/lit/ - Literature

No kierkeegard? Or even CS lewis?

>>11505191
>The Old Testament
>Aristotle
>The New Testament

>>11505191
>Judeo-Christian

>>11505195
Slipped my mind. I was drawing a blank for more contemporary authors. They exist and are worth reading, thanks for posting them. I've read Fear & Trembling and Screwtape Letters.

>>11505213
OT is very old, anon. Older than based Greeks.

>>11505216
>The Holy Bible includes the Hebrew Bible

>>11505251
Simone Weil?
Henri de Lubac?
William of Ockham?
Erasmus?

>>11505296
Haven't read them myself, I don't know if they're worthy of listing. Ockham, sure, Erasmus, but Weil? Should I list Meister Eckhart as well, who was prosecuted for heresy?

>>11505191
>Judeo-Christian
>lists not one medieval Jewish philosopher
Sure bub.

>>11505312
Weil influenced a pope that's why I count her.
As for Eckhart, none of his stuff was found to be that heretical.
There is always stuff like the Cloud of Unknowing if we wish to add more "orthodox" Christian Mysticism.

I'm trying to understand the moral background of sacred texts and how they justify them.
I find parts of the Bible to be too fast paced. Genesis in the OT and Jesus' birth in the NT should be explained with more detail in my opinion, it's like the authors just wants to get to the main point but are in a rush to prove that this is sacred from the start. Then the miracles of Jesus are extensely described with more detail.

Little explanations on the how, unless it's about Jesus being amazing all around.

Still, a better read than the Quran, which just repeats over and over that Allah is great and merciful then proceeds to explain he will punish mercilessly those who don't follow the book, and gives even less explanations, usually going like "don't do that, it's disgusting/reprehensible"

>>11505540
>t. Never read the bible

to deal with the rampant atheism on /lit/ we should start posting a bible verse as the first reply to every new thread

>>11505540
Tbphwysenpai they're fast paced because just as we don't know a lot about Jesus' early years, neither did people living 150 years after his birth. I'm pretty certain the story of his birth was popularly embellished -- heralded by an angel, wise men, descent of the Holy Spirit (which make Mary pregnant with the Logos, or Christ) -- and later these terms were dyed with Platonic meaning to lend authority to the new theology of agape.

>>11505191
>Marcion
Good luck with that one.

Try Irenaeus, Clement, Hippolytus, Epiphanius, and Eusebius instead.

>>11505612
I'm aware he was declared a heretic. He was a necessary step in the formation of the early Church, however, and worth reading about.

Add to your list The Capadician Fathers, Maximus the Confessor and John of Damascus.

>>11505590
The Canonical Gospels were definitely written before the year 100 AD, the earliest one is Mark in around 60 AD.

Does converting always feel like LARPing at the start?

>>11505675
No doubt it's going to feel a little silly, especially if you've adopted an ironical or contemptuous attitude in other parts of your life. If you have doubts, it's okay. Converting (I'm assuming to Christianity of some sort) is, truly, adopting a philosophical life in the ancient sense.

>>11505629
>necessary

>>11505692
>implying organizing into a single doctrine was going to happen without an example case to push off of
>what is dialectic

>>11505757
>implying you can say something wouldn't of happened if it weren't for 'X'

I can't take church services seriously at all. It feels like a complete joke. I was raised religious and I believe in God but I can't take modern worship serously.

>>11505772
I'm guessing you're a Protestant?

>>11505777
Raised that way, yeah. But I gave Catholicism a try too and it felt silly with all the rituals. At least the mood was more somber I suppose. By myself I feel extremely connected and spiritual, but the moment I enter a congregation I feel like a fool.

>>11505797
you gotta learn to love people as well as God, and understand the idea of One Kingdom, and communion.

>>11505803
I guess so. I have a hard time with it. I've found most Christians to be frauds who have never read the Bible completely or even investigated their belief in depth. Just spitting up rhetoric I've heard a thousand times from the pulpit.

>>11505849
not that anon but I recommend listening to the Fr. Barron playlist in the OP. it's a nice primer. I understand what you mean about tired rhetoric, it seems to be very common these days. Lazy or uncharismatic or mediocre priests are hardly inspiring. It's like people forgot what a wonderful and mystical institute the Church is. It contains mysteries, and these can only be encountered personally. Hearing sermons about simple shit like moral duty, the commandments etc, can feel simplistic. It's important, especially for keeping brainlets from sin, but not necessarily engaging after hearing it for the twentieth time.

Also, don't let Catholicism make you feel silly. The rituals weren't just made up, they are very ancient. Mass is a performance of the Last Supper, with Christ/the Eucharist as the sacrificial lamb and meal. It's heavy shit bro, antique as the Chaldeans or Mithraism.

>>11505849
>frauds because they never read the Bible completely.

bro you're idea of religion is negative from the get go, it's no wonder you struggle to find peace

>>11505897
>antique as the Chaldeans

No

>>11505905
>implying priests performing the Mass *in persona Christi* is not a re-enactment of ancient rabbis performing the Jewish animal sacrifice in the Temple since time immemorial

>>11505900
Is that an erroneous conclusion? That someone who believes in something as serious and final as Christianity and yet doesn't bother to make the time to read THE holy text is fraudulent? I don't think that's unreasonable. Obviously I'm not including people new to the faith (most aren't, in my experience)

>>11505909
I'm not refuting that. I'm refuting that they're the same age or even close to the same age.
Religions borrow from each other, this is fact

>>11505918
Yes I'm saying that's unreasonable

>>11505629
But there are no writings from him surviving, except a few scraps quoted by others

>>11505960
I recommend you read Marcion: Gospel of the Alien God. Harnack reconstructs Marcion's claims about the non-physical nature of Jesus and the reaction against him.

bump

bump for visibility, too many Jordan Peterson threads

>>11505191
whats the difference between the lutheran and catholic church?

>>11507730
Phoneposting atm. The major difference is Luther's idea of Sola scriptura, or scripture alone. Luther rejected the Catholic Church's doctrine of spiritual authority coming from scripture and church tradition (as established in matthew 16: 13-20, where Jesus passes His ministry to Peter). Luther was rightfully frustrated with the Church and wanted to free the word so anyone could preach it. He would regret his decision later, in his Letter to Antwerp.

>>11505251
>OT is very old, anon. Older than based Greeks.
Only partially, my friend.

>>11507843
Erm, yes. I should say the Hebrew Bible is that old. The books when organized as the OT, specifically as the vehicle for the NT, are not.

>>11505540
>too fast paced
>genesis in the OT
uh... what

5 (vi) Here is the genealogy of Adam. On the day that God created man he made him in the likeness of God; 2 he created them male and female; he blessed them and called them Adam [humankind, man] on the day they were created. 3 After Adam lived 130 years he fathered a son like himself and named him Shet. 4 After Shet was born, Adam lived another 800 years and had both sons and daughters. 5 In all, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.

6 Shet lived 105 years and fathered Enosh. 7 After Enosh was born, Shet lived another 807 years and had sons and ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

>>11507869
And yet the fall of man occupies one chapter.

>>11505191

You know they only call it Judeo-Christian because the OT is included as Canon since it's cited in the NT right?

Christianity has almost nothing to do with second temple israelite monotheism

>>11508685
Yes I am aware.

>>11508689
Pick your words carefully man. It's enough that almost 2000 years has passed his Jesus founded his church and it almost completely went to shit, with people waging stupid wars, consolidating stupid institutions and pointless hierarchies, completely missing the essence of what Christ preached.

>>11508700
You're right, I'm sorry I said this thread was for discussing Judeo-Christian literature. I meant to say it was for discussing the literary, philosophical and theological meanings of the ancient and venerable Hebrew Torah as viewed through the lens of Hellenic Jews, who would later be called Christians, and the philosophical traditions they created or which influenced them from antiquity to the present.

>>11508755

And can you stop perpetuating the stupid myth that Jesus was a jew and that his early followers were Hellenized "Jews" ?

There's quite the difference between calling someone a Judaean and a Jew. The first is a historical region, the second is an ethnicity that appeared in 19th century Europe.

>>11508769
Please don't shit up this thread with /pol/itics. It's been pretty nice so far.

>>11508777

Yeah i think you should delete it and do some more research before wanting to start a bible study group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX-6yCunrCw

this is all you need to know my orthodox brethren

>>11508802
Respectfully, you should lay off the anti-Semitism before offering your mistaken opinions to the public. Judea was a place, yes, and not homogeneous: there were Romans, Persians, Greeks, etc. According to Scripture, however, Jesus was most definitely a Jew of the house of David. Read Matthew 1, or Luke 3.

>>11508769
fuck off already

>Not including Jordan B. Petersons biblical series.

>>11508821
It's not anti-semitism, it's just correcting you in a polite manner since most people just make continuous asspulls that somehow, 19th century concepts of nationality magically apply to ancient times.

>Israelites attribute Jesus being part of the house of David so it could match the israelite prophecies of the messiah

Shocking.

>>11505191

Unironically fucking cringed so hard at this post. It wasn't even the type of cringe that you just slightly wince at. No, this is a whole new level of cringe to the point I needed to take a step back from my fucking keyboard and pace around for a few minutes contemplating on how abhorrent and downright embarrassing something like this is. Do you have any idea the level of retardation and pure contrarianism a person needs just to make such a bold fucking claim like that. Downright embarrassing, cringe, bluepilled, and horrifying at how bad this post is.

Is this thread Christian? I've lead a very bad life full of sin and pain, I'm too scared to go to church and be baptized, I don't feel like I belong, and everyone inside the local church is elderly.
I'm also a Protestant and not a Catholic, so I'm afraid people might look at me badly in our small community considering the small size of our Protestant church.

I pray to God and Jesus Christ whenever the times are bad, not expecting much of anything, but recently God has shown me real mercy by helping me recover from an illness that could have painted my entire life with pain, and He has helped me cure addiction a few years ago.
I feel like I'm not repaying God properly for the love He shows me, but I too scared to surrender to His love entirely.

Any books that can help?

>>11509246

Why bother asking if the thread is christian if you're a protestant?

>>11509266
I'm very sorry Anon, I hope we can reconcile our differences with love and living the faith.

2 Kings 2:23

>>11509295

Just a couple of days ago i was walking through Harlesden and i saw a church. On the left of the facade's entrance there was placed two stones with Moses's 10 commandments. But over the engraved texts, someone carved over the text, in quite a rudimentary manner, the word "LOVE" all over the stones.

In that moment it hit me just how far christ's original message morphed into a type of understanding of some primitive northern brutes.

It's not love or faith that you need to get back in shape, but living in a village, getting a grip of yourself.

Explain what the Holy Spirit is.

>>11509266
Some people equate 'Christian' with the Protestant tradition, as opposed to Catholic or Orthodox. It's fine.

>>11509246
Sorry for your troubles anon. The dried up old fuggers at your church might be helpful to talk to. Don't be scared of them or their fellowship. They may not be your age-peers, but they've seen a lot of life and death. Keep praying my man, and don't worry about what you owe to God.

Book recs:
Matthew 5-7. The Sermon on the Mount. If we owe Him anything, Jesus explicitly says what that is here.

The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis. Especially the latter parts of the book. It's meant for people seeking to build their interior life, but I think you may find its message about Christ and your relation to Him some consolation.

>>11509343
Protestants are just materialistic primitive brutes with no higher abstract thinking for the divine who are currently LARPing as christians.

>>11509334
And Jesus Christ and God are helping me along, guiding me in the right direction.

>>11509343
Thanks a lot, I'll read it friend.

>>11509352
It is very unfortunate you feel this way Anon, nonetheless I hope good things come to you.

>>11509352
So you're suggesting you're capable of divining God's plan, which makes you better able to follow His rather simple instructions? What about your faith makes you, in actual practice, a better Christian?

>>11509342
I am not a priest or a theologian, and I'm sure there have been many different answers, but I'll do my best. I cannot say what the Holy Spirit metaphysically is in relation to the Father or the Son, but I can observe in Scripture the effects of the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:13-26 talks about living by the Spirit:

Galatians 5:16-17
>So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
and

Galatians 5:19-21
>The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
and

>Galatians 5:22-23
>But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

So, taking that Christ is the Word (the Logos), and fully Man and fully God (highest good), we see that living according to the Holy Spirit results in a good life. A philosopher's life. Perhaps not a wealthy one, or a worldly one, but one of contentment and virtue. To answer your question I would say the Holy Spirit is the invisible hand or messenger of God, the vehicle of His goodness.

>>11509374
Again with your simplistic and rudimentary understanding of the divine. You think god gives you good things if you pray for them, or that there's some bearded man in the sky who watches as you jack off every time, thinking how many sins you're committing?

If you wanted the divine to manifest literally in your life then you're better off praying to some rock or tree. Or become a Hindu.

And god didn't leave any set of instructions, certainly not what the israelite religious texts tell them to, aside of the concept which Jesus the Christ left us to study in closer detail, for it was only he among the israelites who truly understood the true nature of God.

Being a christian means following a set of ethics, and knowing god. Faith is either for primitives who put feelings over facts, or for power hungry tyrants who lust for hierarchies under their control.

>inb4 that's just prudery
No. It's actually ethics, and living a disciplined life to deliver a desired outcome. Not for the state, not for others, but as a gift to oneself to magnify the life we have been given.

>>11509414
I'll pray for you Anon.

>>11509311

>>11509246
>but recently God has shown me real mercy by helping me recover from an illness that could have painted my entire life with pain, and He has helped me cure addiction a few years ago.
Do you actually think this? I don't mean to insult you, but do you really think God is up there deciding on an individual basis who will recover from diseases and who won't and that mercy has anything to do with it? Like even if God did help you recover from these things, it would make more sense to view it as part of his mysterious, machiavellian Great Plan than an act of kindness, since clearly the same kindness doesn't extend to everyone who prays and in fact the logic behind who is helped is inscrutable.

>>11509585
>i don't know shit about theology or even have skin in the game but am going to post anyway: the post

>>11505324
R E A D
M A I M O N E D E S

>>11509585
I do, read the book of Job for a better understanding of the actual Biblical explanation.

From what I've read and like to believe, and I can't quite place who said this, it's like a hail with ice the size of your fists endlessly coming your way.
Jesus stands inbetween you and this rain, catching almost everything with his body.
But the hail will still hit you a few times eventually, and that alone is enough to send you into a flying rage and abandon all appreciation for all the things Jesus has done for you, leaving wondering why Christianity has abandoned you when you have abandoned Christianity.

why are Christian larpers the biggest shit-flingers on lit?

>>11509655

Why don't you convert to judaism?

Honest question, since most of what you're looking for seems to come in the focus of hebrew scripture.

>>11509660

>People who actually try an put effort in understanding a set of complex, almost 2000 year old historical and religious documents

>Muh larpers

Go back to your new age "spirituality"

>>11509597
Honestly you don't have to know shit about theology to know that it's presumptuous to attribute recovery from illness to God's mercy and love. You just need to live in the real world. And to be frank, that anon doesn't sound like a theologian either and I don't see you attacking him for it.

>skin in the game
It's a sincere personal reply to a sincere personal post. You could be Thomas Aquinas himself, but if your only reply to my post is condescension then it contributes nothing to the thread.

>>11509655
>I do, read the book of Job for a better understanding of the actual Biblical explanation.
But the point of Job is that you shouldn't presume to know God's motives for helping or hurting people. Saying your recovery from illness and addiction is due to God's mercy is not unlike saying Job's misfortune is due to God's anger with him.

>Jesus stands inbetween you and this rain, catching almost everything with his body.
I mean, in that metaphor it sounds like Jesus physically can't stop all the hail, otherwise why would he only block most of it? It seems far from a perfect analogy.

>>11509660
OP here. I've tried to be courteous to everyone ITT, even the /pol/ baiter. The most obnoxious posters so far have been doubters, skeptics, and atheists who interject with Facts And Logic as if they have something to prove.

I'd like this thread to continue and become a regular thing. I appreciate the art of the bantz, but would prefer it if shitposters took this forum for these philosophical works more seriously. Effort-free shitposting can be had in any of the JBP or jezebel threads elsewhere on /lit/.

>>11509667
Jesus Christ died for our sins and in that way served as a mediator, allowing everyone a change to enjoy God's grace, not just the Jews.

>>11509412
ok

>>11509699
>Make a thread about studying the bible

>Get assmad when people start to actually discuss the bible

If anything that's the only thing keeping the thread alive desu

>>11509696
>>11509696
>Honestly you don't have to know shit about theology to know that it's presumptuous to attribute recovery from illness to God's mercy and love.
Incorrect. The faithful presumes that God is the highest good, and that good comes from Him. One must have faith that such a God exists, and it being so, that He is the source of recovery and return to health. You can say empirically that yes, your cells healed or whatever, or that medicine was helpful in restoring you, but we're talking about metaphysics and not materialism; the divine causes, not the temporal effects. If you can't see that, then my original point about your post stands.

>>11505540
Without getting into the more complex issues of the New Testament, it looks like the Hebrew Bible's ground for morality is derived from what you could call the "cosmological" meanings of good and evil, and the revelation of the law at Sinai.

The former can be understood in the following way, at least in part: Good and "fitting" share an overlap in meaning in Hebrew, and Evil might be derived from a root (resh-ayin-ayin) that means "broken". With this in mind, God's seeing the good in creation in Genesis 1 is related to seeing a kind of well developed whole arise. Related to this is what happens in the garden with the tree. To know in Hebrew (yada`) also has a connotation of being able to judge, especially in the verbs infinitive form, which is the form used in the garden story about the tree. What happens when the couple eats that tree's fruit is that They're now in a position to makes judgements about what's fitting and what's broken. Not being God, however, and not seeing the whole of creation, they can also misjudged, which borne out by what happens next: their nudity isn't evil, but *they* take it to be, and so they try to fix the matter by developing primitive clothes, and God is baffled by their judgement. So part of biblical morality has it's ground in the way creation is good, and in how the disruption of it is evil. The other part, revelation of law, seems more clear, though other perplexities abound, such as Israel's existence as a priestly city on the earth that could act as, but won't necessarily be, an example for other nations, and how some of the laws seem to have no reason for their being besides to make Israel distinct (the kosher laws).

This is all very simplified, but hopefully this gives you some ideas to work out.

how important is getting through the entire OT before I start the NT?
I've finished Genesis - Numbers but I'm itching to get to the gospels.

>>11509700
I don't see how Jesus dying for our sins makes up an explanation for why you should focus finding your answer in judaism.

>oh hey Anon, lie down next to me and help me understand this passage.

what do?

>>11509743
>God exists because i can stretch my imagination that he exists

So basically feels over reals?

Yeah, it's definitely hinduism for you. Not like protestants are anything different than crypto-polytheists.

>>11509755
Jump ahead to the gospels man. Deuteronomy is not going to do it for you. I would recommend you read the Psalms first though. And Isaiah.

>>11509755
Skip the OT entirely since it has no relation to Christianity aside the historical assumptions early israelites had over Jesus's role as their supposed messiah. Which is why it was quoted and included in the NT in the first place.

Even the god of the OT is totally different than that of the NT, again for obvious reasons

>>11509790
>Skip the OT entirely since it has no relation to Christianity
Wrong.

>Even the god of the OT is totally different than that of the NT
Wrong.

Read John 1.
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
>He was with God in the beginning.
>Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
>In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

John is the theological foundation for a lot of Christian belief. Yahweh made the world in Genesis. John 1:2 says Christ was there. If you're going to quote Scripture, quote all of it. The idea of Yahweh being a different god is not original, and if you compare the deeds of Yahweh -- murdering firstborns of Egypt, sending plagues, flooding the world, destroying cities, etc -- compare those to the unseen Father of the New Testament, who is perfect in heaven, whose Word Made Flesh came to save mankind through an ultimate sacrifice. It's easy to see how they are different. But they're not. That was a heresy stamped out with the end of Marcionism.

11505590
>I'm pretty certain the story of his birth was popularly embellished
My thoughts exactly. It's what one would expect from ancient stories like these.

>>11507869
Mostly I mean the creation of the world. It is finished in like one page. For being such an important concept; the Creation of reality itself from nothingness, in the Bible it's barely anything more than saying "yeah God did all of this, now that we are clear on that let's go see why you are a damm sinner cursed for ever and why you should feel bad about your existence".
And regarding those generations of descendants, yeah, I think that's also fast paced. The first generations of humans surely had very interesting stories to count in how they interacted with this crazy new world with God itself still walking around. Instead we just get a list of names. That doesn't give any valuable or interesting information, nor any moral teaching. What are we supposed to do with a bunch of random names and numbers? Cain and Abel was a nice start but then who cares amiright.

>>11509746
Very interesting interpretation. I guess knowing Hebrew helps at identifying some of the intended concepts. At least in my Spanish translation it doesn't give the feeling that Adam or Eve misjudged nakedness as evil, but they correctly identified it as being wrong. Thank you for the thought, anon.

>>11509819
>Wrong.

Nope.

>Read the last gospel that was included in the biblical Canon because early christians thought it was the actual John the evangelist who wrote it.

No thanks, i'd rather study historical relics for what they are, and their insight over the various opinions and conceptions over Jesus.

>It's easy to see how they are different. But they're not.

So are they different or not? Make up your mind.

>That was a heresy stamped out with the end of Marcionism.

It was heresy for all the different reasons that Marcion put forth in his own canon, but never did once someone reject his idea that there are two different ideas of god in the bible. If that weren't the case, you wouldn't have John Chrysostom or other christian scholars who specifically made efforts against judaizing christianity.

>>11509743
>God is the highest good, and that good comes from Him
> it being so, that He is the source of recovery and return to health.
Are you saying he's the source of good but not bad? Putting aside the issue of evil as such and only focusing on "conventionally" bad things, like not recovering from illness? The problem is that sort of limits his godliness. This is the idea expressed in Isaiah 45:5-7; if Yahweh is really the only God, then he must be responsible for all things, good and bad. But if recover and death both equally come from God, then thanking him for a recovery makes no more sense than cursing him for a child's death, or indeed thanking him for a child's death.

>>11509878
Then I suppose we have a difference of opinion. Oh well. I'd like to hear more of your views.

>So are they different or not?
Pretty sure I was clear, buddy. They are not different. They are the same.

>never did once someone reject his idea that there are two different ideas of god in the bible.
What are you talking about? There's been plenty. Monotheism? One God. Three aspects in the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Father as ineffable, beyond description, unknowable. Son as the Logos incarnate, whose sacrifice atones for those faithful who accept Him. Holy Spirit as effect between the previous two. All being of one God, not two. I'm not kidding and not being facetious, I'd like to hear more about your sources and beliefs.

>>11509746
Very interesting. I've also heard that the word "created" in Genesis could better be translated as "prepared." Preparing things that are fitting sounds a lot more purposeful than merely creating things that are good, it seems more to emphasize the idea that the world is created for (presumably) mankind. I kind of want a Bible with notes on every single potentially contentious word, but it would have to be ten volumes long.

>>11509903
This is a great question. After the Fall, man is mortal and susceptible to all vices and injury. God is infinitely good, and infinitely merciful, but he also condemned man to suffering and toil.

Romans 11:32.
>For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Is the story of the Garden of Even literally true? I don't think so. Is it metaphysically and psychologically true? Yes I believe so.

>>11509930
Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, guy. It is worth it. Highly recommended for studying etymology and differences in meaning or usage.

>>11509930
That verb (bara') is tricky to deal with; as a noun the root seems to mean "new thing", but it's hard to say what to make of it. Cognates usually just mean "make", but it is true that God is the only figure that uses the verb. It could be related to a similar root (same letters but only appears in a particular verbal form) that means "to carve", and that might suggest a "shaping" of the cosmos.

Religion shouldn't be taken seriously

>>11509942
Thanks.

>>11509966
based

>>11509246
Go to a local Catholic parish and arrange an appointment with a priest.

God loves you so much. It doesn't matter how much sin you've accumulated, He still loves you. You just have let Him love you and give Him the load off your back. You need to ask for forgiveness, open yourself up to Christ.

>>11505675
I believed in God but was moved to convert after reading Kierkegaard. His works will give you a very different perspective on the faith.
For me, the belief in Christ as God came easily as a result of various strange experiences when just starting The Bible, but what feels a bit “off” is interacting with people at Church who seem either ready to ostracize anyone who questions aspects of their conception of faith and people who seem to not take it seriously as a result of being brought up in the faith. That being said, Church is a wonderful experience and I’ve met many fantastic people there. I’m impressed with the strength in character of a lot of them, especially the ones who also converted of their own will

>>11509246
Kind of an obvious question, but have you read the whole bible yet?

Agnostic here, interested in learning more about Christianity (mostly out of literary interest for now). Should I read the Bible from start to end, or is there a better order for beginners? It seems a bit daunting

>>11510846
The Bible is a collection of books by many authors, and these books for different purposes. Start with the Hebrew creation story, Genesis. Skip the begats if you want. Continue reading through the Pentateuch until you get tired. Knowing the entire history of the Israelites isn't necessary this instant, assuming you know who Moses is and what the commandments are, and the characterization of the Israelites as a sinful people. Move ahead to the synoptic gospels (Matt Mark Luke John) when you are ready, then go back to the OT and read again. Psalms and the prophets especially. Isaiah, Ezekiel. Just dig in.

I took a break from the Old Testament recently to give C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity a read. Maybe I'm ruined by too much academic reading and philosophy but that was one of the best literary breaths of fresh air I've had in a long time. It's so concise and conversational, but without sparing on the denser or more philosophical aspects of Christianity. I was a little disappointed with the first quarter or so where he tries to derive the mental steps one can take from absolutely nothing to a belief in an affective God, as it felt unfinished, but the rest was fantastic and gave me a much greater appreciation of the faith in general. Fantastic pragmatic advice as well.

If anyone is interested in Christianity but doesn't want to commit to reading the Bible or denser philosophy, I highly recommend it. You can read it leisurely in a weekend

>>11509772
He exists where objectivity ends, the subjectivity.
Gravity exists and we know how it works and how to manipulate gravity, but why does gravity endlessly make room, and how does it make this room?
It's not feels over reals, subjectivity and objectivity are two completely different things, yoy're arguing against Christianity from the wrong platform.

>>11505935

>>11509918

Jesus pretty much btfo the god of the OT which the israelites were praying to in favor of an all loving, caring, and knowing universal god

>>11511170

If you think God cannot be measured or quantified using exact messures, and somehow "Subjective", you're simply an obscurantist who would rather trivialize meaning in order for you to twist it however you like. God's nature is measurable and palpable, moreover, it is completely objective.

>>11505251
the term judeo-christian is a total fairytale, please stop using this unironically

>>11505191
Quick question, the Bible ive been reading isnt in the order lve found online. It goes somewhat like this: pentateuch, joshua, samuel 1, 2, judges, kings 1, 2, isaiah, jeremiah, etc leaving ruth, job etc to be read at the end

Am I missing something for reading it like this? I think it's done to read the old testament as chronological and leaving the "side stories" at the end

>>11512208
This, it's actually judaeo-Christian and Greco-Roman.

>>11512242
remove judaeo- and greco-roman

it is 100% christian, modern jews are part of the talmudic synagogue of satan (rev 3:9)

Well, I understand when a person studies The Holy Bible for cultural or historical research and/or for help in building his own moral-ethical coda, but who in the fucking world can take this book literally??? "I've read both Testaments, now I am praying every morning and evening and also go to church every Sunday". Really? Then you've read shit, or didn't read it at all.

Let's be honest, God as it is depicted in any ancient fictional/religious book does not exist. God did not create our ethical system, did not make our planet in 6 days, did not create woman out of a man's rib etc.

Even if our Universe was created by some kind of Supreme Being, i.e. eternal, smart and absolute Thing, it has nothing in common with ours and our ancestors' depiction of it.

>>11512339
Only retarded American cults take the ot literally

>>11512339
What an intelligent post. Really a well considered and informed position. GJ anon. You contributed!

It's not 100% literal you big dummy.

>>11505191
I might be off-topic with this post but I don't know where else to ask this on 4chan and get a good answer. I am a christian but I feel that my faith is weak. Life is filled with so much suffering that it would be better if I never existed. What is the point of praying for God to help me in life when so many people more deserving of help than me have suffered terribly due to evil people or due to disease without God helping them? Why did God create us in the first place? Why did God also create diseases that make us suffer?

>>11512339
>God as it is depicted in any ancient fictional/religious book does not exist.
>God did not create our ethical system, did not make our planet in 6 days, did not create woman out of a man's rib etc.


This is the god of the Israelites as well as the depiction of god in the OT

>Even if our Universe was created by some kind of Supreme Being, i.e. eternal, smart and absolute Thing, it has nothing in common with ours and our ancestors' depiction of it.

And this is exactly what Jesus preached. The god he felt during his spiritual experiences was a universal one, a massive creationist force, it had no relations to the god of the israelites.

>that incel who ODed on 4chan and tranny porn and is now "into" Christianity
why is this such a common phenomenon among white male millenials?

>>11512379
Speaking as a purebred brainlet, I can offer a couple of answers.

>What is the point of praying for God to help me in life when so many people more deserving of help than me have suffered terribly
Variation on the problem of evil. Theologists have reasoned that God's love is infinite.

>Life is filled with so much suffering that it would be better if I never existed.
This, I feel, is a common misconception. Life, wakefulness, and sensory experience are suffering -- and they are God's gift. We were created by the Father, then punished for disobedience, then forgiven through Christ. Christ may be the way to reconciliation with God, but we are still tainted by original sin. Every mortal moment is an opportunity to live as Christ did, to make the picture of our life closer to His image. The alternative is succumbing to all the sins in the world, which come so naturally to man. 99.999% of the time, we are the cause of our own and each other's pain.

>Why did God create us in the first place?
Because if you were a nothingness you wouldn't be asking this.

>Why did God also create diseases that make us suffer?
Read Job.

>Friends with liberal atheists
>They shit on religion all the time
>damn near get an aneurysm every time they do
>want to talk about how the decline in religion is responsible for the decline in society but don't really have any proof other than traditionalist authors they wouldn't believe anyway

Any books on why religion is important for the fabric of society?

Does anyone else also think that growing up non-religious is, in the long run, a good thing because you don't take religion for granted?

>>11512562
>Any books on why religion is important for the fabric of society?
Yeah, lots. Aside from obviously the Bible and how it has informed the philosophies and legal systems of the west, more contemporary sources for the importance of religion (that is, organized mystical experience) are going to be anthropologists and mythologists. I liked:

>Eliade's Rites and Symbols of Initiation
Mostly about primitive rituals and male coming-of-age. Identifies earliest ideas of man and his place in the cosmos.

>Campbell's Masks of God
A very excellent four volume set about the evolution of belief and how myth has enforced social norms. Documents from earliest cave paintings to Mesopotamian beginnings to Greeks and Romans and Christianity and the myths of Asia and Oceania and North America. This is probably what you're looking for. Check out Occidential Mythology if you're only interested in western myth.

>Girard's The Scapegoat
Specifically about mimetic desire or the cause for sin. Examines Christ as a brilliant antidote to mimetic or selfish desire. Something a Buddhist might appreciate.

>>11512461
>Life, wakefulness, and sensory experience are suffering
>they are God's gift
I don't understand what you mean. I do not suffer all of the time, and how could suffering be a gift from God?
>Christ may be the way to reconciliation with God, but we are still tainted by original sin.
Being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve only make it more difficult to be reconciled with God. And not everyone is affected by concupiscence in the exact same way, for example heterosexual people have a theoretical way of satisfying their lust without committing sin through the form of marriage, but homosexual people do not.
>Because if you were a nothingness you wouldn't be asking this.
Do mean that God created me only for me to ask why God created me?

>>11512461
> and they are God's gift. We were created by the Father, then punished for disobedience, then forgiven through Christ.
Vicarious redemption of the individual through the collective shirking of responsibility of the sins of a group for which you have been forced to subsume your identity, lest you suffer eternally for a finite crime which you didn't commit, which is in itself repented for regardless, is a patently absurd moral presupposition, friend.

Extract moral lessons from whichever ecclesiastically related texts you'd like, but pretending that you comprehend the true nature of consciousness and of morality itself, is foolish.

>>11512746
I want to add that satisfying lust is not the only or the most important purpose for marriage.

>>11505332
Waiting For God was terrible anon. Fevered rambling.

>>11512746
>I do not suffer all of the time, and how could suffering be a gift from God?
I meant to express that suffering and experience are related. One makes the other. We feel hunger, exhaustion, strain, sensory input on our skin, anxiety or worry, aches and aging - incessantly, every day. I don't claim to know why, just offering the view that this is an opportunity that God has given the soul of man to know Him, the highest good, the only thing we can want for itself: love.

>only make it more difficult to be reconciled with God
Some people definitely have it harder than others. The narrow road and small gate offered by the Church's dogma and the strictures of other systems of moral values are the surest ways. But just as not all good men carry faith in them, I believe all roads lead back to God.

>Do mean that God created me only for me to ask why God created me?
Rather the other way around. We ask because we are. I don't know why God made creation, and I don't think it's possible to know. Who can say what caused the first cause?

>I want to add that satisfying lust is not the only or the most important purpose for marriage.
Agreed. The rules on

>>11512766
Purposely making uninformed claims against a theology you do not prefer is a patently absurd pastime my guy.

Read Genesis 3, where God curses mankind to mortality and suffering. This is what the Israelites believed. Then read 1 Corinthians 15, what Paul had to say about inherited sin, and how it can be wiped clean. If you want a Jordan Peterson-tier explanation, consider original sin to be equivalent to man's natural and inherited (and not always ethical) proclivity to gain advantage and success in nature. Then consider Christ and his teachings to be the antidote to those ethical dilemmas.

>>11512918
So, Jesus did not take unto himself the sins of men and in that sacrifice transcended the pain of being, creating nobility and meaning from the exercise? My mistake.

>>11512918
woops forgot to finish the post. The rules against sex before marriage and monogamy and what-not are formalizations, a code, given answers to social questions. It is pretty utilitarian, designed to keep young people free from trouble and despair and to help make a stable community. The larger purpose is of course to know God and be reconciled to Him by living according to the teaching. It's not praxis to no effect, it is the job of us manifesting grace in the world from Him.

Matthew 22:35-40
>One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
>Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I remember when christcucks would get laughed out of every thread on 4chan. Then the fedora meme took off and it's been downhill ever since.

Christianity is a jewish superstition. None of you are Christians.

>>11512933
Well, and I don't mean to be flippant, but I can feel pain right now. I'm sore af and my knees are shit. Christ took the sin of those who are in His image, who partake of His offering by living according to His ways. And I don't even mean strictly in the Church. The catechism allows for morally upright non-Catholics to receive salvation. It's kind of like those cases were living in His way without knowing it.

>>11512960
Joke's on you, you don't even posses the holy spirit, thus are not human

>>11512966
Or, it could be that existence is by its very nature painful in contrast to unconsciousness. And you're looking to rationalize away the inherent injustice of conscious suffering through a childish narrative constructed by the collective sub-conscious of an entire species across spans of time inconceivable to anything but the symbolic and subconscious mind.

>>11513055
>ad hominem
Dropped. Would've liked to continue to take you seriously as you're pretty good at stringing words together, but it's clear you're not interested in discussing Christian philosophy in good faith. Have a nice eternity.

>>11512766
>crime which you didn't commit
you did

>>11513103
Elaborate?

>>11512918
How is chronic pain, for example, associated with getting to know God?

>>11514408
Is it?

Unless you mean with intent, as mortification of the flesh. Self denial. But real flagellation's been out of use.

>>11514408
Chronic pain, for example, is a potential stumbling block. Read Job, or take examples from your own life. Pain can make a man curse God, magnify his bad habits to cope, blame others*, and make him angry and ungrateful to his friends. It can make one into a misanthrope who takes other blessings for granted, and furthermore stunts his ability to live according to the commandments. But it's also an opportunity to overcome those temptations.

*look up the Hebrew word for accuser: satanas, or satan

will God save me from 4chan

>>11514580
Do you need to be saved from 4chan? Is it a burden on you? If so, then yes, God can help. If not, then no. You're here forever.

>>11514825
I get good book recommendations sometimes and I don't have anyone irl to talk to about literature, so I suppose it's alright.

bebop-a-loola-she's-my-buuump

good morning bump