/lit/ - Literature

They would have been defeated, because Gandalf would still be the lesser Grey instead of White.

A better question is, in that case, if Boromir WASN'T killed by the orcs, would the rest of the Fellowship have killed him if he tried to take the ring?

And if they did, how would they spin it with Denethor and Faramir?

They would have tried the same route Frodo and Sam actually did try, but the larger party would have resulted in their detection within Mordor. Remember, Sam was only able to rescue Frodo because he had the ring. Had the rest of the party been there, Frodo would have retained the ring after his attack, partly because some wise member of the party would have recognized the life still within him, and partly because no one would have let Sam take it.

>>1120186

When, exactly, did Gandalf's Whitness prove the most important? I mean, the most crucial thing he did in the second two books was probably bring the reinforcements to Helm's Deep.

>>1120190
They would try to reason with Boromir, but he would die anyway, most likely by his own sword or by accident. Actually, it's more likely that he would have killed himself, so I'll go with that.

Gandalf would advise keeping the truth from Denethor, at least until the war had waned. Faramir would be deeply traumatized by the news but in the end agree that it wouldn't be prudent to tell the details of his brother's death to Denethor right away.

Denethor finds out anyway and this sends him on a one-way trip into Crazytown. The rest of the book unfolds the way it was originally written.

>>1120192
Well, no. Because we don't know that they would have listened to Gollum and followed him at all. They would likely have gone over the mountains and avoided Shelob, then run smack dab into Sauron's army (which never marched, since Pippin never looked into the Palentir).

At that point, I couldn't even begin to speculate on what would actually happen.

>>1120193
When he revealed himself to Saruman, to prove he was Saruman's superior. Actually, that's the only time I can think of that the whiteness would have been relevant. Maybe it wasn't necessary after all?

BUT WHEN THEY SEPARATED, GANDALF WAS ALREADY DEAD.

>>1120192

I thought Gandalf had a different route in mind. Also, would Gollum ever have joined them if the party was still so large? Would they have even found the route through Shelob's lair? If they had, how would the whole group have fared against her? Would they have been able to get past the tower there without raising the alarm?

>>1120206 THIS IS FOR:
>>1120186

Moar like what would happen if OP read another book for a change instead of posting LOTR alternate history scenarios every second day?

>>1120210

...but I've never posted a LotR thread on /lit/ before. I usually post on /co/.

>>1120207
I was figuring an eventual rendezvous with Faramir is in the cards no matter what. It just feels right.

>>1120206
>>1120209

OP specifies that this scenario refers to the concept that the Fellowship didn't fragment at all. It doesn't refer specifically to the breaking at the Falls.

What WAS Gandalf's original plan, anyway?

Also, I seem to recall reading that Aragorn was, initially only planning as going as far as Gondor, and then he's split off from the group to go claim his throne. He only stayed with them because the party split apart and he knew they needed him, especially since Aragorn sort of defaulted as leader after the loss of Gandalf.

>>1120212
Really? We get this all the time.
>why didn't the eagles fly to mount doom
>what if Sauron conquered middle earth
>etc

Mind you, it's a topic more interesting than half the crap posted on /lit/ daily. Proceed...

>>1120228

It least it wasn't a thread about balrogs and wings.

>>1120226
To make it through that whatever-the-hell-it's-called Pass, which was much safer than Moria or Caradhras, but ended up being watched by Saruman's crows. I'm unfamiliar with the geography of Middle Earth, so I have no idea where he would go if he could make it through the pass without being seen.

And it's very possible that Aragorn would have gone off on his own if they hadn't gone through Moria, but Gandalf's death forced him to assume the role as leader.

>>1120228
The only LOTR threads I ever see are just random Tom Bombadil threads...

>>1120228
Bear in mind that all those WHAT IF EAGLES SIMPLY FLEW INTO MORDOR threads are probably trolls. This seems like a legitimate inquiry.

Well, here's one really big consequence. Would the Ents ever have gotten involved if Merry and Pippin hadn't ended up in Fangorn?

If they didn't it means that, assuming the battle at Helm's Deep was won even without the assistance of the Huorns, Theoden's army would have had to started a prolonged siege of Isengard. This might have held them up from riding to Gondor, which means the city might have been sacked.

This is, of course, assuming the Fellowship even got embroiled in Rohan and didn't pass straight through or go around it. Mind you, it's conceivably possible that even if the major battle were lost, the Fellowship might have successfully infiltrated Mordor and destroyed the ring. Middle Earth would jsut be a lot more bitched up as a result.

>>1120233

Right, but it was Gandalf's decision to detour through Moria. Presumable he still had some further plan once they made it through the mountains. I mean, they probably still would have gone to Lorien, and still taken the boats down the river.

>>1120241
The Ents just barely got off their woody asses even with Merry and Pippin there, so the rest of your hypotheses would probably be correct.

I believe that under the circumstances the quest would have failed if everything didn't happen exactly as it did barring Tolkien writing something completely different.

>>1120245
You're probably right, if they made it out of Moria without incident.

Would the Fellowship still have gotten gifts from Galadriel if Gandalf was there? If so, what do you think Gandalf would have gotten, if anything?

You know, if they HAD avoided all that business in Rohan, and if they hadn't stayed at Lorien for so long, they might have arrived at Minas Tirith much earlier.

Keep in mind, Minas Tirith was primarily so vulnerable because Denethor had sent the bulk of her forces south, worried about an invasion from Umbar. If Aragorn had claimed the throne, he might have brought more forces up to defend the city proper while the rest of the Fellowship went on to Mt. Doom.

In fact, Aragon concentrating Gondor's forces and hunkering down for a siege early on might have had a similar effect to the end of the book; a distraction that could hold out against Sauron long enough for the rest of the group to get the job done.

Of course, that means the remaining Fellowship would be going into Mordor BEFORE Sauron's main invasion forces had left, and Gandalf wouldn't have been around to hold of the Nazgul. Gondor probably would have fallen and Aragorn would have died if they couldn't reach Mt. Doom VERY quickly, and if they took a more indirect route to get to it, that's very possible. Once they got there, it's completely up in the air if they could actually reach the mountain.

>>1120253

Probably there's not much they could have given Gandalf that his magic couldn't have accomplished. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if he could hide himself with an elf cloak, or if the light from his staff would have a very similar effect to the Light of Earendil.

>>1120253

Probably there's not much they could have given Gandalf that his magic couldn't have accomplished. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if he could hide himself without an elf cloak, or if the light from his staff would have a very similar effect to the Light of Earendil.

And he already had a bitchin' sword.

You know, if all that crap hadn't happened in Rohan to solidify the group's loyalty, would Gimil and Legolas have stuck with them? They had talked, even in Rivendell, of splitting off early. If Boromir wasn't dead, he'd probably split off to go to the defense of Gondor as well as Aragorn.

Which would just leave Gandalf and the hobbits to get to the mountain.

I remember a bit in the appendix of the books that consisted of Gandalf filling in the rest of the group that the whole damn reason he first backed Bilbo's adventure was because he suspect Sauron was alive and that a great war would start soon, and he didn't want Sauron bribing Smaug to assist in it.

Now THERE'S a hypothetical. Gondor would have been so royally fucked if Sauron had Smaug on his side.

Okay, so what exactly triggered Gandalf's shift from Grey to White?

>>1120236
I don't want to start a shit storm but I don't frequent /lit/ as often as I used to. Why don't the eagles just fly there?

The plan was probably to help Frodo get as close as possible to Mordor and let his sneaky halfling ass run it the rest of the way. Mordor would have either been attacking human settlement or sitting around all sedentary like, in both cases creating an opportunity for Frodo to sneak by.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

Seems others have your idea as well.

>>1120282
In the Silmarillion its revealed that Gandalf, the elves, and other wizards believe that Sauron still exists and will reappear but Saruman, who is in control of the whole anti-Sauron council, says that its no biggie and he's gone for good. That way he can search for the ring without interference and use its power for himself.

>>1120496
Because the eagles are assholes.

They would have gotten to the Black Gate and DIED. Unless Gandalf asked Gollum for help. But he would have betrayed them eventually and died. It just depends WHERE Gollum betrayed them.

>>1120245
Frodo wanted Moria. Gandalf wanted to go over mountains.

>>1120282
What..... but Gandalf didn't even know about the ring till later...

>>1120612
Gandalf wanted to go through Moria, Aragorn wanted Caradhras

>>1120496

Ever-watching eye of Sauron could easily spot them and seek the nazgul fellbeasts on their asses, which, contrary to what the movies have us belief near the end, can kick the eagle's asses. That's pretty much it.