/lit/ - Literature

>Sunni Islam

>>11137662
Why? Do you have good reasons or just memes?

>>11137662
well, if you want an actual good book about Shi'ism by a notable Shi'i from the last century read pic related

>>11137636
Is it cool itt to ask for info about Arabic/Islamic politics or is that out the bounds of the thread (can we stray from religion or will mods delete political convo)??

Keep this semitic sandnigger shit off /lit/.

>>11137662
>Islam

>>11137688
You can ask, sure. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to politics so I won't be able to help much, but two of the videos I posted were made by an Azerbaijani guy who does lots of videos on geopolitics. See the "Science in Islam" video or the history video.

>trad niggers in charge of being actual traditionalists

>become moslems
Truly I shall never cease to be amazed by the lack of depth of you guys

>>11137689
If there's Christian general, then we can have an Islamic/Middle Eastern thread you triggered tard

>>11137636
Why do muslims love theocratic dictatorships?

>>11137712
A Caliphate is not a dictatorship since the Caliph cannot DICTATE whatever he wants, he himself has to follow the Shari'a which makes for a very hands-off small government approach. A proper Shari'a government does not interfere much with people's lives. It's quite difficult to convict people of crimes under that kind of law because the requirements are extremely stringent. I posted a few lectures on this in the OP, I suggest you watch them. Jonathan AC Brown has a lot of material on this and related points.

>>11137697
I don't want to step into /pol/, or even /his/, territory but what are some good resources regarding the idea of Arab nationalism or self-determination?

Particularly stuff which is of interest to the current conflicts in the region?

This is a very recent interest of mine, so I'm looking for some very entry-level, basic, grounding material

>>11137712
>>11137725
John Esposito's books are also a good source.

>>11137728
>Arab nationalism
I don't know, but that would actually be ALMOST off topic, since it's not specifically Islam related. Arabs are only approximately 15% of Muslims. It was a movement that placed ethnicity over religion and contributed to the downfall of the Ottoman Caliphate. I would help you out but I genuinely don't know what the best books for that would be.

>>11137728
I've heard this is good
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674058194/?coliid=I143E58Y9SHNB2&colid=1BRGCG7Q2WNLC&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

>>11137728
You might enjoy the banned Robert Fisk documentary "Beirut to Bosnia".

>>11137738
No worries man, my worry was that this would be derailing and off-topic, and it probably is t b h

>>11137743
thanks man I'll take a look

>>11137745
I'll check his out, thanks for the rec. but why the ban?

>>11137712
What’s wrong with theocratic dictatorships?

Anyone here trying to learn Qur'anic Arabic on their own?

>>11137712
You might like this, sheds some insight to that question

>>11137766
>but why the ban?
http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Beirut_to_Bosnia
>In due course, we discovered that Discovery was being sent American Express cards cut in half. American Express being one of the sponsors of the original series. Discovery rang me in Beirut to say they were receiving lots of letters condemning the films from various groups. Then director Mike Dutfield and I heard that Discovery had canceled the reshowing
Some people got triggered by it. probably was too anti-Israel

>>11137783
>answering a question with an unrelated question

>>11137790
Yes, so far so good. I have a bunch of videos that go through it thoroughly. It's supposed to take two years total to get through the series. I also was given some textbooks by friends.

>>11137820
I want to start, please share!

I will take you seriously if you admit that the Muslim writers in the middle ages actually drank alcohol and the references to wine and intoxication aren't just spiritual metaphors.

>>11137823
Where/how can I upload them? I'm not computer savy. They're really good but it's a lot of files.

>>11137826
I'm sure some may have, while others didn't. Rumi obviously didn't, but I think in Andalusia it was more common.

daily reminder

>>11137832
using a volafile.io room is probably the easiest though it's slow because it it's not run on a big serverfarm.

It might be faster if you make a throwaway mega.nz/google drive account and just upload everything there.

If you need any help, ask. I can walk you through it.

>>11137962
trying to upload to google drive, keep fingers crossed. approx 3 hours

>>11137974
also keep thread bumped. I gotta head out and I'll be busy all day tomorrow so I'll only be able to check up on it on sunday or late sat night

What do Muslim astronauts in the space station do during Ramadan?

>>11137636
>Ali Ataie

>>11137636
Are there any good debates in english between Sunnis and Shia over which school is the true one?

How do you guys deal with the more human elements of the religion?

>>11137711
No really, this shit does not belong here and islam/arabs should not be spoken of in a positive light.

>>11137974
>>11137981
alright thanks

>>11138040
Human elements?
As for sunni/shia, personally, I've never really cared about it. I have friends from lots of different schools of thought. Also, when I did look into it the historical/textual evidence was ambiguous enough that you could make a good faith argument for either school based on interpretation -- and interpretation ought to be left up to the scholars. So I'm convinced the played up division is essentially geopolitical and was probably exacerbated by scholars who went rogue/political. At the end of the day, both shia/sunni believe that God is one, that the Prophet Muhammad was his messenger, and that the Qu'ran is the word of God. That much is enough for me.
All that being said, I don't know any good debates, no, sorry.

>>11138040
I don't know of any good debates, but as a convert to Islam who was initially biased toward Shi'a, the bottom line for me was that:
- they didn't have strong evidence that their "Imamology" was actually an authentic belief that traced back to the teachings of their own Imams let alone to the Prophet (saws). It seems to have developed much later and they retroactively attributed these beliefs to their Imams. The nail in the coffin for me was the fact that some of the major founders of Sunni schools of Fiqh had studied under these Imams (e.g. Malik studied under Jafar as-Sadiq) and reverenced these teachers yet taught nothing resembling Shi'i beliefs. So the irony is that if you really want to follow the Imams the best way is to become a Sunni Muslim. Not to mention that almost all the Sunni Sufi tariqas trace back to Ali, so again paradoxically the best way to be a "partisan of Ali" (literal meaning of Shi'a) is to be a Sunni.
- They reject some of the Prophet's (saws) closest companions who the Prophet (saws) praised in extremely high terms. They also hate Aisha (ra) who Muhammed (saws) was literally told to marry in a divinely inspired dream. So did Gabriel (as) tell the Prophet (saws) to marry someone who would later betray him? It's too incredulous.
- their overall Imamology is just too over-the-top to take seriously.

Still, they are Muslims, without a doubt, otherwise they would not be allowed to make hajj, so most Sunnis still consider them Muslims. I think their ideas are interesting and the book mentioned here >>11137685 is really good. Seyyed Hossein Nasr is also Shi'i and I lots of respect for him.

>Islam and the Vision of Non-Duality, The Qur’ānic Mahāvākyas and the Metaphysical Themes

http://www.perennialfoundation.org/resources/Documents/PDFs/Peter%20Samsel%20-%20Islam%20and%20the%20Vision%20of%20Non-Duality%20(1).pdf

>>11138073
>Human elements?
Things which you wouldnt expect from the divine
eg Gods word only being beautiful or being able to be comprehended in 1 language or the religions founder getting exemptions from things that would otherwise be sinful for other members.

>At the end of the day, both shia/sunni believe that God is one, that the Prophet Muhammad was his messenger, and that the Qu'ran is the word of God. That much is enough for me.
Do Sunnis think they will go to heaven thought and vice versa?

>>11137636
>Based Mohammed Iqbal
>The reconstruction of Islamic Thought

Also, OP is absolutely needed.

Torrent available with many comfy islamic texts "Islamic Philosophy" search

Ibn Sina's translated works (many not translated cos muh mullahs be mad.)

Ghulam Pervaiz on
>Islam and Socialism

>>11138129
Keeping the Quran in one language maintains the integrity of the revelation. Arabic is an extremely precise language grammatically.
>from things that would otherwise be sinful for other members.
I presume you are referring to the marriages of the Prophet (saws). His motives are not suspect. For one, he was known among everyone including his enemies for being honest and trustworthy, secondly most of his wives were older and divorcees, these marriages served important strategic purposes.

>>11138050
>Literally using algorithms to post this

>>11138129
>Do Sunnis think they will go to heaven thought and vice versa?
Yes, although, technically the only way to get into heaven is through God's mercy. This includes the Prophet (saws). No one is absolutely guaranteed.

>>11137728
A Line In The Sand focuses on Lawrence of Arabia but talks of this as a genesis point of Arab Nationalism

>>11137826
Ibn Sina banged 10/10 THOTS and drank wine after based /lit/ posting

You happy now lad?

>>11138148
Every accomplishment in the middle east was by Indo-Europeans or highly admixed Aryans who used to live in the region and still do in parts. Actual arabs are retarded and have never accomplished shit.

>>11138159
>10/10 THOTS
that's not haram tho if you marry them, hell you could marry and divorce a constant stream of insta-thots if you wanted (although that would be discouraged)

>>11138160
>Indo-Europeans
So? Islam is a religion. Only approx. 15% of Muslims are Arab.

>>11138160
>Mentions Islam
>Gets BTFO
>Backtracks and tries to delineate Arabs, admixed Aryans and Indo-Europeans

WEW lad.

>Cradle of civilization and based libraries 2.0 when?

>>11138166
True
But Mut'aa from the shi'ite school is just too insane a concept for us Sunnis

>>11138160
What's your point? This is a thread about Islam, not Arabs.

>>11138178
I'm not taking about mut'aa. I'm talking marriage and divorce. It's feasible if you find thots who are willing to set a low dowry or you're rich af.

>>11138169
No one cares about all those squatpot Indonesians.

>>11138171
So what are you some pussy white guy LARPing as a moslem because you're too afraid to take your own side? Real pathetic m8.

>>11138181
Aye, I know, just pointing out Mutaa too

You lads have anything on the Hadith and the politics during it's compilation

IMO the single most important thing holding Islam back as it's given the mullahs mad illogical power

>muh science of the hadith
Absolute state of justifying political chinese whispers banned by Hz.Umar but compiled 200 years after by a Persian favouring Aisha during a civil war that also contains the preservation of incredibly indigenous yet non-Islamic acts

>>11138145
>Keeping the Quran in one language maintains the integrity of the revelation. Arabic is an extremely precise language grammatically.
That seems to be applying very limited and human standards though as if God was incapable of making a message that humans could preserve AND find beautiful in all but one language.

>I presume you are referring to the marriages of the Prophet.. these marriages served important strategic purposes.
Thats the very human element of it, only he was allowed to have a special sin exemption for strategic purposes and even some purposes which dont seem as strategic like how he was released from a oath he made to his wives not to sleep with his female slaves.

>>11138195
>No one cares about all those squatpot Indonesians.
Not an argument.
>you're too afraid to take your own side?
Islam is a set of principles, beliefs and a code of conduct from a divinely revealed text and the example set by the Prophet (saws) who revealed that text. The kind of ethno-political partisanship you are espousing is a modern invention born of deviated Enlightenment era European values.

>>11138129
I'm not >>11138145 but I wanted to add on

It makes sense that the Qu'ran is only supposed to be read in the original word. There can be poetic translations or translations that try to be beautiful, but at the end of the day, all translations are interpretations and are not equal to the original text. If you not monolingual, just read the same poetry in translation and in the original -- they are obviously different. And as >>11138145 said, the language is well preserved, and so there's no real reason to read it in translation when you can read the original in it's integrity.

As for the exemptions, they make sense in their historical context. For example, did you know that the prophet never met one of the women he married from before the time of the marriage onwards? She had moved to Abyssinia and her husband had died and so she had no one to look after her there, so the prophet married her via courier and never ended up meeting her after that simply to provide his name as protection for her.

We don't know who goes to heaven at all, only God knows that. But yes, anyone is capable of going to heaven if they receive God's mercy.

>>11138150
Is that view the same with conservatives and mainstream muslims?

>>11138195
>So what are you some pussy white guy LARPing as a moslem because you're too afraid to take your own side? Real pathetic m8.

Listen Cletus, the fact you've believed me to be a
>white pussy
despite no evidence indicating this,
exemplifies the ideological hair of the swine that resides in your eyes.

Remove it and learn something good.

>>11138209
>born of deviated Enlightenment era European values.

Poor Adelard of Bath

>>11138150
intercession by any human or prophet is a contentious topic.
Only God can offer forgiveness if you go by the logic

>>11138196
>mullahs mad illogical power
how so? fatwas aren't iron laws, they're just "expert opinions". Read pic related and watch some Jonathan AC Brown lectures.
>That seems to be applying very limited and human standards though as if God was incapable of making a message that humans could preserve AND find beautiful in all but one language.
But he didn't only choose one language. Each prior revelation was in a different language: Sanskrit for the Hindus, Hebrew for the Jews, etc. Final Revelation was in Arabic.

Such incidents related to the Prophets are instrumental in learning about Shari'a.

>>11138205
Right, and how would that work? We don't have a strict orthodoxy, so what translation would be "canonical"? How would we know the translator was "divinely inspired"? How would you deal with languages changing? Qu'ranic Arabic is (mostly) frozen since when the Qu'ran was revealed.
The way it is now seems more logical to me. While I believe God is capable of creating beautiful translations, I fail to see why it is necessary.

>>11138229
I'm pretty sure he meant that even the Prophet requires God's mercy, which he got.

>>11138212
Yeah, it's literally a hadith. The Prophet (saws) says this to his wife Aisha (ra). Not everyone is familiar with all hadith, but scholars and educated Muslims should be familiar with it.

>>11138218
I was asking. What race are you? If you're a white guy LARPing itt you got issues.

>>11138229
It's a contentious topic nowadays because of fundamentalists but intercession was a historically accepted mainstream Sunni belief

>>11138237
pic related, oops

>>11138246
>If you're a white guy LARPing
see
>>11138209

>>11138256
Why aren't you answering the question about your race?

>>11138211
>It makes sense that the Qu'ran is only supposed to be read in the original word. There can be poetic translations or translations that try to be beautiful, but at the end of the day, all translations are interpretations and are not equal to the original text.
Which is why its so human and like other texts. Would it not a be miracle for a text to be beautiful and precise in all or even most languages?

>>11138267
Because it's irrelevant. I'm a principled person. I act according to beliefs and principles, not the latest fashionable modern ideologies that rest on utterly contingent natural data. If you want to debate we can debate beliefs and principles, my race is irrelevant. Or can you not handle an actual intellectual engagement?

>>11138268
>Which is why its so human and like other texts.
It was revealed for humans.
>Would it not a be miracle for a text to be beautiful and precise in all or even most languages?
One is sufficient.

>>11138241
>Right, and how would that work?
The same way it did with the Quran, either revelation, a deceleration by the Caliph or simply apply the tests within the Quran itself and see if similar verses could be produced or replicated.

>While I believe God is capable of creating beautiful translations, I fail to see why it is necessary.
Because Humans aren't - hence it would make for a very convincing miracle and make Islam vastly more accessible for the world.

>>11138268
Sure, that is true, that would be miraculous if it were the case. However, I don't know why you are seemingly insisting that that specific miracle is required for Islam to be valid -- Islam has other miracles.

>>11138280
>It was revealed for humans.
Yeah but in a way that has the same limitations of works produced by human minds alone.
>One is sufficient.
Thats kind of avoiding the point of what makes a text miraculous. Do you know of a text that is beautiful and clear in all languages, could a human make it?

>>11138283
>Because Humans aren't - hence it would make for a very convincing miracle and make Islam vastly more accessible for the world.
No amount of miracles could ever prove the truth or falsehood of anything. If I turn water into wine infront of you and tell you that 2+2=5 you would be an idiot to believe me.

>>11138291
There is no way an unlettered Arab living in 7th century Hejaz could have produced the Quran

>>11138274
>race is irrelevant
No, it's not. You're grasping for an alien identity because you're too afraid to embrace your own. It's obvious.

>>11138299
You're not a mind reader and you don't know my motives. You're just proving either a total unwillingness or total incapacity for intellectual debate. Making psychological speculations about someone is not principled and has no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claims being made by that person.

>>11138283
1. The prophet Muhammad is the last prophet, no other prophets will walk the earth until the apocalypse. So there will be no more revelation.
2. The Caliph is a political leader, not a religious leader.
3. I'm not actually sure if this is possible in the first place, if we're talking about the space of all possible languages, grammar is incredibly vague. Not to say that God wouldn't be able to make such a word, but even if he did, we probably wouldn't be able to verify it in a convincing way.

>>11138299
Read the prophet's last sermon. Race is irrelevant.

>>11138284
I never said it was a requirement. It’s just one of the things that’s give me doubts. Almost all miracles happened a long time ago or were limited to a few people at a specific moment accordingly it’s much harder to find a religion which is clearly the one truth - instead it takes increasingly larger amounts of faith - having a Quran like this would make things so much simpler

>>11138331
See
>>11138292

Having a Quran like that would only be convincing if you're an ignoramus. Bottom line is you need to look at te claims Muslims believe and see if it's reasonable and believable. Miracles don't matter. The Quran itself constantly mocks people for asking for miracles. Quran espouses a belief in:
- One transcendant deity, the source of all manifestation.
- A long series of divine revelations given to all people over thousands (maybe longer) of years as a guidance in this temporary earthly life.
- One final revelation as we approach the end of history, or according to some, the end of one particular cycle of history.

Are these reasonable? What would it take to prove these claims? What are the alternatives? Personally I think just about any religion is better than none.

>>11138305
Latching onto a desert pedo cult will not make up for your lacking machismo.

>>11138352
>Latching onto a desert pedo cult will not make up for your lacking machismo.
I actualy agree with that, which is why I haven't latched onto a desert pedo cult. I've adopted beliefs and principles which I found to be reasonable and consistent with what I already believed prior to officialy accepting Islam. I'm not familiar with any such pedo cults.

>>11137695
Basically this.

>>11137685
SHITE ISLAM XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>11138488
simply epic

Not interest in the shitskin religion lads

I appologise for the delay had to run an errand.
>>11138298
>There is no way an unlettered Arab living in 7th century Hejaz could have produced the Quran
Its unlikely but not impossible - hence the faith element.

>>11138306
>1. The prophet Muhammad is the last prophet, no other prophets will walk the earth until the apocalypse. So there will be no more revelation.
This becomes a bit of an issue you see as it gets a bit circular kind of like how when Christians and Jews say their own texts and the final ones.
>2. The Caliph is a political leader, not a religious leader.
Didnt Uthman create canonization and determined which were original and which were corruptions?

>3. I'm not actually sure if this is possible in the first place, if we're talking about the space of all possible languages, grammar is incredibly vague. Not to say that God wouldn't be able to make such a word, but even if he did, we probably wouldn't be able to verify it in a convincing way.
Well if it can be done for Arabic as people like >>11138298 argue why could it not be done for other languages?

>>11137636
Long time ago, I did a very long list of recs. I saved and I shall post it now for you all

Online Quran
https://quran.com/

Sunni cannon hadith collections:
Sahih Al-Bukhari by al-Bukhari
Online https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/
Sahih Muslim by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj
Sunan ibn Majah by Ibn Majah
Sunan Abu Dawub by Abu Dawood
Sunan Al-Tirmidhi by Al-Tirmidhi
Sunan al-Sughra by Al-Nasa'i
These are the major 6 collections for majority of sunni schoolars. Here is a wikipedia link for a list of sunni books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books
I am also posting the link for a public domain of the Sahih al-Bukhari with the original in arabic and the english translation, here it goes. A read a little bit in this link: https://archive.org/details/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic

Now, the Shia books.
The Four Books, are as they follow.
Kitab al-Kafi by Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni al-Razi
Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih by Muhammad ibn Babawayh
Tahdhib al-Ahkam by Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
Al-Istibsar by Shaykh Muhammad Tusi
Here is a wikipedia link for a list of shia books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Shia_books

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna
Averroes with was also a philosopher
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes
Rumi with was a great poet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
Hafez, another great poet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez
Kahlil Gibran with is a more modern lebanese writer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahlil_Gibran

You guys should search for the Mutazzilla vs Asharia question with was a major topic in the Islamic Golden Age days. Majority of muslim theology topics and schools in some way are related to this topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%CA%BFtazila
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash%CA%BFari

People also need to check the parts dealing with islam in the UNESCO collection of General African History. Is a massive collection of thousand of pages dealing with african history and it's metodology. It's nice to read it. There are abridged versions too, tho I will give the link for the full texts. Here is the link. http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-and-human-sciences/themes/general-history-of-africa/volumes/

Finaly, a official online Quran, with text in Arabic, translated and a option for recitacion, so you can hear how it sounds in arabic.
https://quran.com/

I hope this helps people who have the guts to read online to have a starter point in learning about islam and arabic culture in general.
Allahu Akbar brother and sisters of /lit/, I hope you guys find as much joy in learning about this as I find.
Good reads and searchs for you all!

>>11138719
What books would you recommend for people trying to establish the existence of a God fullstop and the faults of a materialistic (not consumerisitic) understanding of reality - essentially books to open one up to religion before deciding on the religion.

>>11138714
>Didnt Uthman create canonization and determined which were original and which were corruptions?
The reason he was able to canonize the Qu'ran was because he was a companion of the prophet to begin with, and had the Qu'ran memorized directly from the prophet's mouth, and obviously he wasn't the only one either. Since he had the leader role amongst the people who could make that decision (other companions), he did so. Those were special circumstances, and the people involved had special statuses. Being caliph alone isn't enough to do that.

>Well if it can be done for Arabic...
I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here

since you said trad

ON JIHAD AND HOLY WAR Julius Evola (Revolt against the modern world, pages 118-120)

In the Islamic tradition a distinction is made between two holy wars, the “greater holy war” (el-jihadul-akbar) and the “lesser holy war” (el-jihadul-ashgar). This distinction originated from a saying (hadith) of the Prophet, who on the way back from a military expedition said: “You have returned from a lesser holy war to a great holy war.” The greater holy war is of an inner and spiritual nature; the other is the material war waged externally against an enemy population with the particular intent of bringing “infidel” populations under the rule of “God’s Law” (al-Islam). The relationship between the “greater” and “lesser holy war”, however, mirrors the relationship between the soul and the body; in order to understand the heroic asceticism or “path of action”, it is necessary to understand the situation in which the two paths merge, the “lesser holy war” becoming the means through which a “greater holy war” is carried out, and vice versa: the “little holy war”, or the external one, becomes almost a ritual action that expresses and gives witness to the reality of the first. Originally, orthodox Islam conceived of a unitary form of asceticism: that which is connected to the jihad or “holy war”.

The “greater holy war” is man’s struggle against the enemies he carries within. More exactly, it is the struggle of man’s higher principle against everything that is merely human in him, against his inferior natur and against chaotic impulses and all sorts of material attachments. This is expressly outlined in a text of Aryan warrior wisdom: “Know Him therefore who is above reason; and let his peace give thee peace. Be a warrior and kill desire, the powerful enemy of the soul.” (Bhagavadgita 3.43)

/

Also found khalil gibran.

>>11138750
Do Muslim's have a simimlar way for determining which of the books the Christians call the Old and New Testatments are valid?

>I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here
Well if we are able to determine that the Quran is a work of God from analysis of the text alone in one language then there does not seem to be a reason why such analysis in another language could not also allow one to come to a similar determination.

>>11138724
This I can't say exactly, because my interest in arabic culture and islam is less religious and more of curiosity and some sympathy.
But I would recommend to read the Bible and the Quran.
They can make you interested in God in general

>>11138160
WE

This thread went much better than I expected when I opened it.
Good job friends.

>>11137725
>proceeds to stone his wife by court order

>>11137636
Islam is the true religion. There have been no actual arguments which can deny this.

The greatest gift in our lives is that we have been guided to be Muslims.

If you aren't muslim yet you are wasting your life.

The Quran is an indescribably amazing book. If only people were to read it and deliberate on its message and meaning, they would know that any argument against Islam was throughly squashed.

Also Shiite islam is not islam and is basically a false version,because they believe that Ali Bin Abi Talib should have been the first caliph instead of Abu-Bakr. That Mohammed (PBUH) specified Ali in particular to be the first caliph (He didn't.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr6bwmig2X8 Here are some shiite "muslims" in their ritual calling out the name of Ali's son (Hussayn). This doesn't look like Islam to me.

Happy Ramadan.

>>11138770
The Quran is in Arabic for a specific reason.

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to Quraysh.

Quraysh were intensely involved with the Arabic language,they had entire markets devoted to judging poetry.

>Souk Okaz was especially important for poetry competitions, which served to formalize rules of Arabic language grammar and syntax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souk_Okaz

And so, Allah made the Quran in Arabic so as to challenge them and convince them to believe in it.

>Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful." Surah 13 (Hud) Ayah 11

In reality,the Quran could have been in any language. It all depended on the people to which Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) would have been sent to.

>>11138299
shut the fuck up PAGAN

>>11138691
Pretty much all important religions were created by shitskins. European indigenous religions are completely irrelevant.

>>11138714
>>11138714
>Mohammed wrote the Quran

>Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful." Surah 13 (Hud) Ayah 11

This challenge still stands. And besides, Mohammed (PBUH) literally couldn't have written the Quran. It has information which is impossible for a person living in the 7th century to know.

>How babies are made in their mothers womb
>The defeat of the Romans (inb4 he predicted it)
He couldn't have predicted it, because lets assume that in fact that he did predict it. What if he was wrong? Islamic army at the time wasn't big.
I am sure he wouldn't have taken that risk in being outed and the whole idea of Islam falling apart.

Other points in favor of Mohammed PBUH not writing the Quran

1.His hadiths aren't as eloquent or fluent as the Quran. The Quran's style,prose,fluency, and flow make it one of a kind and impossible to imitate by any human ESPECIALLY an illiterate one.

2.If the Quran was written by Mohammed PBUH,why would he claim to be a prophet? Why wouldn't he just outright say that he is god? Surely that would have been far easier than claiming to be a prophet and suffering immensely for years.

3.If the Quran was written by Mohammed PBUH, he would have been outed immediately as Quraysh were extremely well versed in Arabic, they would have made many copies of books similar to the Quran. Guess what? They couldn't and they didn't. If not Quraysh, he would have been outed by the many masters of the Arabic language that would follow in the coming years. Even after 1400 years, not one person could write something close to the Quran.

4.If the Quran was written Mohammed PBUH, he would immediately respond to anyone who brought up anything against him or Islam AND he could change any commands in any way he wanted and at any time.

For example: "We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram [Kabba]. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]." (qiblah is the direction you face during prayer)

Before this ayah came down, there were 2 qiblahs. One in Palestine (Masjd al aqsa) and one in Mecca (The Kabba). Moahmmed PBUH liked to pray towards the Kabba instead of Al aqsa. And Mohammed PBUH kept switching. This went on for over 16 months. If he was in control of authoring the Quran, why didn't he just change it immediately? Especially seeing as this is a minor thing and no one would have called him out on it.

Another example: Aisha was accused of adultery when she was arrived back home late from a siege (she had come with another man and not the main party while traveling, she was caught up in finding a necklace that she had lost in camp.)

So the Prophet PBUH and his faithful wife faced many hurtful accusations >cont

>>11139769
>>>CONTINUED
So the Prophet PBUH and his faithful wife faced many hurtful accusations and rumors against him. This went on for over a month until the Quran came and exonerated Aisha from these accusations.

If Mohammed PBUH had written the Quran, Why wouldn't he immediately exonerate himself and his wife?

5.The Prophet PBUH is reproached many times in the Quran.

>May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and you knew [who were] the liars. surah 9: ayah 43

>It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. surah 8 : ayah 67

>The entirety of surah 80


That's all folks

Ramadan Kareem

>tfw Muslims here are obnoxious arab supremacists and xenophobes

Why do I have to become a practical arab in order to be a good muslim?

>>11140599
You don't.

Guénon mentions in one of his letters:
>Furthermore, since it has been passed down that some sorcerers succeeded in sickening the Prophet himself, I don’t even see who could boast of being secure from their attacks.

Are there some hadith accounts of Muhammed being injured by sorcerers or what is Guénon referring to?

>>11140599

>>11140599
>Muslims here are obnoxious arab supremacists and xenophobes

I haven't seen anything like that in this thread?

>>11140624
Yes actually, a Jewish sorcerer made him sick

His name was Labid bin Al-A'asm

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: A spell was put on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until he imagined that he had done a thing when he had not done it. One day he made du’aa’ then he said: “Do you know that Allaah has shown me in what lies my cure? Two men came to me and one of them sat at my head and the other at my feet. One of them said to the other, ‘What is ailing the man?’ He said: ‘He has been bewitched.’ He said: “Who has bewitched him?’ He said: ‘Labeed ibn al-A’sam.’ He said, ‘With what?’ He said: ‘With a comb, the hair that is stuck to it, and the skin of pollen of a male date palm. He said: ‘Where is it?’ He said, ‘In the well of Dharwaan.’” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to the well, then he came back and said to ‘Aa’ishah when he came back: “Its date palms are like the heads of devils.” I said: “Did you take it out?” He said: “No. Allaah has healed me, and I feared that that might bring evil upon the people.” Then the well was filled in.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3268; Muslim, 2189.

Nice thread
I remember there was a branch of Islam that had a more mystic take on the religion, the guy would pin around or something. If anyone can remember what it was called I would appreciate it
Also is there any reading on Ahmadiyya, that’s what my friend calls his branch of Islam

>>11140734
Are you talking about the Sufi whirling dervishes?

>>11138719
Comfy Theology Anon

>>11139214
The absolute state of Islamic discourse that a dungeon forum for basket weaking has more discussion than any Islamic mainstream debates today

>House of Wisdom 2.0 when?

>>11139769
Well we actually can't verify the Hadiths with the same veracity as the Quran because the Mullahs will not let go of
>Muh science of the hadith

The equation of Hadith as synonymous with the Sunnah mentioned in the Quran in the hope of abrogating understanding of the Quran to a selection of Mullahs and a Persian Bukhari is the single most regressive element of Islamic discourse

Reminder
>First ever collection of Hadith compiled in around 85 years after PBUH death explicityly asked for future scholars to revise or discard methodology
>Hadiths were understandably banned by Hazrat Umar Farooq Caliph

If the Quran is light, why defer to a collection of oral histories that fall apart on analysis and contradiction and resemble a propaganda campaign during a series of civil wars

>>11140599
Only if your're a khaliji
and they all actually want to be Lebanese
Which is hilarious

>>11140734
Sufi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSgBNynIu_M

>>11140712
>puts Jew in position of arbitrary evil
>this has nothing to do with internecine ethnic rivalry

>>11142118
khaliji?

>>11142237
Term for Saudi/Emirati region

>>11142256
oh
I've lived there and I've never heard that used before, weird.
Where is it normally used and what does it translate to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaleeji
>>11142259

>>11142310
oh, we just called them gulfies lol
looks like the same thing

>>11137974
>>11137981
lurking

>>11137725
>A proper shari'a government does not interfere much with people's lives
You're a fucking retard if you believe that.
People who go around saying stuff like that truly deserve to live under shari'a law.
عيل متناك يلعن كس امك

>>11142333
I'm going to be home soon and I'll check if it uploded properly

>>11137662
Well Hossein Nasr is hardcore shite

>>11137812
Well it's not unrelated if the answer to the second one is that a theocratic dictatorship is inherently desirable.

>Muslim on /his/ the other day pretended that Islam peacefully converted other nations under the Islamic Conquest and assured me that there were no forced conversion or executions of pagans

Soooo... was he an idiot or was he just practicing his Taqiya skills. Pretty sure he forgot about the Arab Slave Trade and what happened to non-muslims who refused to pay Jizya and how Jizya was often payed in the slavery of family members? Not only did claim that Islam never forced itself upon other cultures he said that Islam in the 21st century is the most radical Islam has ever been.

So is this just what actual Muslims believe?

>>11142435
Well, Islamic fundamentalism is a unique phenomenon: fundamentalism assumes modernity.
Islam did spread by the sword but most "nations" after fighting Muslims, eventually willingly became Muslims and that's how the "body politic" changed faith. Look up Turks, Persians, or North Africans for example.
Also Muslims started being less tolerant (in matters of sexuality for example) after being introduced to the Enlightenment, sooo...

>>11142388
>>11142333
>>11137981
>>11137974
>>11137832
>>11137823
ok it successfully uploded to google drive but how do i share it with you guys

>>11142486
>willingly became Muslims
Yes and I'm sure decades of threatening to being sold into slavery under Islamic rule in no way coerced populations to convert to Islam. I mean nah. Impossible!

>>11142486
>Well, Islamic fundamentalism is a unique phenomenon: fundamentalism assumes modernity.
Umm... "No"

>>11142497
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lpjoIxRnP_D1i0lHL5yHUhK9dEY-p96v

try and see if it works

>>11142502
Yes, moron.
Read Michael Cook's book on Ancient religions, modern politics.
He is no favourable historian, being a student of the well-known Jew Bernard Lewis. In it he explains fundamentalism was a word coined by Americans in the 1920s who felt the religion's source was being ignored and had some conference thing.
Based on this he develops a concept of fundamentalism and analyses how this concept, i.e. fundamentalism, can be found in 20th century Islam.
He does at some point say Islam in essence easily lends itself to fundamentalism but in any case fundamentalism is a modern movement. It is a reaction to modernity (think of the term 'reactionary' or neo-reactionary, or yeah.)
You guys are so lucky I keep explaining myself to you:)))

>>11142500
Nice dubs but by willingly I didn't mean those already living under Islamic rule, I mean whole societies being transformed because their ruler converts.
Like Armenia is he first Christian nation in history, not because they were conquered, or because the religion was spread through 'grass-roots movements' but because the ruler converted. Honestly, I'd argue same with Rome but one could say the rulers converted -because- the population was converting rapidly.

>>11142504
anyone? can you let me know if it works?

if it does, start with the videos in the folder titled "foundation" then move on to weeks 1-20. I haven't looked much at the rest yet but its mainly supplementary stuff i think

>>11142532
>Well your definition of fundamentalism
Which is something I wasn't discussng I was talking about extremism which is not a synonym for fundamentalism
>Is incorrect because fundamentalism was a term that originated in the 20th century according to Michael Cook
Well times change and definitions of words change but it's pointless to talk about first of all

>>11142538
>Nice dubs but by willingly I didn't mean those already living under Islamic rule
Nice shifting of the goal posts. Reminder that the original topic was whether or not Islam forcibly converted people en masse - it did. Making a semantical argument about how no """"""nations"""""" were converted is brainlet tier.

Give me one example of a nation (a modern nation, as defined by Weber) willingly converting to Islam

>>11142581
If you want to understand how a term developed, what it means, first of all is not irrelevant.
Also less than 100 years is not much.
You are right to say extremism (you actually used the word radical but whatever) is not identical to fundamentalism, but please take into account the claim that Islam is more radical than ever, and the claim (made not just by me or Cook) that this radicalism is often linked to fundamentalist reactionary discourse, which is by nature a modern phenomenon.
Feel free to think what you will about it but I doubt you have much more to say than
>"no"
>"b-but wtv"

>>11142592
>making me google how Weber defined nationhood
>he only defined ethnic groups
I already mentioned Turks, but South East Asia is the oft cited example. I don't care to argue it didn't spread by the sword. I'm just saying its a lot more complex than that and in any case one should be thankful to be introduced to the one true faith.

>>11142612
>Post Ottaman Empire Islam is the most radical it's ever been
Absolutely not , maybe on an internally Islamic level within the society itslef but I mean an objectively historical level.

>>11142637
>He only definded ethnic groups
Bruh his definition of the nation state was extremely fundamental plz read into him

>Turkey willingly converted to Islam
>Willingly
This had better be b8

>>11142673
Turkey did willingly convert and not as Turkey. Please look into this.
Also you can't be objectively radical. You can be radical relative to a given standard.

>>11142637
Also, how tf can we meanjngfully talk about conversions en masse (an ancient phenomenon) through the fucking nation state. The nation state is not a nation, it is a state that defines itself through nationality. 19th and 20th centuries were mot eras of conversion, no wonder you think Turks lived in Turkey prior to 10th century (or maybe you though Turks converted to Islam during the late Ottoman period? Fag.)

>>11142681
>You can be radical relative to a given standard.
Which I gave as historical and globally based standard?
>Turkey did willingly convert but not as Turkey
Wat, do you mean that *Turks* willingly converted? They did ,but Turks are not Turkey

>>11142690
>conversions en masse (an ancient phenomenon)
No
>Through the nation state
You're the one who brought it up ffs
>I said that Turks existed on Anatolia prior to the 10th centruy
Rightful Greek clay t b h

>>11142694
Ok so globally based standard is what? When was Islamic civilizations more radical, ethically reprehensible, inhumane and so on ad inf. in relation to a historical, globally based (lol do you realise what this implies) standard?

>>11138148
He did not invent algorithms. Also why do you seem think his algebra has anything to with Islam?

>>11142708
>When was Islamic civilizations more radical, ethically reprehensible, inhumane and so on ad inf. in relation to a historical, globally based (lol do you realise what this implies) standard?
Probably when Jizya and Slavery was implemented en masse or when Islamists were conquering in the name of Islam all across Northern Africa and the Middle East?

>>11142782
How is this different to Hellenization of the Mid-East, and Central-Southern Asia by Alexander?
Did he not tax them?
Most agree that Muslims did not only conquer North Africa and Middle East because the Persian and East Roman Empires were weak but also because people were dissatisfied with their rulers.
This was the 'norm' not 'radicalism'.

>>11142504
>>11142545
yeah, it works.
Jazakallah Khair!

>>11142715
>He did not invent
>algorithms
It's codification is literally named after him for a reason and it's not sheer vanity.

>Also why do you seem think his algebra has anything to with Islam?

Why do you seem to think it has nothing to do with Islam considering the fact that he was a Muslim living in an Islamic era?

>>11142504
Works but Foundation Lesson 1 doesn't.
Other videos so far are good

Well done.
Should be in a sticky for learning

>>11142837
No it was to honor him and his work because he was a good mathematician. If you knew anything about mathematics you would know that algorithms predate Islam by hundreds of years.

Most great mathematicians have been Christian and I don't think Christianity had anything to do with it.

>>11142793
Hmm I don't remember Alexander enslaving people for not following a natural change in cultures? They were not taxed for being of a different religion either , they were just taxed for the purpose of the state not for breaking the religious hegemony of certain areas

>Most agree
"No"

>This was the norm
And the norm centuries ago was radical by historical standards when we live in the contemporary?

>>11142846
>>11142818
Lesson 1 is just an intro to the course, you aren't missing anything important. Let me know if there are any other issues
>>11142818
wa iyyak

>>11142076
>Hadiths were understandably banned by Hazrat Umar Farooq Caliph

This is not true.

He said to prioritize memorizing the Quran over teaching ahadith.

The only reason he didn’t want to write as well as compile Hadith Books is because he didn’t want people to concentrate on the Hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) more and forget about the Quran. But he never forbade people from writing them. He himself didn’t prefer it. There is not one Authentic Hadith in any book where he forbade people from writing Hadith down.

>First ever collection of Hadith compiled in around 85 years after PBUH death explicityly asked for future scholars to revise or discard methodology

Yes, the first compilation of ahadiths was after the prophet's death PBUH.

This doesn't mean there wasn't any writing done IN HIS TIME,there was writing but it wasn't compiled. People preferred to intensely memorize because most weren't literate.

Why wasn't it compiled?

Same reason Umar discouraged (not forbade, very different words) spreading hadith;it would have been mixed up with the Quran.

>But memory alone isn't good enough!

Bukahri's methodology for discerning which ahadith were sound (saheeh) and which were not was very strict.

He imposed conditions which all narrators and testifiers in the hadith chain must have met before a hadith was included in his book:
1. All narrators in the chain must be just (known to be truth tellers and honest people).
2. All narrators in the chain must possess STRONG MEMORY and all the Muhadditheen who possess great knowledge of ahadith must AGREE upon the narrators' ability to learn and memorize, along with their reporting techniques.
3. The chain must be complete without any missing narrators.
4. It must be known that consecutive narrators in the chain met each other

If one hadith didn't meet these criteria it wasn't accepted into his book
>fall apart on analysis and contradiction and resemble a propaganda campaign during a series of civil wars
Such as?

>>11143235
You're wasting your time arguing with this guy, he clearly isn't educated on the subject yet he sets himself up as an authority. At the minimum, he might consider watching the lectures posted by OP.

For those who want the briefest possible overview of what Muslims believe here is a credal statement that has historically been accepted by the majority of Sunni Muslims:
http://www.afghanicc.com/books/TheCreedofImamTahawi-4thSpecialEdition.pdf

YA ALI MADAD

>>11143299
lol