/lit/ - Literature

In what way did he handle it like a bitch?
He seemed to hold himself together remarkably even in the very late stages.

>>11310794
He handled death with remarkable poise and dignity, though I suspect you knew that.

>>11310794
LOOK
AT
THE TOP
OF
HIS
HEAADDDDDD
OHNONONO

>>11310794
Christians hate death more

>>11312298
>>11310816
FEDORA IDIOTS
TAKE THE CATHOLIC PILL
YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY, UNVIRTOUS KEK LMAO
PIECES OF SHIT

>>11310794
But he was fine.

A worse story is this dude, he converted from Islam to Christianity, wrote best-selling books about it, got stomach cancer within a few years, prayed for a healing miracle, and died.

>My family and I have received the news that I have advanced stomach cancer, and the clinical prognosis is quite grim. Nonetheless, we are going to pursue healing aggressively, both medical and miraculous, relying on God and the fact that He is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine.

>>11312336
I don’t understand why religious people are so afraid of death. It really seems like they don’t believe what they’re preaching, and I say that as someone who is not an atheist

>>11312317
I see no reason to think of something which has no empirically observable relation to material reality as "true".

>>11312362
The afterlife sours the material life, as it make all they years you've lived feel like some sort of massive DMV test to get into heaven. They are fine with it unitl the time comes, and then they realize that they preached that life was meaningless BECAUSE the afterlife exists.

>>11312372
FEDORA FEDORA FEDORA

>>11312362
Well it makes sense if you like life, doesn't it? That's the funny part, Christians don't like life either.

>>11312362
Christians (as well as many people who profess other beliefs) believe that there is a sort of "second life" after death. They never actually have to cope with the idea of death as the end of the existence of a life.

>>11312362
It all depends on how devout they are. Devoted Christians do not fear death. You fear the pain and suffering that accompanies death, but not the death itself. And you remember that it is a beautiful thing to die for Christ.

>>11312419
What I fear is not pain, but rather death as the opposite of life.
Life is full of both beautiful and ugly things, and beautiful things, like music, paintings, the smell of bright green pine needles and oak leaves during a late spring's day, a late afternoon breeze, and even the feeling of love towards others are what make human life worth living. In life, one is free to do or think as they please, and engage in all sorts of wonderful experiences. Death, however, is the end of life. Even if there were an afterlife, like theologians and prophets claim, I do not think I would very much enjoy spending the rest of an endless eternity constantly worshipping the Almighty. This is why the idea of reincarnation is more appealing to me.

>>11312462
Reincarnation might as well be annihilation, though, since you are not conscious of your past life. It's not as though your same consciousness is preserved when you reincarnate, is it?

Also, you don't quite have the right idea of Heaven. Union with God, oneness with God, is a greater joy than anything conceivable on Earth. All earthly pleasures are a pale shadow of communion with God, the greatest pleasure of all.

>>11312462
Nocturna's promise.

>>11312362
Why wouldn't death be uncomfortable for a Christian? Admit that we're all sinners and admit the existence of hell and then tell me how comfortable you are with that reality. Atheism is the way to go if you want comfort because there's nothing after life.

>>11312317
>>11312372
Pathetic samefag

>>11312504
In either case, if I were to die without an afterlife, I would not experience anything. Neither suffering, nor pleasure, not any sense at all. "Greatest joy" and "nothing at all" are the same in this case, because I am lacking completely the capacity to register anything. From this perspective, I don't see either as better than the other.
Like you said, reincarnation is the same for this self that I discriminate apart from others, however, it allots for other consciousnesses as being this discriminated self, which can suffer and strive for pleasure. I am not that anon, so although I find things in this world very beautiful, I do not think I fear death. If I do reincarnate, then either this cycle is unchanging and therefore I can do nothing to change it, or if there is a way out of this cycle, I will find it in the future given the sheer length of an eternity of different incarnations.

Sometimes I wonder if a almost martyr complex like passion is desirable or not. There are many unfaithful who's faces showed horror as they died and many who remained stoic through even the most terrible torture.

>>11312570
>Infinite non-existence
>Comfort
Pick one

>>11312362
>>11312336

I consider myself to be an evangelical Orthodox Christian and I am terrified of death. We are all weak, imperfect and have fallen short of the glory of God. I have weaknesses that I have not overcome, I am young, I still sin far too frequently and I struggle to make amends. Part of has a fear that I will die and God will not forgive me for my sins, even though the church teaches that he is allpowerful, forgiving and loving.

Eternal disconnect from the Father would be too much for me to handle. That's why I fear death. Because I want to be with Christ so badly and yet I'm scared I am not worthy.

>>11310794
JUST

>>11310794
I know this is bait but I haven't seen anyone acting with so much dignity in the face of death.
He may not have been one of the best thinkers in the world but he certainly was one of the bravest

>>11312304
>OHNONONO

...yeah, cancer does that.

I think this all works like a pendulum and newthiest whiners and religious dick heads take turns making themselves look completely unappealing. Who the fuck would want to hang out with any of you?

I don't know if it's possible for me to disagree with Hitchens more than I do - he was simultaneously an economic Marxist, a neocon in foreign policy, and an anti-theist. Yet despite this, he's one of my favorite media personalities and speakers ever. I can't say anything like that about anyone else.

>>11312946
God isn't real r tard

Was this the most /lit/ death of all time?

>>11313299
Why? You're not the first person I've heard say this and I don't understand because to me he's the worst sort of sophist. I have never heard a good argument from him and he has done extremely bad journalism yet he somehow managed to convince people he isn't a charlatan.

>>11312362
I found it to be quite the opposite in my experience. It is often the atheists who shove death away, as they shove old people to die in homes or in the hospital. They fear death in far greater terms yet often do not want to admit it. Christians are just more open in speaking on it. In a certain sense though, they also don't fear it, as in their actions in this world ultimately carry no consequence once they are dead.

posting the better brother

>>11313742
>In a certain sense though, they also don't fear it, as in their actions in this world ultimately carry no consequence once they are dead.
atheists that is*

>>11310794
Tell me is eternal suffering, but existence worse or better than eternal non-existence?

>>11310794
How fucking stupid do you have to be to think that there is some magical "nothing" after life. Just idiots who watch TV and read books and get it in their heads that there is some mystical black void awaiting them. Mindblowing how this is the default smart answer for mid wit athiests.


OOOHH SHIT IM SUCH AN INTELLECTUAL BC I ARBITRARILY CHOSE A CONCEPT REFERERRED TO AS VOID TO BE THE ANSWER TO A PROBLEM THAT WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AND CANNOT SAY TO BE PURELY MATERIAL IN NATURE. GIB PSEUD CRED PLS

>>11313837
so mad and brainlet too, sad.

>>11313347
He didn't always have the best things to say, but he always said them in a really pleasing way. He was a better speaker than thinker, if that makes any sense.

Peter is the complete opposite, incidentally, which makes for a very interesting contrast.

>>11313837
If we don't know anything about it, how does that lend any more credibility to the belief of Jesus Chirst the savior and the Lord God?

>>11313837
Problem is that those brainlet atheists take absurd and polarized stance onto something they know they don't know but do it due to their subjective perception of Church as institution ( in which they also take extremely polarized absurd stance ) that influences their contemplation of God. Just reading and understanding metaphysics warrant you at least an agnostic. So unlike believing which stems form delusion, atheism stems from bitterness, envy and vanity.

>>11313837
>How fucking stupid do you have to be to think that there is some magical "nothing" after life
People have seen it with their own eyes you fucking idiot

>I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence...the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.

>>11312336
Death for apostates. Islam is Hotel California.

>>11310794
Good riddance to bad rubbish I say. Hope he's enjoying the pit

wait there are people in real life who are actually atheists? i literally thought they weren't being serious. that they were just memeing

>>11314150
Big Bang cosmology was designed to mold antitheist worldviews and it's taught in every school.

>>11312915
this lol

>>11312362
Meeting God is scarier than anything else. Imagine running away from home and having to return at some point, but with the intensity of the entire Universe and more.

>>11312915
all those years before I was born felt pretty comfy desu

>>11314165
Is this bait? It has to be bait, right?
Good thing Christianity allows me the right to ignore the intentionally misguided.

>>11312946
>evangelical Orthodox Christian

wtf haha

>>11312317
Lmao

>>11314236
So why did you born'?

>>11314165
Wasn't the Big Bang theory (not the TV show) created by a Christian priest?

>>11314305
I tip my fedora to you fellow based atheist!

>>11314305
Atheism is connected to fatherlessness and bad relationship with the father. Niggers don't have any, and can't have any - hence why they are promoted.
You got your name and heritage from your father. Atheism is the death of civilization because civilization (and God) is the patriarchy - rule of father.

The Hitchens' brothers both have choleric temperaments and a very keen sense of justice, meaning that they felt very comfortable handing out sanctimonious judgment in public. There's no way that Christopher Hitchens didn't feel, at least on some level, that his sense of righteousness and judgement must come from a higher source. You can't go around acting like God the Judge and seriously think that the world is a random, purposeless accident and everyone disappears into the void without ever really being brought to justice.

>>11314494
>You can't go around acting like God the Judge and seriously think that the world is a random, purposeless accident and everyone disappears into the void without ever really being brought to justice.
You're wrong. People can go mad.

>>11314494
Oh, and coincidentally, Peter Hitchens became a theist by looking at a painting of The Last Judgement (Memling's, I think). So he actually became aware of where his sense of righteousness originates.

>>11314499
He tends to justify theism through theism justifying morality as well.

>>11314499
Wait Christopher Hitchens brother is a Christian? That's gotta be awkward. Chris didn't exactly hold back when explaining just how much contempt he holds towards the religious

>>11314494
I remember that one interview in some car ride where Hitch said that, unlike Dawkins, if he would convince every person in the world into atheism, but there would still be one theist left, he would just leave him be without doing anything.
Still weirds me out why he said this.

>>11314462
>Atheism is connected to fatherlessness and bad relationship with the father

I've known my father my entire life and have had no serious problems with him whatsoever.

I am living proof that your assertion is complete bullshit.

>>11314575
Do you have a son, tho?

>>11314595
What does that matter?

>>11314575
I never said it's the only way to be an atheist, but whatever. I assume you are a leftist as you see yourself as the collective itself.

>>11314607
>I assume you are a leftist as you see yourself as the collective itself

Well geez, jumping the gun there a bit much, aren't yah fella? I'm apolitical.

>>11314620
Leftism is physiological, though.
>http://www.psypost.org/2015/10/scientists-reduce-belief-in-god-by-shutting-down-the-brains-medial-frontal-cortex-38516
>https://youtu.be/P-DaSqVB1l4

>>11314628
>Leftism is physiological

>This is what conservatives actually believe

>>11314640
>https://theindependentwhig.com/haidt-passages/haidt/conservatives-understand-liberals-better-than-liberals-understand-conservatives/
Having their brain development impaired by chronic fatherlessness and other factors, leftism is born.

>>11314628
You do realize that there are plenty of people with left leaning political opinions who also believe in God, right?

The world isn't a neat little back and forth between black and white, there's a massive fucking grey area most of the time.

Take your stupid bullshit back to /pol/.

>>11314652
>You do realize that there are plenty of people with left leaning political opinions who also believe in God, right?
Yes, but this is more of a case of God doing miracles even with retards.

>>11314659
(You)

>>11314652
>The world isn't a neat little back and forth between black and white, there's a massive fucking grey area most of the time.
Grey exists only in a depressed mind, from I've seen. Vivid colors range from non-existence to full blossom. These extremes are the most real thing, and the inter-mediate is 'boring' and unsatisfactory until it is shaped into art. As Jonathan Haidt (liberal/leftist himself) pointed out, the state of leftism is closer to moral colorblindedness. They simply can not resonate with all moral principles humans have access to. Sociopaths are morally blind, for example. Sociopaths can believe in God, too. Though what God is to them I can't say.
Compared to God, we are all equal (=replaceable). Compared to sociopaths, you are privileged and better off, and compared to you, we are privileged and better off with full understanding of human morality.

>>11314676
Morality is a human construct, fuck off.

>>11314462
Atheism is just as bad as christianity. Never claimed otherwise. Christianity is connected to high divorce rates, pedophilia, race mixing and internationalism.
And why exactly do you think atheism is the death of civilization? Civilization makes people weak. The death of civilization is the only good thing about this judeo-christian nightmare we live in.

>civilization is the patriarchy
What the fuck are you smoking, nigger

>>11312946
I have to wonder if a religion which produces this much fear and self-loathing is truly a religion of love. If God is real I'm beginning to think that something like Hinduism is closer to the mark.

>>11314700
Morality is objective.

>>11312946
This is pure fantasy though. Its not real, you're just stressing yourself out over nothing.

>inb4 fedora

>>11314702
And thus the /pol/ack reveals his true colors. Fuck off you Nazi wannabe piece of shit.

>>11314716
No, I assure you, its purely subjective.

>>11314719
>This is pure fantasy though
No it isn't and you're doing Satans work by trying to convince a person who is already (rightfully) worried about entering the Kingdom of God to not worry about it. Living a righteous life worthy of God is something all must strive for and he's on the right path. Do not lead him astray just because your soul is already damned.

>>11314725
That's what you'd like to believe but it's false. Morality is objective.

*cancers*

>>11314731
Then why do so many people evolve there own little kinds of moralities where certain things that are generally considered amoral can be permissible and vice versa?

If you understood nature and nurture at all you'd know that morality is entirely dependent on the individual in question.

>>11314723
>*autistic screeching*
What a patchetic excuse for avoiding my excellent points.
I'm not a nazi. Nazis were on the right track on the natural order of society, but ultimately any civilization, no matter how well organized, is doomed from the beginning at least in the current state of the world.
Humans are a part of nature and always will be and no Yahweh or any other fake god from the middle east can change this fact.

>>11314745
Morality is God. There is a scale, you only ever move towards God or away from Him. Moving towards God improves your morality. Moving away from God makes you increasingly immoral.

>>11314749

>>11314761
>t. Moral relativist degenerate

>>11314748
>I'm not a nazi
>But the Nazis were right tho!

Fucking kill yourself, please.

>>11314705
Most Orthodox (and Catholic?) prayers consist of saying you're a piece of shit and admitting you are a useless sinner. Being impure is a central theme.
>"O God, cleanse me a sinner, for I have never done anything good in Thy sight"
>"Grant me not to fall asleep in the death of sin, but have compassion on me"
>"offer Thee at the present time from defiled lips; and forgive us our sins"

It doesn't surprise me many people end up with Christian self-hate, but Christianity works for some people too, and that's good for them I guess.

>>11314768
I also said they were wrong on another issue. Pic is you

>>11314727
>doing Satans work
stopped reading here. get a grip.

>>11314781
Satan is real my friend, and he's got you wrapped around his pinky finger.

>>11314787
Damn sounds terrifying.

>>11314792
You should read this

>>11314771
>Christian self-hate
>not Christian self-help
Piss off.

>>11314778

>>11314800
Its nice of you to recommend me something but I'm not gonna read that.

>>11314812
You should. You need to understand the truth of the spiritual world before it's too late. You still think the material is all there is, that is a grave mistake.

Holy fucking shit, the Semites have ruined human thought for all time I fucking swear.

>>11314806
Hating the human condition and not liking yourself isn't self-help.

>>11314818
You can't know anything about what lies beyond the material. Read as many books on the subject as you like but you'll only ever know as much as I do.

>>11314818
>dualism
lmao

>>11314800
Only retard idol worshiping, sister fucking Catholic scum believe in exorcism and demonic possessions.

>>11314829
>Only retard idol worshiping, sister fucking Catholic scum believe in exorcism and demonic possessions.
When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.

Jesus is Catholic confirmed.

>>11314841
those poor pigs :(

>>11312946
Very well written brother

>>11314826
this

>>11314820
Hating the human condition is a given. Have you seen our history? Have you seen the 20th century and what its atheism has wrought?
If people couldn't fall back to faith, they'd only be able to fall into pure madness.

>>11312946
what the fuck is evangelical orthodox christian? Anyways, stop larping and go to an actual orthodox church and be chrismated you dunce. You shouldn't have to worry about your soul if you pray and make a conscious decision to follow His commandments. I don't know how people develop this fear.

>>11314705
>>11314771
Self-hate seems like a common perversion more than anything else. Of course you are unworthy to commune with an infinite and omniscient God, that should be the base you start from. The point is that He makes you better, and allows you to commune with Him. How is that not a great sense of security?

>>11314705
I might loathe myself as a Christian but I sure as hell loathed myself a lot more as an atheist.

>>11315625
You shouldn't loathe yourself. Repentance isn't about hating yourself more, it's about becoming better in the grace of the Lord and finding joy in a humble life.

>>11315651
I hate myself less, but still.

I feel ashamed because your reply is so nice and I do agree with you anyway.

>>11314826
>You can't know anything about what lies beyond the material

How do you know that?

>there are people who believe in god in this very thread

>>11315656
You're welcome anon. It will get better if you pray and pray sincerely with good in your heart.

>>11315625
one day i realized my self-loathing was just an excuse, a fixation for me to be obsessed with instead of becoming a better person. i still fall into those types of slumps, but now i've become more aware of my feelings and how sometimes my mind tries to avoid painful truths about myself.

>>11315658
What reason would there be to believe otherwise? What experience or knowledge can be had with things that are not material?

>>11315697
Numbers don't exist in the material world.If all the universe were composed of a single atom the number two would still have meaning. Now you've made the definitive statement that we can't know anything supernatural so you ought to have a good reason to believe this because that's not an agnostic position where you can just rely on the other side to prove the opposite.

>>11315718
Bear in mind that my statement was a response to anon's direct reference to knowledge of the religious-spiritual realm. I probably shouldn't have spoken too broadly but it wasn't that drastic of an error considering the context.

But anyway let me just ask you what you think the point of this conversation will be. We'll end up bickering about definitions, about the possibility of knowledge, the foundation of mathematics, materialism, the viability of empiricism etc. and for what purpose?

>>11315806
Is the "religious-spiritual realm" somehow distinct from the supernatural? I don't think any bickering is necessary. Numbers are metaphysical and we can know them therefore you're statement that we can't know anything about the supernatural is incorrect.

>>11315828
Satan and numbers are very different concepts

>>11315835
I agree that Satan and numbers are different but they have the supernatural in common. We can know something about the supernatural.

>>11315841
Numbers are not necessarily supernatural though, certainly in the same way that Satan is. You say that as if it were indisputable. But this is why I asked what the point of our conversation would even be - there are too many points of debate here. Let's just leave it alone.

>>11312462
You once experienced whatever came before life, and so it should follow that you do not need to fear whatever comes after.

>>11315852
*certainly not in the same way

>>11315852
If the entire universe consisted of a single atom the number two would still have meaning. This is proof that there is something supernatural about them. Since we can know numbers it follows that we can know something about the supernatural. This is not to say that we can know everything about the supernatural, but merely something and this is enough to prove your position incorrect.

The difference between Satan and numbers are in particular but not in kind because they both share in the supernatural. I don't know what your point is because I'm not saying that because we know numbers we can also know Satan. I'm only saying that we can know something of the supernatural.

>>11315891
>If the entire universe consisted of a single atom the number two would still have meaning
how do you know this?

>>11315828

>>11315852


>Numbers are metaphysical
What?

>Numbers don't exist in the material world.
Again, what?

>If all the universe were composed of a single atom the number two would still have meaning.

With no subject around?

>>11315852
>too many points of debate here. Let's just leave it alone.

But you don't seem to seek debate, this indicates conviction. Did you have a first hand experience with the demonic, anon?

>>11315902
It's prima facie true because what else could the number two mean?

>>11315916
This is pure sophistry. Good lord.

>>11315920
And asking me to prove that the number two would still have meaning isn't. Good one.

>>11315926
Thank you so much for starting this conversation with me - look what great intellectual discussion we're enjoying!

>>11312362
Well Jesus also wept for Lazarus when he died, so who can really say.
If you're an atheist, you could just claim poorly thought out theology, but from a christian perspective, the tears Jesus had for death do mean something even if you don't understand it

>>11315908
>Did you have a first hand experience with the demonic, anon?
I was the guy arguing against the demonic

>>11315932
You took a radical position and I sought to correct you. Instead if simply admitting that you were wrong you decided to take the conversation to this place by looking for an out. You asked me to prove that numbers have meaning and then you had the nerve to accuse me of sophistry.

>>11314302
Evangelical as in spreading the word I'd assume

>>11315950
You attempted to use a hypothetical argument that had absolutely no foundation. You've proved nothing.

>>11315949
Lol, sorry. But, either way, the post goes out to that guy.

>>11315957
If numbers don't have any meaning then my argument wouldn't have any foundation. Feel free to make and argument at any time.

>>11315976
You took our current concept of the number 'two' and then assumed that the meaning of the concept would somehow transfer to a version of existence in which there were no physical manifestation of the number 'two.' >>11315908 makes the point also that there is no observing subject in this scenario either.

>>11315985

Well, no subject, no numbers. Even the hypothetical idea holds an a priori space and location etc. This is basic Kant stuff. But try to think of an ''universe composed of a single atom'' without a perspective. Being generates the base dyadic inference of ''2''.

There is also odd stuff like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language#Numerals_and_grammatical_number

I don't see how numbers are metaphysical, since their origination is precisely in the subjective distinction of inferred material objects.

>this entire thread
the state of this fucking board

>>11312915
>implying non-existence isn't way more comfy than this nightmare

>>11315985
The assumption is that numbers have meaning and this is prima facie true otherwise we couldn't do mathematics. If the universe consisted of a single atom, that single atom would be the subject. If we can observe the single atom we can conceive a universe where there would be two atoms. If numbers must be tied to some physical manifestation then infinity or any sufficiently large number would become nonsensical since there are a limited number of atoms in the universe.

>>11312372
>he thinks that human beings naturally see the world through the lens of materialism

>>11316014
but your assumption was that numbers have a metaphysical meaning though, which is a leap you can't make.
>infinity or any sufficiently large number would become nonsensical
not necessarily

>>11315985
>then assumed that the meaning of the concept would somehow transfer to a version of existence in which there were no physical manifestation of the number 'two.'
There isn't any physical manifestation of a googolplex either but we can still conceptualise it. Having a physical quantity is not a prerequisite for a number to exist

>>11316013
There are people on this board who unironically argue that the worst torture and torment imaginable would be better than nonexistence. How someone becomes that delusional is beyond me.

>>11316045
Metaphysics is the science of meaning so you can't have meaning without the metaphysical. If anything has meaning it is metaphysical.

>not necessarily

Good argument.

>>11314462
niggers have a higher rate of christianity than anyone else in america except maybe spics which btfos your autistic theory utterly but thanks for playing

>>11315656
shame was brought by the devil

>>11316055
how someone becomes as life-denying as you is beyond me desù

>>11316104
>reads the prologue of Thus Spoke Zarathustra once

>>11316055
Nonexistence is better than eternal punishment which is why I think many people gravitate towards atheism. They seek comfort.

>>11316059
>>11316050
>>11316014
>>11316003
Fuck off no one cares

>>11314745
>Then why do so many people evolve there own little kinds of moralities where certain things that are generally considered amoral can be permissible and vice versa?
Your logic:
>Truth/reality is subjective
>>No, it's objective
>Then why do individuals evolve their own little realities/truths?

>>11316059

Semantics is the science of meaning so you can't have meaning without the semantic. If anything has meaning it is semantic.

Do you see the problem here?

>>11316219
No I don't see what you're getting at. You can't have meaning without the supernatural.

>>11316055
This is just a misrepresentation. Nobody believes in God because they are scared of Hell. To be religious is a positive, life affirming experience.

>>11316237
What do you think meaning is?

>>11316339
Meaning is purpose or what a thing is for.

>>11316147
>>11316147
>>Truth/reality is subjective
...This is correct though. People with schizophrenia and other mental ailments have a different perception of reality, people with different religious views have a different idea of what is true and what isn't.

Hell, if there is 5 people in a room on a certain day if you ask them what happened on that day months later they will each give you a different answer, because people see things from different perspectives or they misremember. What is your point here? Because really you're just backing him up without realising it.

>>11314702
Shhhhh

« The worship due to our parents includes the worship given to all our kindred, since our kinsfolk are those who descend from the same parents, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. viii, 12). The worship given to our country includes homage to all our fellow-citizens and to all the friends of our country. Therefore piety extends chiefly to these. »

« Hence in natural things species seem to be arranged in degrees; as the mixed things are more perfect than the elements, and plants than minerals, and animals than plants, and men than other animals; and in each of these one species is more perfect than others. Therefore, as the divine wisdom is the cause of the distinction of things for the sake of the perfection of the universe, so it is the cause of inequality. For the universe would not be perfect if only one grade of goodness were found in things. »

>>11314702
But anon, if there were no civilization, you'd be a slave to some negro warlord right now.

>>11312336
Unironically good riddance. Allah has punished this murtad vermin.

>>11316345
No man, that is teleology. Meaning is a signifier, like the number 1 for an example, signifies a single entity. So what you are trying to say is that the number one has a teleology that is metaphysical in nature, and that there is no teleology without the metaphysical?

So, going by the formula you presented. Anything that has a purpose, is de facto metaphysical/supernatural? I really don't see any justification here. And it looks like the epitome of circular reasoning.

I can ''prove'' anything with it.

>>11310794
What warnings? That if you aren't strong enough to create your own values, you will be miserable if you refuse to adopt another's?

>>11316453
Yes a number is a signifier but signifiers have a purpose. They enable us to conceive and communicate ideas. Teleology is a branch of metaphysics so you're right in saying that there is no teleology without metaphysics. Without the supernatural there can be no meaning or purpose and there will be an is-ought gap.

>>11316501
Alright, just for clarity. What is the ''supernatural'' in this case? And why does the teleology of everything depend on it.

Atoms from chemical bonds without any ontology.

>is-ought gap
Only if you presume that it must be otherwise from an arbitrary normative moral stance.

I'd argue that the perception is meaning-loaded, by the fact that you perceive.

>>11315856
"I" did not. My life began at my birth, and I can only recall as far back as the second or third year of my life. I have no memories of something my conscious self never actually experienced.

>>11316349
Well said. These are clearly the words of a european man with a european soul despite his abrahamic faith.

>>11316554
Teleology is the study of purpose and purpose itself must be supernatural because nothing in the material universe can tell us ultimately why things do what they do.

>>11316630
>>11316630

> nothing in the material universe can tell us ultimately why things do what they do.

*Ultimately* here, just begs the question of being and non-being. Clearly we can derive why things do what they do via naturalistic means.

But this was originally about numbers. So:

1 is a signifier of a singular entity.
A signifier has a purpose only in the subject, otherwise nothing can be signified.
We experience objects in the world, and form abstract divisions as per our condition allows us to. 1 requires both subject and object, as to be a signifier, i.e. to have a purpose. I can not say that it depends on geist alone, but ultimately the question of being is still open.

>>11312362
It's natural to fear death. Some of us have drives that override that. It's p. simple chemical / biological evolution.

That being said I often think religious people fear death like many others because they fear that if there is no afterlife then they have wasted their life. It's more about having not truly done what they wanted to do and conforming to societies standards instead of their own.

>>11314514
If you knew much about hitch, you wouldn't call him chris

>>11313279
>...yeah, cancer does that.
No, chemotherapy does that. Cancer doesn't kill people nearly as fast as chemo does, and all immediate negative symptoms after a cancer diagnosis are a direct result of chemo.

>>11316630
>material universe
>he actually believes in this fairytale
kek.

>>11317534
>That being said I often think religious people fear death like many others because they fear that if there is no afterlife then they have wasted their life
There are those of us who have transcended and realize that if there is no afterlife then there is no such thing as "wasting" your life since there is no practical difference whether you return to the void tomorrow and 50 years from now. Your fate is the same either way and what does it matter whether 20 years or 70 years worth of memories and experiences are wasted?

No. True wisdom is understanding that living a Christian life is living the best possible life whether or not God exists.

>>11316065
They can't even speak and you claim they worship Logos.

>>11314702
Meek is a word only in English. Search the other translations and you'll find patience instead. The hell you speak of is American hegemony.

>>11312946
>I want to be with Christ so badly and yet I'm scared I am not worthy

That's perfect contrition man, and that's all God wants of us. Just keep advancing in holiness and you're set.

>>11314702
>Pagan Japan
I dunno if you've looked at Japan lately but they're not doing so great. The disease that is currently taking hold in the west originated there. Hikikomoris were present in Japan a decade before NEETs starting being a serious problem in the west. They were the canary in the coalmine for rampant unchecked materialism and consumerism.

>>11312298
SUCH POISE AND DOGNITY

>>11312362
>wow bro, like *prepares bong* why are these fucking idiots not *pushes wire dab into bong* just like dying cause they believe in an after-*coughs* l-life...!?

>haha yeah, like, does he have a family or something *steals 20 dollars from mom to pay for weed*?

>>11319584
Man. I wish I had some weed now.
I still believe in Jesus Christ though.

>>11312570
Atheist here.

Trust me, non.existence is NOT comfortable at all.

>>11319691
as if you would know...

>>11319800
Atheists don't exist. Didn't you know this?

>>11310794
HAHAHA NICE BAIT

>>11316612

>>11320010
Well most atheists aren't actually atheists, they just dislike the cultural caricatures of God. If one claims to be an atheist, yet they belief in absolute, unchanging value(s) like the laws of physics or nature, then they are not actually an atheist.

>>11321518
how are the laws of physics a belief in God

>>11313795
Both are incomprehensible to the human mind and are both uncomfortable concepts to deal with when deeply pondered.

>>11321525
Do you even Isaac Newton?

>>11321557
i just dont get what you're saying, God is an actual conscious entity right? like a mind?

>>11321566
>God is an actual conscious entity right? like a mind?

Like an actual person, man.

>>11321525
>how are the laws of physics a belief in God
That was explained in my post.

>>11312504
words of wisdom

>>11321572
>>11321574
why wont you guys explain yourselves clearly, christ this board is useless

>>11321586
>can't read
kek. This is the wrong board for you.

>>11321525
>how are the laws of physics a belief in God

How aren’t they. Book IV of Emile.

>>11321587
>>11321589
God is depicted as being an entity with a mind, he is aware and sometimes described as omnipotent.

The laws of physics imply absolutely nothing similar to that, at the very most you can argue they imply an abstract sort of God, but not the personalized one of Christanity.

I feel like you dont even have a real argument and are just memeing

>>11321604
I mentioned a book. How the fuck am I memeing? This is t some sardonic, sarcastic retarded bullshit. I’m dead serious.

How are Laws, things that do not change, like the ordinances given to us by God On stone tablets not evidence of God if they logically result in things that have symbolic meaning and metaphorical ideas resonant in God itself. Like how the sun is to Plato’s cave. Or the lunar cycle in general. These sorts of symmetries exist as a testament to God: that he set our celestial bodies in motion and laws of physics alight with life as a testament to his creation.

Why can’t you think this way on your own yet, what is wrong with you

>>11321604
From what I get it, the Trinity is the same God. The Father being the source of creation, the Spirit that connects everything there is and the Son through who we mortals attain oneness with God.

>>11321618
Christian refractory stupidity
>>11321617
Genuine Islamic genius

>>11321617
>How are Laws, things that do not change
Have you ever heard of Quantum Mechanics?
No, but seriously. You philosophy types claim to so far reaching understanding, but too often you just don't know jack and make things more confusing that they ought to be.

>>11321617
unchanging aspects of reality, even things that imply symbolic meaning(which doesnt necessarily follow but just given that it does) do not entail a God like the one in the Abrahamic religions

there is literally no connection dude

>>11321626
Unfortunately, all you can do it nitpick at shit in my post.

All I have to say is: proof of God is abundant. Look around you, you are blind. Like one trapped in Plato’s cave.

>>11310794
what's the story here?

>>11321633
It literally does, otherwise you would not have existential meaning in your life. If there is no one assisting us in our lives then why do people succeed when they try? Why are our mentalities and philosophies reflected in the world around us? Why is there success in faith and loss in doubt?

I win every thread. Undoubtedly. And you know who I am at this point. No doubt, again. Only faith. Only because of faith do I win.

>>11321633
>do not entail a God like the one in the Abrahamic religions
refer to
>>11321518
>Well most atheists aren't actually atheists, they just dislike the cultural caricatures of God
then
>If one claims to be an atheist, yet they belief in absolute, unchanging value(s) like the laws of physics or nature, then they are not actually an atheist.

>>11321604
>but not the personalized one of Christanity.
You seriously don't even read the posts you are replying to. Shame.
>>11321648

>>11321643
you dont need faith to succeed, are you just denying that successful atheist people exist?

meaning does not imply god, it could just be some attribute of reality, or it could be an illusion.

>>11315936
when he wept for lazarus i thought it was for the love people had for him and for the pain they suffered from his passing

but when he learned john the baptist died, i think it expressly says that he removed himself from the people to go into the wilderness to grieve

>>11321626
>Have you ever heard of Quantum Mechanics?
Yes, but the majority of the scientific orthodoxy hasn't so they are still spinning there tires with nonsensical materialist assumptions.

>>11321668
If you are implying successful as actually enjoying life, yes I am denying that.

If you are implying successful as having more money, I don’t deny that, although that point is meaningless

>>11321682
A happy person doesn't go out of his way to tell other people how unhappy they are.

>>11312336
>>11312362
>>11312946
Death is sweet and merciful. What is hell is to live forever. Death gives us meaning.

>>11321692
Edgy.

>>11321636
Yo, I believe in God man. I was just messin'.
>>11321678
And what are you spinning, homeboy? How many poor do you feed and how many orphans do you care for?

>>11321699
Not really. What I'm trying to say is life is very valuable because it is not infinite. I know they say it all the time but it is true.

>>11321692
>death worship

>>11321739
The message behind your post might not be edgy but your original post with that picture definitely was.

>>11321739
>Not really. What I'm trying to say is life is very valuable because it is not infinite.
..and then it's over and it's not so valuable. What are the dead Finnish tribes to you?