/lit/ - Literature

>>11270424
forgot the linke
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/04/incel-movement-literary-classics-behind-misogyny

First they came to video games
Then they came to cinema
Now they're after literature
And there's nothing you can do about it

>>11270424
These maggots are attacking the classics for YEARS. They just keep trying and keep failing. I don't care to much, they are already losing ground each day.

>>11270424
>Incels aren’t monsters of cruel internet culture – they are the product of the American literary canon that has long glorified male sexual frustration
'feminism' is killing western culture, i'm barely even joking here

>look mom I posted it again

>incels
>reading

No
They are the product of internet culture
And they don't read

Congratulations! You have once again succeeded in posting a thinly-veiled 'literature' thread with the intention to gossip like a schoolgirl!

>>11270424
>implying incels read more than blogposts
The vidya power fantasies make sense at least but it's a lot simpler and more complex than any art, which itself just emulates the female hating culture of its time. The only worthwhile thing from the article is that the term came from a fucking lesbian; together with the whole red pill crap being popularised by two trannies, is there ANYTHING crazies came up with?

>>11270452
>'feminism' is killing western culture
Wrong. The banking cartels are killing western culture by running every western nation into the ground for their own ends. Feminism is just a cover to keep us all distracted and bitching about surface issues. Even you are getting caught up in this us vs. them nonsense. As long as we're talking about anything but the money we're done for.

>>11270458
This, they don't read, they game and shitpost on 4chan/leddit

>>11270469
agreed

>>11270452
how much of a cuck do you have to be to side with existing institutions and power structures that smash rockets in people every day

>>11270469
Can you not think both are killing Western culture to varying degrees? Even you admit feminism is being deployed by corporate and political elites as a weapon against the masses to prevent them from recognizing the true threat. So why not reject both?

Or it could be, yknow, the complete and total social isolation.

>>11270424
Incels can't even read the catalog, apparently.

>>11270508
western culture never existed in the first place. its a post hoc term for things that only existed circumstantially because of economic and political conditions. the only reason you care in the first place is because you believe your self-perceived deficiencies to be the result of some inability to identify with a greater mythic body. but this body never existed, and most people in the western world care little about the culture you project onto them.

>>11270508
because he's fundamentally a marxist so he can only feel like he's really playing the game when he's talking about who has the dollery doos

>>11270424
Our literary classics that no one reads are being used as an impetus for mass murder by people who also don't read the classics. Oh no.

Also at the bottom of the article there's a link to an article about how Ray Bradbury was also supposedly racist (maybe because 451's protagonist had a German name and recently they used a black man to portray that character in a film adaptation?). Makes one wonder how long this kind of hysteria can go on.

>>11270504
Cuck? Those rockets aren't smashing into me boyo

>>11270526
youre the impotent cuck husband contently playing with his nintendo switch while the State (my wifes boyfriend tyrone) fucks the oriental feminine Other into submission. sometimes he lets you watch as he slides into her butthole. she says she hates it but always asks for more.

>>11270534
holy... i want more..

>>11270534
One of the dumber analogies i've ever read, so congrats on that I guess

>>11270521
> western culture never existed in the first place

Air doesn't exist, everyone is simply having some physical processes in lungs.

Do we have any indication that incels even read the canon? I'd be willing to bet that the men who've read those problematic classics are less, not more likely to commit mass murder.

>>11270540
are you familiar even with the most basic critique of history i think aristotle mentioned it once

>>11270542
Hardly anyone young reads at all. This is just another blatant attack on white men and their work that just uses incels as an excuse to do so.

>>11270508
>So why not reject both?
Because that is a symptom of the problem. You want to deal with it? Skip over every symptom and talk obsessively about the root cause. Anything less marks lack of discernment on your part. These symptoms are designed to distract you. Don't make it easy for them.

>>11270461
wasn't me if it was done before, just thought you guys would be interested in the
>Books Guardian Selects
article, to know what's going on in the world of literature and books and what are the latest trends

>>11270558
sorry im only interested in literature to seem smart to strangers on the internet and fill up my bookcase so that i can post pics of it. i dont want to connect it to any wider part of the human experience

>>11270519
except hermits of old didn't go into wench killing rampages

>>11270520
link to the other thred?

>>11270519
Most incels are gaymers and in the "incel" community. Not quite social but not really pure isolation either.

>>11270561
Hermits of old generally chose to be hermits

>>11270586
And weren't entitled dweebs but hard men dedicated to solitude and peace, not impotent rage.

>>11270563
Incels actually can't read the catalog!

>>11270565
Online communication doesn't really help.

>>11270520
>>11270563
>>11270595

Wait, I'm onto something… If we give a porta-shield that shows 4chan catalog page to every student, they'll become invisible to school shooters!

>>11270606
online communication constantly reminds its participant of how deficient it is compared to physical interaction

>>11270606
It can help not to go totally crazy as solitary confinement would. Besides, assuming one isn't in a bubble, some critical feedback can help a person to avoid being swallowed up in their own butthole. It's basically shitty food-like stuff that keeps you from starving completely.

>>11270614
Which can serve as a blueprint for improvement.

>>11270424
There is no "incel movement"

>>11270436
Don’t forget universities

>>11270623
was it ever proven that the Canadian killer archive of a Facebook account with exactly 1 message was even real? i mean it's not like facebook accounts are hard to fake

Incels briefly occupying the interest of mainstream journalists and academics was a good litmus test of whether the supposedly revolutionary '68 episteme actually exists, i.e., whether several generations of "postmodern thinking" and non-stop deconstruction of all traditional norms, hierarchies, and "power-knowledge" actually made human beings fundamentally more compassionate, understanding, or adept at identifying systemic oppression and subaltern voices at the everyday level.

What happens when a completely monstrous black person tortures and murders some white child or shoots a cop in the face in cold blood? The institutionalized postmodernists rush in to remind everyone that institutions are structurally and systemically oppressive, and that this unfortunate individual incident shouldn't blind us to the structural factors that gradually and systemically caused the young black person to lash out.

We shouldn't simply follow our gut and say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Murder and violence are never justified, and no matter how oppressed you are, you aren't entitled to cruelty, hatred, spite, or resentment!" We should constantly remind ourselves against all our instincts that we're occupying the uphill, superior position, the easier position to hold, and we're shouting down at someone who is barely surviving, using this tragedy to justify keeping the structures of oppression in place because "it's fundamentally the individual's responsibility and the individual's guilt." We're supposed to resist the urge to shoot from the hip, and use abstruse Marxian analysis to figure out that resentment-fueled violence really isn't the perpetrator's "fault," but the fault of complex social structures and language-embedded injustices.

But then when a white guy starts expressing some ennui and sense of alienation, by doing anything less than outright grovelling and cringing and apologizing for feeling this ennui in the first place, at a time when being a "default" young-white-working-class-male means being the most atomized and pointless and taken-for-granted drone in an already atomized and pointless society, every single one of these ultra-subtle critical theorists says the same shit: "LOL what are you a fucking virgin? Man up! Buck up! You don't deserve any sympathy! You aren't guaranteed anything! It's YOUR responsibility to EARN the things you want from life! Just because you're miserable, doesn't mean you have the right to lash out, ever!"

It's a one-to-one analogous case, in the abstract. But there's no analogous consideration of structural or systemic factors, no interest in "seeing the perpetrator as himself a victim," no interest in subtly examining how social isolation almost always leads to short-sighted lashing-out that just leads to worse isolation in a vicious cycle, nothing.

DECADES of postmodern wanking about sympathy for the downtrodden hasn't managed to make that sympathy reflexive. It was all one big role-playing game.

>>11270424
> depict an aspect of the human condition that is male sexual frustration
> sexually frustrated males relate
> "wow does this form of relatable media encourage relatability and solidarity? how awful"

Literary classics aren't the cause of sexual frustration, but social awkwardness in social situations, hormonal changes during adolescence and societal peer pressures that encourage young adults to believe they NEED to be in a relationship to achieve true happiness are the factors to really focus on.

I don't think there's anything really wrong with literary classics - if people can relate, empathise and find solidarity in literature, that can only be somewhat healing - but what needs to change is this emphasis on the importance of relationships. Many relationships fail because people rush into them, expecting it to be instant sexual Nirvana when in actuality after two weeks the sexual appreciation tends to dry up and you're stuck with a person who no longer feels the need to try their best to impress and all ugly characteristics come to show (and this applies to both women and men - the mask comes off and your true colours show and that's nowhere near as appealing as those first few weeks).

You should either really just sow your oats and fuck around on Tinder, Grinder, whatever the fuck, potentially wait for that person who you don't care how flawed they are, or become a completely celibate monk and punish yourself when you feel tempted to fuck your palm because you like seeing pictures of Krystal's gushy pussy. Honestly everything is either society's fault or your own, don't blame Holden Caulfield because people found him annoying yet relatable.

>>11270731
You conflate a myriad of different positions into one stawman, mate. Also you do realize that what the article does is exactly the opposite of "lol, man up, virgin" right?

Getting deeper into the subject, social isolation, while obviously a contributor is unlikely to be a relevant factor. Fatties, immigrants, non whites, retards, homos and basically every "social group" experiences less isolation than white males. Some Afghan father lost in a country he doesn't understand isn't going on a spree to kill bitches. Some whale abandoned by society is going to grab another snack instead of getting into a car. Isolation simply doesn't affect mass murderers disproportionally to make the connection, things like misogyny and male entitlement do.

>>11270768
You did point out of culture creates an atmosphere that focuses too much on relationship, so how are classics that part of the culture not a relevant factor then? Then only reason why classics specifically are bad to focus on, is because incels and most other entitled fucks are not reading books.

>>11270731
The problem with sympathy of the kind that differs (in the derridean sense) responsibility to institutions and other power structure, and constructs the individual as nothing more than material, is that ultimately you do have to find some point at which you assign agency to someone. Otherwise you could not ask anyone to change anything about the situation at hand, we would all be slaves to our own programming and there would be noone to cry for help to.

Interestingly enough, the analysis of the powerstructure of society is used to free the allegedly oppressed of all responsibility for their action, which means that if they buy into this narrative they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again, since they have deprived themselves of the belief in the connection of each persons personal connection to the logos and have become, essentially, nihilists. At the same time it binds the agency of the elites to a pathological ideological framework. They have to think about the world in a very specific way, a way which puts them in the position of functioning as the compensatory mechanism for those whom they recognize as not having the same human transcendental power to overcome the present as them.

victim-perpetrator narratives are useful in situations where material conditions prevent people from being able to solve certain problems, or where structural imbalances have been isolated and there really isn't any reason for allowing them to stick around other than wanting to make life harder for a certain group, but it must not be used as an excuse for telling individuals that they are structurally incapable of independent critical thought and self-transformation, since that is just about the same as denying their humanity.

>>11270469

100% this. Realized it with the 2016 election. The 2010s in general were the years were imaginary political wars were set for people on the internet to fight on. Whoever played MMORPGs in the early 2000s can recognize sinister similarities between those videogames and current political discourse. There is a fixation on identity (i.e. character creation) where you first choose a faction (left/PC v. alt-rightish stuff) then choose a class (e.g. gender fluid, transexual ecc. if leftwing, fascist, nazi, ecc. if rightwing) and then go on twitter to fight with memes, youtube videos and other similar bullshit.
The results are evident: people are not aware of the current general geopolitical situation, which is the drive for internal politics in the country, and start instead from inside, focusing on micro-problems, unreal problems or unsolvable problems (e.g. the whole "unconscious bias" thing nobody knows how to address beside calling each other racists or cucks).
Meanwhile, the cold war goes on, elites are resembling more and more a perverse kind of aristocracy while keeping the life of the masses on a minimum level of acceptability so that they don't complain, creating lottery systems through which they give the illusion that anyone can become part of the aristocracy in any moment.
But people would rather spend their time complaining about what jokes are racist or not, or whether pewdiepie said "nigger" on a videogame stream. And let us be clear: it's not that all these problems are not worth discussing in themselves. It is only that they should not have priority over other things, such as geopolitical and economical problems.

>>11270788
>ultimately you do have to find some point at which you assign agency to someone.
>if they buy into this narrative they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again

Totally agreed, I think a balance of both is necessary. In an ideal world, the discursive turn would have been a universal acquisition, something similar to Western societies going from 10% to 99% literacy in the span of a few generations. It should have given people a whole new "way" of seeing oppression and responsibility that balances out the older traditions of bildung and self-determination without replacing them.

Unfortunately you get the victim-perpetrator narrative as you said, but it isn't even consistently applied. They aren't even hypertrophied victim-fetishizers, they are just ordinary chauvinists in the oldest possible sense, but with a pathological paternalism for their downtrodden "lessers" (or an equally pathological enjoyment of being the perpetual downtrodden).

I'm frankly just amazed at how un-Foucaultian Foucaultians are in their basic thinking. I am a selective and limited reader of Foucault and after reading one or two books I essentially "got" Foucault, to the point that I can trivially see the power-knowledge thing and I obviously agree that micro-aggressions are real things and part of larger structures etc. I'm critical of the pomo left, but I obviously and trivially saw that their core epistemological position is essentially correct. Only after that did I find out that NONE OF THEM ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND OR INHABIT THAT POSITION. They just skim a few surface elements off of Foucault, learn a bit of jargon, and get inducted into the victim cult.

That's what annoys me. These fucking pompous windbags build careers on preaching that they understand Foucault and they don't even understand Foucault worth a damn. They institutionalized his jargon and some of the trappings and rituals associated with him, because they wanted the PRESTIGE of looking compassionate and activistic. But they never actually learned the fundamental compassion and activism that constituted the core of those rituals in the first place.

Fucking horrible era.

>>11270785
Holy shit are you a real person?

>>11270807
What class/race combo are you?

>>11270807
>muh elites
It's even more useless and general. And creates a fake narrative. There is no unified agenda of the super rich to really oppose, not a certain action that would do anything sans a general strike maybe, but good fucking luck with that. Smaller things not only can have instant effects but the success can also empower people to try something bigger.

>>11270825

I always go for a SL120 faith/dex build. I know it's not the best, but I like it

The incel problem is intrinsically linked to emergent technologies and attendant late capitalist alientaion. This article is specious as fuck, needless to say.

>>11270504
oh right sorry i forgot that stupidly judging literary classics within the framework of 'feminism' was not only absolute but ever so revolutionary
this is borderline fascist

>>11270534
this is literally proof of how stupid this whole thing is

>>11270424
But if course! Whatever we can do to push the agenda. Fucking ameritards.

>>11270469
well i like to think of it more as 'neoliberal feminism is a symptom of, y'know, neoliberalism' but ur conspiracy theory is cool too i guess

>>11270834

I do not think there is a unified agenda, but you should agree with me that people who have wealth and power would want to keep both wealth and power. If there is a commonality of desire, then there is a commonality of objectives. I do not believe there "organizations" of elite, but it is plausible to imagine rich and powerful people to act in a similar manner in order to preserve their wealth and power. At the moment, the most effective tool to maintain power is to manipulate information so that people 1. don't think you are powerful 2. focus their attention on something that it's not the difference between you and them (e.g. PC politics).
What happens is that attention is diverted from one dominant group (e.g. rich people) to a strawman dominant group (e.g. white people) in order to create both distraction and divisiveness. I do not believe this has been "planned" by some person or group - the tendency was already there. But what would a privileged person do to protect itself when someone points out he's privileged? He would say "I am not that priviliged, actually, someone else is like me." which is what is happening today by extending the mechanics of power and privilege from rich people to a vague and diverse group which is white people.
That said, addressing the problem really is a matter of lucidity. To criticize the system you have to understand who is in power and, at the moment, it is very difficult to understand who truly is in power. The idea that has beet put forward in the last decade, namely that a racial group (white people) is somehow unified and acting coherent not even because of their manifest intentions, but because of some common unconscious bias, as if every white person was a sleeping agent for an invisible nation, looks way more than a conspiracy theory than just claiming that there are hidden elites who are in power. And it mostly creates chaos, which is very useful for people in power not to be find out.

>>11270424
First they came for the video games, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a gamer.
Then they came for the tv showa and movies, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a screen junkie

Then they came for classic literature—and there was no one left to speak.

>>11270854
the guardian is a uk newspaper

>>11270879
>people who have wealth and power would want to keep both wealth and power
That's given, just the way different people go on about it, makes any action against "muh elite" unrealistic, and at best not very effective.

>but it is plausible to imagine rich and powerful people to act in a similar manner in order to preserve their wealth and power.
Yet they don't. Different rich people employ different strategies and sometimes the harm isn't even that obvious, and perhaps even questionable.

>1. don't think you are powerful 2. focus their attention on something that it's not the difference between you and them (e.g. PC politics).
At least the way it seems for me, there appears to be more effort spent of justifying the power. "I worked harder, so I deserve it" and as you mentioned in the previous post, selling the "you can be rich too!" meme. Focusing attention on something else is the oldest trick in the book, and PC politics is simply the least harmful form of it.

Besides, outside of hardcore liberals with their black CEO's obsession, people introduced to ultimately leftist ideas, can move further to "why do all black CEO's come from wealthy environments". A lot of feminist critic does address the capitalist factor. It's not the most efficient approach by all means, kinda like putting everyone who ever wore a hoodie into the line-up to find the rapist, who wore one, but it's movement into the right direction. Besides, it's simpler to get results that way. Of course this also brings the danger that people could get too satisfying with little gains, but uhh, that's plenty of speculation for one post.

>by extending the mechanics of power and privilege from rich people to a vague and diverse group which is white people.
It doesn't happen often enough to be a relevant factor. Unless it's some underage idiot, the person tends to be aware of different levels of privilege. And sure, maybe some underaged idiot on twitter thinks there is a white conspiracy going on, and that idiot doesn't deserve any more attention than another underaged idiot who replaced whites with jews in their fantasy.

>To criticize the system you have to understand who is in power
Nope, it doesn't matter. If every powerful person would die today, tomorrow they would be replaced by someone similar enough. Changing the actors doesn't affect the play too much.

>at the moment, it is very difficult to understand who truly is in power
Because power is pretty fleeting actually, and pointless focus on. Now the system, having clear rules, rules people can technically affect, is a much better target.

>>11270807
>we live in a society

>>11271055
we do

>>11271055
Madman.

>>11270444
says increasingly nervous white man for the twentieth time this month

>>11271094
not him, but it's not as if as if you ain't white bruh

>I’m not saying that we need to divest entirely from the mid-century authors like Pinter, Bellow, Updike and Roth who have so shaped American literary culture (though I’d personally be cool with letting Hemingway, Ellis and Wallace drift into obscurity). But I do think it’s time to be done with this particular story, which treats white male rage as a ceaseless source of interest.

White authors breed terrorists, we need to stop reading them! Except (((Pinter))), (((Bellow))) and (((Roth))), keep reading those

>>11271120

>>11271120
>American literary culture

>>11270469
No, it's feminism
if women never entered the workplace and never were allowed to vote we would be perfectly fine right now

the english liberal grad is so full of shit, surely an intellectual conservative scholar must have published an article in response by now

or at least a youtube video kek

>>11271317
>intellectual conservative

>>11271317
Why would it warrant a response by anyone other than your standard feminists rekt youtuber?

>Obvious clickbait article
>Not posting a pastebin or some other kind of backup

C'mon now anon, even you guys must be better than this

>>11271334
who cares? it's just words on the internet

>>11270424
Incel read manga.

>>11271336
You can't really complain about sensationalism in the media while actively contributing to it's publication.

They want clicks. If you give them clicks, for any reason, you're giving them what they want. See what I mean?

>>11270813
it's Foucaldien

did any of you incels actually read the column? she's saying that society places too much importance on the feelings of white, hetero males when society has never done the same for any other demographic. the classical literary works used throughout grade school conditioned us to believe white bois are entitled to sex. consequently if they don't get what they want, they resort to force by rape or terrorism by mass shootings. she further demonstrates the conditioning when the political punditry point to incel mass shootings as evidence that society has failed them. it is exclusively white bois doing mass shootings, not black or brown men who have historically not had the same social status as white

>>11271388
Whites are actually underrepresented in mass shootings. You hear about white men doing it because A. they are very good at it and B. because the kikes need the world to hate white men

>>11271364
if it contributes to making them more of a joke, that's fine for me, i have no interest in saving meme journalism

>>11271388
Yes multiple people have addressed that between this and the other thread.
Its actually embarassing that any of that makes sense to you.
Especially the >it is exclusively white bois doing mass shootings
When the most famous of these shooters is Elliot fucking Rodgers the mixed race kid.

>>11271388
>hetero males when society has never done the same for any other demographic
what societies? what demographics? why does everybody just copy/paste US racial dynamics into the whole world as if they were retards who have only read the headlines for the last week but never opened a history book?

>>11271413
What anon says can be translated to any Western country and incels aren't really a thing outside of these.

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

My favorite thing to shitpost on r9k

>>11271435
white people only exist in america, your translation makes no sense unless you are an amerimutt yourself

>>11271450
Can you rephrase whatever you tried to say in a way that at least pretends to make some sense?

>>11271464
most """white""" countries don't have a population of liberated slaves that never really got integrated into their population, so it makes no sense to translate american racial dynamics to those countries and it makes no sense to speak of white people in those circumstances because it signifies nothing

>>11271413
are you confused? the literary classics the american author mentions are commonly found in western grade school curriculum and incel mass shooters are a western phenomena

>>11271409
>Newsweek said, "White men have committed more mass shootings than any other group."

>Newsweek based its claim on data from Mother Jones, which defines a public mass shooting as an incident in which the motive appeared to be indiscriminate killing and a lone gunman took the lives of at least three people. Under this definition, Mother Jones found that non-Hispanic white men have been responsible for 54 percent of mass shootings since August 1982.

>Another tally, with a longer timeline and a different definition of mass shooting, found non-Hispanic white men make up 63 percent of these attacks. Under both definitions and datasets, white men have committed more mass shootings than any other ethnicity group.

>Newsweek's claim is literally accurate. But it's worth noting the imprecision of this data, and the percentage of mass shootings by white men is lower than their share of the male population, according to Mother Jones.

>We rate this Mostly True.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/06/newsweek/are-white-males-responsible-more-mass-shootings-an/


what statistics are you looking at? most mass shooters are white males and that percentage only keeps going up by the day

>>11271527
nobody shoots anybody outside of america

>>11271543
>most people are white in a majority white country
makes you think really

>>11271527
>incel mass shooters are a western phenomena

>>11271543
Do you know what exclusively means you illiterate faggot?

>>11271543
And proportionally?

>>11271503
Ah, fair enough. Then again, the key isn't "whiteness" but entitlement (which in Murica is just further amplified by their privilege), so I take anon meant "white bois" as a shortcut for entitled babies. It'd be simpler to talk about male entitlement for sure.

>>11271552
In the sense of creating a community over self pity, and then committing terrorism in the name of not getting laid, it is.

>>11271503
You do know pretty much every country in America went through the same hoops and none of them have the kind of racial tension the US has, right? I mean, I'm a brazilian and while the tension did escalate lately, anyone with a passing knowledge of tumblr culture can see they are just translating, not even adapting, american arguments towards race.

>>11271656
I'm brazilian too and it's quite depressing. Our country is fucked beyond belief and our youth is discussing the "This is America" video.

O que vc anda lendo, aliás?

>>11271656
in the future, everyone will have to deal with American identity politics everytday, simply because they have a tremendous evolutionary advantage being the most dopamine-efficient form of political discourse.

>>11270424
The author got the causal link backwards

>>11270424
We had this thread yesterday.

>>11271668
>"This is America" video.
thinkpiece-core

How many incel mass killings have there actually been? Keep in mind that the idea that Alex Minassian was an incel is based on a fake facebook post.

>>11270984

I agree with most of what you say, and thank you for your post, it is really helpful.
Especially your point on focusing on the system rather than groups of people. Though I do not agree that the capitalist factor is sufficiently addressed by current PC culture. And even if some branches of it may be addressing the problem, the mainstream discussion is still focused on disqualifying groups/individuals rather than systems. What I am seeing in current political discourse is mostly an attack on groups or a war between groups which, as you said, is detrimental if one wants to criticize the system.
And I believe you truly make an interesting point when you say that power is actually pointless to focus on. This would actually disrupt much of the current gibberish going on both on the media and on the internet, about groups of people - whites, jews - having control and would be much unifying if people just came to know what was wrong about the system who eventually puts dislikable people in power in the first place.

>>11271656
american truly ruin everything, even anti-racism

>>11271743
>Though I do not agree that the capitalist factor is sufficiently addressed by current PC culture
that's because the capitalist factor is the current PC culture

>>11271656
>>11271668
It's quite pathetic to see these leftist idiots, who would once have been the bastions of anti-americanism just parrot tumblrinas and other stupid people. They're nobodies.

>>11271403
>da joos

>>11271743
notice how only privileged white dudes ever harbour juvenile fantasies about LARPing as guy debord/Ted K./anonymous Guy Fawkes and smashing le system? this is because actual marginalised folks, queers, people of color, trans people, actually have more pressing concerns, like basic human inclusion within the system you deride, and you know, not getting fucking murdered by people who look like you

>>11271785
>this is because actual marginalised folks, queers, people of color, trans people, actually have more pressing concerns
also because they are not wealthy enough to be retarded and are have reactionary ideology as a consequence of not being able to live like a retard

>>11271607
Niggers are entitled, see i can do it too.

>male entitlement
ok, so men should be taught that they should expect to go loveless and miserable throughout life?
seems like a smart idea to make people less liable to go fucking bonkers and gun down crowds because their lives are so hopeless

>>11271785

What are you talking about? In America most violent crimes are black on black, white people are less likely to fucking murder you than any other group

>>11271890
i mean the obvious option is legalizing polygamy, forcibly drafting incels and sending them to shoot guns somewhere else

>>11271743
>I do not agree that the capitalist factor is sufficiently addressed by current PC culture.
Oh by no means, it isn't. Didn't mean to say it is. A huge amount of the movement is still stuck in the "we just want to play the game like whites can" state of mind and limit their contribution to buying "fuck patriarchy" shirts made in China. Just found a bit unfair to ignore the people who do think outside of the box. It's generally a positive direction that people question inequality instead of accepting it as part of life, and some diving in deeper are bound to focus on systematic problems. Besides, small improvements to their situation, can help people to think more. CHANGING TEH SYSTEM is the last thing on your mind when you're a black dude encountering a cop in Murica.

>if people just came to know what was wrong about the system who eventually puts dislikable people in power in the first place.
But that would require a bit more thinking, besides a system just isn't a very attractive target compared to a person. Someone like the orange idiot just begs to be hated and gives a face to problems, it's a lot more attractive to think that getting rid of a person would deal with the issues the person represents. And so far I don't recall of any movement or any idea that made focusing on the system half as appealing. Hell, even outside of politics, most of our popular stories have a clear antagonist to defeat, changing that thinking is ... well, tricky at the very least.

>>11271785
Revolutions are often orchestrated by the upper classes who just want more power for themselves but have to do it in a way that gathers them popular support. Besides, as you noted, marginalised people have more on their mind, which can make it harder to focus on what really matters. Even beyond being a part of any of that group, some average Joe poorfag is too exhausted after work to come up with a solution or even thinking about it, while some college kid with too much free time can.

In the end, dealing with the system that causes the problem would have a better result than addressing every issue one by one, but is a less likely outcome.

>>11271901
but what about this one half chinese, half white guy who wrote mean things about girls and shot some people? that surely changes everything

>>11271908
>arming men, organizing them AND denying them reward
damn, what's next?

>>11270424
It's still funny to me that neo-victorians have moved on from trying to condemn Lolita to condemning any unauthorized man who praises it.

>>11271910
yes, all revolutions have always been rich kids playing social engineering games, nothing to do with the will of the people or meaningless memes like that

>>11271922
i mean it's the traditional solution, you send then to some other country and you make them someone else's problem and maybe gain some land in the process if you are lucky

>>11271908
Mansonism, K-Insurgency, total revolution liberated from the last vestiges of Christian socialist eschatology. Total war against the journalist class, GAMERGATE 3.0 obliterate consensus reality. let's do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-P2aXAOBW4

>>11271890
Why not teach people that they aren'd owed romantic affection of others? Or that there is more to life than sticking your wiener into a hole until little copies of you come out? More literature focusing on goals beyond muh romantic love would be a decent beginning. Or even baby steps like the power of friendship.

>>11271929
>nothing to do with the will of the people
When did it actually matter? People generally want better conditions but are rarely willing to take big actions to achieve them. Bored or at least idealistic rich kids who provided clear ideas and/or leadership turned the will of the people into actions of the people more often than not.

>>11271910
Cut your damn apologetics. What do you think the black panthers were about? Yeah cos poor blacks are too stupid to think about muh government. What a shitty defence of identity politics. It needs to be wiped out completely if the left is to make any real progress. It's a neoliberal front.

>>11271970
>Why not teach people that they aren'd owed romantic affection of others?
nobody teaches this
furthermore losers invent theories of why it's not their fault to easier deal with their failures, like how all the poor queer niggers invent some evil oppressive jew overlord to blame their woes on, this is not a process you can just stop like that without actually making them strong enough to not really have those woes to begin with

>>11271970
>Why not teach people that they aren'd owed romantic affection of others?
i mean it's called pointing and laughing or bulling, yes, we should get it back as soon as possible

>>11271980
white boy revolutionary LARPers like you can't see ''identity politics'' is a matter of survival for queers, PoC and marginalised folks. you will never know what it feels like to be marginalised and finally having you humanity recognised after years and years of activism, only to get little shits like you to tell you nothing of it matters because muh class reductionism. seriously have you ever spoken to a queer person or a person of color before?

>>11272000
hahahahyahahahahahahahha
This is /lit/ now.
Let's just burn down the Western canon so whores can whore, nigs can nig and nihilistic philistines can reduce art to slam poetry and not feel ashamed, or under scrutiny.

>>11271987
no you dumbasses. the debate about entitlement is being conducted by morons and idiots. let me explain.
the problems with incels is that they're "entitled" to sex, apparently. they believe this BCOS they are doing what society tells them to. be nice guy, earn money etc. shit that USED to work
NOW bitches are saying owe they think they're "entitled" to sex. yes because that was the social covenant until bitches decided to fuck chads instead of nice guys!
I call this post "moving the fucking goalposts"

>>11272000

>is a matter of survival for queers, PoC and marginalised folks.

Shit man, didn't realize they were fighting for surival. Hit me up with some stats about how many of those are killed every day.

>>11272000
bullshit. just fuck behind closed doors like gays always used to. I don't throw my fetishes in your face. you're a bunch of whiners that never had it so good.

>>11271980
And what did they actually achieve outside of giving people someone to root for? MLK actually got results. Not huge ones by any means but still much more than the panthers.

Besides, how do you propose to get more people into action either way?

>>11271987
A huge amount of stories are about a guy doing things to unlock affection of some chick and getting her as a price like some fucking video game. I bet majority of posters won't even realise how outlandish the possibility of it being not how it works is, despite even fucking Cervantes making fun of the idea.

>>11271988
Humiliation is a huge part of motivation for crazies though. Bullying causes more victims and creates a shitty society.

>>11272026
And if someone caught you, your social circle and career, and hence means to support yourself, are over, in a best case scenario. You anti-fag faggots don't realise how crappy it is to be a fag or any other minority and would've offed yourself living like them for a week.

>>11271970
>Why not teach people that they aren'd owed romantic affection of others?

it's dumb to conflate the idea that you're owed romantic affection from someone specifically which is ridiculous and that humans in general deserve a fulfilling sexual relationship which is not.

>>11272033
yeah they let MLK live to represent pseud black liberation and shot malcom x, because he represented an actual threat to the system. but by all means keep "getting shit done", keep getting rappers rich while poor blacks rot in jail

>>11271970
You're not going to "convince" people to not want affection from others, that's just a human fucking trait.

>>11272039
yeah and when I fuck 18 year old girls I don't face social consequences? it's called fucking morality snowflake and we all have to live with it

>>11272039
I'm a fag and its actually pretty alright.

>>11272062
t. masc presenting white gay cisdude

>>11272064
you deserve to fucking kys not because you're gay, but because you're anti-intellectual, self-centred scum that is ruining the fucking world. YOU are the reason for trump and I'm glad you can't buy a fucking wedding cake

>>11272044
>that humans in general deserve a fulfilling sexual relationship
Why? Why with others? Hell, even if we assume it being the case, how do you propose it to realistically to work without robbing another person of their rights? Would you want to give Elliot or that new incel a blowjob, I mean, he deserves a fulfilling sexual relationship, no? Better get them lips locked tight.

>>11272048
We're talking about romantic affection though. And priests aren't doing too bad without it.

>>11272055
You're going to get different looks at worst, no one is going to fire you or blacklist you from the industry or attack you for fucking 18 year old girls.

>>11272062
After fags before you made life pretty alright in the West. Or are you posting from some homophobic shithole?

>>11272079
The priests that actually are celibate have rich social lives because they're fucking priests.

>>11272079
are you fucking kidding me? have you heard of #metoo? have you ever visited a university?

>>11271970
remove the word "owed". what about right? do all people have the right to romantic affection? not from specific others, just the general right

>>11272085
And other people who are celibate could use all the time saved from pursuing pussy/dick to accomplish shit and have decent social lives too. That Elliot guy was fucking rich, if he weren't a complete brainlet, he could've accomplish a lot shit and get respect from his peers.

>>11272088
Have you ever heard about consent?

>>11272094
Right in a sense "no one should be able to stop people from receiving romantic affection". Kinda like you have the right to suck a dick, if the owner of the dick is cool with it, sure, go for it.

>>11272104
sorry "rape culture" doesn't exist, why don't you go preach in the fucking congo where your paranoia and false statistics might be worth something

>>11272088
social justice isn't even about politics, it's about empathy and basic human decency. The standard SJ lexicon is a great collective work it sprang from hundreds of years of critical theory and marginalised folks trying to understand their oppressions. I myself am glad the culture is shifting towards a place of empathy, it is obvious the populist anti-sj sentiment comes from a place of entitlement and privileged rage at a more inclusive culture.

>>11272104
what if everybody in the world denies you the chance to suck their dick? kind of makes the "right" seem hollow, doesn't it? sex is fundamentally a question of scarcity (there isn't an infinite amount of fucking) so therefore it's question of economic distribution

>>11272122
it's the diametric opposite. the "great work" you refer to is certain anglo-saxons periodically deciding to extend the benefits of their collective in-group to outsiders

>>11272104
But they can't because they're depressed and emotionally crippled. I don't think you understand how vital social interaction is for human beings.

>>11270436
>feminazis took our vidya
>also muh black panther
You don't have to be a feminist to appreciate this meme. Basedboys are trying to make us care about their onions-toys being taken away.
And there's no single reason why we should. Nobody can realistically 'come for' literature. What they'll do next is take another toy from you. Maybe it's porn or anime or comic books, I don't know. And you'll react by whining everywhere on the internet and killing yourselves more often, and shooting up more schools, because that's how you are.

>>11272122
if this is bait you're a genius. if this is real, don't you dare use the term "critical theory" for your sophistry. you are the desecration of US intellectual culture, or what's left of it

Sexual and romantic affection, along with platonic affection and familial affection, form the baseline from which confidence and self esteem spring. They validate you as a person. If you lack them, then that will have a catastrophic affect on your mental wellbeing.

>>11272138
This, shit like gamergate was entirely inconsequential and achieve almost nothing

>>11270436
>first they came to vidya
And then what changed? I mean unless you play EA cancer or masturbate to indieshit vidya’s more or less better than it was circa 2013.

>>11272138
it's not 'feminazis' but a secular theocracy of managerial shitlibs. read paul gottfried.

>>11271313
Correction: We would still be getting fucked in the ass royally by the upper class elite.

>>11272113
Call it "culture that has complications with context and treatment of rape victims" if that sounds better for you.

>>11272123
>kind of makes the "right" seem hollow, doesn't it?
Well, it's a right that would be impossible to implement without massively affecting the freedom and wellbeing of other people. Somewhat similar to right to a job, if you have no valuable skills, it'd be insane to force people to hire you.

>therefore it's question of economic distribution
Distributing humans has a crappy historical record.

>>11272135
That's when the right to health care should jump in but no therapy can be 100% successful so we're still stuck here.

>how vital social interaction is for human beings.
How can we provide social interactions to human beings who reject social interaction unless it's on their terms in a way that's harmful to the other side?

>>11272170
>implying I'm not upper class elite

>>11272139
you are just scared and angry because culture is becoming more inclusive and you are no longer the center of the universe. maybe it's time for some serious self reflection. it doesn't matter how many books by Adorno have you read if you haven't read a single book by a woman of color.

>>11272162
Vidya got a lot worse in terms of monetisation actually. Once upon a time you bought a complete game for a complete price, these days you buy the right to play a part of the game and the right to buy more parts of it, when you play it in a way that's intended. Instead losers bitch about female characters.

>>11272171
I prefer the term "culture that reprograms young women to think they have been raped to advance the misandrist agenda of aging career feminists"

>>11272178
black women will never reach the level of an adorno by burning the canon like nazis. slave morality par excellence

>>11272171
>insane to force people to hire you
but it's not insane to demand the means to a living. jesus christ, what timeline are we living in when social justice partisans think that the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor?

>>11272181
A term that doesn't turn the reality on its head would be a bit more helpful. Try something a la "culture of disagreement with my right to rape"

>>11272138
forgot about the filters
based, onions -> so.y

>>11272163
I don't care what you call them. Whoever is killing Hollywood and vidya right now is doing the world a favor.

>>11270424
This will be an interesting issue going forward. It's not a surprise to me that this Guardian piece was written directly after Roth's death -- implicit in this discussion is a fight over his legacy. Consider Zadie Smith's little eulogy here, which also serves as a defense of his misogyny: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/philip-roth-a-writer-all-the-way-down

There's no question that the past hundred and fifty years or so has an overabundance of sexually frustrated male characters, and their glorification in art is perhaps out of step with their actual number or presence in society. I think there's increased attention on how these characters have dominated the literary scene due to the Me Too movement, and Roth's death is another opportunity to examine the phenomena as a whole through one author's works.

Smith would likely argue that it's simply portraying (some) men how they truly are, and that it's art whether you like it or not. Spampinato seems to be arguing that this art encourages violence against women. The former is being too soft on flawed work, while the latter is just ridiculous. Still, the stakes are high enough that people -- even those with ostensibly pretty similar opinions -- can get into heated arguments about it because of what the supposed stakes might be.

I can already read in my head some reactionary drivel on Smith's side saying that Spampinato is calling for censorship (like here, for instance: >>11270436), and for folks on Spampinato's side saying that to ignore the problem is to be complicit in it.

It'll be a decade or two before this goes away.

>>11271408
you are saving them when you give them clicks, you can make a joke out of them from archive links

>>11272179
>Once upon a time you bought a complete game for a complete price
what are expansion packs
although those were generally better, DLC is obnoxious just with how anal it is
I'd rather pay for a hotel room with all inclusive instead of having to pay for the bed, the phone, the minibar, the breakfast, etc

>>11272195
In this scenario we can easy distribute money to help people in need. Can't do it with people unless you enslave them.

>>11272213
They were actual expansions of the complete game more often than not, not little bits to complete it. (Witcher is a rare example, don't even go there)

>>11271543
>lower than their share of the male population

>>11272217
and where is the money being distributed from

>>11272217
depends on the game, but big addons still exist

>>11272224
From willing participants of the system who voted for it. So I guess, technically you could try to propose a right to enslavement but ... eh, it's not going to be a good sell.

>>11272225
Sure but generally you're still getting less for more these days. Which isn't even that shocking given that a lot of 3d vidya is pretty expensive to produce but at the same time, it seems like something that would get more attention than whatever gaymer gates bitch about.

My take: feminism is great and needed, but male frustation isn't here because women are doing better, it's because men are doing worse. Lots of dumbass male behavior that would have been moderately successful in the past (being a drunk retard who shows up to his union job moderately sober and then gives his wife enough money to feed the kids while doing whatever stupid shit comes into his head the rest of the time, etc.) doesn't work anymore. The demands guys have today aren't that great but dumb culture, bad parenting, financial stress, etc. have made them impossible for many guys. Many also are highly prideful and respond with rage to this instead of just trying their best and being normal

>>11272238
what if the willing participants refuse to consent to their money being given to certain members of the poor? should they be forced to do so or will the poor have to go without? whose rights win?

LOL, the media that lit loves so much is trying to MeToo away all the old books

>>11272242
the dumb culture is in great part a product of the invasive presence of a bien pensant managerialist media class who always knows what's best for everyone, ie. mandatory narcissism promiscuity and mindless consumption of pre approved 'woke' masscult.

>>11272244
Whoever they vote for in our system. Given Murica, it's not even a what if scenario.

>>11272251
not the point. you've ascribed two fundamentally opposed sets of rights to the same group of individuals. one right has to win. either an individual has absolute rights of ownership or an individual has an absolute right of entitlement but he can't have both

>>11272178
Alright this is probably bait at this point, well done for getting all these fishies.
On the slight chance you're serious however, the simple fact you think the origin of the author makes the work deserving of value shows how far gone your view is.

>>11272204
you're such a faggot

>>11272315
it's true, evaluating a work by the author's origin is endorsing a formal caste system

>>11272295
Democracy simply doesn't work like that. We give up tons of rights for the benefit to live in society. One of these is the right to a complete reward for our efforts, since a part of it is needed to keep the whole thing rolling. But usually we do not give up the right to our bodily autonomy, since the downsides would overshadow the positives for one.

Like, let's be real, would you rather pay 50% taxes or to be forced to suck incel dick everyday for 4h?

>>11272326
Yeah fine if you want to get technical about it having a white baby while being a well-off family iis endorsing a caste system because you're contributing to the rich white class. Are you saying rich white people shouldn't have kids.
Everything is technically an endorsment for something else, but there are scale dependent effects which you are choosing to completely disregard to fit a specific model.

>make it illegal for hundreds of years to educate women and minorities
>kill and jail them when they're caught reading
>classic literature written by incel white men for incel white men
>get mad and commit mass shootings when women and minorities point out their systemic and cultural degradation throughout history

just admit you are closet wahabbists. you were never western people and there are too many minorities for you to make it "great" again.

>>11272353
I'm coming to kill you right now faggot, what are you gonna do?

>>11272351
>are you saying rich white people shouldn't have kids
I can bet he is. Stop wasting your time on this.

>>11272353
Tbqh it's great that /pol/aks and incels are so in denial. If they could form an alliance with radical muslims, they might get enough numbers to affects some change in the future.

>>11272000
>is a matter of survival for queers, PoC and marginalised folks
i can get the the black thing, but queers are not a folk, they are just an action

>>11272338
For one thing we do not live in a democracy, the voter has a very small amount of control over what happens, and in the long term basically no control at all, because society as a whole moves in one direction. The Left do not even like real democracy in the first place because they hate the stupidity of the proles. Democracy is in fact a retarded system, but we dont even have it, so this entire thing is a charade.

The people who have any sort of real power are journalists, State department, academia, billionaires, and activists. In the long term they decide what happens. The last president to have real executive power was FDR, Nixon and McCarthy showed what happens when you go against journalists, activists, etc.

>>11272019
so why are poor people entitled to better living standards? i mean i can understand not wanting to starve, but homeless people in america are fat as fuck, but your own theory nobody is entitled to anything, which i agree, but not sure how can you come up with this kind of shit from the left when all you guys talk about is entitlement all day long every day

>>11272351
no i'm saying deciding which works to canonize based on the author's background vs the actual quality of the work itself is saying that the circumstances of one's birth is more important than what one achieves. like, the transgender lesbian eskimo's book is more important than shakespeare because it's written by a transgender lesbian eskimo. that's what i mean by endorsing a caste system

>>11272353
minorities, as in black people, rape women at a rate about 10 times higher than whites do, so your argument is pretty gay

>>11272033
so you want to tell them to get fucked an get used to be losers without bulling them? i mean you guys can't have everything, i agree that people should be told at their face when they are losers and they can decide what to do with that information, but you can't have it both ways and want them to be aware of it without telling them clearly what's going on

>>11272338
so then you're saying that ownership is the fundamental right, which means that conversely no individual has a right no romantic affection

>>11272033
>MLK actually got results
what results? the black community has been going down the drain for decades, yes, they aren't segregated anymore, they are still worse in any other objective measure than they were before. it was a victory for progressives, not for actual black people and their lives

>>11272386
Ah I see, I was arguing that it was dumb to state that having read Adorno is worthless without reading a blach author's work. Endorsing a caste system is a retarded reason to read a book.

this whole debate is so pointless and boring, americans need to be nuked

>>11272357
Lol amgry

>>11272039
>living like them
again, there's no "them", it's not a people, it's an action, you have been brainwashed to believe people are defined by where they put their dirty penises

>>11272401
just like every black country that has descended into literal anarchy is better with its 'independence' than it was when whites ruled it and it was actually functional

these people have no actual relation to reality, their minds are infused with dogma and hysteria

>>11271785
>notice how only privileged white dudes ever harbour juvenile fantasies about LARPing as guy debord/Ted K./anonymous Guy Fawkes and smashing le system?
what did xie mean by this?

>>11272404
exactly. a black author's work isn't better because they're black

>>11272404
it's about going AGAINST the existing caste system and the sense of white male entitlement that has been feeding this incel crisis in the first place. Real progress won't stop at tokens, we'll have to slaughter some real holy cows. if your canon contributes to marginalisation if it contributes to violence against women and the murder of living queers, then your canon can go fuck itself. period.

>>11271785
yeah it is whites who are doing all the murdering, fuckin lmao

>>11271785
>privileged white dudes coined the term "woke"
ladies and gentleman, the memory hole

>>11272248
Nobody is making you take part of tho. Just pick a reliable news source like reading the Economist and then read actual books (normal ones for an educated person like classics and then books acknowledged by the contemporary intellectual mainstream, dont get sucked into insane nonsense only dysfunctional people and lunatics read like Evola or some weird guy whose ebook by some retard blogger about how to be an alpha millionaire ) and all of a sudden you have intellectual poise instead of being part of the deranged rabble. In other words just do what your high school teacher would have told you to do (or what he would have told the honors kids to do at least). My opinion

>>11272425
a truly marginalized group isn't in a position to make demands. if you want to make it a zero-sum game fine but the marginal are going to lose

>>11272425
>this incel crisis
how would you compare the incel crisis, in real terms, to the 'black male rape crisis'?

Does some mystical property of the former overwhelm the numerical superiority of the latter? Is it in fact just not really permitted to even think about the latter

>>11272419
That's what I was implying. I actually think the whole "issue" between university SJWs and reactionaries is loosely a consequence of strong myopia when it comes to social phenomena. They get so hell bent on analysing tiny fragments of interaction like micro-aggressions and endorsement of structures and representations that completely lose sight of the large scale phenomena at work which are still the same as they always were.

>>11272425
This is embarassing, you assume in the first place that it's impossible for a canon to change over time as more and more authors come from different backgrounds without being railroaded into an artificial canon. Typical millenial attitude: things have to change, and NOW!

>>11272382
>journalists, State department, academia, billionaires, and activists
Neither of these decide how you vote in the end, at best they can nudge you in the direction. Hence the complains about Russian trolls or Emerdata are so misguided. If idiots let memes affect how they vote, the problem lies here, not in outside actors using them.

>>11272392
Most of them are perfectly aware that they are losers, they lack the information and will to change, and often get wrong signals from society. Besides, you don't actually need bullying to get the idea across.

>>11272394
Ownership of our bodies, not some private property meme. Besides again, the right to something doesn't always mean to get something granted. I have the right to become a billionaire, not the right to demand billions.

>>11272401
>they are still worse in any other objective measure than they were before
Got any data on it?

>>11272452
>without being railroaded into an artificial canon
All canon is artificial.

>>11272445
The 'issue' between SJWs and reactionaries is that the former, and all of polite society in the entire West, attribute black poverty, crime, and intelligence to white racism, whereas the latter, quite reasonably, suggest that they are just born that way.

There is no way to reconcile this issue. And it's perfect. Blacks will of course never start behaving like whites, so the Left can always point to their situation and say 'you evil whites keep oppressing your fellow black man'. It is an eternal stick to hit whites with, justifying black on white violence, forced integration, affirmative action, and wealth reallocation.

>>11272455
they control the policies that the two candidates end up having. And they control a lot of the decisions that get made without any democratic input at all.

>>11272456
nice semantics, I'm talking about timescale here, you can't generate a literary culture overnight

>>11272456
quality isn't, though. either works are good or they aren't. it's real fucking hard to read something like the odyssey and claim it's just not as good as song of solomon without being deliberately contrarian

>>11272455
>Got any data on it?

>>11272455
>>11272465

>>11272464
>without being deliberately contrarian
who decides what relevance is? you know what's relevant? the fact that people are actually getting marginalised and killed out there.

>>11272457
>all of polite society in the entire West attribute black poverty, crime, and intelligence to white racism
I seriously doubt that, you're just hearing a loud minority. Most people don't care that much to be activits

>>11272465
>Growth of imprisonment rate was caused by MLK
My sides

>>11272469
>this war narrative
Some people are getting killed, sure. Do you honestly believe you could attribute a significant contribution to the western canon?

>>11272455
>>11272465
>>11272468
this one is not a "bad" graph, it's more of a zero improvement graph, i guess all the progressive "representation" didn't really help at all the bulk of black people

>>11272469
blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks. and if its women youre concerned about guess what, once again, blacks kill way more of them than whites do

your miniscule and hysteric brain is of course incapable of even processing these two facts

>>11272475
>caused
not caused retarded, just displaying that progressive de-segregation solved nothing for the bulk of black people and they still haven't made an improvement in any sense unless you count "representation" as an improvement which is irrelevant for the bulk of black people and only benefits a small percentage of black people that progressives parade around to show how progressive they are

>>11272469
>aesthetic judgments are given and contained in the immediate experience of art. they coincide with it; they are not arrived at afterwards through reflection or thought. aesthetic judgements are also involuntary; you can no more choose whether or not to like a work of art than you can choose to have sugar taste sweet or lemons sour (whether or not aesthetic judgements are honestly reported is another matter)

>>11270508
>Can you not think both are killing Western culture to varying degrees?
You appear to have trouble distinguishing the tradesman from his tools.

>>11272481
these toxic atittudes are ingrained in every aspect of our culture, muh cannon and white male literary culture was given a pass for far too long. but guess what, you can't separate the very real attitudes perpetuated from their effects in reality. I'm just asking you to be self critical, you are not used to being self critical. remember the discomfort you feel is not even one percent of what marginalised folks go through every single instant of their existence.

>>11272462
To a point but again, the public can affect the policies by not voting for one of the designated candidates, even in Murica. While the system is aimed to limit the chance of everyone who tries to break in, there are no barriers than can't be overcome with simple fucking voting.

>>11272463
Better get started then.

>>11272464
>either works are good or they aren't
Which was usually decided by some old while male and his friends. Let's see what happens when the decision makers get more diverse.

>>11272465
>incarnation
The whole prison system was likely affected by racist as a reaction to civil rights but it's still silly to blame on MLK that people stopped to demand rights afterwards.
>marriages
Who fucking cares. Probably affects all ethnicities.
>unemployment
Lacks the pre civil rights numbers, and information about the state of employment. Are you seriously suggesting that blacks have fewer opportunities now?
Besides, where are the great black panther improvements?

>>11272488
My point is that the graphs you posted can be applied to the whole of western society, not just black people. Crime skyrocketed from the 50s to the 90s. Arguing that MLK didn't solve anything because blacks suffered the same problmes that everyone else suffered is dumb.

>>11272507
>by not voting for one of the two candidates
If something has literally never happened i think we can just discount its relevance

>>11272498
>remember the discomfort you feel is not even one percent of what marginalised folks go through every single instant of their existence.
can't read this stuff without it sounding like comedy

>>11272498
White men are not going on a rampage killing people. White men commit less murder than any other male demographic except east asians. Your entire premise is just incredibly retarded

>>11272494
ok, but a queer person or a person of color will experience life in a totally different way than you do. what you see as art they see as a history of degradation, enslavement and humilliation of people like them by people like you. and it's doubly involuntary because they can't choose not to live under white supremacy

>>11272524
uh yeah they can, they can just fuck off and leave our countries. They dont want to because white countries are better than anywhere else

>>11272507
>The whole prison system was likely affected by racist as a reaction to civil rights
that's just meaningless, civil rights either did something good that can be measured or it didn't.

>but it's still silly to blame on MLK that people stopped to demand rights afterwards.
i'm blaming nobody and "demand rights" is meaningless, civil rights movement was a political project with some aims, it didn't achieve any of those aims

>>11272511
so what's the point of civil rights and all the mysticism around it if it achieved nothing? getting to portray progressives as heroes even though their project went nowhere and didn't bring prosperity for the groups it was supposed to help?

>>11272488
It caused nothing because Murica found new ways to subjugate blacks, and progressives and blacks didn't organise enough to deal with that shit. Lacking someone like MLK didn't help.

>>11272512
Blame it on the voters, who did decide to go with the establishment. Obviously they aren't helped by a system and education that nudges them that way but no one ever forced them to vote how they did.

>>11272507
>Besides, where are the great black panther improvements?
there are none, but at least it had a coherent notion of a black people that could have gone somewhere instead of becoming a group condemned to be the progressive's pet for eternity without any positive light to be ever seen in the future

>>11272535
im not interested in blaming it on anybody, that is child tier emotional reasoning. Im pointing out how things actually are

>>11272498

>>11272534
I'm not saying they achieved nothing, that's you. I'm saying that arguing that MLK worsened the situation because of a couple of statistics that apply to the whole of western societies (not just american, not just whites/Europeans) is dumb.

>>11272535
>It caused nothing because Murica found new ways to subjugate blacks, and progressives and blacks didn't organise enough to deal with that shit. Lacking someone like MLK didn't help.
that's retarded, every time a progressive project fail it's somebody else's fault, at some point you guys will have to take responsibility for your constant failures

>>11272122
>empathy and basic human decency.
Define both of these terms.

>>11272553
*America

>>11272553
what did they achieve exactly that's more meaningful for your average black person than for the average whitey progressive that gets to feel like a hero without ever having done anything that required any effort?

>>11272122
>the culture is shifting towards a place of empathy,
imagine being this retarded. The culture is shifting towards Nazi germany levels of hostility between whites and non-whites

>>11272534
But it did, the aim was civil rights. Then the other side found more subtle ways to attack blacks without taking their civil rights per se and encountered minimal resistance.

>>11272539
And where did that go? Exactly nowhere without even nominal benefits.

>>11272554
The progressives fault was stopping, not the fight for civil rights.

>>11272566
The culture and your alt-right forum don't have much in common, bruv.

The column makes a very good and plausible argument. I have been listening to a lot of 30s and 40s music and even in that, the lyrics are about a man forcing himself onto a woman that rejects his advancements. If we are raised and educated at an early age with this type of material, it is reasonable to believe white men have gain a sense of entitlement to a higher social and economic status above everyone else.

Consider how literary works by non-hetero, white males have been historically banned from public schools or even made illegal to distribute.

>>11272563
So not being officially seen as a second class citizens and being legally be able to treated like one is not meaningful at all, not even a tiny bit? Come on. Yeah, the effects turned out minimal but it's ridiculous to suggest there was none.

>>11272581
This falls the moment you consider that school shootings weren't that common before, while the culture was much more "patriarchal"
The article is the same kind of reductionist lazy bs that you can read from a /pol/tard, trying to pin a complex social phenomenon to a single cause with a very weak link.

>>11272580
>The culture and your alt-right forum don't have much in common, bruv.
Right that's why whites are increasingly voting as an ethnic bloc, because of my altright forum delusions.

>>11272524
if there's no possibility of shared experience or higher synthesis than multicultural society is impossible. if multicultural society is impossible, then it's segregation or gas chambers. let me be clear that i do not support that outcome nor do i believe in it, but the final solution timeline is direct result of your line of argument

>>11272524
also white supremacy is the best thing that ever happened to fags tbqh

>>11272597
>So not being officially seen as a second class citizens and being legally be able to treated like one is not meaningful at all
it's meaningful if the bulk of black people are truly progressive and liberal, which i doubt they are and i doubt they will be in the future, otherwise it would have been more meaningful for them to achieve real independence, not becoming progressive pets and being crammed into city shitholes to rot

>>11272600
>a few more retards are making dumb choices during economically chaotic times
Fucking shocking. Just not really relevant for the big picture since alt-right kids are an irrelevant minority.

>>11272617
Until someone gives them a better alternative or they start a third party (that would still need to appeal to non blacks), the choice is between someone who doesn't mind them too much and someone who actively despises them. A shitty place to be in but the first choice at least promises potential for improvement.

>>11272656
>Until someone gives them a better alternative
>or they start a third party (that would still need to appeal to non blacks)
holy lord how much ideology is packed in there i can't even

>>11272656
the big picture will be collapse and race war, your infinitesimally small understanding of history prevents you from seeing this

>>11272599
>while the culture was much more "patriarchal"
By what definition? If anything, the incel movement is moving the ideals of a patriarchal society even further right than it was say, 20 years ago. If you browse /pol/ or any other right wing forum for a day, you would see that they are essentially Muslims in denial. You didn't see mass shootings back then because it was illegal for minorities to get uppity. White men are lashing out at a western civilization that values democracy over white male supremacy with acts of terrorism.

>>11272669
>and race war
hopefully not, peaceful self-segregation would be way better if the progressives stop trying to force things that don't work

>>11272675
>You didn't see mass shootings back then because it was illegal for minorities to get uppity. White men are lashing out at a western civilization that values democracy over white male supremacy with acts of terrorism.
name 1 mass shooting that was remotely about this

>>11272675
you deserve a knife in stomach, but your argument doesnt even make sense, again- white men are not overrepresented in acts of terrorism, or any type of violence.

The premise of your argument is literally factually incorrect. once more, knife, stomach.

>>11272675
Are you honestly implying that with all the things we have had in the past century society is more patriarchal today? I feel like I'm getting trolled.
How is society more patriarchal today than, say, in the 50s?

>>11272667
Also called realism.

>>11272669
A race war between who? Majority of whites couldn't care less about alt-right LARPing and majority of alt-righters hate whites who don't support their shit even more than minorities.

>>11272079
>priests are doing well
that is a very broad term you dumbass

>>11272697
>realism
if you believe history started 100 years ago and and only comprises america, i guess

>>11272697
the majority of whites will start caring when there are no white-majority places left for them. Leftists are only leftists because they can live in all white neighborhoods and send their kids to all white schools. The facade will come crashing down when this stops being a possibility

>>11272711
How the things were done in the past doesn't matter to much now. Life in the West is way too comfortable to risk it, even for minorities, things aren't nearly as bad as they were before for the majority. I'd rather get on creating that 3rd party than putting all your hopes on something more radical, mate.

>>11272734
>Life in the West is way too comfortable to risk it
that kind of short term thinking won't extend comfiness into the future though, nothing is forever, sometimes it sounds like you leftists are the most fervent believers of western civilization

>>11271942
Other times you just get another 4th Crusade.

>I read this retarded article
>I read this retarded thread

Do it Donald. Drop the bomb.

>>11270424

Haven't read the thread.

No, because A) People don't read
B) Most people who have the books haven't read them
C)Most people who have read them didn't read into them, they just wanted to be able to say they read them.
D)Whatever kind of incel litmonster would read classics and make for himself a classical misogyny would either be so underground nobody would ever hear of his insane glory, or he would very prominently do something everyone would know about, and we are yet to year about "Mass-shooting rape spree: Penguin Classics Edition"

>>11272732
Like whites in cities that have more diversity actually voting for Trump? Maybe whites in cities that have more diversity voting for LePen? Oh right, people who actually encounter scary brown people don't have issues with them. Well, Brexit wasn't as much about racism but the dogwhistles were obvious too, and oh look, whites who actually lived next to minorities voted against it. Going by available data, race war will need to wait for a while it seems, keep the pepes ready for action tho.

>>11272741
>leftists are the most fervent believers of western civilization
Because they made the changes that made it worth anything. Western civilisation without leftist ideas would be just another feudal shithole.

Outside of some comical dystopia with our technocrat overlords making everyone jobless without providing them means for survival, any change is below unlikely. And if our tech overlords got the tech to replace most jobs, they will probably have the tech to wipe out any potential resistance. If there isn't a revolution in the next decade, we're either going be completely fucked, or live even comfier.

>>11271552
>me good u bad
Eurextrachromosomes

>>11272785
>Mass-shooting rape spree: Penguin Classics Edition
My keks.

>>11272791
White western urbanites benefit so much from globalization that they're barely residents fo their own nations at this point. They're more than happy to sacrifice some of the lower classes in order to maintain their lifestyle.

>>11272791
the level of black people literally correlates with the level of racism. You have 100% not lived in a black neighborhood if you think being around them makes you less racist.

Leftists cities are completely segregated and the token minorities are selected for their good behavior. It's true that some Leftists are so incredibly brainwashed that their antiracism overrides their observations of reality, but these are not going to be the majority

Blacks themselves are well aware of this, the blacks who talk about race war, which is actually a large number of them, know that the dangerous whites are the ones in the South, ie, the ones who live around black people and are armed.

you have such a naive view of history, as though genocide werent a constant feature of different races being in close proximity with each other

>>11272791
>Oh right, people who actually encounter scary brown people don't have issues with them
Not true at all.

>>11272811
I should also say that if you understood how segregated American cities are, you would know that these people only experience diversity in the most superficial of ways.

>>11272791
>let me just call everyone who improved the west a “leftist” and group Jefferson with flabby modern hedonism

>>11272811
>They're more than happy to sacrifice some of the lower classes in order to maintain their lifestyle.
Yet a good part of Trumpists and Brexit voters were actually pretty wealthy. Forgot the stats about France but it's likely they paint the same image.

How is a race war supposed to happen when majority of whites are against it and alt-righters are against the majority of whites?

>>11272827
>the level of black people literally correlates with the level of racism.
So why are even the whites in places with more blacks (and muslims for Europe) so much more likely against racist politicians?

>You have 100% not lived in a black neighborhood
Well, Europoor here, there are barely any blacks to culturally enrich us yet sadly. I lived in places with tons of Turks, Lebanese and Albanians. Then places with tons of Russians. And then with more natives. Usually working class people. Outside of that one time when the wife of some Russian guy was hiding at my place when he was trying to beat her up, it was a pretty similar experience.

>know that the dangerous whites are the ones in the South
Well, no shit. Low education, bibles, a culture of racism and love for guns creates the person one would rather want to avoid.

>as though genocide werent a constant feature of different races being in close proximity with each other
Races weren't even a thing until recent history. People cared about more relevant factors like a tribe/"nationality". An /pol/ak idea of races was even more limited in application.

>>11272791
>Because they made the changes that made it worth anything
>technocrat overlords
but you are the technocrat overlords

>>11272948
>the left: you are the overlords, everyone is against us!
>the right: you are the overlords, everyone is against us!
contemporary political discourse is hilarious

>>11272968
>the jews: ov vey do not notice us

>>11270460
Based truth poster!

>>11272912
>Yet a good part of Trumpists and Brexit voters were actually pretty wealthy. Forgot the stats about France but it's likely they paint the same image.
What I said had very little to do with wealth. As I said, the lifestyle of white urbanites is fundamentally different to those living in less densely populated areas, even the wealthy ones. Wealth comes in because the negative impact of their voting patterns only only really effects the poorer ones.

>>11270785
Cicero wrote a treatise on friendship not on love ;)

>>11272968
the left isn't against anybody in particular, it's just political entropy doing it's job

>>11273036
Intersectionality is about creating a coalition of very different social group against the archetypal straight cis white male.

>>11272948
Depends on how the technocrats use their power. Most seem socially liberal sure but really left? Unless their tax avoidance is just playing the long game to create a work-less utopia, it doesn't seem that way. Besides, a good part like Thiel or Mercer are openly right wing.

>>11273001
>the lifestyle of white urbanites is fundamentally different to those living in less densely populated areas
That's true but they are in the majority, and the whites who actually interact with non whites the most.

So what gives? A minority of rich whites from the land with no connection to non rich whites and non whites of any kind, together with some disconnected alt right kids from the burbs, and some poor whites from the country who just want old jobs back, against the majority of rich and poor whites from urban areas who are cool with non whites? More of a civil war than a race war scenario, before we add wimin, who probably won't love getting sexually redistributed for some incels. Not be be overly pessimistic but a moon base sounds more likely in the next decades.

>>11273008
Well, there you go. A "muh classics" writer that should get more attention than the 100th work about a white dude getting the girl after completing the quest.
And shouldn't a male friendship be appealing to the MRA cycles too? This can totally work!

>>11273044
You make is sound tempting. Though still, being against a group of people is so 19th century. Why not dismantle the system that creates the archetypical straight while male, and fix bigger issues that way too?

>>11270857
>-isms have any relevance beyond the self-flagellation of the ego and the mass psychosis the slogans can induce
Banking cartels have resulted in a world where the amount of debt is over twice as much as the amount of money.

>>11273252
>That's true but they are in the majority, and the whites who actually interact with non whites the most.
Not by much, and their interactions with minorities are superficial and painstakingly constructed.
>So what gives? A minority of rich whites from the land with no connection to non rich whites and non whites of any kind, together with some disconnected alt right kids from the burbs, and some poor whites from the country who just want old jobs back, against the majority of rich and poor whites from urban areas who are cool with non whites? More of a civil war than a race war scenario, before we add wimin, who probably won't love getting sexually redistributed for some incels. Not be be overly pessimistic but a moon base sounds more likely in the next decades.
The difficulty is that the urban lifestyle is a very fragile one. These are densely packed, largely unarmed communities that could be easily cut off from the rest of the world. In such a scenario it would be pretty interesting to see the developments in race relations once food becomes scarce.

>>11273289
Yugoslavia and Brazil are the examples of demographic changes.

>>11273289
>could be easily cut off from the rest of the world
They are basically little countries by themselves already, though yeah, specially in Murica they depend on food-supply from the outside, the places where our race war warriors live. Of who a majority hates bad business more than blacks, so still not going to fly. The technocrat angle is the only way this could possible work, but again most relevant players value profits higher than ethnostate fantasies. There are gains in plebs fighting each other on the web or streets from time to time, too few would profit from something more drastic.

>Yugoslavia and Brazil
Both are quasi failed states that are in the motions for a while now. Similarly to Ukraine, which had couple revolutions in last decades. Compared to either of these even Detroit is a nice place to live.

>>11270424
i don’t have to, they have to prove incels are monsters, most of them play MOBA’s all day and watch twitch streams, work at STEM labs

also who cares if they are misogynistic? are they going to mass rape women and force them into slavery? incredibly gay concerns

>>11273371
>watch twitch streams
That's even more disgusting that the woman hating.

>>11271942
The traditional solution came with the traditional payment of rape and pillage. Nowadays, that's called "war crimes".

>>11272407
This is close to the actual truth of all this dumb bullshit, namely; Americans and now Brits need to be stopped for good.

>>11273922
Seeing the recent developments, they don't need external help for that.

>>11270444
Trips of truth.

>>11273383
first of all misogyny is necessary right now, normally its obnoxious and resentful but its absolutely requisite for preventing bug world apocalypse, second of all i agree with you they are subhumans but they’re not violent and most of them aren’t misogynists. They aren’t a threat beyond just causing a socio-political crisis and the occassional lunatic
>>11274433
lol go baq to fucking reddit you refugee nigger

>>11272374
>queers are not a folk, they are just an action
A neural network can detect gays more accurately than humans. At least some gays are born that way (and as a bonus, phrenology is proved valid).
https://psyarxiv.com/hv28a/

>>11274453
>phrenology is proved valid
Physiognomy, not phrenology.

lel what a pathetic place /lit/ is. Full of libshit cucks and feminist vermin.

>>11273280
no dude, that's neoliberalism, not banking cartels
do some research

>>11270458
Exactly; the premise is absolutely desperate.

>>11274453
>gay dude looks like a stereotypical fag
>gay gal looks way better than the hetero one
Why is life so unfair? It's like all the best females are either lesbians or asexual.

>>11270469

You people are fucking tiresome. Is there anything that you don't relate back to capitalism in an attempt to paper over your own utterly dishonest sophistry?

>>11270521
t. Moishe

>>11270731

>>11273044
>Intersectionality is about creating a coalition of very different social group against the archetypal straight cis white male.
that's just tactical entropy going against the main source of order, there's nothing intrinsic in the left that would make it go against archetypal straight cis white male if they weren't the majority and the main source of societal order

it will be fun if they "win" at some point see the coalition crumble and start tearing each other to pieces in a sick kind of way

>>11273989
they'll contaminate everything at this pace, as said above other countries are too retarded to think for themselves so they just copy/paste american racial dynamics into their country because it's what's trendy today even if they don't fit in any sense to the actual situation

maybe if the US and UK collapse tomorrow we will be saved, but if it takes more then 20 years they will drag everybody else with them

>>11274453
>A neural network can detect gays more accurately than humans
just because some people have more predilections for some action doesn't mean they are "a group" or "a folk" in any relevant sense

some people are genetically predisposed to become alcoholics, doesn't mean they will gain anything by becoming a cohesive pressure group in the long term

I needed the laugh, thanks.

But remember OP, Archive the fuck out of the Guardian in future.