/lit/ - Literature

He is right in everything, yes. And its beautiful in all its glory

>>11646638
Just looking to be contradictory for views and rebel appeal. Nothing to see here.

looks and sounds like a faggot.

>>11646638
Half the stuff he complains about his good (appreciation for hierarchy, reactionary politics, objective morality), the rest misses the point.
Tolkien doesn't glorify war, he basically self inserts into the story when he has Faramir saying “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

Basically, it's the usual leftist drivel: they dislike what is good, and they don't actually read or understand what they disagree with.

The guy is a lenin apologist. Of course he doesn't like hierarchies and absolute morality.

>>11646638
> Hey kids, you may be wondering who I am. My name is china.. he he; funny right?
> I'm quite a wise person. I'm not sure how it happened but somehow I just gathered more experience than
> many of these fools around me and I understand moral and political complexity better than the naive, ossified writers
> from before my time. What it comes down to is not blindy following the old precepts. People were quite stupid
> in the past, no wonder: they had no wikipedia and no TED talks to educate themselves.
> Do you like my ear decorations by the way, you probably don't understand their symbolism but don't worry,
> most don't.

>glorying in war
did this guy only watch the movies or something?

He is right in his descriptive claims, wrong on the normative

>>11646638
He's 100% wrong and a 100% beta-faggot tool engineered by a strict combination of drugs and indoctrination.

He will never escape, but you still can. Don't drink the kool-aid.

>>11646638
He is right about ONE point he made: elves and dwarves and other cliches really are the near-literal cancer that's killing all fantasy. Tolkien did them fine, but the swarms of absolute hack writers that came after him have fucked them all over.

>>11646638
> his boys-own-adventure glorying in war
tolkien doesn't glorify war at all. the battle scenes in lotr are quite short compared to the rest of the text. i could also point to the gray marshes or sam's internal monologue when he watches the oliphant riders die and wonders about where they came from and what brought them this far as direct evidence that tolkien despised conflict. perhaps china only watched the movies?

>his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos
tolkien repeatedly chides the hobbits for being small minded and only caring about the status quo. if he voted today in america, tolkien would be a member of the green party.

>absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity
saruman, boromir, denethor, gollum, and frodo himself are all examples of well written morally gray characters

>Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses
because a bunch of hacks ripped him off that's somehow tolkien's fault? is it shakespeare's fault that everyone rips off hamlet?

>He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation'
he also wrote that the primary purpose in writing the lord of the rings that he wanted to write a really long tale that delighted the readers. perhaps china should try delighting anyone but himself.

china mieville is an under-educated hack who seems more interested in "shaking up the establishment" than writing a good story. his hatred of tolkien is a textbook example of what bloom calls the "anxiety of influence". i.e. he is trying desperately to escape tolkien's shadow and will do anything, even saying nonsense, to make it seem like he is weird and different.

>>11647379
>china mieville is an under-educated hack
I think it's the opposite. It's over-education that produces communists and ideologues like himself.

>>11647379
>if he voted today in america, tolkien would be a member of the green party.

>>11646638
>Stop writing about war.

>>11646638
Shit writer. Shit world views. Not surprised.

>>11646638
SEETHING

>>11646638

> dumps on Tolkien thirty years after Michael Moorcock did it, and fifty years after Fritz Leiber did it

bravo

>>11648091
And they were just as wrong.

>>11646638
>his boys-own-adventure glorying in war
>glorying in war
Tolkien never did this. His pages drip with the existential horror that is war, probably thanks in no small part to his actually experiencing it first-hand. No one who fought at the Somme would glorify war. Fucking China is a hack.
>>11647386
>It's over-education that produces communists and ideologues like himself.
It's an abundance of education and a death of critical thought. He just regurgitating the postmodern frames he learned in his lit classes without actually thinking whether or not it's appropriate to apply them to Tolkien at all.

>>11646638
He is an idiot. Genuine worthless trash.

It must be hard for progressive fantasy writers to know that the greatest author in their genre was a reactionary. Weird fiction writers must feel the same about Lovecraft.

At least they have science fiction. Isaac Asimov was always a communist so there is no need to attack him for his politics.

I hope he gets metooed soon like that fuck Junot Diaz.

>>11648157
>Implying the greatest Sci-Fi writer isn’t a reactionary catholic
What’s even more ironic is that one of Mieville’s greatest influences is Wolfe. Wonder how he feels about the Autarchy and Severians fantastic tale adventures

>>11648258
*fantastic rape adventures

>>11646726
Totalitarians despise authority, because they don't think it goes far enough. They don't want the government to be an assortment of human beings working to enforce law and order for the protection of society. They want the government to become a god walking upon earth that crushes the souls of men beneath its feet.

>>11648304
t. Rothbard

>>11648313
I'm not a libertarian. I'm just not a totalitarian ideologue.

>>11648099
nope.

>not reading Tolkieboy for linguistic pleasures

pleb

>>11646638
>Tolkien
>glorifying war
I'll join other ITT and say that all the other points are positives if anything.

>>11648304
They hate personal but also socially intermediary powers (town liberties from the bigger state, churches guarantees, pater familias handling family affairs internally, ...) because they are already in the way of the generalized control.
There is also the issue of English calling both autocritas and potesdas "authority". Obeying your father out of filial piety isn't the same and often the opposite of obeying state regulations.

>>11646638
What kind of name is China? lol absolute faggot

>>11648157
Except Asimov is a hack of extremely low literary merit.
Jules Verne is the true pioneer and Dick is the master of science fiction. Neither fit the contemporary bugmen.

>>11648258
Between Tolkien and Wolfe, and a few others, there's an argument to be made that the best genre fiction writers are all reactionaries.

>>11648157
>progressive
>communist
?

>>11646638
China is the kind of guy who pays another man to fuck his girl so he can see them and jack off

>>11648776
all in the name of the revolution, comrade!

>>11648733
>there's an argument to be made that the best genre fiction writers are all reactionaries.
C-Correct?

>>11646638
>cod-Wagnerian pomposity
Tolkien does have a bit of a problem where his enthusiasm seizes his vocabulary at times.

>boys-own-adventure glorying in war
When the hell does he to that? In virtually all the battles (which are written in a very understated way; the movies blew them up immensely) it's absolutely hopeless for the protagonists, and the in the great final battle the only thing that saves them is a critical moral victory elsewhere. Pretty much every "good" army only goes out to fight on the understanding that they're all going to be slaughtered, but they have to do it anyway.

>small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality
All of which are entrenched in his idea of religion, so it's no use criticising him about that.

>blurs moral and political complexity
You could argue that LOTR is written as a medieval romance. Deep political machinations are hardly the focus.

>Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings
They're only cliches because he popularised them.

>the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.
This guy has absolutely no idea what "consolation" means.

>>11646638
He sounds like an insufferable faggot. What kind of shit does he write and how is it better than Tolkien's work?

>>11648965
He wrote a comic book once.

>>11646638
>criticizes something written nearly 100 years ago as if it were written today
>absolute morality is bad, i know because i can tell you what is absolutely fact
>calls someone else small-minded, uses the word complexity in a criticism of anything, then blames tolkien for creating self-serving escapist fantasy
Another braindead jackass who misinterpreted post-modernism and had one too many college professors overly impressed at their ability to make students think the same shit instead of telling them they were fucking idiots who needed to figure out how to think.
>google search
>this guy is a famous author
Honestly not really surprised, the status quo of modern humanities has basically become proving who has conflated simple rationality with analysis to a greater degree.

>>11648727
It's a hippie name.

>>11648965
It's not better than Tolkien, well it's a matter of opinion. But, his fiction tries to run from the Tolkien's shadow. Actually alot of fantasy writers does that nowadays: Steven Erikson (Malazan), Brandon Sanderson (Mistborn etc...). They recognize the Tolkien's influence but don't want to be directly influenced by him.

God, I want to punch him in the face.

>>11646638
>Complaining about a literal WW1 veteran writing about war

What an absolute faggot

>>11649364
>Actually alot of fantasy writers does that nowadays

And its all absolute shit once the initial gimmick fades. Just like Game of Thrones

>>11649463
But sticking true to Tolkien's text is absolute shit as well, because none of the writers are such well-educated and intelligent and enthusiastic academics who'd want to spend decades to worldbuild first.

So what can you do at all, in the end, to not be shit?

>>11649484
Don't write genre shit and come up with something new. Tolkein defined a genre, he didn't write in a genre

>>11646638
Calling Tolkien a fantasy author is pretty insulting towards Tolkien. He didn't write genre fiction garbage like all these insecure plebs who criticize him do.

>>11646638
Mieville is misdiagnosing the problem, The Lord of the Rings isn't the first fantasy novel, it's the last manifestation of (anglo) European culture. The reason why all Tolkien's imitators fail is not because they imitate (or react against) Tolkien, it's because they can't access the cultural world that Tolkien wrote within.

>>11649494
Nope he didn't define a genre, fantasy fiction existed before Tolkien and it was really good. What he created was this archetype of RPG that everyone uses.

>>11646638
>it's a modern writer doesn't realize Tolkien was in love with old myths and was trying to construct a myth of his own
I thought writers were supposed to be intelligent?

>>11649728
>fantasy fiction existed before Tolkien

Not in the scope and intensity with which Tolkein imbued. He was the first true "world builder" in a serious sense

>>11649738
i mean there was dunsany and e r eddison ....

>>11648733
Wouldn't call Frank Herbert one.

>>11649742
Overly derivitive.

>>11646638
I can see why a guy with such a fucked up face would say so many stupid things without possibility of any valid argument....but why did you have to repeat what he said?

seriously who is this? this guy is a fucking retard. What, he read Infinite Jest once?

>>11646638
cringe

>>11647379
>if he voted today in america, tolkien would be a member of the green party
why did you have to wipe out on such a spurious and stupid assertion?

>>11649738
Yeah I agree with you. The genre before Tolkien was kind of weird. There is this poem called The Goblin Market wich has alot of erotic stuffs. But as >>11649742 said there were Lord Dunsanny and E.R Eddison. These two were great and even Tolkien said good stuffs about E.R Eddison work.

>>11648953
>Tolkien does have a bit of a problem where his enthusiasm seizes his vocabulary at times.
he was a LINGUIST. Sit down and take the lesson.

>>11649744
what, a great fiction writer?
Maybe his technique is awkward, but his vision is superb.
He told a very good story and actually contributed to philosophy.

>>11646638
>Stacy is the wen on the arse of nopfap challenges. Her butt is massive and eyecatching- you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to fuck it. And there's a lot to fuck- her blonde hair, her perky tits swaying as she walks, her feminine hips and her love for the dick, her belief in absolute sex that blurs moral and political complexity. Stacy's clichés - cosplay 'n' ponyplay - have spread like viruses. She wrote that the function of sex was 'to make men cum', thereby making it an article of mutual satisfaction that a good whore should mollycoddle the Chad.

>>11649786
Wouldn't call him a right-winger, I mean. I love the man's writing, as awkward as it could be at times.

I was re-reading Dune recently and actually chuckled at this line:

>The spirit of Muad'Dib is more than words, more than the letter of the Law that arises from his name. Muad'Dib must always be that inner outrage against the complacently powerful, against the charlatans and the dogmatic fanatics. It is that inner outrage that must have its say because Muad'Dib taught us one thing above all others: that humans can endure only in a fraternity of social justice.

This is the Fedaykin Compact, which makes Muad'Dib's fearsome death commandos literal unironic Social Justice Warriors. Long live the fighters!

>>11649794
>It is that inner outrage that must have its say because Muad'Dib taught us one thing above all others: that humans can endure only in a fraternity of social justice.
anybody who has this mindset want to explain it? It sounds unpleasant as fuck to me

>>11646638
Tolkein captured the essence of european culture in that book
No wonder muttboi here cant understand

>>11648839
Ellroy is just taking the piss.

>>11649797
A concept of justice is pretty universal, it's just that different people understand it differently. Most people don't like seeing other people starve in the streets, though some will choose to blame those people for their misfortune. It also makes a lot of sense in the context of how Fremen live their lives, too, how their communities are geared towards the survival of the tribe in the extremely harsh conditions of Arrakis. They even have a weak form of spice-induced communal telepathy, sietch tau.

>>11648099
you're a big fan of A.A. Milne, aren't you?

>>11649794
Herbert had some problems with homo right?
Baron Harkonnen was gay and I have seen some people said that Herbert made the Baron homosexual because he didn't like homos.

>>11649815
i mean the outrage bit, i have ltierally never felt that. I feel sad when I see people mistreated or otherwise suffering, but I dont feel anger at the person comitting the crime, I mostly just am kind of melancholic about the situation.

And dont get me wrong i beleive in defending yourself against would be predators, lethally if necessary, but the thought is not pleasant at all, and I dont want them dead, i just kind of wish they didnt exist.

>>11649791
Melville btfo. He's harmlessly insulting things that are a matter of contention and taste. I don't think it's even particularly honest of him to write as he did. Everyone has a crack at Stacy's butt. Some move on, some don't. It's okay.

>>11649817
Yeah. I'm not a homophobe but I can forgive stuff like that, doesn't really bother me. There's also a pretty cute exchange in God-Emperor where Moneo tells Dunkan that all armies are homosexual by nature, which Dunkan absolutely HATES.

Also here's a pretty lefty Herbert's quote:

>The thing we must do intensely is be human together. People are more important than things. We must get together. The best thing humans can have going for them is each other. We have each other. We must reject everything which humiliates us. Humans are not objects of consumption. We must develop an absolute priority of humans ahead of profit — any humans ahead of any profit. Then we will survive. … Together.
At least I don't imagine a right-winger saying that.

>>11649821
I guess it depends on the intensity of your feelings. And, again, we're talking about literal death commandos here. The Jihad was not a pretty sight.

>>11646638
China is critical with Tolkien but he said good things about him too.

This article:
http://sf-fantasy-books.blogspot.com/2009/06/china-mieville-on-jrr-tolkien.html

China really liked how Tolkien created his monsters, and how he deals with fear and terror.

>>11649828
you personally do you get that though, an outrage that actually feels good, a desire to go change the world and whatnot?

>>11649835
I'm kind of an apathetic person, I guess, which is not very good but eh.

>>11649828
Yep I agree with you. I don't have any problem with his prejudice. It was his opinion after all.
Also, amazing quote. Herbert definitely wasn't a right-winger.

>>11649794
>monarchist
>not reactionary
wew you sure do have target fixation trying to categorize things into "left and right"

>>11649828
>We must develop an absolute priority of humans ahead of profit — any humans ahead of any profit.
i think this doesn't actually work like he wants. The problem is humans are very bad in a lot of ways, call it original sin, call it evopsych, whatever. We need something greater than ourselves to focus on, which is where religion comes in.

to be honest though i dont think we can really control this stuff. there are religious periods and materialist periods, there is always a spectrum with different people, and it all just kind of continues along in its very complex dance. nobody sitting down and thinking about it can really effect a real change. Except maybe people like Jesus or Mohammed who have this enormous extrapolated effect over centuries, but idk, they could just be fulfilling a function that something similar would have occupied.

>>11649930
>where religion comes in.

Oh, religion? Right, when you said about humans being very bad I instinctively thought about Thomas Hobbes and the State.

>>11649695
>it's the last manifestation of (anglo) European culture
What the fuck does that even mean?

>>11649917
I don't know why'd you call Frank a monarchist when the central idea of Dune is "don't put your faith in a single strong leader". He was also critical of democracy, yes, but overall I wouldn't really call him monarchist.

>>11649930
He wasn't really anti-religious:
>What I'm saying in my books boils down to this: Mine religion for what is good and avoid what is deleterious. Don't condemn people who need it. Be very careful when that need becomes fanatical.

>>11649943
Religion is a like a little dictator compelling certain forms of behaviour, so you are not really far off with Hobbes.
>>11649959
That is not really religion though, that is just humanism. I get that it functions as a religion psychologically, but religions should speak to metaphysical things to really be religions and not just ideologies.

>>11649831
I hate his fucking name, what kind of faggot names his kid like that?

>>11649966
I don't see how it is? A lot of moral concepts can be defined through metaphysics. It's the easiest way to define them. If you're saying that it's a humanist view on religion than yeah, but does it matter in the end?

>>11649972
i guess the terms being used dont matter that much, i dont really care what we call them

but i think there is a real difference between something like humanism, and a specific relgiion like Christianity, Islam, or some form of HIndu. There is a call to worship something that is not just you, that you can't really arrive at just by thinking, and that is not centred on just humans.

Maybe i am wrong, but i feel there is a difference, and will try to articulate it better after thinking some more.

>>11649993
Well we still give some human qualities to these beings, no matter how much we try not to (and older religions like Hinduism often don't even do that, being perfectly comfortable with flawed, human gods). Even Christian god, as incomprehensible and inhuman as he is supposed to be, is love. And he sent us Jesus, his son, who was half-human and who taught us many very "humanist" things. There's a difference in that religion is not rational, it requires faith, sure, but most religions naturally give you some support and some values that makes sense at the very least if you consider the time period when that religion emerged or was codified.

>>11650016
I see your points anon, maybe my distinction is just bred from biases i haven't properly examined.

I am really not sure what to think these days, everything seems up in the air

>>11649970
His parents actually.

>>11650058
That's how it always is, I'm sure. If you look back at history there wasn't some golden age, there was always turmoil. Empires grew and fell apart, wars ravaged the Old World (and the New World as well, though we tend to know and care less about those), religious wars and wars for fun and profit. Newer generations inevitably disappointed the old ones and vice versa. The history just doesn't end, as much as we want it to sometimes.

>>11650087
>some golden age
i do believe in golden ages in specific things, like what the Germans did with music from around 1600-1800 was honestly something pretty special

But in general i don't see things that way, i think human suffering is usually pretty stable in aggregate.

There are differences though, between periods of rising, expanding, civilizations, and periods of decline and collapse.

also wrt the New World, we actually do have quite a bit of info about some of their civilizations, and it was fascinating stuff. I think the mostly inadvertent destruction of their cultures through disease is one of the greatest tragedies in all of human history

>>11650016
Jesus wasn't "half-human" he was totally human and God at the same time

>>11646638
He smack talks Tolkien, but his book the Iron Council is just a riff on Inverted World.

He's not opposed to digging up old shit when it pleases him.

>>11646638
>his cod-Wagnerian pomposity
>his boys-own-adventure glorying in war
>his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos
fucking modernist bugman. also if it were merely about preserving the familiar status-quo then the steward of gondor would still be on the throne at the end of the film.
>his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity
completely true
>Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses
thats not a criticism of tolkien though, its a criticism of his descendants not being creative enough to innovate. anything good enough to become such widely used tropes and cliches has succeeded.
>He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.
not every tolkein clone adheres to this (warhammer) but yeah its not great

>>11650117
and also somehow the holy spirit right? pls help

>>11650110
>i think human suffering is usually pretty stable in aggregate
That's a bit pessimistic. The world today is not perfect, but we do live much better on average. The wast majority of the world in the beginning of the XIX century lived in extreme poverty, over 90%. Now it's like 10%. The healthcare is better, too. The XX wasn't a tranquil one, first came the Great War, the war to end all wars as people were sure, where wonders of industry turned battlefields into meat grinders. And then came the other war which dwarfed even that. But now with the advent of nuclear weapons the wars between global powers became just a bit too costly, which is kind of a positive.

>>11650117
I'm sorry, I'm not really all that well versed in Christian dogmas.

>>11650165
yeah but we are extremely socially alienated. The immense advance in power that allowed all our current luxury also allowed dramatic reordering of traditional ways of living. People can be immensely fucked up now and things still keep rolling because of all this excess power we have.

There is honestly no way to measure this stuff, so it is a bit of a moot point,but i wanted to offer a counter to the narrative of 'things are getting better' which i am not always too sure about.

>>11650194
I'm mostly just really wary of "it's the end of the world" because yes, in some way it always is the end of the world as we know it, but that just means we constantly have to learn to live in the world we don't know. If anything, I'm really fascinated with progress, for good or bad. I was always a fan of sci-fi, not the spaceship and blasters kind (though that can be fun too), but the "technology changing society irreversibly" kind. Because yes, it does, and it's more rapid than ever. But maybe it's not all that bad.

>>11649957
It means the literary folk tradition that Tolkien studied is over.

>>11650248
technology is the Ai thing happens could genuinely be the end of the world, but i dont have a strong opinion on that, i just understand the idea

my ideas are kind of vague honestly man, i don't think they have too much worth for other people, i mostly think i am better when interacting in a not intellectual manner if that makes sense.

i do have a compulsion to think and write about these things though so it is nice that an anon such as yourself dialogues with me, you have good points, and you respond well to what i say

>>11650266
So what are we now

>>11650283
I don't think we have the capacity to create a true AI yet, but who knows what will happen next. Ultimately the future will happen regardless whether you look into it with fear or optimism, so I'd say the latter if preferable. Not the wide-eyed optimism of old sci-fi, where everybody gets a flying car and a ticket to Mars, but at least cautious optimism . Or maybe with curiosity, at least.

I like Internet, by the way. Sure it's easy to get lost in it, lost in a "parasocial relationship" (what a fascinating concept, by the way), but you can also have pseudo-anonymous discussion about anything with people you don't and won't know, no strings attached. You can watch some completely irrelevant stuff that will waste your time, but you can also educate and better yourself. It's a useful and versatile tool.

Aren't those all the points of creating a fantastic mythology? What the fuck is he trying to say?

>>11647379
>if he voted today in america, tolkien would be a member of the green party.
They're nuts, just like all small parties in the US. He just wouldn't vote.

I just can’t stand when brainlets critizise the Lord of the Rings for its many songs.

“Uh, it’s so dull, nothing is happening” – t. ADHD Youtube-Generationist

Yes, a song like “The road goes ever on” might not be something that one would write today and include it in a fantasy story – but besides creating an incredible atmosphere, it is by comparison, where the songs really show their importance.

While the Hobbits sing about hiking and drinking (and taking a bath) – very plain and innocent themes – let’s compare one of their songs to one of the elven songs:

>Hobbits - Bath song:
Sing hey! for the bath at close of day
that washes the weary mud away!
A loon is he that will not sing:
O! Water Hot is a noble thing!


O! Sweet is the sound of falling rain,
and the brook that leaps from hill to plain;
but better than rain or rippling streams
is Water Hot that smokes and steams.

>Elves – Hymn to Elbereth:
O Stars that in the Sunless Year
With shining hand by her were sown,
In windy fields now bright and clear
We see your silver blossom blown!


O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.

>And one song by men – Where now the Horse and the Rider:
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

These songs give deep insight into the thinking, the longing and the purest essence of the races of middle earth.

While the Hobbits know no power (which is why it is Frodo, who carries the Ring), the Elves lament the lost and better days (which is why they do not participate in the doings of men anymore and leave the continent) and men still struggle and seek salvation (which is why it is they, who wage war against Sauron).

The songs are deepest lore and the best part about the books.

Yes, even fucking Tom Bombadill.

>>11646638
>His parents separated soon after his birth, and he has said that he "never really knew" his father.

LMAO explains everything

>>11652033
>Yes, even fucking Tom Bombadill.
Tom Bombadill is the best pleb filter ever written.

>waaah I hate writers who focus on male characters and have a defined moral system
relativists are a cancer on modern society, fuck off you hack, also your name is a fucking country

>>11648091
I can't find anything about Lieber's criticism of Tolkien. Can you give me a title or link?

>>11648732
Hey, Asimov wrote some fun stories. He's no PKD but there's no denying he had a massive influence on sci-fi. He's still widely remembered all of these years after his death for a reason.

Is there anything more annoying than a hack disrespecting the geniuses who paved the way for him?

Don't you hate it when this 'tism spills out of the /sffg/ shithole?

>>11654278
Rowlings is very influential too with all these young adult series. I've read War40k fanfiction better than Asimov.

He's right that Tolkien's influence is toxic, but it's not his fault. I feel like he's just mad at people still trying hard to be Tolkien to this day.

>>11654887
What makes Asimov so bad in your eyes? His prose is simple and pulpy but so is PKD's. He had some interesting, original ideas that influenced great sci-fi authors. Rowling hasn't ever had an original idea and she has only influenced hacks.

>>11653757
I'm curious about it too. I have never heard about Lieber's criticism.

>>11654887
>I've read War40k fanfiction

>>11654887
Why did you read fanfiction? I'm proud to say the only fanfiction I've ever read is My Immortal.

>>11654361
Fuck off

>>11649828
>>11649843
That quote could be Catholic. It is right wing in its base value.

>fantasy literature
who cares
>muh reactionary nerds
who cares
>this genre of masscult that i consume needs to be like more woker-er and stuff
wow damn dude that's groundbreaking tell me more

>>11652033
good post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YTBgFmK_bs

>>11649736
if the population of this board is any indicator then there is no fucking way that could be true

but it's good

>>11646638
who has huger arms? Melville or Tolken?

>>11656898
China does but he's hung like a Chinaman.

>>11646638
Oh hey, I almost forgot how much I hate left-wing "people," thanks for reminding me.

>>11646638
Communists should be locked in small rooms the size of cabinets and starved to death. I wish we could establish a sort of giant facility where we keep millions of these people, any of them whenever they are detected, and starve them to death on camera. I would watch the footage of it on 20x speed every night before going to sleep.

>>11646695
based

China Miéville's The City and the City is an awesome novel. That book doesn't reflect it, but I love how his literary inspiration is the D&D Monster Manual.

>>11657765
>M-muh starvation
Get a new meme.

>>11650117
Thanks for mentioning it, anon. Full human ,full God, indeed.

>>11657944
Commies don't eat though...

>>11657944
It's an eternally relevant meme, commie.

>>11657890
I cant have respect with a man with such a stupid name. Sorry.

>>11646638
Nah, Tolkein's local to me as a Midlander, I've read his biographies and seen the places that gestated his work, I've grown up around him and I'm intimately familiar with the man.

Tolkein was first and foremost a Linguist and philologist; fluent speaker of many languages including dead ones, and did a lot of translation work from dead languages, particularly in poetry and stories.

Baldy here isn't even a quarter of the academic J.R.R was, or a tenth of the man; Tolkein fought at The Somme, he knew what war was like few men still alive do.

>>11646638
isn't this a bit like saying homer is the wen on the arse of the western canon

>>11647386
you mean over-socialization

>>11659705
Pretty much. Whether China likes it or not Tolkien has been the very foundation of fantasy literature for over 60 years and his influence hasn't waned at all. There's been a lot more "muh grey morality everyone is flawed" shit lately but even that takes quite a lot out of Tolkien's handbook. China is the literary equivalent of an angsty teenager who spits on his grandfather for not perfectly conforming to modern political trends.

>>11646638
Who is this geek?

>>11659842
A hardcore communist who writes genre fiction and loves to whine about how the authors who paved the way for him are problematic.

>>11648157
dumb american

>>11660699
How is what he said dumb?

>>11657944
I don’t need one.

>>11656898
Tolkien was right-wing and a soldier. China is a weak leftist (joke, Leftism=weakness) sonthe affair is pretty clear. Tolkien would’ve put this faggot kike enabler in a headlock and twisted his braincase off like a bottle cap effortlessly.

Modern genre writers are eterna-cucked because they are working in a hilarious shadow.

Tolkien wrote his work half a century ago, making something new that referred to myth, religion, folklore, the grand scale of his contemporary world of war. LOTR is a kind of literature for where it exists.

Writing about some crazy techno-city is writing nowhere. There's no tradition to anyone writing genre but following in the footsteps of Shelley, Tolkien, Wells.

What IS the new genre? Can you see it? Can you feel it? Where is it that takes us somewhere but not here but isn't nowhere? If the whole world is a cartoon then what is fantastical? Who wants to hear another ridiculous Kisbazom or Zalador or Ledwyll? These things are tired machinations.

>>11658224
>>11658993
Where lol? Holodomor is a meme. China had natural disasters, and always had, causing famines for centuries. After all that collectivisation and initial famine (from natural causes), there were no more famines.

>>11662635
Yes you do. At least point out the great man theory of MLs or how it degenerated into state capitalism. Everything else is a dumb meme.

As someone who lives in a divided city and studies divided/post-conflict cities, I can say with confidence after reading city and the city that he has never lived in a divided city

>>11646638

Edgy fatherless private school educated Marxist has stupid adolescent opinions, imagine my shock

>>11646638
>his boys-own-adventure glorying in war says the liberal arts student to a veteran of the Somme

>>11650150
The Holy Spirit is a separate divine person of the Holy Trinity. Jesus Christ is the Son of God (but in the bible refers to himself extensively as the Son of Man to emphasise his humanity)

>>11663779
>liberal arts student
China graduated over 20 years ago lol. Also Bachelor of Arts =/= Liberal Arts (which is the study of arts and sciences). Do conservadumbs hate Liberal Arts because it has liberal in it?

Tolkien also studied Arts (Classics and English), you fucking conservaturd.

>Miéville is active in left-wing politics in the UK and has previously been a member of the International Socialist Organization (US), and the short-lived International Socialist Network. He was formerly a member of the Socialist Workers Party and in 2013 became a founding member of Left Unity.[1] He stood for Regent's Park and Kensington North for the Socialist Alliance in the 2001 UK General election, gaining 1.2% of votes cast. He published his PhD thesis on Marxism and international law as a book.

yikes.

>shaved head
>metal shit hanging out of his ear
>hunched posture
>weak glare
>faux-confident smirk
>dirty hobo undershirt
>teenager zip hoodie

If Tolkien ever met this guy, he'd give him a pitying consolatory pat on the shoulder while palming him some alms, and making a mental note to call the local insane asylum to see if a schizophrenic patient is on the loose.

>>11648806
That's a rather large nose.

>>11663793
He's a public schoolboy, moreover he attended Cambridge and Harvard. Tolkien actually struggled from an early age with a turbulent home life, studying in a state comprehensive but earning a place in a public school on a scholarship. It was the Officer Corp that allowed him to flourish his intellectual pursuits.

China stinks of the desperate performance that only bougie converts put into their writing. Give over mate

>>11663822
>when you develop class consciousness of a class you don't belong to

>>11663830
>>11663822
He's a trot. What do you expect?

But I don't think bourgie converts (unless he owns MoP, he's not literally bourgeois) are useless because my mother is petit bourgeois, and it does the world better if she doesn't think she can walk over people, giving 'low' jobs to others because she 'worked hard' until that point.

Of course, it has not *much* use if a boss is slightly less of a cunt. The goal is to radicalise the workers, but, until then, every small thing counts.

>>11646695
based and redpilled

>>11647379
>if he voted today in america, tolkien would be a member of the green party.
No he fucking wouldn't you utter brainlet, he was politically conservative in the 1920s

>>11663855
Everything you own was manufactured by literal slaves overseas, mostly in labor camps run by Communist parties. The only actual "workers" you've ever met are plumbers and carpenters who earn way more than you do at your shitty customer service job who think you're a commie fag.

>>11663830
wow, hard to believe a grown man would think this photo was a good idea

>>11649828
He's a fucking monarchist lmao stop trying to claim him

>>11663727
hurr durrrr

>>11663880
Nah. I know that tradies are full of shit, and usually just whiny middle class people.

Service workers are still workers, so you just told me I'm the real worker lmao.

>>11663905
You think working at maccas compares to putting electronic component #3 into slot #7 on some assembly line nightmare in China? And those are the GOOD jobs in those areas.
If you live in a western country, and aren't homeless, you are a member of the international bourgeois.

>>11662655
raced and bedpilled

>>11648776
>a bull in a china shop

>>11650299
rick and morty late capitalism dystopia culture

>>11657765
cringe

>>11664462
Kek

What a stupid fucking presentist cunt. Ugly ass shallow little mind.

>>11646638
He's gay and so are you. I could tell he is a pitiful ideologue who lets that color his idea of art, and I googled him and he is a socialist.

>>11663816
This got a solid laugh out of me

>>11663816
kek

We stand on the shoulders of giants.

Vast, green, and fertile – good earth to stand on, sit on, and root ourselves on. Many do just that, and never let go: they swing gently in the wind, smile in contentment, never even stop to wonder what they might be standing on, or how much they truly owe to the giant. Some of them may themselves grow great, one day, and grow new life on their own shoulders. But most of them remain small.

Others still, such as you, if you are here now, grow fully aware of their foundations. You uproot yourself, and you walk on these great shoulders. You look down into the clouds beyond the earth. At this stage you can never again simply root yourself back: you know too much.

Now you may shrug your shoulders and stay right here, accepting your place in the world, and the role of the giant propping you up. And that will be the end of that. You may grow, or not.

Or you may grow curious. You wonder just what is down below, beneath those clouds... just what is this giant himself standing on?

Or instead you may grow angry. You come to hold the opinion that this giant does not deserve one bit of all your reverence and worship: that the giant is in fact a fraud and must be discredited, denounced, and shunned. Perhaps it's because you've come to believe that the giant slouches, has a hunched back, or brittle bones. Or perhaps that the giant is mad, and will one day fall on his own. Or a whole number of other reasons and excuses.

If you're loud enough, some may come to follow you. They see where you're coming from: they've seen the same signs, or are easily convinced to see them by you now. Most likely, however, the vast majority of your peers simply ignore you: they owe enough to the giant to not be too bothered, though you may have gotten them uprooted and into the curious state mentioned above.

You may pick up a stick and go all the way to poke the giant's eye, but that is a lost cause. The giant cannot be felled that way: his roots lay deep, deep below, far beyond your reach. Most likely he won't even notice you.

To hell with this, you say. Already uprooted and still pissed, you decide to walk right to the edge of the shoulder and jump right down. If you were loud enough, perhaps you will get others to jump with you. Or you may have been one of the curious ones, and jump simply to see what you will land on.

Great perils await you here. You will float through the skies and the void, beyond the clouds, and you will get to see bizarre and disconnected visions. You may be lost here, and never again find root in anything. Or you may land on something, but it is dark and covered in mist... and you will wander and end up lost here instead.

>>11665178
But if you overcome these challenges and learn to see beyond the dark and dispel the mist, you will find a terrible truth: you have landed on another giant, far more vast and ancient than any you could ever have imagined. This is what the giant you yourself came from is standing on! You see others like him rooted here, some small, others bigger than even your own giant!

You may now reel with shock. Or perhaps you knew of this already, and can accept it.

So now what?

Was your grudge only with the giant you yourself started from, and jumped off of? If that is the case, then well enough: perhaps you may find fertile land here, and root yourself somewhere to the shoulders of this greater giant. You may one day grow as big as he is, and nod respectfully at him.

Or, now that you're down here, maybe you can go and strike that giant right into the roots, right into where it hurts! You may do more harm from here than from above... but the giant is still vast, and you still tiny. Perhaps if you yourself grew larger, you could meet the giant on his level, and punch him right in his stupid face.

Alternatively, perhaps your problem was with the giants as a whole, and you want to stand on the shoulders of no one at all? Or perhaps you were curious to begin with, and curious still to keep on going and see how far this can go? Then feel free to jump off again.

You should now be ready to the challenges you faced before: the voids, and the mist. You will likely find more ground – another shoulder, another forest of giants big and small. You may end up liking this giant, and root here, or you may keep on going, lower down, and then lower still.

But how low CAN you go?

One day, perhaps, you will come upon earth that simply does not end. Ground that keeps on going forever, without another cliff to jump down by. What does that mean? Does it mean that you have at last found the earth, and your quest is completed? Or does it mean that you stand on a truly primordial giant indeed, one whose girth you cannot begin to comprehend, let alone travel?

Either way, at least you've come pretty damn far down. You can look up in pride, at the feet of the giants you came from. You have likely grown up a fair bit now already, and perhaps if you keep on going, you can stand on the same level as them, and see what they see. And now you owe nothing to no one.

Or maybe you'd rather grab an axe and chop the whole fucker down. Your choice.

>>11646638
What a big gay wiener.

>>11649738
Wrong and gay

>>11657765
Please get help

>>11664258
That's absolutely not what bourgeois means, and how hard a job is doesn't change its nature.
2/10 couldn't even make a point

>>11662655
>Right wing strong
>left wing weak
>Me strong
>ooga booga

>>11646638
God imagine working in a medium where J.R.R. fucking Tolkien was your final boss. A literal 'me grandad by the fire place.' The absolute state of untermensch fantasy boys.

>>11665292
Not wrong and straight, gayboy

>>11646638
All that hooplah only has any weight in retrospect. Can people really not judge things in context?

>>11646741
>why in the fuck are you
>posting like this? are you
>retarded or something, Anon?

>>11663727
Ah yes, "natural disasters".

>>11663894
how the hell is he a monarchist when the whole point of Dune was "do not blindly trust your leaders, they'll fuck up and you'll fuck up too"

oh and if you're a poltard you're going to love this quote:
>Dune was aimed at this whole idea of the infallible leader because my view of history says mistakes made by a leader (or made in a leader's name) are amplified by the numbers who follow without question. That's how 900 people wound up in Guyana drinking poison Kool-Aid. That's how the U.S. said "Yes, sir, Mister Charismatic John Kennedy!" and found itself embroiled in Vietnam. That's how Germany said "Sieg Heil!" and murdered more than six million of our fellow human beings.

>>11666342
Frank Herbert worked as a speech writer for the Republican party. He was literally a Nazi.

>>11646638
>china
Who?

>>11666342
Ugh what a fucking boomer.

>>11646638
>you know he's right
he sounds like a jealous little loser.

wahhh, tolkien is beloved by children and men everywhere!!! wahh!!! why cant I be as influential as him??? I'll tell him why: because these structures of narrative and of traditional hierarchies and roles existed long before Tolkien and will exist after Mieville. the lord and his vassals, knights, courtly love, heroism in battle, coming-of-age adventure, evil wizards and tricksters... these things are go back to earliest fiction, and are immortal on the human soul.

Mieville is a faggot and a brainlet who needs to get over himself.
>He published his PhD thesis on Marxism and international law as a book.
Oh... well I guess he's incurable. I hate this guy and I haven't even read any of his shitty books.

>>11666412
Nazis were socialists, you idiot.

>>11649364
>Brandon Sanderson (Mistborn etc...)
i liked it

>>11666342
that's gonna be a yikes from me senpai

>>11666723
Fine. He was literally a Fascist.

>>11649038
Tolkien's work on "The Fall of Gondolin" began in 1916 if I remember right.

>wahhh Shakespeare sucks cause everyone copied hamlet!!!

>>11666412
>Herbert was appalled to learn of McCarthy's blacklisting of suspected Communists from working in certain careers and believed that he was endangering essential freedoms of citizens of the United States.

>>11666950
oh no

>>11646638
I hate this fucking faggot and his tryhard purple prose so goddamn much.

I read Perdido Street Station and thought it was shit and then tried something else of his after it was recommended and it was the same garbage. He doesn't get a third strike.

>China Mieville
>Relevant
Holy fucking shit what year is this

>>11668488
>essential freedoms
That sounds like some Republican talk. You aren't a redneck libertarian, are you?