/lit/ - Literature

>>11474783
bump

You're better off picking a region/subject to study; African history isn't as cohesive as that of Europe.
I don't know about general histories, but some classic books I've read:
The Scramble for Africa by Thomas Pakenham (it's essential to cover this topic)
King Leopold's Ghost (Congo under the Belgians)
Lords of the Atlas (Morocco under the French)
A Labyrinth of Kingdoms (Barth's explorations of the Sahel)
The Great Sahara (European shenanigans in north Africa)
The Zanzibar Chest (not really history but interesting insight into post-war Africa)
Those are just ones I've read; there's probably better shit out there.

>>11474783
difficult task means few books, but bump

bumperino

>>11474783
>African History

le bump thread

/Lit/ is full of racists; they are far too entrenched in their own ideologies to have read anything scholastic on Africa, and I am but a humble STEMfag who hasn't read scholarly histories of any kind (save those required in my college courses).

>>11474783
they made lots of statues of boobs and peepees

All I've read is the Ségou series by Marise Condé. It's about a kingdom in west-Africa (roughly where Mali currently is), around the time when the first Europeans showed up. Not a bad read.

>african history

primatology

>>11477049
Everyone did that, dumbass. People STILL do that, AND it's all they talk about in literature and film.

I wish Africa had a history, so I wouldn't have to be "racist", I mean this :-(

Africa apparently isn't too conducive to human civilization

What can one do

>>11478187

What are you talking about? The second reply of the thread lists histories of several countries and surely, if you did some digging you could find your own. Stop trying to turn your racism into some scholarly dignity and just break it in half. Break it in half, read some history books, and love people. Get your head out your ass.

>>11478212
You know what I mean, Africa has not really produced a great civilization, great art, I know it's unhappy to acknowledge but it seems to be true :-( Relatively speaking, Africa's basically never emerged from the state of nature

>>11474783
BLACK ATHENA

>>11478212
And look, I hope you're right, that it's all due to Contingency, and that modern day Africa can be saved, it's a fucking absurd tragedy

>>11478286

No, I don't know what you mean. The Ghana, Kush, Mali, and Nubian empires are a few African civilizations that come to mind. Of course I'm aware that large amounts of the continent was inhabited by regions of village people but so what? It's their mode of living, other continents have theirs, it's hardly a competition. Great art? by whose standards? European? Of course they had art, much of it was destroyed due to colonialism but it was certainly there. Were they painting the Sistene Chapel? No, they were doing their own shit, it's that simple. People on this site have this weird notion that civilizations can only be evaluated in the context of contrast from Europe and it's absurd. Sure, we can compare and contrast civilizations on one note in order to examine differences, but to debase one or another because of how one deems their most appropriate mode of living, and speaking of this as if it's some erudite means of analysis is ridiculous. You say "African has never produced a great civilization" I say, Europe hasn't produced a great civilization that didn't result in a great detriment to several other civilizations that came in contact with them. What exactly are you evaluating here? Understand that different cultures contribute different works to society and that their values to society are subjective.

>>11478327

I'll try to make this shorter actually:

tl;dr

Africans are valid to live within the means they see fit and so are Europeans. It doesn't make any sense to debase a civilization because they contrast from the modes of another, especially if the former is soundly functioning without the latter's systems.

>>11478341
tl:dr even shorter edition

Africas history is boring until whitey showed up

>>11478327
the reason there is little african art is not because it was destroyed by colonists considering colonists plunder ancient art not destroy it like muslims would, the real reason there is no ancient african art is because most of it was wood carvings, there isn't huge amounts of marble in africa like there is in southern europe, if greece had nothing but diorite available there art would have looked much different

>>11478360

Ignorant, man. And there's no need for it.

>>11478320
that looks dank af link us up a pdf holmes

>>11478327
The great mosque of Mali

Look, this stuff is unpleasant. I hate racism as cruelty, inflicted on other people, just like you. But there's a reason Africa never really got out of the dark ages, and there's a reason modern civilization doesn't really take in modern Africa, why it keeps collapsing into hell on Earth.

I think this is the unfortunate truth, I wish it were otherwise. You're welcome to try to maintain your perspective, it might be better for humanity as a whole to do so, but I don't think it really accords with reality.

>>11478370

I didn't say it was because it was destroyed by colonists I said much of it was, undoubtedly. Anyway, that's beside my main point: Cultures are different, simply put, and that's fine. But people are obsessed with making a hierarchy of them and I get it, I really do, but it does bother me. This site is fun and all but I've never seen a crazier case of people basing their own self-love (or in this case love for their race) purely off of capitalistic competition and assertions of supremacy. I don't understand why Europeans can't just enjoy their culture, admit their faults, and move on. Rather than turning the entirety of human creation into a great vicious competition. Competition is fun, but this sort of obsession comes off to me as a psychological ailment. What do you make of it?

And there's nothing inherently wrong living in the state of nature, aside from the human suffering that results -- It's just that "history" is what happens beyond that state of nature -- History is largely "culture"

>>11476284
>>11477362
>>11478187
>t. Thinks history is just a technological arms race like a game of Civilization

>>11478286
>unhappy to acknowledge
Bullshit. You fucking love the fact that you get to call yourself superior to others. Don't pretend to be regretful and then shroud your ignorance in pseudo-science.

>>11478386

You're missing my point man. Just listen, seriously listen. I'm no fool, I see the snarky sarcastic patronizing tone "you can keep thinking things are ok and that's sweet but you dont understand the truth" bs and I'm over it. Just cut the shit and lets talk like men. Here are the facts: Africa has its own cultures. The people of these cultures are free to establish society as they see fit, this is fine. Humans, in all of their beautiful differences, will naturally have different skills and drawbacks within their respective cultures. Europeans are great at logic, aesthetics, and all sorts of inventive shit. It's wonderful sure, they're also great at creating some of the greatest harms to humanity history has seen. And of course other civilizations have done horrible shit to others, but lets not ignore Europe's track record here. The European has reached incredible highs and sunken the world to incredible lows, is this not fact? The African reaches his highs and lows as well, naturally. Now, are the African highs of the same standard as European? Well, there is no literal objective answer but seeing as we're working within the Western perspective I'll give you this "no". But I mean that only as far as Western civilization goes. Do you see where I'm going here? We cannot talk about Europeans greatness without talking about their awfulness. We must evaluate civilizations holistically and justly. I think it's fair to conclude that while Africans haven't achieved the heights Western civ deems as great, they haven't achieved the awful lows that the European has during his imperialist days. And it's all fine, honestly. But you don't want to understand that, why?

>>11478441
Not him but I will tell you why. It would be punching down. Very impolite. Even the "enlightened" everyone-is-equally-great crowd look down on Africans, even as they pretend to appreciate their humble contributions to world art and history.

fwiw this is a comfier thread than /his/ would have given us.

>>11478406

This guy gets it.

There ought to be a case study of the white man's mentality on this site. The inability to understand self-love outside of a context that involves vicious competition and assertion of superiority over another man. This is a psychological illness and it must be cured. You are free to love yourself, your culture, your people, without creating a system that declares another man less than you. Because at the end of the day these are systems of evaluation created with the intention of favoring one side over another. If we measure things in terms of "who has the higher IQ and who made the prettiest paintings" of course the European wins. Now, we measure things in terms of "who has the more sincere spiritual traditions, which people live more harmonious with nature" and there are new winners, are there not? You people refuse to acknowledge that your systems of evaluation are not holistic but set in favor of specific qualities. They are not as objective as you claim them to be. It's only that this site is obsessed with logic and naturally favors the ability to make feats out of logic over anything else. And sure, logic is great, it's the brilliance of man. But if you understood, if you understood any of God's signs, any signs of nature, the universe, you would see that mans differences are not to be set into hierarchy, but to harmony, and should be celebrated as beauty, not set to battle so one can decide he is greater than another.

>>11478396
the only reason egyptology even exists as an academic discipline because of napoleon "colonizing" egypt and bringing a bunch of academic dickheads to catalog and collect everything, the muslims (who were "colonizing" africa long before europeans got there) either destroyed it, melted it down, or just ignored it

>>11474783
>negro history

>>11478406
I wish it were otherwise because of the human cost. Modern Africa is a gigantic human tragedy, which we're all witness to.

But yes, you're right, I think people are racist basically because there's a tribal instinct in human beings to say Us and Them, etc, sure. And I agree, cruelty towards other people is vile.

What I'm really trying to say is: Beyond what we feel, there's probably a Reason why Africa isn't really conducive to higher civilization. That we absolutely refuse to acknowledge that possibility is what's slightly maddening, that's what prompts me to say this shit.

And sure, Beethoven, Milton, Michelangelo, whatever, they're great. Mali carvings, they're great. You can say So what, and that's fine.

>>11478450

Who are you referring to when you say "the enlightened crowd"? Show me the quote of an enlightened person that demonizes the African. Don't be ridiculous, and admit the truth: you understand life to exist within a capitalistic framework, that man is only to be set to hierarchy based on his material possessions and contributions. What sort of perspective is this? You don't have to believe everything is equally great, it's fine to have your preferences, of course. It's the attitude that disgusts me, the superciliousness that is so absurd. How can the European be superior with so much blood on his hands? How the African inferior with so much devotion to nature and spirituality? You're viewing life as statistics and economics and politics yet it's much more. And I get it, my perspective is the feminine, spiritual, compassionate. You the logical, masculine, naturally will assert that I'm stuck in a juvenile ideology and you are not. But I do believe it to be the opposite.

>>11478467

There's certainly a Reason for all of man's differences. Racial, ethnic, etc. I don't understand it myself but I know there is a spiritual symbolism but I can assure you it is not because there is a necessary hierarchy in place. I agree that the diversity is symbolic but I believe it is more likely symbolic of the immense intricacy of God and the beauty of His art than what you seem to be implying. But I really don't know. I consider myself a man of God, so I take things from that angle. What about you?

>>11478441
Look, I agree with you -- Different "peoples" tend to have different temperaments. And yes, no point in "ranking" them by their accomplishments, unless you're making some kinda idiot sport of it. But different temperaments make different histories.

For what it's worth, I think white people can be pretty sickly, neurotic, absurd, etc. Mental obsessiveness occasionally leads to great art, and far more often leads to neurotic unhappiness. I think black culture probably saved the modern world from white sickliness, second nature, etc.

>>11478467
the problem for me is that any place with africa diaspora is always high murder rate, high hiv rate, and corrupt, every single place, you can blame racism but you think there isnt racism against the chinese? hindus? vietnamese? africa isnt the only place to get colonized, yet they're the only place that just cant seem to recover, or look at hong kong, it gets returned from the colonists to the locals and it prospers even more, zimbabwe or south africa returned to the locals from the colonists and it turns to shit, sorry, its really getting to be too much of a pattern to ignore

Anyway, good job to you all for not throwing your shit around and screeching autistically at the site of a discussion of what to make of Africa in relation to the rest of the world. Civil enough I'll say haha.

>>11478498

Alrighty then!

>>11478475
I was referring to people who hold the views you are espousing. The pale and guilty bleeding hearts who are first to give to a people who have made their own wars, invented their own poverty, engineered their own destruction. These guilty Europeans and Americans who stifle their own freedoms and sacrifice their daughters so the lowly African does not take offense (and more importantly, so the white men do not cast blame on each other).

Proverbs 6:9-15
>How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep?
>A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest--
>and poverty will come on you like a thief and scarcity like an armed man.
>A troublemaker and a villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
>who winks maliciously with his eye, signals with his feet and motions with his fingers,
>who plots evil with deceit in his heart-- he always stirs up conflict.
>Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant; he will suddenly be destroyed--without remedy.
Africa has earned its share of hardship.

Honestly, it be great if religion were true, that we all had eternal souls, and that love could save us

Nature is heartbreaking

>>11478503

Oh I love this argument it's really fun to pick apart. The old "well it happened to other people, why didn't blacks bounce back"

Well lets look at the different histories of these people shall we? The Chinese, for example, long before any harmful contact with the European already had a culture established that was conducive to diligence and entrepreneurial skills. Certainly, they faced discrimination and prejudice like a Jew across Asia but they had already established cultural patterns that could last long enough to overcome any political obstacles set in front of them. They had a strong work ethic, they kept it. Meanwhile, for the 300+ years of the Africans' slavery across continents, in many countries he was not allowed to develop the skills necessary for economic process, any cultural patterns he might have carried from his homeland was dissolved in bondage, he was robbed of his history, made to work like a dog, doing the work of dogs. The Chinese already valued hard work and knew how to sell their shit so of course they figured out how to navigate around oppression. Those of the black diaspora were conditioned to recognize that their work was that of dogs and they were allowed to learn no economically prosperous skills during this work. If we can acknowledge that cultural patterns are a great indicator of a people's tendencies in the present day, we can see clearly what may account for one of many factors in the issue of blacks. But of course it's not so simple, there accountability to be held by the black man, and there's accountability to be held by his external antagonists. The hindus? Recover? What are you talking about? India is a 2 class society. From what I've heard their poverty boils like a stew. I've no idea about the state of Vietnam but I'm sure it's not pretty either. The reality is, that while we may surely hold blacks accountable for a handful of their mishaps, we must also recognize that the great difference of circumstances between them and other cultures history with oppression (such as the Chinese or the Jew), has made for a much different result. And again, I am not attributing all of the black shortcomings to the white man's influence, but some of them, yes. Let's look at the situation fairly and with nuance. Slavery is a psychological tumor on the black man that still pulses, black people can also be held accountable for their fuck ups as well, and everyone who experienced oppression at the hands of the European was in different situations that made for different outcomes.

And again, I think African people are better at being alive than white people

But that neuroticism, anxiety, greed, un-ease makes civilization, for better and for worse

>>11478522
>and poverty will come on you like a thief and scarcity like an armed man.
> So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

wtf were these king james dudes talking about holy shit

>>11475052
So apparently they didn't have a history before colonialism.

>>11478522

What does that quote have to do with Africa? Do you really think that the teachings of any Abrahamic religion would agree with an implication that Africa deserves its place? Wouldn't it make more sense that the ones who erected idols in their place of worship, used their religion to oppress millions, and to this day pervert the text for corrupt means be the ones out of God's favor? I'm talking about the European of course. But I don't even believe that. I'm just a man and am in no place to say such things. But your argument is extremely poor if we are going to bring Him into it. Stick to what you know. The Bible was a mercy God granted us for guidance in order to live more harmoniously and graciously in this world. Do not pervert it to validate your prejudice.

>>11478544

That's a fair assessment.

>>11478550
well there is history from islamic colonization, the muslims colonized africa long before europeans, remember north africa was colonized by arab, they are NOT the indigenous people, and arabic and islam are not indigenous african culture

>>11478551
>What does that quote have to do with Africa?
I'm saying it is wrong-headed and racist to blame anyone or anything *but* Africans for the desperate state of Africa.

I have no opinions on racial superiority or nonsense like that. I'm simply pointing out cause and effect without any of your western bias which tends to "soften the blow" when placing blame on darker skinned people. It's a collective guilt and a neuroticism that, you are correct, white people are very good at. Witness the blame-shifting in your post. Again:

>Africa
>full of people from Africa
>called Africans
>the continent is largely poor, wartorn, and AIDS ridden
>but it is not the African's fault
>(plot twist: it is yours!!!)
Yours is a position that does not accept reality.

and for what its worth I do agree with you on the diaspora (slaves) and the effects of colonialism.

>>11478327
>>11478441
>DUDE IT'S ALL RELATIVE, A MUD HUT IS NO WORSE THAN A CATHEDRAL, IT'S JUST DIFFERENT LMAO
You have much less to say than you think you do, and I wish that were reflected in your post length.

>>11478327
>>11478212
>>11478406
>>11478441

Feeding trolls makes you worse than the trolls. Fuck all of you.

>>11478994
Somewhere along the dark ages, before the enlightenment- if you could switch Africans and Europeans so that Africans would be in Europe and inherit all the advantages that Europeans had - would history be much different?

Success in any endeavour is never as simple as some people just being better genetically.

>>11479016
Oh shut up, this was an interesting thread.

>>11479016
No, fuck you.
Why don't you just crawl into a closet so you have your own safe space where you can ceaselessly mutter your own ignorant opinions to yourself, where no "trolls" will bother you with dissent?

>Be French
>Moved blacks to their own area in Paris
>It turns to shit

>Move to the Netherlands
>Blacks have their own area in the capital
>It's the most criminal neighborhood in the entire country

>Girlfriend is from Germany
>Visit her country
>Learn about blacks near Berlin
>Crime rates are through the roof

Not saying blacks are inherently violent, but they come from troubled countries, families, and a terrible culture to say the least that puts them in a position of immense problems.
We can't blame others for their problems if it happens in every single country, even those who have no history of slavery and racism, and have done all they could to make their pives better with numerous projects.

>>11478539
Well said, I completely agree

>>11474783
http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/general-history-of-africa/volumes/
Have fun

>>11479060
How is this related to African history?

>>11478539
Really makes you think how African slavery a billion years ago is the problem for Africans not integrating, not working, not having functional families, committing murders at the highest rate compared to any other group, even coming from colonies that haven't faced slavery like the Antillians.

>>11479081
Thanks for further derailing the thread, faggot

>>11479081
>a billion years ago
The grandparents of living people were slaves. It's been the blink of an eye. Don't delude yourself. The impact of such things as slavery don't simply disappear overnight.
Think a moment on bullying. Have you ever been bullied, harassed, or something like that? If you've never experienced anything of the sort, this might be difficult for you to comprehend, but think just for a moment about the tremendous psychological damage it can inflict on a person, and compare this to slavery, where a person is literally considered an object, to be treated as something with no worth at all, essentially making them subject to vicious bullying and oppression every waking moment of their life, and if you have a functioning mind at all, you should soon begin to see the connections and the impact this has had and continues to have on African American culture. Slavery was yesterday as far as our civilization is concerned.

>>11479093
I had to give him a (You), confidently displayed and genuine ignorance sometimes gets to me

mid-class white South African here who doesn't live in a gated community, why do you people keep saying Africa is a shithole? traveled to different places in Africa and it's pretty good, even the poorest areas are getting better now that there is more food.

>>11478558
So what would be the point of studying something that was always influenced by a different thing, might as well study that other thing and be done with it.

>>11478327
Small trading villages hardly constitute as civilization.

>>11479030
Why exactly did such advance cultures rise for certain races?

>>11478460
>who has the more sincere spiritual traditions, which people live more harmonious with nature" and there are new winners, are there not?
Bugs live "in nature" too yet I wouldn't say they are more spiritual. Lemme guess, you've see a documentary with a tribe and its shaman and you think that makes those people super duper spiritual not scared puppies avoiding the Wabalulu's wrath.
The truth is Europeans have surpassed that level for a reason and that is an evolved consciousness that required uniting with their kind to be more, while africans are stuck at an instinctual level comparable only to animals which you can deem to have merit but don't pretend it's not because that's the sum of what they're currently capable of.

>>11478498
>I think black culture probably saved the modern world from white sickliness, second nature, etc.
Reggae is good but not that good. Also, you are forgetting Orientals and Asians as relevant cultural influences to the West.
Also, you ignore religion as an actor and the phases of civilization. These things are universally relevant in every culture. You can find ruins of civilizations no longer with us, wherever humans were.

>>11479149
Trade and war move languages, inventions, concepts and heritage around. When humans were free pack animals and fought fiercely over land and power positions, they cultivated art and religions and a plurality of contemplative heritages - now that humans are farm animals only blood, productivity and womb remain important.
Can't wait for the Jewish myth to crumble - their mythology of the goyim is inherently harmful.

>>11478498
>White people
>A coherent racial entity

This is about the most retarded shit I've read all week, and I spend all my time here.

>>11479160
>Europeans
>Evolved consciousness
This is modern fetishism at its finest. Technology, "enlightenment", and scientism have all reduced the contemporary westerner to a slave-souled cog that forms a basis for a machine so complex that neither he or any of his kin can understand it. He is utterly divorced from his own humanity and deludes himself that this is the ordained way of things (ordained not by any deity but by his own ego swollen to bursting point). His spirit shrinks as the concrete towers around him rise to obscure the sun from his vision.
Is this the European world? I want no part of it.

One post recommending books out of 70, nice job /lit/

>>11477049
maybe they actually looked like that back when the statue was made.

>>11478322
>and that modern day Africa can be turned into a cheap copy of the west's success

*rolls eyes* primates. what can you do? monkeys gonna monk, and i'm referring to the west, here.

>>11479066
I've been looking for this for a while, thanks

>>11478460
Hello I am no one
Of what descent are you?

>>11479141

You've missed my point entirely if you think I was suggesting villages are to be considered equivalent to an empire. My point is that their modes of living were sufficient for them and that is fine. Creating vitriolic ranking systems is silly and whenever I call people out on it they just get in their feelings and scramble to find some means to justify the fact that they are spiritually bankrupt and value capitalism over harmony with nature.

>>11479081

It was literally 200 years ago and lasted for 300+ years. Not to mention it was followed by legitimate terrorism from white people for some decades after. Don't be ridiculous anon, read a history book. And before someone replies to me getting all mad thinking I'm blaming whitey for everything, just don't. But we must acknowledge the entirety of the issue, that is all I'm saying.

>>11479016

It's genuinely fun to have this discussion with people because I'm one of the few people on this site that will actually engage this foolishness civilly. You should be glad we can have the discourse, don't be a baby about it.

>>11478994

Trust me, you're not as smart as you think you are either if you're trying to "muh __" my argument as if a capitalistic perspective is somehow more correct. I take the perspective of a spiritual man, a man who tries to follow the will of God and understand the necessity of harmony in life rather than bitterness and senseless competition. I articulated before that because my argument is feminine, it will naturally be stepped on by your masculine assertions, but that's only a result of your willful ignorance, unnecessary resistance towards compassion, and what does it benefit you?

>>11478566

Give it up man, you've ignored the focal point of my argument several times. It's not as if Africa was an insular continent un-meddled by external forces. Several countries have their hand in stomping Africa to shit. Of course Africans can be held accountable to a certain degree but to put the entirety of the blame on them is pure delusion. Have some empathy, read a history book.

>>11479060

I'm not going to pretend to know the individual histories and cultural patterns of each of those immigrants but neither should you. You're painting what is an obviously nuanced situation as black and white for the sake of confirming your bias and that's a sure tell of inconsideration for history and logic. I can't take you seriously if you can't acknowledge that the hands of antagonistic foreign powers, accompanied by whatever self-destructive stupor Africa ended up in, is what lead to their some of the poorer cultural patterns of today. Look at the whole of the picture, not just what makes you feel superior.

>>11479160

Western Civilization has been considered spiritually bankrupt for several decades now. The European traded his intuition and spirituality for logic and capitalism. Even Westerners are aware of this, stop deluding yourself and accept the truth.

>>11479432

Just a black man out here having fun arguing with y'all lmao

>>11479438

Sorry, slavery was actually closer to 150 years ago, if that means anything to ya.

>>11479438
>Trust me, you're not as smart as you think you are either if you're trying to "muh __" my argument as if a capitalistic perspective is somehow more correct. I take the perspective of a spiritual man, a man who tries to follow the will of God and understand the necessity of harmony in life rather than bitterness and senseless competition. I articulated before that because my argument is feminine, it will naturally be stepped on by your masculine assertions, but that's only a result of your willful ignorance, unnecessary resistance towards compassion, and what does it benefit you?
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You could've saved all the babble. This post is surreal. Every single assumption you make is wrong to the point of absurdity. I'll just say it would probably benefit you not to take lack of response as reinforcement of your self-perceived wisdom.

>>11479489

Lol dude it'd benefit you to not just block out every opinion that you don't immediately understand or agree with. Especially if that person is asking you how your stance is a benefit. I'm not out here trying to attack you my guy, I'm genuinely asking you why you take your stance rather than an empathetic one. Look at my tone, do you really think I'm here just so I can "reinforce self-perceived wisdom", what do I get out of that? I'm just asking you to consider if the capitalistic perspective has been good to your soul, and if not, why maintain it?

>Group of people with vastly superior technology decide to conquer lands by people who have little to no technological advances
>Use their military advancements to constantly outmaneuver their enemy
>Murder everyone to force their armies to submit
>Eventually the enemy starts to adopt your technology and tactics
>Get a few good hits in
>Quickly drive up your forces, your cruelties, and put more and more resources in destructive weapons to force your enemy to submit
>Finally reign victorious over your enemies
>Force them to submit to your demands and serve your goals
>You now realize that Europeans have been treated like this all throughout history by stronger forces such as the Romans or the Ottomans
>Africans are treated to something similar for just a few hundred years
>Still use it as a scapegoat for being unable to fix your own problems

>>11479507
>do you really think I'm here just so I can "reinforce self-perceived wisdom", what do I get out of that?
That's simply what the vast majority of people are like in any argument. To change your mind, you have to actively want it. Which is obviously counter-intuitive, and foreign to the ego.
The reason I specifically said that is because people also tend to assume and assert they've won the argument if the opponent doesn't engage.
>I'm just asking you to consider if the capitalistic perspective has been good to your soul, and if not, why maintain it?
Don't you understand what "Every single assumption you make is wrong" means? I don't know who you think you're talking to.

>>11479199
Americans mate.

>>11479030
>advantages that Europeans had
false dichotomy of having and being

>>11479199
what an uneducated dweeb you are.
the black circle is all whites.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?12519-Global-genetic-distances-(graph-map)

>>11479702

Well what's your perspective then? If you really think my assumptions are so wrong, I am interested in what your counter is to my argument. It'd be a shame if this whole talk was nothing more than you saying "you dont know what you're saying" without you articulating what YOU'RE saying to me. I'm all ears man.

>>11479030
>Somewhere along the dark ages, before the enlightenment- if you could switch Africans and Europeans so that Africans would be in Europe and inherit all the advantages that Europeans had - would history be much different?
Radically, I would guess. I can't think of a single rational reason why it would be similar at all. Of course, it also depends on what you mean by "advantages".

>>11479030
If you would Switch Africans for Europeans, then Africans would deal differently with the same problems Europeans originally started with, I.E lack of resources, geographic differences causing ethnic isolation causing wars, etc.

At the same time Europeans would live in an overabundance of resources but would be too far removed from the rest of the world to gain useful information, causing slow growth.

Anything else is really culture and how that culture changes, their wants/needs, problem solving and whatever else.

Europeans have faced severe hardships to get where they are, literally thousands of generations of people who have lived in severe poverty, endless war, and constant threats of being sucked up by big entities with a much larger population.
That makes it hard to say how Africans would deal with the same situation, whether they would succeed, the events that would take place, etc.

>>11479030
>all the advantages that Europeans had

do you ever open up a fucking history book?

>>11480051
I forgot the fact that Africa has always been really easy to conquer and turn into big kingdoms, while Europe has incredibly rough terrain that makes it hard to move soldiers around, so the wars would be really different.

>>11479804
The two are mutually exclusive unless you can prove otherwise.
>>11479987
That might be true. It would certainly be very different. But what I was trying to say was that if the Africans were not be able to replicate Europe's success, it wouldn't be due to black inferiority. Unlike the opinion of many 4chan users.

Much of Africa’s history is explained by its fragile soils and erratic weather. They make for conservative social and political systems. The communities which endured were those that directed available energies primarily towards minimising the risk of failure, not maximising returns. This created societies designed for survival, not development; the qualities needed for survival are the opposite of those needed for developing, ie, making experiments and taking risks. Some societies were wealthy, but accumulating wealth was next to impossible; most people bartered and there were few traders. There were not other advantages that Europeans had, such as access to trade, inventions, ideas. Europe, the Middle East and Asia had crops that could be harvested efficently on a large scale and stored for long periods of time with the draft animals to till the earth to do it. The crops of the Africa could be grown by individuals through the year. The result was that the Americas and Africa where organized largely on sub-state tribal levels where as Europe, the Middle East and Asia where effectively organized into states. This already puts Africa at a severe disadvantage. And this modifies Africa's culture as well. The culture of African tribes is not focused on development and modernism. Their primary needs are their focus, because they are not met, as they are not organised into large states where there is a specialist for every primary need.

This explains why Africa was so primitive compared to Europe about 500 years ago. Still, Africa had the potential to develop to Europe's level, albeit much more slowly. This was harshly interrupted by European colonialism, which siphoned away African resources. And when the Europeans left, they left behind a fractured continent that can probably never catch up to Europe, despite more resources. It's just too much of a mess.

>>11480051
Yes, it is unpredictable. The point is that white supremacy is too simplistic an answer. There are many other factors at play.

Culture too. Generally speaking, African culture is definitely not conducive for development, because their primary goal has never been development. They need basic amenities before they can strive for more. On a continent where you are not even the top predator, that is very difficult. But despite having a disadvantageous culture, the idea that the Negro is a buffoon is a simplistic, arrogant answer.

>>11480065
Yes. Have you?

>>11480093
It's almost impossible to sustain empires as large as Rome in central Africa. Not only are resources limited, the population relative to land is small too.

>White supremacy

>>11480242

Big facts to all of this

Aren't Africans still basically prehistoric?

>>11480242
>Yes. Have you?

Which history books, may I ask?

>>11480391
What do you mean?

>>11480464

Oh haha sorry, I'm from NJ, it's just a phrase we use to say "yes this is true"

>>11480463
Mostly general European, Asian and African history books.

Concerning this topic, I've read
- the European miracle
- the civilising process
- the clash of civilisation
- guns germs and steel
- why the west rules - for now
And a few others, along with general research on the internet. This is actually a much explored topic for historians anon, read up.

>>11480242
First post ITT but I applaud the way you are not afraid to debate people with different opinions unlike others with your political stances. It was a fun thread thus far.

>>11480486
And I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't do well with idioms and colloquialisms

Here's the history of Africa on all it's entirety from the dawn of time all the way to modern times:
>Black niggers
The end

>>11480488
OP wants the BBC

>>11474783

>>11480535
I love how the chinese are colonializing Africa right now. Anyone got that quote of some African leader saying he wishes for the European colonialists to come back because they were kinder to them than the chinese?

>>11479438
>Give it up man, you've ignored the focal point of my argument several times. It's not as if Africa was an insular continent un-meddled by external forces. Several countries have their hand in stomping Africa to shit. Of course Africans can be held accountable to a certain degree but to put the entirety of the blame on them is pure delusion. Have some empathy, read a history book
Not all Africans are doing poorly. Generally speaking, the fifth column / cooperative tribes (either with Arabs or Europeans) are doing well, as they accepted and learned new and necessary concepts. Though in cases like Liberia this knowledge was used brutally and without the humanity or humanitarian guise the westerners had - aside from nutjobs like Leopold. Black Marxism has had similar success as Marxism everywhere - it attracts violent lower class scum and starts a practice of nepotism and bureaucratic oppression.

>>11480583
They colonize anyone they can exploit desu

>>11480242
Where Europeans are, advantages are. They create them innately.

>>11480624
Whatever the in-crowd wears becomes cool. Wherever entropy-loving melanoids are, shit goes to hell. See real life for proof.

>>11480624
What factors do they create themselves? The point of that post was that their success is due to external, arbitrary factors, and all of their internal factors are functions of external factors.

>>11480634

>>11480634
Niqqa wut

>>11479134
>what's the point of studying rome when you can study the greeks

>>11480488
You should read How The West Came to Rule by Anievas and Nişancıoğlu.

Whoa, great thread. OP is actually answering to all the trolls and doing pretty good.

>>11480399
Half of Africans own mobile phones. They're leaps and bounds ahead of Europe when it comes to using cell phones to make daily transactions.

>>11478539
so why arent the africans who were selling the slaves prosperous? you make it sound like slavery wasnt a part of african culture since time immemorial...there's a reason africans were used for slaves, its because africans sold slaves, if the chinese had sold their own people into slavery then there would have been chinese slaves all over the place, but the chinese didnt do that, the africans did

I love how people on /lit/ can write so much and yet convey so little.

>>11479193
You basically just articulated what I said with more fluff. The point is as much as cultures and enviroment influence people, certain types of people create certain types of environments and cultures.

>>11479438
Sure, but lets not pretend Sub-Saharan Africans were capable of much else and just decided to live like that.

>>11479523
Leftists and coloreds can't understand that whites were simply better at the struggle of life, we beat them and they can't stand it.

>>11479438
black people are so embarrassing, imagine having to effort post this much to defend and excuse your people's utter failure, i just feel bad for you dude, sad

>>11481396
I didn't read the post you're replying to because the guy doesn't know how to use pagebreaks. But it can't be emphasized enough how much the natives fucked themselves with the internal slave trade. In ingraining it into their economic structures they basically precluded themselves from any kind of social progress. Kings would destroy and enslave their own villages just to pay off personal debts. How far would Europe have progressed if towns and villages were erased at random all across the map for centuries?
As for the trans-Atlantic trade, European demand was high but it was still the blacks who were doing the dirty work for personal profit. The Europeans didn't have to advance further than the trading ports.

Start with the Greeks

Any good books on the history or culture of Mozambique?

>>11479507
Aleksej, you're too good for this world

pls be my fren

>>11481540
t. doesn't know anything about Africans and African history and has gotten all of his knowledge from propaganda and stereotypes

>>11481797
no actually the problem is all my knowledge isn't from propaganda and stereotypes, in case you didn't notice the last 60 years of propaganda and stereotypes say that blacks are strong big dicked alphas who have some how been humiliated by evil white devils, but these kind of insane conspiracy theories are lame and you should feel ashamed of yourself

>>11481539
>We beat them
Evidently not anon since they still exist. In the context of colonialism we gave them a good flogging, but in the long term who has reigned supreme? Higher values are not the greatest tool in the struggle of life.

>>11482980
yeah but once whites go extinct the muslims and jews will bring back slavery and the chinks dont give a rats ass about human rights so there will be no to stop them, enjoy!

>>11479160
BASED

>>11474783
Bumperino

Well, there is Ancient Egypt and uh, yeah... There is Ancient Egypt.

>>11479202
>>11479438

>blah blah le spiritul bankrupt cog btw capitalism am I rite?
It's only like this because this is the final stage before we get rid of the parasite, the real culprit behind the current state of things.

>>11480966

Rome is part of the tradition and brought actual culture in the form of literary, artistic and technological achievements, africans have nothing and their corrupt "spirituality" only comes from fear, they can't even wash their butt without the approval of the local witchdoctor. Not that there's any risk anyway but that's great because dumb and dirty = in contact with nature.

>>11484461
did you learn that from all the time you spent in Africa?

>>11484461
>It's only like this because this is the final stage before we get rid of the parasite, the real culprit behind the current state of things.
Ah yes, complicated economic and cultural processes can be reduced to one shadowy figure of a Certain People pulling the strings and having enormous, Godlike even, power over giant, chaotic structure of global economy, which they lead to certain outcomes.

I wonder what board does this poster lurk.

>africans have nothing and their corrupt "spirituality" only comes from fear, they can't even wash their butt without the approval of the local witchdoctor. Not that there's any risk anyway but that's great because dumb and dirty = in contact with nature.
Yes, religion of Yoruba people is definitely a result of primitive fear and in no way whatsoever their pantheon of lesser gods can't be compared with Greek or Roman pagan religions.
And as we all know, the common ground of religion in Africa, giant continent with difficult geography and multitude of different peoples, tribes and nations, is power of witchdoctors and shamans over anal hygiene practices of Africans. I see you're indeed a gentleman and a scholar, my good sir.

>>>/pol/

>>11478539
>Certainly, they faced discrimination and prejudice like a Jew across Asia but they had already established cultural patterns that could last long enough to overcome any political obstacles set in front of them
Why didn't African establish these?

>>11485728
The answer isn't simple. See this
>>11480242

>>11480242
at European advantages, as your point of view is begging for answer.

> Much of Africa’s history is explained by its fragile soils and erratic weather.

As much as predictable European weather wasn't easy on us, half of a year required focus on preparation for other half, incompetent people/tribes were anihilated by winter. Living through the winter was not something basic, it was a privilege of strong. Compared to Africa where indeed soils are not the best quality ,but there are places like central africa which were perfectly sustainable and rich of water.

>advantages that Europeans had, such as access to trade, inventions, ideas.

Which were clearly god given because word advantage implies europeans haven't achieved those by themselves.

Now the point which would be good to make is positive influence of harsh winter. Winter is the best judge of incompetence killing both weak and those who couldn't plan ahead good enough. It was quite clearly a factor which strengthened quality of european people. Intrestingly enough Chinese,Koreanese and Japanese who are perceived as more intelligent than their southern brothers also had to deal with same survival based development.

tl;dr winter was a motor of our development which africans never had and would explain iq gap, and their culture which is not focused on hard work.

>This explains why Africa was so primitive compared to Europe about 500 years ago. Still, Africa had the potential to develop to Europe's level, albeit much more slowly. This was harshly interrupted by European colonialism, which siphoned away African resources.

Empires rose and fall but overall there was no general development in most of tribes across Africa. Claim that they would be advanced if not evil wheypipo is irrational and needs further explanation if you want to make it valid.

>This was harshly interrupted by European colonialism, which siphoned away African resources

Also gave them technology and culture which to this day is making african lives much better than in the past.

>>11485921
I don't want to go full Jared Diamond, but argument could be made that first
- winter is not necessarily condition to develop civilization, since Sumer, Persia, Egypt etc. exist.
- not only climate but geography played huge role in differences between Europeans and Africans.

Simply put, European geography is far more conductive to trade and exchange of ideas. Subsaharan Africa had two regions with significant cultures and civilizations - West Africa along the Niger river and Horn of Africa. Both of them had more (West Africa) or less (Horn) limited contacts with other civilizations through trade. Horn of Africa actually took part in maritime part of Silk Road along Indian, Persian and Arabian coasts, West Africa only through trade routes often controlled by Berbers (Morocco, Algeria) through Sahara.

Compare it with, not even Europe per se, but with Mediterrean Sea region, which was connected through the seas, had lots of peninsulas (Africa barely has one iirc), coast was more varied and compared to Atlantic and Indian oceans currents were more calm. Mediterrean Area had Egyptians, archaic Greeks, Esturians, Romans, Ancient Israelites, Phoenicians and last but not least constant exchange with Fertile Crescent. What did Africans have compared to this? Somali and Ethiopian contacts with Arabian peninsula, Egypt and India, through Nile and Oceans? Microcosm of unstable states trading gold with Roman Empire and later Islamic World?

Other thing to consider - Europe was always more populous and more densely populated. Even at the beginning of Twentieth century Europe had higher population than Africa. In more densely populated areas ideas spread more quickly.

>>11486024
>winter is not necessarily condition to develop civilization, since Sumer, Persia, Egypt etc. exist.
truth, I believe factor of planning is crucial

Again spread of ideas was beneficial for Europe but we have to remember that each of those cultures had significant personas commiting to their own cultures. Thinkers, mathematicians etc. were present in middle east,asia and europe, very little of such figures is known in Africa.
Secondary precolumbian civilizations didn't really need such rich routes to grow. We surely don't know everything about those cultures, but many of those including Olmecs, Andian cultures, which left significant proof of advanced cultures were able to strive without trading routes, even celtic tribes were very limited with those which didn't leave their civilization too much behind.


>Europe was always more populous and more densely populated

Not always and nothing was given to us, we were numerous because we were really good at managing resources and cooperating making working societies.

From a person who read only couple of books about Africa,can you give me an insight in their literature, poetry or just general 'Great African Minds' ?

>>11478539
So woke.

>>11486143
>Again spread of ideas was beneficial for Europe but we have to remember that each of those cultures had significant personas commiting to their own cultures. Thinkers, mathematicians etc. were present in middle east,asia and europe, very little of such figures is known in Africa.
That does not mean that they didn't exist. You also seem to be under impression that the concept of individual, especially Great Individual is universal, while (IMHO) it is limited to cultures with written word and cultural aspects it entails. The only things comparable are Malian universities, which again were repository of Islamic knowledge and N'sibidi in south-eastern Nigeria region, which isn't really scripture or alphabet in the European sense of a word.

Other thing to consider here: I mentioned individuality and in African contex communality is one of few cultural phenomena you could say are universal on African continent (in this they are similar to precolonial Mexico). It seems that many inventions and knowledge that Africans take for granted and used for centuries is simply anonimous in origin similar to artists of European Middle Ages. The stress on an individual is simply not present in African cultures. In fact, the communality is so strong it's often seen as a root of giant corruption in Africa. For more literary explanation of this I recommend All Falls Apart by Chinua Achebe if you didn't read it yet. It's a story of well-meaning civil servant who nevertheless clashed with African traditions of communality.

Lastly, African cultures are insanely oral, which is only natural without the scripture. In West Africa to this day you have a caste system, where griots, village singers, are responsible for preserving memory and history of their lands. The biggest work here would be medieval Epic of Sundiata Keita and if I'm not mistaken it is performed in traditional way in Mali to this very day.

>Secondary precolumbian civilizations didn't really need such rich routes to grow. We surely don't know everything about those cultures, but many of those including Olmecs, Andian cultures, which left significant proof of advanced cultures were able to strive without trading routes, even celtic tribes were very limited with those which didn't leave their civilization too much behind.
Sorry Anon, but that's simply not true; while we don't know everything we do have proof that precolonial American trade was quite far-reaching, from Colombia (and who knows, maybe even Andes) up to Bay of Mexico. I can't comment on Olmecs in particular, but it's no accident that the greatest and most populous Amerindian civilizations were in Mesoamerica.

>Not always and nothing was given to us, we were numerous because we were really good at managing resources and cooperating making working societies.
True, still African geography is much harder for civilization than European. To this day there are many obstacles for building infrastructure in Africa;
(1/2)

>>11486143
>>11486392
To expand on last point - dense Jungles can't be compared with European forests. Everywhere where conditions were a bit better - West and East Africa and also Kongo river area - Africans managed to create state structures. The problem is that Africa is giant continent and those pockets were isolated from each other.

>From a person who read only couple of books about Africa,can you give me an insight in their literature, poetry or just general 'Great African Minds' ?
As I said, for West Africa it would be mainly griot heritage and folklore. Malian Universities and their scholars are other figures worth knowing. I mentioned Epic of Sundiata already, from Ethiopia Kebra Nagast.

As for Great African Minds, the only person I think fits the bill was Zera Yacob.

If you want to argue that African traditions are lacking compared to Eurasian ones then yes, it's true. I think though you could pose the same question about Great Amerindian Minds and you'd find similar results. Unless you know Aztec, Maya or Inca philosophers and scientists, then feel free to mention them.

>>11486392

So there are no great individuals except really few rare ones. Africans are collectivist and collective approach doesn't breed many exceptional individuals.
As much as claiming that one civilization is superior to another I can see why white supremacist do it towards africa, their lifestyle,their approach to life proved itself to be worse in majority of aspects.

>Sorry Anon, but that's simply not true; while we don't know everything we do have proof that precolonial American trade was quite far-reaching, from Colombia (and who knows, maybe even Andes) up to Bay of Mexico. I can't comment on Olmecs in particular, but it's no accident that the greatest and most populous Amerindian civilizations were in Mesoamerica.

I'm aware of the fact that trading was certainly a major factor in number of civilizations there, that's why I pointed out those civilizations that allegedly didn't grow on trade routes.

>True, still African geography is much harder for civilization than European. To this day there are many obstacles for building infrastructure in Africa;

I'm not sure if that's the case. Elder forests (I know it sounds like warhammer 40k,but that's how we call them here) were as dense as jungles, in addition they had a lot of swampy places which made it hard to pass and exploit them. Wild animals were a thing here as well. What you see today as forest is probably 1-200 years old forest sterilized by humans.
We didn't have anything for granted, we had to fight for survival and if we needed a route through forest we did what was necessary to get it.

>
If you want to argue that African traditions are lacking compared to Eurasian ones then yes, it's true. I think though you could pose the same question about Great Amerindian Minds and you'd find similar results. Unless you know Aztec, Maya or Inca philosophers and scientists, then feel free to mention them.

No,I don't know them as they were also verbal people. Can't pin this information right now,but I remember that I read once that history of (Incas/Mayans/Aztecs) was written in one book only,which was accessable only by highest of priests. It was destroyed during conquest.

Fortunately for us we can see visual manifestation of their great people. Temples, cities, their craftsmanship is astonishing and to this day proves their advancement.
Obviously their literature and poetry was burned by missionaries which honestly is one of biggest church's sins.

Again africans don't look too good in that comparassion

>>11486604
>So there are no great individuals except really few rare ones. Africans are collectivist and collective approach doesn't breed many exceptional individuals.
>As much as claiming that one civilization is superior to another I can see why white supremacist do it towards africa, their lifestyle,their approach to life proved itself to be worse in majority of aspects.

That it's also not really true, unless you subscribe to some weird Hegelian vision of history pointing to a certain point. For all intents and purposes African institutions worked well enough for them; the more successful African countries like Ghana, Christian parts of Nigeria (with special mention of Igbo people), Namibia or pre-Ethiopian war Somalia are also those, where pre-colonial institutions were also preserved to the highest degree. On the other hand, countries like DR Congo, where colonialism was the harshest, to this very day are unstable and poor. There are also cases like Liberia, where outsiders tried to replicate system they knew best.

>I'm aware of the fact that trading was certainly a major factor in number of civilizations there, that's why I pointed out those civilizations that allegedly didn't grow on trade routes.
I mean, Olmecs and Celtics aren't really impressive IMHO, but I see what you mean.

>I'm not sure if that's the case. Elder forests (I know it sounds like warhammer 40k,but that's how we call them here) were as dense as jungles, in addition they had a lot of swampy places which made it hard to pass and exploit them. Wild animals were a thing here as well. What you see today as forest is probably 1-200 years old forest sterilized by humans.
Europe didn't have as many diseases wreaking havoc as regularly as Africa (malaria for example). The only thing comparable is Black Death which came and go, but wasn't constantly present all around continent [I'm quite reaching here, I'm no epidemiologist]. Big part of Africa is also in equator zone with constant rain. I don't think they're comparable to European circumstances. Also I'm not sure that bears are comparable to, for example, hippopotams which to this day kill the most people in Africa from all animals, wolves with not only lions, but also hyenas, jaguars etc.

>No,I don't know them as they were also verbal people.
In general I think West Africa and precolonial Mexico have many similarities.

>Fortunately for us we can see visual manifestation of their great people. Temples, cities, their craftsmanship is astonishing and to this day proves their advancement.
>Obviously their literature and poetry was burned by missionaries which honestly is one of biggest church's sins.

>Again africans don't look too good in that comparassion
I'd argue that churches carved in stone in Lalibela, Ethiopia are perfectly comparable with medieval Mesoamerica. That and Walls of Benin, arguably the greatest African achievement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin
(1/2)

>>11486604
>>11486687
Even European adventurers that visited Benin were astounded by Walls, which we thankfully have in sources. Now, why we don't hear about them more often?

Africa didn't have material as durable as marble or stone which could be use for architecture, thus they mainly built in mud (I don't know why they didn't use tropical wood, I guess there might be a reason for it). We don't have much of Walls left because material wasn't simply durable and which is why we have lot of Ethiopian stone churches.

As for craft, African metallurgy and sculpture are pretty impressive - especially Yoruba sculpture which are sometimes even better than European sculptures from the same epoch.

Lastly, West Africans (again - anonymously) had knowledge or maybe rather awareness? of existence of fractals which was discovered by Europeans only in Twentieth century. Lot of African aesthetics were based on fractals (without underlying mathematical theory of course).

What I mean is not that Africa wuz wakanda and sheet, but even comparing indigenous civilizations of West Africa and Mesoamerica they aren't that much far off and many misconceptions and stereotypes are simply born of ignorance. Both WA and Mesoamerica cannot be in any way compared to Eurasian heritage, but that doesn't mean whole America and Africa were savages.

And I wouldn't write about it so much if it weren't for /pol/ spamming memes and leading many salvageable minds astray.

It's pretty obvious that niggers are dumber than the rest, but I do agree that there are some redeeming features to niggers. I personally admire their extraversion, their happy go lucky attitude and their sense of rythm. I kinda wish I could emulate that.

Also, if you want to know how medieval Africa looked like Ibn Batthuta's Voyages is a great source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta

>>11486727
>Lot of African aesthetics were based on fractals
I'm intrigued; any examples?

I wish the argument you're using were better understood. Between the camp that imagines precolonial Africa as bone-in-the-nose savagery and the "we wuz Wakanda" camp, there's nothing but mutual incomprehension, and I think both are destructive to the 'negritude' cause. What I wish everyone could agree on is that Africans were normal, functional societies complete with currencies, bureaucracies, high literacy rates (west and central), a crippling slave trade, a wealth of astronomical and medicinal knowledge, a huge burden of ignorance -- in fact it was exactly as miserable to live in 18th century Timbuctoo as it was to live in 18th century Paris. Humanize that era of human history so we can come to terms with what was lost, instead of trying to erase it like we did pre-1950, or idealize it as we've done ever since.
The exact same thing needs to happen for justice to be done in contemporary Africa -- teach people in the West that Africans are normal humans living normal lives, with mobile phones, Facebook accounts, job worries, favorite TV shows, student debt...

>>11486804
>I wish everyone could agree on is that Africans were normal, functional societies complete with currencies, bureaucracies, high literacy rates (west and central),
Wakanda tier

>>11486762
One redeeming feature of niggers is that they can spell.

>>11486809
English is not my native language, nigger.

>>11486810
There are more polyglots per capita in Africa than anywhere else.

>>11486814
I wouldn't say that knowing a few sentences in order to sell trinkets to tourists means you can speak a language.

>>11486687

I can agree that some parts of Africa were better developed than other,yet compared to any other civilization it was still not impressive.

>I mean, Olmecs and Celtics aren't really impressive IMHO, but I see what you mean.

Celtic culture is one of my favourite, I thought person like you,going so soft on Africa would value expansion through strong culture and strength of community,rather than militar conquest.

>Europe didn't have as many diseases wreaking havoc as regularly as Africa (malaria for example).

We used to have a lot of problems with diseases but most of nations figured that hygiene helps, also abrahamic has a lot of laws which forbid potentially epidemic behavior. No idea how it worked in Africa.

>Africa didn't have material as durable as marble or stone which could be use for architecture

Ethiopia is pretty mountainy region rich of stone, not sure but it also might be possible to craft bricks near the great lakes. Buildings you pointed out also prove there was possibility for advanced nation to come up with monumental buildings.


>What I mean is not that Africa wuz wakanda and sheet, but even comparing indigenous civilizations of West Africa and Mesoamerica they aren't that much far off and many misconceptions and stereotypes are simply born of ignorance.

I agree ignorance and shallow knowledge are factors which highly undermine african history in common understandment, but I would argue if it's hurtful or beneficial for european cultures, which as person seeing their destruction I want to preserve.

>>11486804
https://fractalenlightenment.com/18685/fractals/fractals-a-part-of-african-culture

> teach people in the West that Africans are normal humans living normal lives, with mobile phones,
Funnily enough mobile phones are so widespread that even Somalia, country in the state of anarchy, has like 10 mobile operators (my country has like 4). Widespread usage of mobile phones in Africa is linked with orality; social capital is linked with who you know and what influence it gives you, hence mobile phone becomes great, indispensable asset.

>>11486834
>Celtic culture is one of my favourite, I thought person like you,going so soft on Africa would value expansion through strong culture and strength of community,rather than militar conquest.
So I take it you like Bantus then? :^)

>We used to have a lot of problems with diseases but most of nations figured that hygiene helps, also abrahamic has a lot of laws which forbid potentially epidemic behavior. No idea how it worked in Africa.
You can do only so much in tropical climates. Europeans colonized Africa only in late Ninetieth century precisely because of those diseases, which weren't curable before advent of modern medicine. To put in perspective, Portuguese converted Kingdom of Kongo to Catholicism in Sixteenth century (without use of force btw; Kingdom of Kongo is fascinating in its own right).

>Ethiopia is pretty mountainy region rich of stone, not sure but it also might be possible to craft bricks near the great lakes. Buildings you pointed out also prove there was possibility for advanced nation to come up with monumental buildings.
Mind that no civilization build monumental buildings for the sake of them.
You probably mean Great Zimbabwe; still it was quite far from other centres of civilization.

>I agree ignorance and shallow knowledge are factors which highly undermine african history in common understandment, but I would argue if it's hurtful or beneficial for european cultures, which as person seeing their destruction I want to preserve.
Well, that is a different issue altogether, irrelevant to this discussion even. I just dislike the bones-in-nose as whole Africa narrative because it's simply intellectually lazy.

>>11474783

African History: A Very Short Introduction - John Parker and Richard Rathbone
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/african-history-a-very-short-introduction-9780192802484

African Religions: A Very Short Introduction - Jacob K. Olupona
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/african-religions-a-very-short-introduction-9780199790586

>>11486945
>So I take it you like Bantus then? :^)
I'm sorry anon, they're dirty niggers :(


>You can do only so much in tropical climates. Europeans colonized Africa only in late Ninetieth century precisely because of those diseases, which weren't curable before advent of modern medicine. To put in perspective, Portuguese converted Kingdom of Kongo to Catholicism in Sixteenth century (without use of force btw; Kingdom of Kongo is fascinating in its own right).

You're right diseases are significant factor, but as we both know same situation could be told about southern Asia (Malaria was historically valid there, similar climat, maybe even worse) and it didn't stop them from developing quite advanced cultures.

>Mind that no civilization build monumental buildings for the sake of them.

True they usually build them for higher purpose, it's weird that african tribes didn't develop one. I thought shamanism was very well esablished there.

>. I just dislike the bones-in-nose as whole Africa narrative because it's simply intellectually lazy.

agreed

>>11478460
>f we measure things in terms of "who has the higher IQ" of coures the European win
AKSHULLY....

>>11487012
>I'm sorry anon, they're dirty niggers :(
Wow bro cool it with the racism bro not cool bro

bro

>You're right diseases are significant factor, but as we both know same situation could be told about southern Asia (Malaria was historically valid there, similar climat, maybe even worse) and it didn't stop them from developing quite advanced cultures.
I don't get why you ignore that Yoruba and Igbo were on at least on the level of Mesoamerica, but I digress.

Do you mean India as southern Asia? India between Persia and China, with trade routes going through northern, fertile part of subcontinent which is still the most popoulus and through the coast? Or do you mean South East Asia and Indochina, which had geography much more similar with Mediterrean (with all those islands and peninsulas) than with uniform land mass that is Africa?

>True they usually build them for higher purpose, it's weird that african tribes didn't develop one. I thought shamanism was very well esablished there.
I don't know about Great Lakes or Ethiopia, but arguably Walls of Benin are as monumental as they come, second in Africa only to Pyramids.

>>11487096
>Or do you mean South East Asia and Indochina,
Precisely that and even tho geographically they are indeed simialr to Mediterrean, climat is just like in central africa, only worse - Tropical monsoon climate. Mosquitos love that kind of climat.

>I don't know about Great Lakes or Ethiopia, but arguably Walls of Benin are as monumental as they come, second in Africa only to Pyramids.

Pretty much yes that is pretty monumental structure and it has to be taken into consideration.

>>11487131
>Precisely that and even tho geographically they are indeed simialr to Mediterrean, climat is just like in central africa, only worse - Tropical monsoon climate. Mosquitos love that kind of climat.
True. Still SEA had unique position of being between China and India (hence "Indianized Kingdoms" term - in fact Island states in SEA owe much of their civilization to Indian achievements). I'd risk saying that SEA in spite of its climate had advantage of exchange with more established centers.

Anyway, nice talk, man, but I feel I'd go too far trying to say something about SEA. Have fun.

>>11487194
Was a nice one,have a good life

History of Africa by Kevin Shillington


https://www.amazon.com/dp/0230308473

>>11487417
/thread
jesus fucking christ

>>11478441
Silly point. It takes great ingenuity to afflict great atrocities like European people have done. Africans are much more violent and animalistic; ceteris paribus, could you image the untold horrors they would unleash if they had the ability to create WMDs etc? Of course this is pure fantasy; their unruliness feeds into both their violent tendencies and their inability to perfect war and domination.

>>11481364
lmao this reminds me of all those random African twitter accounts who tweet incoherently at politicans, whose bios always big them up as Entrepreneurs, Marketing Executives, all-around Go Getters. You see this delusion too in Western blacks...the "grind" talk, the king/queen flattery bestowed upon anyone who managed to get a token job at a big company and brags about it on social media, ultimately only serving the company's corporate image....you people sicken me, truly.

>>11486814
*clicks at you*
Lookie here, a real Noam Chomsky!

>>11480399
No. Australian Aboriginals are.

>>11485790
You seem to point to ideas, trade, and inventions coming from nowhere. As if establishing a city in a certain spot simply means trade would appear there.