/lit/ - Literature

They forgot about God

I know, you're right.

Urbanization, desu. Cities alienate us from an =x that the human being needs for spiritual maturity.

>>11146912
nigga the polis gave birth to philosophy as we know it

>>11146919
>he doesn't know Plato and Aristotle represent the point the Fall of man into bloodless discursion

I shiggy diggy

>>11146933
>Plato
>discursion
plato was a mystic who used dialectic to transcend the dialectic, and aristotle was all about uniting to that active intellect and attaining immortality through it

>>11146948
Plato was admittedly closer to thought's Beyond than Aristotle, Aristotle began the immanentization of universals that would culminates with nominalism. Nevertheless, Plato's problem was using language to negate language, a kind of pseudo-death for someone who couldn't take the plunge into actual death like Socrates

>>11146979
yeah aristotle is inferior in some ways, but wtf are you smoking bro everybody dies eventually and takes the plunge into the next stage of existence (death isn't the end). it's the death of the physical body which is the pseudo death, every filthy pleb and his auntie experiences it. the death and rebirth of the soul is the real one

>>11147007
My point is wanting to simulate this death - using discursion to negate discursion - is kind of beside the point, you wouldn't need to negate the spiraling of the dialectic if you didn't initiate it in the first place. But I get Plato just wanted to communicate his Sun like all good, rational mystics want to do (and ultimately fail)

>>11146948
Plato murdered the embodied Apollonian-Dyonisian logos of the pre socratics. Not that it was entirely his fault, he was only the last link in a chain of decadence.

>>11147030
plato's methodology would be pointless if it didn't work. in which case you could just find another methodology that does like neoplatonic contemplation and theurgy, or monastic disciplines etc. anyway plato wasn't negating dialectic he was transcending it. when you transcend something that thing remains intact on a lower level. nothing wrong with dialectic as long as it knows its place

How to get into mysticism without falling into the traps laid out by academic historians and revisionists post moderns?

>>11147038
shut up nietzsche, you were literally wrong about everything

>>11147069
those are the traps at the entrance to mysticism, the traps laid by the devil and his minions once you've entered into the discipline are far more dangerous. only way to acoid those is through the guidance of someone who has already successfully completed the journey you are undertaking and knows the way

>>11147074
not nietzsche lol, he thought the apollonian was degenerate and didn't realize apollonian and dyonisian are two faces of the same medal

>>11147083
>acoid
avoid*

>>11147088
>apollonian and dyonisian are two faces of the same medal
that's exactly what nietzsche argues, read pic related pleb

>>11147038
explain, i am familiar with the element spergs, and they speak in occultisms but i never sensed anything dionysian save for in Heraclitus Senpai
>>11147069
by not being religious, or afraid of demons, or autistically attached to systems and being extremely wary of tradfags and new ageists (the one will do the equivalent of psychiatry and deaden your subtle faculties, the other is the equivalent of a druggie whore you shack up with and will poison you by over stimulating and giving no structure). Daoism, Hermeticism (read Bardon for help, read Kybalion for mechanics, don’t take either too seriously), Gnosticism, Zen and Tantra are the purest kinds of mysticism, you can also take psychedelics and get into animism but its more dangerous (you will lose to gain)

also other people are only interested in your mysticism when they’re high or drunk, or when you’re speaking in rhymes and aphorisms, or riddles. Being an airhead spiritualist will make you look ugly. Airy detachment with enigmatic slightly affected speech is good, just understand you have to go to bed, br, breakfast like everyone else and you still need money and to know how techne works and how to navigate socially. Most people mix hip hop trash culture with mysticism quite effectively. I prefer just retaining the absolute bare bones of respectability and then eschewing all anti-culture, but its up to you if u want to see new marvel film. Also advise strongly against racialism or utopian pseudo-socialist shit like theosophy or christfaggotry. You will get into politics and that’s poison for the soul as suddenly every exercise becomes worldly and meant to advance other people’s interests

>>11147120
>be wary of new ageists
>recommends zen (the favorite of ageing jewish exhippies and nu atheists), gnosticism (paranoid and melodramatic schizo shit with zero rigour that was btfo by plotinus), and tantra (90% of the literature is muh sex magic shit, and actually joining a legit parampara is pretty much impossible for a westerner)
>recommends bardon and kybalion
>do psychedelics brooo
how is this much pseudery even possible

>>11147166
>Zen Buddhism is for pseuds

Ask me how I know you're one

>>11147173
Zen buddhism is for burnt out hippies with goatees that make you take off your shoes when you walk into their house

>>11147182
hella frickin epic

>>11147120
good post

>>11147083
It requires discipline? And a guru? These sound like tricks too.

>>11147120
I am mostly interested in taoism. Would like to be an old man falling over myself giggling in the wood drunk on sake. How to be like water?

Nietzsche broke western philosophy, OP, don't blame the moderns for trying to fix it.

>>11147208
>rigour is a trick
>proper methodology is a trick
>sound advice from experienced elders is a trick
when someone gives you directions for how to get to the supermarket are you like "naaaw bro youre just tricking me ima walk in whatever direction i feel like"

>>11147182
>wearing shoes in the house

>>11147217
nietzsche broke post cartesian philosophy (a good thing), but he completely misunderstood the ancients

>>11147219
Weird post. To me all the disciplines and gurus seem like a way of obscuring the truth for their personal gain.

>>11147236
there are fake gurus and real gurus. one way to tell the difference is to see if they brag, seek personal gain, put themselves up on a pedestal etc. no one said finding the real thing would be easy

Americans were a mistake.

>>11147248
if it wasnt for enlightenment era french philosohers there would have been no americans as we know them, get rekt pierre

Guys like Hume and Descartes rejected formal and final causes for no good reason and nobody has seriously questioned it since. Everyone built off of this faulty rejection of Aristotelianism and things have become progressively more retarded as a result.

>>11146879
Beliefe in the transmigration of souls is the prerequisite for any fearless inquiry into the eternal nature. Monotheism forces us into pragmatic, time constrained ruts, feeling like we must get it "right" or be damned forever.

>>11147264
This. The rejection of intrinsic causality was the death knell of the spirit. Hume is boor.

>>11147277
there's plusses and minuses to both. belief in transmigration can make us compacent, and montheism can make us take this lifetime very seriously and get a lot out of one lifetime

>>11147333
complacent*

>>11147166
>sees soiritual traditions as dominance displays
ok so you’re a pathetic dualist retard
>all zen is american zen buddhism
again, have never penetrated a single koan, don’t understand Huangbo, could never see correctly
>gnosticism is schizo
yes, this is a good thing. read Deleuze you massive pussy. bet you’ve never had open eyed mandalic visions before you fucking normalfaggot neurotypical nigger slave
>recc’s two practical works for developing mental skills
yup. i don’t want him reading anything but practical and source texts. academic subhumans should be avoided like the plague and christfaggotry is pure evil
>rails against tantra
i Askhually meant for him to read the aghamas and various tantric commentaries from primary sources not reading secondary source books for boomers you massive twit
>psychedelics are bad because i can’t do them without remembering bad things
you do you man, if you’re a coward who would’ve been stoned to death by siberians circa 10,000 BCE that’s on you. if youcouldn’t handle your drugs before the ox and plow you were as good as dead. every single warrior and spiritual leader had to imbibe that shit before becoming a man. if youcan’r handle an eighth by yourself at night you’re a fucking coward

i have nothing but disdain for people like you who can’t restrain their lust for conflict for even a single day. enjoy burning out in a decade

>>11147224
this man knows

>>11147355
>enjoy burning out in a decade
i'm walking the middle path dawg, you're the one whose gonna burn himself out with schizo psychedelic diy spirituality

>>11147069
Read Zhuangzi.

>>11147386
ya very balanced off the cuff rejection of zen and tantra you seem like you’re at-one’d w/dao

>>11147402
im actually a run of the mill muzzie with contempt for diy spirituality

>>11147355
>you do you man, if you’re a coward who would’ve been stoned to death by siberians circa 10,000 BCE that’s on you. if youcouldn’t handle your drugs before the ox and plow you were as good as dead. every single warrior and spiritual leader had to imbibe that shit before becoming a man. if youcan’r handle an eighth by yourself at night you’re a fucking coward

Ladies and gentleman, here we have it, a true spiritualist.

>>11147355
Deleuze was wrong, schizo experiences are speculative-linguistic, most historical "enlightenment" practices were mainly neo-cortex ones, made to reduce language. Schizo states may be a step, but nothing more than that.

>>11147568
>most historical "enlightenment" practices were mainly neo-cortex ones
no, actually they were spiritual practices you fuckin biological reductionist, you're even more retarded then the guy you're responding to

>>11147101
No he says they are distinct, he sees the apollonian as static order while in reality the act of knowledge in the greeks has frenzic and mystic characteristic. Eraclitus talks about this.
>>11147120
Nothing to do with occultism read Colli

>>11147576
The brain-state correlates of said spiritual experiences can be empirically studied.
Why would you disbelieve such studies.
Why are you building an ivory tower of beautiful ideas for yourself instead of confronting the obvious *efficiency* of scientific inquiry.

>>11147333
>>11147277
Even a belief in transmigration doesn't necessarily preclude one from working autistically to figure out the nature of the cosmos before they die. The idea is to escape the wheel of becoming, after all, not just try to find a nicer place on it.

>>11147635
What a maroon.

>Cartesian dualism is the default position of ancient initiatic traditions
>spiritual experiences are empirically reproducible so they are not real

Stop.

>where did it all go wrong
Septuagint

>>11146879
Plato
/thread

>>11146919
>polis = industrialized cities and suburbia

>>11147166
>>11147173
>>11147182
>>11147190
>>11147355
>>11147386
>>11147402
>>11147476
Why are you pseuds even fighting? How does allowing such obviously aggressive energy into your lives benefit you in any way?

>>11146879
unironically the journey of the earth around the galactic center

>>11147214
Just be yourself

>>11146879
Only the great Psoid Froid shall bring us saviour!

'Memento Morri is a conjuction consisting of Memento Mori, ‘remember you must die’, and Morri, ‘the desire to capture fleeting experience.’ It is the summation of my view on what gives life meaning.

You’re such a sneaky little bastard, Psoid Froid, you with your wordplays!

Ha, t’is true! T’is true! I am the modern day Shakespeare for words are my play!

Without finitude there would be no meaning; we would never be able to miss anything. If we were unable to miss anything, there would be nothing to desire because it can all be obtained.
Meaning can never be permanently acquired; it must always be desired (and pursued) and can thusly only ever be partially fulfilled. Meaning is the longing for the perennially unobtainable, and the desire for (lasting) impact through fulfillment.'

Bit about 'without finitude' is shite, but the rest is profound.

>>11147408
fucking disgusting
>>11147568
>schizo-experiences are speculative linguistic
no they’re not you stupid fuck that’s why schizos have open eye visuals
>>11147476
im not a spiritualist i strongly disagree with the spiritualist movement and the new age
>>11147597
no they are occult
>>11147664
i don’t mind either way you people aren’t humane or friendly and never presented yourselves as being so

>>11147716
>it's theosophyposter again

>>11147716
>no they’re not you stupid fuck that’s why schizos have open eye visuals
that's not the prime phenomenon which identifies schizo states, just a symptom : it is not the characteristic all schizo states share. The characteristic they all share is, they produce absurd, speculative (in the most simple sense of the word) links between concepts. Read a book on the neurology of it, I'm being very basic here.

>>11147716
>no they’re not you stupid fuck that’s why schizos have open eye visuals
Maybe but that’s not even all of it, schizophrenics often have a verbal-associative psychology which runs away with them. In other words, they can’t stop thinking in certain mechanical ways, can’t control their thoughts or separate themselves from them. Schizophrenics just seeing hallucinations is a bit of a meme, verbal hallucinations and delusional thought-processes make up much more of their illness. Schizophrenics are prone to word salad, to having voices in their heads spout off a bunch of nonsense, to associating things just by slight connection, perhaps verbal/in how the words sound. Mystical practice is ironically often precisely ANTI-schizophrenic in that it seeks to reduce over-dependence on the morass of verbal associative thinking in the brain, the diseased nature of which becomes obvious in schizophrenics.

>>11147646
>Cartesian dualism is the default position of ancient initiatic traditions
didn't say that, unrelated to my post
>spiritual experiences are empirically reproducible so they are not real
didn't say that, unrelated to my post

>>11147726
>pretends to be a wise spiritual anon
>oh look this person said the thing better become a crusading autist
im not a theosophist i don’t look at theosophy 99% of my reading has nothing to do with theosophy. You dumb faggot i just read her books when i was younger and noticed she was really sharp and had done more research than most other people had. There’s nothing in here relating to theosophy as nothing ive recc’d has anything to do with theosophy. Fucking monomaniacal autist

all of you people are so fucking awful

also

>>11147744
yes, exactly. I'm glad someone else, more knowledgeable, could write that post, thx.

>>11147775

>>11147576
>my brain is a materialles substance lol take that reductionists

>>11147771
those are the exact implications of your post

>>11147775
you're a really angry person, and I don't blame you cause there are raging brainlets here and you and me are in the higher tiers of knowledge on this board but calm the fuck down dude

>>11147817
>higher tiers of knowledge
Yeah you two are in the HIGHer tiers of knowledge, fuckin stoners

>>11147821
>what I don't understand has to be druggie nonsense

crutch argument for brainlets

>>11146879
>reads Apology and one chapter of a secondary source on Plato
>doesn't read any philosophy from after the 1600s
>make this thread

>>11147792
so you are just a nihilistic retard 18 year old
>>11147744
>schizophrenics often do x so they don’t do y
>akshually schizophrenics seeing hallucinations is a meme
lol no this is wrong they have strong visuals, i know multiple schizos and they have visions, ive had them too and after high doses of psychedelics and sleep deprivation.
>mechanical
ok whatever you want to call a self organizing organic process man.
>delusional thought processes
like seeing shapes that aren’t there and bright colors, aurus, orbs, streakers?
>mystical practice is anti-schizophrenic because it reduces the thing i characterized schizophrenia as

why are you driving this wedge so hard what’s the point? Gnostic mystics had strong open eyed visuals and vividly describe revelatory scenes frequently in their literature, Blake did, Nietzsche did, Swedenborg did, Bohme did, Socrates did, Heraclitus did, Parmenides did, Kabbalists (merkaba jews especially) did, is that not schizophrenic?

its just such a weird quibble in response to my statement which was in essence that gnosticism is based on altered states of consciousness which it is, which is why there is so much imagery and psychosis latent within. Open eye visuals produce schizogenic syntax, they go together. Joyce had visions he wasn’t just playing with language. Its not as if these people don’t see things too when they are rattling off their off-kilter speech. You’re trying to isolate a disorder as being one way and then reduce it to being a limited range of affects. Its just bizarre unless you don’t know what you’re talking about and are pathologically averse to gnosticism because of the implications. or are a retarded neuorscience faggot

>>11147221
what's wrong with burgers?
shoes in the house? holy crap

>>11147264
>for no good reason
What good reason was there to accept it in the first place?
A bore perhaps, but was he wrong?

>>11147887
The end state of a system gives a complete picture of the entire series of states preceding it. So, yes its extremely important. You can deconstruct everything from any ending, you cannot do this from the middle.

>>11147778
To be fair to the guy though, there are traditions in mysticism which seem very similar to actively fostering and controlling schizophrenia to see the insights one can get from getting lost in fantasy, imagination, probing the subconscious mind’s depths, etc. Even though he was nominally a psychologist, Jung’s “active imagination” is a good example of this path of mysticism, as well as visualization practices you can find in many mystical paths besides, like Tibetan idea of creating a tulpa, Crowley’s system of magic, Hindu devotion to an idol, etc. But just as many mystical traditions view these as temptations in the way, the play of the mind/infinite generative capacity of maya (illusion) instead of going beyond mind.

For instance, any real Buddhist would say that this is just a way to insanity and what’s more important is realizing the conditioned nature of the self, interdependence of all, and being able to get to a state beyond mind. In fact, there’s even a Buddhist term I forget for hallucinations you can experience when meditating for some time, and Buddhists even say to ignore them/respond to them detachedly, no matter how joyous and interesting they are. Vedantists also have a similar conception of the advanced yogi attaining a state of union with the Brahman which is beyond conditioned reality and all form. There’s also the notion of “siddhis”, mystical powers you can develop even if you’re not enlightened, and which don’t necessarily prove you’re enlightened. The Orthodox Christian mystics had the idea of what they referred to as “beauty”/allurement, or beautiful visions and mystical experiences you can have which are really just temptations distracting you from union with God. So overall there can be two broad trends in mysticism, one of increasing the power of imagination and fantasy to get some interesting fantastical visions, one of suppressing these to attain to a more lucid consciousness of the true nature of reality. So this guy seems to be more in the nature of the first one, which would indeed have similarities to schizophrenia.

>>11147896
This is at best an argument for Teleonomy, no?

>>11147844
>are pathologically averse to gnosticism
Nope, I appreciate the Gnostics massively. They in fact taught self-observation practices meant to calm the mind and free one from thought. The powers/archons which feed on our energy, the prison of matter, could in fact be viewed as the limiting power of associative thought, and attachment to things in general (similar to Buddhism in fact). This is also what the Corpus Hermeticum calls the prison of the flesh and the “sentient corpse”. Also see my post >>11147913

>>11147642
I was good friends with a number of Tibetan transplants and something one of them told me stuck: basically it took the Buddha hundreds of thousands of lifetimes to attain so it is quite foolish to presume that you are progressing within a lifetime it would be akin to looking for evidence of biologic evolution in a single generation.