11657711
They all have the potential to be tyrannical.

If there are no checks to the power the ruler has, then they become tyrannical governments, whether they be a tyrannical monarchy or a tyrannical democracy. It just depends.

>>11657701
>pain is bad
You trully seem to not be able to grasp that concept. Are you by any change a non-white? Cause suffering and growing on that suffering is pretty much what made europeans the masters of the planet. Death formed us to grow our brains and become experts at everyting, including visiting space to flee the death of our home planet. Wihout that evolutionary pressure we would be abo tier negroes, merely to differentiate from flora and fauna.

It's always interesting how children, which have not yet lived and (((certain))) people try to make us become snow niggers.

>>11657717
He can be and I just explained you why multiple times in easy english, I can't take up the understanding for you as well.

>>11657720
>>11657726
You son of a bitch. Well trolled.

>>11657735
>well trolled
Go back to plebbit. You have to be over 18 to use 4chan.

>>11657757
There wouldn't be anyone here if that were true.

>>11657720
It says a great deal about you that you need to shift debate tactics based on what race you think I am. The endurance of necessary suffering is the source of meaning, however unnecessary suffering is just that, UNNECESSARY. Time to take your entire world view back to the drawing board you absolute sociopath

>>11657766
/lit/ is a christian board, you are merely visiting expecting everyone to have your views. The same thing which destroyed /his/.

>>11657777
Race is the most important factor in terms of probability when dealing with people and you thinking there is anything wrong with that and thinking there is unnecessary suffering is just a sign of you not beeing able to follow.

>>11657778
The irony is that you expect everyone to share your views. Here is a little hint, /lit/ or any other board on 4chan isn't your theological safe space. If you can't take your ideas being challenged maybe stay in sunday school

>>11657783
If there is no such thing as unnecessary suffering, than if you go out and deliberately cause people to suffer, you haven't done anything wrong, by your logic. You are completely devoid of any form of morality

>>11657786
I don't I simply respond to your lacking understanding. I know better than to try and change the views of people so sure about all of the universe and the meaning of life. That's called a discussion. You on the other hand absolutely see it as a way of getting christians to denounce god, which is shown as soon as your arguments get BTFOed and the only thing left is the exercise to call it trolling.

>>11657791
>if you go out and deliberately cause people to suffer, you haven't done anything wrong
>what is free will
It's like wanting to talk about astrophysic while not even understanding how rain comes to be. I'm off to work but thanks for again showing us all that atheist need a better knowledge of basic european culture.

>>11657805
>responding to my post
>assuming I was the one to call you a troll
wrong again, friend

>all suffering is necessary
>suffering is good for people
both things you have affirmed so far
>therefore if I cause people to suffer, I am doing good
you really are incapable of connecting the dots, aren't you?
also, pretty ironic of you to accuse others of being "so sure about all of the universe" when it is almost entirely the theological end of these discussions who make absolute and definite assertions about how things are. the entire point of my skepticism is precisely because there are mysteries that no human can possible comprehend, and yet those involved in theology claim to. again, you've been BTFO at every turn in this thread to the point where you literally have to run away. maybe you can learn and grow from this exchange, friend

>>11657824
>you really are incapable of connecting the dots, aren't you?
That's rich coming from a brainlet not even able to grasp the concept of free will.

I'm not sure, I believe. I think this is the ideal concept for europeans as shown by example for hundreds of years. You come and missrepresent and lack the rudimental basics, just trying to disprove a god. Usually somehing beeing done by people which aren't that sure of their opinions afterall. It's not scepticism TM to simply copy and paste not even luke warm atheism+ phrases. If you would be sceptical you would embrace christianity in a theological envoirement to learn about your "enemy". ou have an ideologie, just like me.

>paying for your gibsmedats is runninig away
Believe me when I say, I would rather just use them as renewable energy than waste my taxes and time on them. See ya.

>>11657844
I have a great deal of experience in a theologically christian environment. Again, you display your absolutely debased mode of thinking by saying I was trying to disprove god. I am not in the business of proving a negative, only pointing out that there is no reason to positively believe in it.

You have said there is no such thing as unnecessary suffering. You also said suffering is good for people. Therefore if you cause other people to suffer more, you have done a good act. You are incapable of following a syllogism

Also your second rate "le atheism+" memes are weak. Read more of the Greeks.

>>11649258
How is that even possible? If you're not moved by the theology then he reads like Fielding sans wit.

>>11657870
>It is good that people die, so the population can evolve and everyone having enough resources.
>"So ya sayin, killing people is good? Checkmate theist!"

>This whole thread.
Wew

do I HAVE to believe in god? Sunday church was always boring and so is the concept of god, the infinite and everlasting life. Can't I just have one death? Why would anyone want to prolong it forever and ever and ever? One instant of pure, exalted, mind-splitting joy is better than an eternity of starting again and again in a long stream of banality and 'goodness'

>>11649247
You commies expect me to read Stalin's favorite author.

>>11649247
God or Dostoevsky?

>>11658330
>still missing the point about necessary vs unnecessary
I don't think there's any hope for you

>>11655809
combining argument there buddy

Worst thread on the site

>>11649258
Same

>>11649247
>Why do atheists like to pretend?
Sort of answers itself OP.

>>11649247
Analyzed Nietzchean philosophy through and through and BTFO of it before sad german wannabe Schpoenhauer even put his pen to paper.

Why do atheists like to pretend he doesn't exist?

>>11653114
and what does it say that N remained atheist despite studying dosto?

>>11649258
same here. I love the speech in C&P about God accepting the drunks on judgement day because they never believed they deserved it. Not religious but it made me feel better all the same.

why do theists like to pretend god exists?
*drops mic*