/lit/ - Literature

>>11316208
psychologically speaking, engaging in this sort of politics is corrosive as fuck. it necessarily fills you with contempt and hostility, gives you terrible antisocial proclivities, and a propensity to narcissistic pretension

i am not saying 'both sides are the same' because they are not, but they are both poison to your psyche

Lasch is well worth reading

If you want a taste of Lasch grab these articles with sci-hub

"The Family as a Haven in a Heartless World": https://www.jstor.org/stable/40546941
"The Waning of Private Life": https://www.jstor.org/stable/40546957

>>11316473
Thanks, anything else of his you'd recommend or just read all of his books and articles basically?

>>11316208
Did he actually say "globo-homo?" I never thought the lingo from TRS would make it on something like this.

>>11316208
This just sounds like a structuralist diagnostic of what Peterson sees as a psychological phenomenon. It doesn't sound like they disagree much with each other.

I have no idea what the hell any of this shit is about, but I completely disregard anyone who uses pompous as fuck words like "prescient."
Seriously. Fuck you OP.

>>11316208
James Burnham is on the same train of thought.

>>11316755
Not quite. Peterson is defending the contemporary economic order, whether you call it managerial liberalism or neoliberalism, from the so-called resentful adherents of 'Marxist postmodernism', whereas Lasch and Burnham find many of our current problems and ailments to be symptomatic of the system we have now.

>>11316760
Wrong board.

>>11316208
I hold him in the same regard as Ellul, Beaudrillard, Nietzsche, Marx, Lewis Mumford, and Neil Postman. He's definitely worth reading.

Honestly disappointed and surprised by the lack of interest this thread is generating.

>>11317376
Post it in pol or biz, or specify books by the person in OP, you shitcunt. This is a literature board.

>>11317581
>/lit/ is an apolitical board

>>11317600
No it isnt, it just isn't the arena for the discussion of politics. Stop being a daft shitcunt.

>>11317376
Lasch isn't wholly unknown, but he doesn't seem like a big figure for anyone except maybe fans of The Last Psychiatrist. (Alone's notion of narcissism isn't exactly the same as Lasch's, but he owes a lot to Lasch.)

I guess for anyone who might be even a little interested in what Lasch may be about, here's a three part review of The Culture of Narcisissm:

https://samzdat.com/2017/07/17/a-taylorism-for-all-seasons/

https://samzdat.com/2017/08/01/reinventing-the-wheel-of-fortune/

https://samzdat.com/2017/08/12/thats-amore/

>>11317605
>>11317581
Shut the fuck up, Liberal.

>>11318354
Based.

he leans a little too heavily on psychoanalytic categories to gain my full confidence, but i can separate enough of that out to appreciate his analysis in culture of narcissism.
he is for a very old-school brand of individualism that i am not sure is nor ever was a common quality. as a standard to hold over and against the great tide of things, i don't think it's enough. it may encourage the few that are actually capable of their independence, but most of them will be subsumed in spite of their best efforts.

I didn't know of him, but liked what I read.

It's incredible how it works as a double blind. It's so delicate talking about this, because you offend those who identify as left and as right by accusing them from what they have been accusing the other of doing. At the same time, it's not centrist, neutral or apolitical at all.

>>11318136
Thanks, will check out.

>>11316208
Was Lasch Nazbol?

>>11316208
DISTRIBUTIST SOCIETY WHEN?

>>11316220
what does that matter when it's true? Should we turn away like sheep for the sake of alleviation from mental strain? Why not strive to correct the world, so that we may lead correct lives?

>>11316220
And if the common alternative if plain narcissism, what then? Just dig in with no possibility of being able to face it?

>>11316760
Fuck off

>>11316897
Burnham was a plagiarist with not one original though in his mind.
Everything he wrote comes from Rizzo's The bureaucratization of the world.

an overstatement of idpol

>>11316760
kys

>>11316208
Do you have a blog I can read?

dude what if narcissism but bigly
so thats where tlp got his autism from

>>11319161
>Should we turn away like sheep for the sake of alleviation from mental strain?

sounds a lot like mark fisher, which is odd because I don't remember any reference to lasch in his books

Lasch is incredibly based. He is ignored deliberately.

>>11316208
About to read culture of narcissism

What am I getting myself into

>>11316208
Good post.

>>11318136
(Are you the guy that mentioned TLP a few weeks ago? Fuck you buddy, I spent a few weeks compulsively reading his archive (actually thank you, but holy fuck -- imagine what he'd have to say today about Trump and Kim and Putin. Kind of sad that he stopped.) )

You might also consider The Baffler (thebaffler dot com), a (((leftist))) little magazine of ideas with lots of Laschian DNA. Also after "The Culture of Narcissism" make sure to read Lasch's "The Revolt of the Elites". Then consider reading some Rorty.

CHRISTOPHER LASCH IS NAZBOL

>The Revolt of the (((Elites)))
Why have elites become alienated from the polis? Why do they lack the necessary philia to the nation underneath them? What could be the reason?

>>11320836
I wasn't familiar with The Baffler, so thank you anon!

>>11319052
i wish i had a franciscan doggo

>>11316208

This sounds very interesting. What should I read of him?

>>11321081
The Culture of Narcissism is his classic, but just about anything by him is really good, such as >>11320855 for example.

>>11321081
Start with the Culture of Narcissism, after that pretty much anything he wrote. The Minimal Self is a favorite of mine. Lasch suffers from his over-reliance on psychoanalysis, but is definitely worth a read.

TLP might be worth checking out if you find this stuff interesting.

>>11320836
Baffler seems interesting, thanks anon.

>>11320836
I want to like the Baffler but their quality is just so shaky. Some of the articles I've read from them were great and genuinely heterodox, but some are jacobin-tier McLeftist screeds. I remember they once called Rene Girard a "conservative philosopher" (which he assuredly isn't) just because Peter Thiel liked him and he's catholic. Stopped reading them after that (not because of that but it was the straw that broke the camel's back).

>>11321240
Going through their articles, that seems right. They do seem to have a virtue of coming at Leftist matters from a stance more interesting than Jacobin, but I guess it depends on the writer.

>>11320012
Search for "narcissism" at The Last Psychiatrist (which uses a Lasch heavy formulation of the term), or the reviews of one of Lasch's books linked at >>11318136.

>>11316208
Rawls and Foucault are both products of CIA backing though, you can blame either reasonably well.

>>11322134
Are you actually OP because that blog doesn't look like it has anything to do with the topic at hand.

>>11323173
OP is definitely not Alone.

>>11323173
No, but TLP is pretty well known among blog trawlers (well liked among the Slate Star Codex set), and it's a relatively rare example of a thematization of Lasch's work.

>>11323253
>the Slate Star Codex set
the gayest possible group of people

>>11323253
What am I missing? It's a Tumblr feed filled with pseudo-profundity.

>>11323582
The relation to Lasch is the thematization of Lasch's understanding of narcisissm. Use the search bar on the blog to look up narcissism for essays more steadily devoted to it.

>>11324079
Could you explain what the caveman has to do with anything?

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/narcissism/

I feel like I read an essay by Lasch once before, and another particularly autistic post from /pol/ analyzing Harry Potter through the lens of narcissism, but I just don't see what whole foods or any of his cryptic captioning has to do with it. Not trying to dismiss it out of turn, just not seeing the connection.

>>11324354
The essay on funeral behavior? Been a while since I've read that one, but if I'm remembering it, roughly, narcissism shows up as the nervous attempt on the part of loved ones to make the person who's lost someone feel better, that is, their narcissism gets in the way of letting someone channel their emotions in a healthy way (through mourning), in order to indulge in the narcissist's desire to be the center of things by being helpful at the expense of someone else's feelings.

To be a bit broader, Lasch is dealing with issues of identity and of social masks and how these relate to behavior. As just about anyone honest will say (for example, that first Samzdat link above), his definition is somewhat loose but grasps at related phenomena. The Last Psychiatrist just happens to be one of those weird internet bloggers who happened to have made use of most of Lasch's understanding of narcissism to inform his own understanding of psychiatry and human psychology (among a bunch of other thinkers).

These are relatively clearer or should be, since they're all essay focused particularly on narcissism:

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/12/if_this_is_one_of_the_sexiest.html

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/11/a_generational_pathology.html

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/07/when_a_culture_is_this_investe_1.html

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/08/just_because_you_see_it_doesnt.html

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/10/the_story_of_narcissus.html

Hopefully these are more helpful/concrete both for seeing what he's doing, and to get an idea of what Lasch is looking at.

>>11324566
I didn't realize it was an essay. Besides that one, every other thing I clicked was just an image with a contextless caption. Reading the funeral article now and I definitely get the appeal. Cheers, Anon.

>>11324566
>>11324618
>But how can she let go, how can she do what needs to be done, under the oppressive gaze of self-conscious people who need her to know they came? "I just want to support her!" Then you'd go back to your car, connect a hose from the exhaust pipe to a slightly opened window, and wait it out.

I was on board until here, that sounds just as narcissistic as what he's describing.

>>11324629
It’s a joke.

>>11324629
How so? On whose part?

The way I'm taking it (just looking at what you've quoted), he's noting that the narcissist's behavior towards the grieving woman is an imposition that prevents her from doing what she might need to do, which includes grieving. TLP then parodies the response he expects of the narcissist in the story (or reading the essay), that he "just wants to support her". That is, the narcissist wants to help, but primarily to protect or enforce or shore up his own identity as "someone who helps grieving women", and not as someone sensitive to what the circumstance might require.

>>11324834
>>11324758
Idk, telling someone to kill themselves for lacking awareness just seems like you're kind of full of yourself, unless his use of the word narcissism is jargonistic.

His other material seems mostly the same. An embittered alcoholic who is is neither cold nor hot - he is perfect because he refuses to take concrete stands on any particular topic even as he gives off the appearance of a fleshed-out belief system. It's a popular mode of pseuding (I know because I do it here, too, and recognize when others do it).

I could be wrong. The writing is actually still very good, amusing, but I don't know that it's something I would invest in.

>>11316208

Is there any specific piece that expands on what you say about identity politics? That bit sounded really interesting and I'd like to know more, thank you.

>>11325085
It’s clearly a hyperbole for comedic purposes.

>>11316208
>. If anything, you should be blaming Rawls instead of Foucault. Peterson manages to 'own' leftists only because he is defending middle class commonsense against the increasingly intrusive psychopolitical demands of the managerial globohomo leviathan.
That's very good, I like that.

>>11316208
Have you guys ever noticed how on Redit it seems like the purportedly depressed (who are very knowledgeable as to what that entails and why your thoughts and prayers mean nothing, though they've never actually been diagnosed) are exhibiting this sort of behavior?

I was just reading an archived post about that Anon on /r9k/ who killed himself.

>https://www.RED DIT.com/r/MorbidReality/comments/84quq1/a_4chan_user_commited_suicide_on_livestream/dvse8zb/

He basically says "Oh yeah, those people who try to help me are just narcissists, and they're delusional to think they can heal me of this unique and unassailable affliction, but you know what I really want? Someone to listen to my dumbass problems and to validate everything about the way that I'm thinking, presumably so that I will have at least one effortless conquest." Which, of course never happens because people quickly sniff out the true nature of their caustic personalities. I was fully in this sort of mindset a few years ago and it just annoys me to have to listen to their constant excuses for why they're so defective. So long as they make their satisfaction contingent upon external goods, it never changes, but so few will actually listen. The fact is, having those passive 'narcissists' in your life who care about you even if they don't want to spend all day validating your bullshit is usually the only thing that keeps you from offing yourself.

>>11325367
While I'm confessing my sins I'll also admit to stumbling into /r/RaisedByNarcissists, which is a case study into why genetic heritability is a 100% thing, because absolutely all of them are as insufferable as the people they claim to be surrounded by.

>>11325367
>>11325374
>hurr durr everything is narcissism
it's like I'm really reading TLP

>>11325421
I don't think depression in general is a narcissism, I've just noticed that all of these traits seem to cluster way too closely to be a coincidence.

>My life sucks
>I am unhappy that my life sucks
>The cause of my dissatisfaction is an immutable personality disorder rooted in a mechanistic brain chemistry that I am powerless to change without drugs (can't actually get them because they haven't been diagnosed).
>My life would be so great if only I possessed some external good, like a functional brain, a better living situation, a girlfriend, a friend in general, money, looks, status, esteem, etc.
>But I don't
>So my life sucks

You can't honestly tell me you haven't seen this exact train of thought play out before, unless you're just mocking me because you're one of the moody cunts I'm describing.

>>11322266
Do you/anyone have more on the CIA angle in regards to 20th century philosophy? I remember reading a while back that Marcuse worked for them, now why would the CIA hire a marxist?

>>11325484
Why wouldn't they? You hire whoever will help you destabilize your opponents best. Russia supports the European far right for this purpose, not because they actually share their ideas.

>>11316760
retard and proud

>>11325484
>Do you/anyone have more on the CIA angle in regards to 20th century philosophy? I remember reading a while back that Marcuse worked for them, now why would the CIA hire a marxist?
Basically, the US wanted to direct left-wing energy in a direction not amenable to Russian influence. This is probably why American leftism has more of a Maoist bent, except that we in America have Racial Maoism instead of whatever they actually did in China.

>>11327336
In particular, I should add that lots of American elites, who work in elite universities, the civil service (especially the State department and the CIA), judiciary, and media, have historically been fans of Communism. Similarly, you had far-right sympathizers among big business. Each "side" on the far-left and far-right likes to document how the CIA was helping the other guys, and how that's evil.

The reality is that most intelligence operations on both fringes were primarily anti-Russian, and more or less irrelevant to what ideology Russia was practicing at the moment. Russia is one of the few states that can pose an existential threat to the US, as American strategists see it. This is why so many in the American government are still obsessed with Russia, despite Russia's decline in relevancy. The USG is slow to react.

Finished Culture of Narcissism last week. I found it had a fascinating analysis of our 'Western Culture'. Even something as trivial as professional sports was examined and shown to have degenerated profoundly. His political orientation is quite unique, which I thought was fresh, as he understands left critiques i.e. marxism but offers a synthesis of right-left ideology

>>11316208
>Christopher Lasch
Ye Gads! You reached DEEP into your ass to pull this out. This is time machine grade stuff. I remember reading "The Revolt of the Elites: And the Betrayal of Democracy" when I was working on my MBA i the mid-90s. He was the J. Peterson of the day. Grumpy old man, pointing out things he didn't like. Some relevant, some WTF? tier. He was spot on about the "global elite" assraping everyone in every country, for their own benefit. Read the book, anon's. It's worth it.

bump

>>11316208
>Christopher Lasch
Fuck yes!

>>11316208
This is the best thing I've ever read on /lit/. Good work anon!

>>11316760
if prescient is a pompous word for you... damn... I don't know what to say.

>>11325085
>telling someone to kill themselves for lacking awareness just seems like you're kind of full of yourself, unless his use of the word narcissism is jargonistic
It's worth clarifying that being full of onesellf isn't sufficient for TLP as a definition of narcissism, which is something he goes into in more depth in some of the links at >>11324566. It's not that the person trying to help the griever is full of themself in doing so, but is treating the griever like a secondary character while they play protagonist by "being the kind of person who helps someone grieving", regardless of the feelings of the latter. A narcissist *may* be self-aggrandizing or overly concerned with others are doing, but that need not translated to "narcissist". All TLP is getting at with his exaggerated "kys" is that the narcissist needs to back off if they really want to help and not impose themselves.

>His other material seems mostly the same. An embittered alcoholic who is is neither cold nor hot - he is perfect because he refuses to take concrete stands on any particular topic even as he gives off the appearance of a fleshed-out belief system. It's a popular mode of pseuding (I know because I do it here, too, and recognize when others do it).
There are a lot of times when I read him where I'm not sure what he's up to. He stopped writing around the time he got doxxed, and he's an actual practicing psychiatrist who knows his shit. But that makes me wonder to what extent he's also skillfully putting on playful masks when he writes. Sometimes in his later articles he tries to throw people off by writing as if he's a woman, and I wonder to what extent the whole "drunk pirate" shtick is a part of that.

But yes, he totally ha a certain shtick that can read entertainingly when done well, but which comes off like trying to impress people like he has access to special insights.

Any which way, I think he's good at pointing to some of the issues RE: narcissism from a psychiatric and media studies perspective, and if those issues seem interesting, you should check out Lasch, who's so much better.

>>11319161
You sound like a virgin

>>11316208
muy bien anon

>>11316208

Surprisingly I agree. Normally I see this critique style stuff as utter bs but this hits the nail on the head.

But have you guys considered the new development that /pol/, who are always ahead of the curve, have completely seen through and discarded this classical liberalism mentality?

>>11329979
i am basically pol infinitely ahead of the curve, and pol taken to its actual conclusion is erasion o praxis, and every immensity of revelation that procurs in your particularity

>>11329979
Fuck ooooooffffffffffff

>>11328857
Irrelevant