/lit/ - Literature

>>11545934
Philokalia?

>>11545934
>Believes in Double Procession of the Holy Spirit
kek

>>11545934
church fathers

>>11545934
Honestly, they don't have it.

>>11545934
Anything by Vladimir Lossky.
Look up the works of John Meyendorff
Gregory Palamas' is essential for the Essence Energy distinction.

>>11546126

>>11545934

>>11545934
Saint John of Damascus's Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith

>>11546139
There's literally no philosophy in this chart

>>11546163
Define philosophy.

>>11546168
A science that's not baded on revelation, but reason would be an important part of it. Philosophy comes to know and starts from reflection upon the world, while theology starts with the revealed truths which cannot be gathered by natural reason alone. They often intertwine, but none of the works in the chart are even primarily philosophical.

>>11545934
The Orthodox Church has abandoned philosophy in its irrational attempt to distance itself from Catholicism. They'll at best give you theology with a bit of philosophy mixed in, but you won't get anything in the line of Aquinas's philosophy of nature or metaphysics, even less anything that would be considered pure philosophy by modern standards.

>>11546211
You won't find much of that because Orthodoxy is overwhelmingly based on revelation in contrast to the Catholic idea of philosophy being married to theology.
The philosophy part comes from its engagement with the Roman Catholic thought. Topics such as the essence-energy distinction, created Vs uncreated grace, the filioque debate, the hesychast controversy of Barlaam Vs Palamas.

>>11545934
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_of_Seminara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Palamas

>>11546263
Exactly my point- the Orthodox have very little to recommend in their philosophy. And this is a thread asking for philosophy, not dogmatics or mystical theology.

>>11546280
OP here. Actually I would like to read about their mystical theology as well. Maybe saying just philosophy was too specific. I really meant their thoughts and beliefs and in general.

>>11546287
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

>>11546287
Look up Essence-energy distinction (primary writer being Gregory Palamas), created Vs uncreated grace, filioque, theosis.

How come Catholicism and Protestantism don't have the mystical aspect that eastern orthodoxs has

>>11546328

Because catholics are more into Aristotle

Orthodox are more into Neo-Plato

>>11546335
What about Protrstants

>>11545934
Glad i found this thread.

Can anyone help me with some recommendations? i tried yesterday and i got some books, but not so much about christianity, /his/ does nothing so far

>>>/his/5090683

>>11546280
I really don't understand this thinking. If someone is asking for works on philosophy of a particular religion they are clearly asking for works of theology, what else could they be asking for??

>>11546328
But we do. Mystics were always important part of catholicism, we just don't like them, because we are insecure, pretentious faggots with a hard-on for authority and political bling-bling and all that I'm-so-serious-I'm-shitting-dogmas.

I'm told that there are connections between eastern orthodox Christianity and Vedic spirituality like Hinduism. Can anyone expand on this?

>>11546388

>Mystics were always important part of catholicism

*Destroys Cathars*

Yeah ok

>>11546367
Already posted >>11546139

>>11546328
In orthodoxy theology precedes and is way more important than philosophy, whilst in Catholicism theology is married to philosophy, Protestantism is funny because you have some who are overwhelmingly philosophy and some who are overwhelmingly theology (it's just that the theology is wrong)
There is also the fact that Catholicism is legalistic (take for example divorce, Catholicism due to its legalism has annulments rather than divorce)
Finally because of essence energies distinction the Orthodox believe we can have direct experience of God, but in Catholicism it's more of a created effect that God has made,(I may be wrong so don't take this final point 100% to heart at yet).

>>11546405
>eastern orthodox Christianity and Vedic spirituality like Hinduism

Guys. We need to save the Esphigmenou monastery!

>>11545934
Not sure if eastern or not, but relevant

>The first passage, Clement says, was inserted between Mark 10:34 and 35; after the paragraph where Jesus on his journey to Jerusalem with the disciples makes the third prediction of his death, and before Mark 10:35ff where the disciples James and John ask Jesus to grant them honor and glory. According to Clement the passage reads

>And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, “Son of David, have mercy on me.” But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark

IMO Jesus had a particular type of prayer to achieve an Out of Body experience where he managed to interact with God and there he granted him super powers, so upon his return people started to claim that he was in fact god the messiah

>>11546420
>Protestantism is funny because you have some who are overwhelmingly philosophy and some who are overwhelmingly theology (it's just that the theology is wrong)
What are some wrong things about Protestantism?
I was raised in a southern Baptist church and I felt that the teachings were very basic and watered down like it was missing anything truly meaningful. We never went into any depth. But I don't really know what it was missing.
I just felt like it was pretty much just "Yup we believe the Bible is the word of God and nonbelievers are going to hell and we suport Israel as God's chosen people. Now let's eat some bbq and watch the football game." Granted that's also an oversimplification but you get my point. It seemed like it was just to keep the common plebs in line. I do think the social aspect of coming together in church as a community is good but at the same time I would have liked some more depth as well. And I find their support of Israel to be wrong.

Please someone explain the differences between catholism, orthodox and protestanism t. brainlet

>>11545934
>crypto atheist

Even more atheist than Atheism itself. Claiming qualitative Epistomological barriers between you and God might as well be Atheism. Claiming no abomination is too big to be integral to God might as well be Satanism. Endless blasphemy against yourself and your Phenomenal vantage point is, by Catholics' own thinking, blashpemy against God.

>>11546511
I don't understand. This whole post is confusing to me. Can you explain it in brainlet terms?

>>11546405
http://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2017/11/yoga-mudras-in-orthodox-christian-art.html?m=1

>>11546222
Thank god.

>>11546488
Catholics:
>believe church was led by St Peter and the pope is Peter's successor
>worldview is very Aristotelian, rationality-minded
>more likely to explain weird church concepts like the Eucharist in rational terms
>have monasteries but most of their focus is on social services, theology, the mass, etc.
>claim the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Son and the Father

Orthodox:
>believe that church was led by the apostles and that all of their successors have equal authority
>worldview is very neoplatonic, mystical in nature
>less likely to explain weird church concepts in rational terms
>monasteries are core to the faith, the spiritual heart of orthodoxy is an island full of monks and monks are very often also priests
>claims the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father

Protestants:
>reaction against catholic corruption and theology
>believe thousands of different things since its not a single movement
>generally de-emphasises mysticism but this isn't always the case
>generally de-emphasises Church authority
>full of countless minor deviations in theology compared to catholic and orthodox beliefs

>>11546460
Protestantism was partially founded on the abandonment of scholastic philosophy. As a result, they tend to misinterpret faith as an oppositional force to reason. The result is that all of their arguments against atheists are laughable, and it wasn't hard at all to make them subservient to stronger faiths such as progressivism or the boomer neoconservatism that you've described. It's why so many of their churches feel like events put on by a public school. The same problem exists in many Catholic churches, but one of the appeals of Catholicism is that no matter how bad the church gets, they can't corrupt the actual doctrines. Thousands of years of popes and none of these guys got together and made it ok to have harems. Compare that to all of the protestant churches that actively promote every kind of modern transgression imaginable, after less than a millennium from their creation.

>>11546488
Most apparent differences of opinion between western and eastern churches are: the role of the roman bishop, which ecumenical councils are valid (none after the schism as far as the easterners are concerned), and the fundamental mode of philosophical/theological thought (western 'rationalism' vs eastern 'mysticism', or western aristotelianism vs eastern platonism). There are some dogmatic divergences, the filioque controversy being the prime example. For the average lay worshiper tho the main differences between the two are the different forms of liturgy, celibate priests vs married priests, icons vs statues, different prayer forms, and the fact that fasting is still a thing in the eastern church.

Protestantism is a rejection of tradition (except the tradition of the bible which is special and literally true [not all of it tho]) in favor of the interpretations of Pastor Jim from Tempe Arizona who surely knows more about 'real christianity' than all those idiots who lived in the first 1600 years of the faith.

>>11545934
i was raised as an orthochristcuck and it is not what you make it out to be.

>>11546460
>what are the problems of Protestantism.
As an orthodox my feelings towards Protestantism are mixed, on one level they are further from us than catholics yet on the next level they started as a revolt against the wrongs of Rome.
Protestantism is an umbrella term, you got Lutheran’s, episocopalians, calvinsts, Pentecostals, baptists, quakers etc etc.
Generally Protestants have gone wrong in that they further separate from the energies of God, they deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist further distancing themselves from God all because of philosophy. They also eschew tradition, which is why hillsong exists and Christian rock or rap music, instead of having a reverberation of the years of Christianity from the beginning, Christian worship is made into a trend.
They have a legalistic view of salvation, this took the catholic view of satisfaction and went further by saying that Christ died to wipe your slate of sin clean, contrast this with the Orthodox view of Christ dying to defeat death and open the new relationship with God and man, the legalistic view creates a slavtion not based around every aspect of life but a masochistic guilt trip.
There are a lot more things I could think of but these are some of the big ones.

>>11546414
>*Destroys Cathars*
Cathars were heretics and fucking hippies. And probably commies.
We didn't need their pacifist filth. And vegetarianism. And rich-people-shaming.
We are Catholics and we are a bloodthirsty lot. The true faith is not for the faint of heart.

Mystics are tolerated within Our Holy Mother Church, as long as they behave, keep their heads low and don't try to influence the doctrine too much. Like, I don't know, do the monk stuff, became anachorites or ascetics. Catholic mysticism is by definition a private and individual experience, so there's not much organized "mystical movement", it's just a personal and widely accepted within The Church way of expressing faith (through contemplation, ecstasy, and so on).

Of course, Catholicism Is Serious Business, so church authorities think that mystics are embarrassingly bonkers and probably need stronger medication. But hey, they are OUR weirdos and we WILL burn at the stake anyone who makes fun of them.

>>11546720
t. crypto-materialist

>>11546687
Which church?

>>11546618

>>11546372
That's not what he asked (clearly) and it's not the question you'd ask for some other religions if you wanted philosophy.

>>11546773
I worded the question wrong. I actually am mainly interested in the mystical theology, but yeah I'd like to learn about philosophy too.

why are we conflating evangelicals with protestants? its a very wide tradition

>>11546843
Most people here are probably American where evangelical and Protestant are virtually synonymous terms. Unlike in Europe where there is a clear separation between mainstream Protestants and those of the evangelical flavour.

>>11546132
This desu senpai
The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Lossky
Byzantine Theology by Meyendorff
Triads By St. Gregory Palamas

>>115 a46743
greek orthodox. and it is really cringy seeing all the people here trying to larp knowing what it is. all the mystical shit people here talk about and want to larp as is a rarity. the majority of being orthodox is mostly just community bullshit. the community is mostly just a bunch of boring people, lots of old people as well, some weirdos. there isn't really any philosophical thought or tradition, most of the people dont any read, and if they do it will usually be the bible or some saints stories. i actually remember some conversation some priest was having with a convert saying you should never report a rapist or tell your friend his wife is cheating on him because it is in god's hands. stupid shit like that.
anyway stop trying to larp, stop trying to affirm an illusionary individuality and realize there is no being "saved."

>>11546843
Which protestant denomination has any mystical tradition apart from Anglicans, and even then you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

>>11546889
Everyone knows that diaspora Greeks are the least pious Orthodox. Diaspora Serbs are fucking fanatics though. I love the Serbs here

>>11546743
>>11546889

>>11546894
This. Diaspora Greeks are the worst.

>>11546933
>>11546894
I come from a diaspora family and this is incredibly true

>>11546843
Because the evangelical pastor jims of the world are the most obvious demonstration of what is wrong with protestantism

>>11546889
oh and when i say they read the bible it is just the new testament, ive never seen anyone in the church have an interesting conversation about the old testament other then mentioning gays and sodom and gammorah. some jews ive talked to though had some interesting things to say at least know their text, not even trying to meme or bait, although they were in my literature class so it could just be that.

>>11546889
>all the mystical shit people here talk about and want to larp as is a rarity

Nigger, are you for real?

Yeah most orthodox priests are retards, but that's because of how easy it is to become a priest and in general rise up church hierarchy. That doesn't invalidate the tradition or the struggle of what being orthodox represents

>>11546974

What does jewish mythology and folklore have to do with the Christ and christianity?

Stop calling yourself greek pls

>>11546975
what struggle?

>>11546863
But mainstream protestantism is gone friend, it no longer exists.

>>11546999
The struggle to keep a coherent church. It's almost 2000 years old, but you still have the schism, you still have retarded autochephalous churches who would rather use their national church's means to support whatever retarded politician that gives them financial lip service, and of course retarded Russia that uses the church as it's right hand in it's foreign policy.

After a 55 year planning, the meeting in Cyprus failed due to power struggles between the churches. What the fuck is that, and what does it have to do with christian orthodoxy?

It's a struggle for church coherence, a struggle to keep the tradition united and continuous

>>11546975
>>11546999
what struggle? there is no "struggle." i bet it pleases you to say there is, that you have some sacred duty and that you are "carrying the cross." if anything ive struggled more not being religious. stop trying to affirm and illusionary individuality and stand up for your own sake...

>>11546649
Damn Orthodox is based

>>11547112

You are a retard, and probably an atheist as well. I see it as my duty first to be an example for my own nationality and then only second to my religion, because it is the most purest set of ethics and ideas that someone could cherish. What is sacred anymore in this global materialistic world? The christian faith is rotten, and you do it no better when you base your entire opinion of it from your local village priest who gives bad advice to the yokels.

Don't be a christian for fighting for your own egotistic attention seeking, or for the interests of the church hierarchy, fight for the true message of christ and fight for his teachings to live on, in unison and in eternity.

>>11546139
Does anyone have or know where to download Dumitru Stăniloae's Orthodox Dogmatic Theology? Can't find it for the life of me.

>>11546014
fpbp

>>11547517
I can't find it anywhere as well.

quality thread

>>11547102
>in it's foreign policy
i would say internal policy, not only say but heavily imply. telling his people that they have 'god given president' is quite baffling and it's only a tip of iceberg

Did the Orthodox church ever produce 45,000 different sects?

>>11547556
>that pic
kek

>>11547808
Nah, although the russian church did.

>>11546649
Protestants are relativists really

Where does the Eastern Orthodox Church stand on the Jewish question

>>11548209
Depends on the national church

>>11548278
Do they tend to be neocon Zionists like American Protestants are

>>11548291
I don't think so. The national churches are generally neutral when it comes to that part of the world, except for Jerusalem obviously, but at worst jews are being reminded of their role in killing Christ

>>11548209

100% redpilled

>>11548409
>Beilis case all over again
good god

>>11548409
Why does he look almost Asian

>>11546692
But what do you think about Kierkegaard?

>>11548628
He's Russian, he is almost Asian

>>11548653
Kierkegaard is amazing, I have a profound respect for him and his philosophy. His teachings on the knight of faith resonate well with me and with other orthodox as well. He is definitely one of the brightest minds of Protestantism.

>>11546996
>What does jewish mythology and folklore have to do with the Christ and christianity?

Nigger are you serious

>>11546328
Catholicism has mystics. But our tradition pales in comparison of the eastern orthodox.

>>11546361
Protestants don't think that much into it.

>>11547102
That's what you guys get for not just being Catholic.

>>11549387
>actually being catholic
nice pope you have there, faggot

>>11549239

It's called the torah, i.e the jewish bible

Everything that has nothing to do with Jesus is automatically not Christianity

>>11549239
It's called the torah, i.e the jewish bible

Everything that has nothing to do with Jesus is automatically not Christianity

>>11550102
Choosing only one part of your religion and calling it a day makes you a heretic.

Which is by no means bad, but Jesus specifically reacts to Jewish tradition and fulfills the Jewish law.

I'm against the old-testament focus Christianity has in some places (such as Russia) but negating all of Judaism from it is like ripping out it's pulling out the entrails from a person and calling him alive.

>>11550166
Again, the jewish bible has nothing to do with Christianity, and it was only included as Canon only because the apostles quotes passages from psalms and Isaiah into the NT. It's there purely for historical and legalistic reasons.

>Jesus specifically reacts to Jewish tradition and fulfills the Jewish law.

That's a contradiction. Jesus was against the jews, and so he was not the jewish messiah in their eyes. Can't be a jew if you don't fulfill jewish law.

>>11550181
Christ said that Moses wrote about Him.
You have been refuted my friend.

>>11546720
If you ever needed confirmation that Catholics are full of shit, well, here you are.

Also, to anyone who said Orthodoxy doesn't have philosophy/theology/lit, I literally answered the question almost twenty hours ago. >>11546079

>>11550199
>Christ said that Moses wrote about Him

Source? Citation?

>>11550224
John 5:46

>>11550252
>Non-Synoptic Gospel

>>11550265
>doesn't understand the history of the canonization of the nt or even the ot

either you're a a protestant fag who has no conception of tradition or history or you're an ehrmanian retard so there's no use in furthering this discussion anymore, but I'll recommend the book by bf Bruce
https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Documents-They-Reliable/dp/0802822193

This is a fucking great thread lads

>>11550271

>Believing in a documents which was canonized only because people actually thought John the apostle wrote it

>>11549387
Catholics are the ones responsible this shit started in the first place

>>11550202
>Catholics are full of shit
no, we are full of divine grace and righteous rage
and sugar and spice and everything nice

>>11550282
>these implications that the Holy Spirit wasn't with the orthodox bishops who canonized the bible

you might as well just throw the entire bible away

>>11550316
>Implying the Holy Spirit is present in your rationale right now

>>11550321
contradiction

>>11550323

That's not what believing means and not what Christ meant when he repeatedly told his disciples to believe

>>11550282
I bet you post the John quote about the Jews being called the sons of the devil but you don't recognize the same gospel when it says that the Judaic Mosaic Revelation is an integral part of the Gospel of Jesus, the Son of David, the Jewish Messiah. I find strange than a internet pseudo Christian neo-nazi prefers the more jewish synoptic gospels than the gospel of st. john.

HAHAHHA

>>11550334
I only recognize the study of the Gospel of Mark which represented Peter's first hand memories with Jesus.

I look up lots of stuff my orthodox church website it's nice. Maybe check the Greek orthodox church for English stuff.

Anyone want to give me their take on way Dostoyevsky hated the Catholics and Jesuits specificly? Where did he take it from.

>>11550340
>Gospel of Mark
Lol the gospel that literally starts with a quote from the Old Testament. All nazi pseudo christian faggots are this retarded or it is just an American thing?

>>11550378
Dosto was a Czar/Orthodox sect shill who hated the Catholic Church because of general schismatic saltness. He critized the state of the Catholic Church but didn't said a word about the repulsive state of the Orthocuck sect and his meekness and servile attitude with the secular power. I recognize he was a nice novel writer but he was bias a fuck.

>>11547517
bumping this request

>>11550379
>People can't attribute other writings to other people!

I bet you think the gospels were written by jesus himself

>>11550401
Lol stop embarrasing yourself. In one part of the same gospel both the prophet Eliah and Moses appear with Jesus on the Transfiguration. Really, stop. Do yourself a favor and read the NT and stop leaning theology from pol or some retarded WN blog like smoloko.

>Eastern “Orthodox”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d07mgLoOW8g

>>11550409
>He thinks Jesus claimed to be the son of God

>>11550414
issihasts took their prayer form from the jews which tried to copy it from the torah

The rest of the vid is bullshit

>>11550414
>1hr gallop gishing what should have been a 10 minute video
This whole video is hyper autism, when we say a sword is a sharp piece of metal with a hilt we are talking about the essence of the sword. When we say a sword can cut through wood or pierce the skin we are talking about the energies of the sword. We are not talking about two different things, but rather saying that the essence of the sword is different to the energies of the sword, but the sword is still fully in the energies.
The Dimonds believe that essence = energies, but if so how do they differentiate between the begating of the Son from the Father and the Son walking on water.
It doesn’t help that they are sedecabtivits who are just Protestants playing pretend as catholics.

>>11550414
>everyone except Sedevacantists is going to hell!!!!!!!
no thanks

>tfw want to become orthodox but there is no church around. Greeks and serbs pls come the sticks.

>>11550986
Where do you live?

>>11550986

Greeks and serbs don't represent orthodoxy. And there's 14 autocephalous orthodox churches you know...

>>11550986
What's formally left of orthodoxy has become a corruption-ridden cringe. I have yet to be as disappointed by a religious institution as I've been by the mainstream orthodox church. Wouldn't really recommend it. Also
>picking religious doctrine like you're picking fucking bread in the supermarket
Why do westerners do this? Do you realize what a laughingstock you are?

>>11546692
>Christian worship is made into a trend.
Don´t you think it is just a charismatic church and its their way to worship god?
Most people i know, that visit hillsong chruches are not christians, because it is trendy but because they think, that cheering and dancing in church is justified and it helps to feel the holy spirit

>>11551155
Just because there are local churches in shitholes that fall into corruption does not mean that THE CHURCH is corrupt, I don't think you understand what the church is. You are just as pitiful as the modern westerner who flippantly tries on different religions, you clearly treat these things with an equal amount of seriousness seeing as how you "wouldn't recommend it". If it's the truth why would you not recommend it?

>>11551155
>picking religious doctrine like you're picking fucking bread in the supermarket
how did you get this from what >>11550986
posted?

>>11551109
as a greek ortho this is true, the church is broad

>>11551348
>tries on different religions
Religion isn't a pair of jordans, though.
>does not mean that THE CHURCH is corrupt
I'm not referring to the countries, but to the church itself. Priests driving around in six-figures cars and wearing platinum rolexes from selling church properties, priests taking huge sums to do their fucking job, flamboyantly homosexual monks btaking over the biggest national monasteries, priests and monks treating laymen like shit and literally swearing at them if they don't pay up for the simplest of activities or if they follow holy days by the julian calendar etc etc. I've always been appaled by the audacity and disregard for the faith I've seen by the clergy basically everywhere I've been.

>>11551376
>how did you get this from what >>11550986 posted?
It's strongly implied by "become" that he views it like something you casually change.

>>11551691
not the other dudes; you seem to be from the Balkans?

>>11551691
I didn't casually change my views; you don't casually drop things you were raised with.

I see your point however; the shit with pastors abusing their power is on steroids in Protestantism. The one I was raised in practiced "christian hedonism" where the reformed pastors openly justify it.

Desert Father larping aint that bad tho.

I don't understand this contempt for "trying a new religion". What's wrong with searching for the truth? We definitely aren't finding the truth in Protestant or Catholic churches, so that's why we are looking elsewhere.

>>11551691
>Religion isn't a pair of jordans, though.
Yes, that is what I was saying. Christianity is supposed to hold the truth of the world, and if you warn people against it and think those interested in it are a laughing stock you clearly don't believe in what it is. So what difference really is there between you and an American who treats religiosity as a decoration?

>>11551784
I think most of the contempt is directed at those who lack a sense of seriousness, who are really just searching for new layers of ego.

>>11551774
>christian hedonism
What kind of Satanic kikery is this?

>>11546598

no