/lit/ - Literature

>i really really hate racists
>so im gonna make everything about race
>i am not racist

>>11110606
The irony of this situation is that they're only spoiling their own litarary cultures. Following the Harlem renaissance there arose a lot of legitimately good black writers like Langston Hughes and James Baldwin who read the white canon and strived to produce work in its tradition.
Now potential minority writers are handed a politicized list of mediocrities, they're not writing to try compete against Shakespeare or Coleridge all they're competing for is their guaranteed little special class and its no wonder its just been producing absolute trash

>>11110606
I like how he acts like he is a revolutionary for minority voices, yet he refused to persist in his attempt to write a thesis on Vietnamese American literature. If it was so important to you, why did you cave? The only reason he gives for not writing it is because his advisor said it would hurt job prospects. Not that he wouldn't allow it. Like holy shit.

>>11110606
The central thesis that the canon should expand to encompass new, non-Western writers is right, but these people can't go two sentences without obnoxious ideological sloganeering and anti-white resentment.

>Still, this was not an easy path. As a scholar of Chicano literature told me with a note of anger in his voice: “We have to read their literature, but they don’t have to read ours.”
Reminder that Marquez, Bolaño, Borges, and Cortázar are basically canonized. These people want a curriculum that pushes their postcolonial anti-American narrative, not a curriculum that represents diverse viewpoints.

>>11110732
If you push him he'll just blame white people

>>11110763
>he central thesis that the canon should expand to encompass new, non-Western writers is right

No it is not. The canon will only ever contain works that are of the peak of worth. If minorities want to be part of the canon they need to actually write shit people don't have to be forced to read

>>11110763
>>Still, this was not an easy path. As a scholar of Chicano literature told me with a note of anger in his voice: “We have to read their literature, but they don’t have to read ours.”
Do you think it was Junot Diaz?

>>11110763
>Marquez, Bolaño, Borges, and Cortázar or any other Latin Americans are "non-Western"

>>11110606
>foreigners
aren't most canon writers foreign? dante wasn't from Paterson

>>11110812
I'm guessing it refers to the American school curriculum.

>>11110776
The thing is that minorities are absolutely writing things of great literary worth, and many of those works are being or will be canonized. Mishima, Dazai, Bolaño, Morrison, Mahfouz, etc. And diversity can be defended from an aesthetic perspective, not necessarily just a political one. People from non-Western countries will produce works that are, in subtle ways, distinct from those produced by Western countries. And those differences often elicit interest.

>>11110763
Frantz Fanon is a fantastic anticolonialist within the upper realms of western tradition. Anticolonialism is a western development.

>>11110810
Latin America doesn't count
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

>>11110824
That's what I was referring to as well. Most of my high school classes were English (country) and Greek/Italian literature, not American.

>>11110831
>Mishima, Dazai, Bolaño

To be clear these are not minorities. Bolano is a white European and these people have no interest in promoting the work of groups like the Japanese who are honorary whites to them. Nor are they interested in Arabs as I have never once witnessed them having a literacy in the history of Middle Eastern literature (probably because it can often get very ugly to their beautified imagination of Islam)

They just care about groups who are obviously intellectually deficient like niggers and women.

>>11110840
So, the West is just the Anglo-Sphere and their NATO puppets?

>>11110840
It absolutely is to anyone with a fucking brain.
White Christian is the West, end of story

>>11110839
Yeah, but if your criteria for canonization is adhering to a very narrow and specific ideological prism, then you're going to end up with a lot of boring, parochial shit in the curriculum.

>>11110862
Persian should be considered as, if not more important, than italian as a literary language.

>>11110862
>groups who are obviously intellectually deficient like niggers and women.
Fucking this. Praise Lord Kek

>>11110862
>To be clear these minorities are not minorities.
woah-

>>11110872
Absolutely and that is what is happening in literature. Mass publication and academic appreciation should be shunned. We need to start writing poems for other aesthetes and drinking whiskey together in honor of the full moon. Divest.

>>11110881
>praises kek
>gets singles
Every time

>>11110895
Well, none of them were minorities in the societies that they lived in and thus their writing has a different character than "minority" writing.

>>11110895
Every single one of the highlighted names were part of the majority in their respected countries

>>11110862
Pic sort of related

>>11110871
Whatever, terms like that are determined by usage more than anything else, and no one thinks of Bolivia when they refer to Western civilization.

>>11110926
Yeah two thousand years of usage you absolute fucking moron. No shit people don't consider a non-white country Western

>>11110933
But they do think of Argentina

>>11110606
Themes discussed in literature by male whites:
>mortality
>individual vs society
>existential despair
>loyalty for state vs family
>meaninglessness of the universe
>man vs nature
>religion or atheism

Themes discussed in literature by male POC:
>MUH COMPLEXION

Themes discussed in literature by female whites:
>MUH VAGINA
>tfw I crave Chad's cock

Themes discussed in literature by female POC:
>MUH COMPLEXION
>MUH VAGINA
>tfw I crave Tyrone's cock

>>11110606
Now you boys behave. This isn't pol, if you are going to be here, you need to be on your best behavior.

>>11110937
meant for >>11110926
I'll further elaborate on my point also. The reason that Bolivia or Paraguay are non-Western is the large extent to which them being majority Native has influenced their culture.

>>11110933
Calm down dude. I'm agreeing with you

>>11110940
t. has never read any quality literature by blacks or women or black women. It does exist. Your fucking identity politics are just as shabby as the rest.

>>11110943
Shut up kike

>>11110951
>quality literature by blacks
Yes. That exists.
>quality literature by women
Yes. That exists.
>quality literature by black women
Nope. all shit. prove me wrong, please.

>>11110606
I read a book called A nectar in a Sieve and i thought it was pretty good
It was about a woman in india, I recommend it
Point is not all books made by people who aren't white are about not being white

>>11110951
> It does exist.

If it ever does its when they just parrot works made by white men.

>>11110965
Upper caste indians are basically white. Prime example Arundhati Roy is literally a descendent of Christian Syrians

>>11110763
And who will determine who will get into the "Canon of Humanity"? I don't think it will be Bloom but some ideologue who will project her political compass on everything she reads

>>11110966
>when they parrot works by white men
This is pretty much the canon my friend. It is a lot of repost.

>>11110862
Bolaño's not white. He's castizo, same as me. And what these people want isn't just non-white literature, but a sort of literature produced in America that's working outside of the hegemonic American literary tradition throwing stones at it. They want literature that they think is culturally transgressive, not necessarily diverse or interesting.

>>11110983
Not really

>>11110963
It is harder than i thought.

>>11110763
>lists non-Chicano writers in response to the non-reading of Chicano writers.

>>11110986
>Bolaño's not white. He's castizo

lel what because his grand-grandfather fucked a mestizo or something? He might look a bit Jewy but he'd blend in anywhere in Europe

>>11110990
No seriously, the canon is a preservation of a certain cultural which is why the big themes come up again and again
As i said earlier i believe people should form artistic enclaves and commit to preserving pure aesthetic beauty and the highest noble impulses they can. Mass media and academia are a total loss and continuing to engage even negatively only empowers them. Make them want to be a part of us. And refuse of course.

>>11110986
Either, Castizo = White or White Americans and Boers are also non-White. Castizo = White.

>>11110998
"Ours" in that context meant non-white, not just chicano. The "ours" referred to the Asian guy's work too.

>>11111003
I disagree entirely, what you're looking for is petty Judaic tribalism, I believe everyone should read the smartest and most brilliant writers regardless of what race they are or which race the reader is. This means reading 99% white male writers

>>11111020
>petty judaic tribalism
>except jewish people are hugely influential on who gets published and also in academia
Whatever, collectivist trash like yourself are not invited anyway.

>>11110951
Ok, then name some quality literature by blacks or women or black women. Prove what you say, faggot.

>>11111039
>>petty judaic tribalism
>>except jewish people are hugely influential on who gets published and also in academia

Why are you talking as if these two in any way contradict?

>>11110871
>White
...So not South America?

>>11111041
>wants to converse but calls someone a faggot
This is why you don't have friends.

>>11111063
Friends are for women

>>11111047
Why would forming an elite seperate from judaized academia constitute judaic tribalism? Elitism is a good thing. You do not have to be a part of a mass movement.

>>11111074
>women
>friendship
Haha

>>11111078
Exactly

>>11110940
That's really reductionist. Holy shit anon, have you actually read anything by women?

>>11111075
If the """elite""" is just promoting its own because of arbitrary shared background rather than innate talent then yes
Genuine elites are good, identity lobbies are not

Fences is pretty good
It's similar to death of a salesman in a way though. It doesn't even talk about race if I remember

>>11111063
>failed to provide examples
>thinks he can disregard it because I called him names on fucking 4chan
Provide examples or admit that you lost.

new death grips is fucking shit

>>11111095
It wouldnt matter if "promotion" wasnt considered at all.

>>11111106
Then what else would the group be doing?

This thread and board are hopeless. /pol/ will end up consuming it and all we'll se is discussions of white male authors. What's sad is that you think that minorities are out to do some sort of "takeover" and erase white culture, but it's not how it is. You are so afraid of examining your own flawed point of view, you throw aside any meaningful criticism of your perfect little bubble. I almost wish minorites would just stop trying to prove themselves so you can just be on your own and rot in your self propagated ignorance.

Meanwhile millions of other people will read and enjoy literature from both white and poc writers. Masterpieces, even if lost to obscurity and repression, are still masterpieces. Get fucked, assholes.

>>11111090
Provide some examples of female literature that can't be reduced to that which I've stated. I'm genuinely interested and I'm not being ironic.

>>11111126
>/pol/ will end up consuming it and all we'll se is discussions of white male authors.

And nothing of value will be lost

>>11111054
Most of South America is White. La Raza Cosmico is a meme created for the purpose of uniting Mexican nationalist factions in the early 20th century.

>The Western Canon contains a chain of authors who read each other's works, thought upon them, and commented on them.

>Let's "enhance" it by adding authors that were not read by those who came after.

How does this even make sense?

>>11111126
There are tons of valuable works written by artists like Shakespeare and every second spent reading something that doesn't fall into this category when you haven't read everything in it already is a second that is essentially wasted

>>11110998
He wasn't referring exclusively to Chicano writers

>>11111126
Dumbass

>>11111126
>you throw aside any meaningful criticism of your perfect little bubble.
Not true. Women label any criticism of their sex as "misogyny". Same with blacks and "racism." It's you that can't take criticism.

>Get fucked, assholes.
The feeling's mutual, worthless imbecile. This is why everyone talks behind your back.

>>11111126
Have you ever read the fucking thread, brainlet? There's been a good amount of nuanced discussion in it.

>>11111110
Writing.

>>11111144
Yeah man, that's just not nearly correct. Literally no demography work supports a white-majority South America. Even in places with larger white populations- Argentina and Uruguay- there is still significant traces of native blood as well as non-white immigrants.
Daily reminder there's literally nothing wrong about being non-white

>>11111161
Pretty sure only individuals can do that friend

>>11111164
Argentina is over 90% White and Uruguay is 88% White.

>>11111167
I am picturing something like Renga. Or maybe correspondent novels. Idk, i would like to see a post mass media literature. Writing should not be done for money.

>>11111126
Try reading the thread before posting something this dumb

>>11111130
LeGuinn
Rand
Eliot
Austen
Woolf
Tracy K. Smith
Sei Shonagon

>>11111175
>Self reporting
Come on dude...

>>11111181
Whatever, still whiter than Britain

>>11110606
'non western' writers aren't evaluated in their own terms but in relation to this strawman white anglo western big other. Millenarian Chinese and Indian literary and philosophical traditions are pretty much ignored in favour of contemporary american bureaucratic identity categories. Latin American writers don't see themselves as marginalised people of color whose existence is defined by their exclusion from 'western civilization', instead they draw upon centuries of local history and literature as well as from European ones, particularly Spanish and French literature.

>>11111194
True LMAO

>>11111164
Nobody ever said that being non-White is a problem. The problem is that you're trying to erase the Whiteness of South American people in order to separate them from the Western tradition so that you can use them as token minorities to push for decolonization policies that result in the curriculum being filled with genuinely terrible POC writers who have no business being taught.

>>11111181
>These statistics don't fit my narrative therefore they must be flawed

>>11111197
i love it
>they evaluate us against their traditions
>idiots
>we evaluate people based on our traiditions
>non-white is right

>>11111208
he is correct in the sense that those countries have massive inferiority complexes and their people likely compensate by overreporting euro ancestry

>>11111180
>Austen
>Woolf

Are you kidding me

>>11110763
>encompass new, non-Western writers is right, but these people can't go two sentences without obnoxious
>the western canon should include non western writing

>>11111180
>second name is Rand

The absolute state of women

>>11111126
>This thread and board are hopeful. /pol/ will end up consuming it and all we'll see is discussions of white male authors.
>Meanwhile millions of other people will read and enjoy literature from both white and poc writers, even if lost to obscurity.
Thanks, gentlemen.

>>11111180
>Austen
literally just tfw I crave Chad's cock

>Woolf
literally just "being a womyn sucks. Muh VAGINA, amirite gals?"

You could have cited O'Connor. That's about the only female writer I respect, but then again, she writes just like a man would.

What are the books they want added to the cannon?

>>11111202
I'm not erasing anything. Most SA literature has been written by their white upperclass. I'm purely responding to the idea that the continent is somehow "mostly white"- it irrefutably isn't.

>>11111223
Sure but all the Argentinians and Uruguaiaiaians I met (in Eurolands, admittedly they were like 10 in total) were blonde and blue eyed. Also 1 Chilean who was blonde. I am a Turk-rab so I am pure yuropean.

>>11111126
I like some other cultures and peoples. Some other peoples do nothing of worth.
Besides the OP is talking about "immigrants, foreigners, minorities" which is obviously about a take over of a well established place, trial takeover that you seem to deny. He's not aiming for the Chinese four classics, Rumi or the Hagakure, which have been accessible and appreciated for centuries in the west.
>so you can just be on your own
Oh my God, the torture. Now that would really be too horrible, wouldn't it? How could we possibly ever suffer through this.

>>11111223
This. The Latin American intelligentsia suffers from internalised whiteness so bad, they really need to decolonize their minds and learn from woke diaspora latinx and socially conscious white american academics.

>>11111235
Globalization is slowly turning what was the Western canon into a single world literary canon. Everyone knows this.

>>11110763
>The central thesis that the canon should expand to encompass new, non-Western writers is right
Why call it Western Canon then?

>>11111208
Probably talking to an American. Burgers see a massive influx of Southern Mexicans, Guatemalans and people from El Salvador.
It's natural for them to imagine all of South America to be Aztec territory, not really making distinctions between all these internationally irrelevant countries (combine that with their proverbial geographical scholarship).

Can we just admit that even white writers are writing poorly and there will not be anything worth adding to the canon for a few generations if ever again? Name some worthwhile white men authors from this decade please i will wait. This whole thread reeks of marketplace flies

>>11111215
Americans have lost the ability to understand theirs or anyone else's traditions for that matter. literature has degenerated into a purely bureaucratic administrative affair, a question of making sure the right categories are all properly 'represented'. The meta-philosophy of representation and implicit biases is totalising in its own way.

>>11111268
Why should this be embraced?

>>11111250
The only countries that don't have massive White population blocs are Peru and Bolivia. Even the non-White countries like Brazil and Venezuela have White populations of over 45%. South American Whites are not a tiny minority.

>>11111254
You can't fault the Walt!

>>11111268
>Globalization is slowly turning what was the Western canon into a single world literary canon

No it isn't. People are just realizing the rest of the world produced so little of worth that they're jumping ship to the superior canon

I wonder why Machado de Assis isn't more hyped by this kind of people who are always wanting for some non-white, non-Western literary genius.

He was a black Brazilian in XIXth century Rio de Janeiro writing high literature influenced by Shakespeare and the Greeks. My guess about why he wasn't appropriated by the woke crowd is this >>11110986

They don't want merely non-white, non-Western authors. They want authors who are actively opposed to white people and Western civilization. Machado de Assis was black and Latin American, but he admired white culture and assimilated into it, so he doesn't work for SJW purposes.

>>11111306
The problem is that these numbers you've come up with are untrue. They're just straight up wrong.

>>11111306
White is a very blurry term in Latin America.

ARGENTINAAA IS WWWHIIIIIIIIIIIITTEEE

>>11111319
They are what the statistics of those countries say.

Anyone else find it hilarious how low the bar is set for minorities in literature?

>>11111325
Or more likely that you guys want to restrict "White" to this very tiny group of Northern and Western Europeans so that you can more easily advocate against their interests.

>>11111316
SJW culture is not opposed to western liberal civilisation it represents the final phase of its hegemonic universalisation. If anything, it owes more to the leveling logic of Rawlsian egalitarianism and 'the veil of ignorance' combined with callout dynamics and social media, than to Marxism or post-structuralism.

>>11111338
This guy is on the pulse

>>11111338
You're right, but it does this by throwing in the garbage a lot of what was considering integral to Western civilization before liberal progressivists became dominant such as Christianity and Greco-Roman heritage.

An educated Western man from the early 20th century would feel like a foreigner in the current cultural landscape, where mass knowledge of Classics has been substituted by knowledge of the right pronouns you have to call transvestites.

>>11111316
>They want authors who are actively opposed to white people and Western civilization. Machado de Assis was black and Latin American, but he admired white culture and assimilated into it, so he doesn't work for SJW purposes.
This plays a big part, but there is also a taint of the most ridiculous provincialism among western would-be cosmopolitans. They are less concern about promoting, say, Iranian classics, and more the writings of some muslim immigrant in the west. Of course it goes hand in hand with them being opposed to white people or the west, but the subversion has to happen here.
If you asked them, they would PREFER a sudden literary master to appear as a Brown-American or a French (Algerian) rather than as a native Indonesian.

>>11111331
Self reporting cannot be used in South America due to inumerable sociological influences in play.

>>11111360
I'd say that mass knowledge of Classics has been more replaced with mass knowledge of shallow pop-culture.

>>11111368
You vastly overstate the dilemma

>>11111368
So, you're not going to accept any statistics on race that aren't backed up by DNA tests?

On race in Latin America, whites could only be considered a minority in the phenotypical sense and by the strict criteria of North America (where even many Southern Europeans wouldn't be considered white).

Culturally, white culture is dominant, and genetically too, even people who are phenotypically non-white have dominant white genes. Pic related, a Brazilian singer who did a DNA test and it was revealed that 67% of his genes are of European origin.

>>11110963
Hurston is unironically good, even if she is a bit entry-level. Far better than Morrison in my opinion.

>>11111411
Yeah in South America, race is far more complicated than the race autists of /pol/eddit try to make it.

>>11111338
>'the veil of ignorance'
Who thought this was ever a sane argument.
>dude forbidden knowledge lmao

>>11111268
Then it's not the western canon is it, it's the global cannon.
And it hasn't turned into anything, it's a whole different list.

>>11111411
This
>>11111387
I'm not going to take a self-reporting survey very seriously when an individual is free to list whatever they like.

>>11111456
>In the original position, the parties select principles that will determine the basic structure of the society they will live in. This choice is made from behind a veil of ignorance, which would deprive participants of information about their particular characteristics: his or her ethnicity, social status, gender

>and, crucially, Conception of the Good (an individual's idea of how to lead a good life). This forces participants to select principles impartially and rationally.

wouldn't this lead to total homogenisation and the imposition of a rigid normative conception of the Good disguised as liberal rationality?

You can't just wedge things into the canon. It arises organically out of what's considered great and influential by contemporary artists and critics. Affirmative Action Canon is canon by name only and will fail the test of time.

>>11111507
Do you also not trust statistics from, the US? The vast majority of individuals are likely to report honestly; they're not incentivized to report the wrong race by anything other than this imaginary notion of "internalized Whiteness". I think the reason that you're not respecting the data in these statistics is that it hurts your nordicist narrative.

>>11111336
No, in Latin America it refers to having light skin. A mulatto could be white to the majority there. Personally, I have a very broad definition but many Latin Americans who claim to be white are not and the genetics back it up.

>>11111360
>>11111374
We live in a culture of narcissists trapped within the bounds of their selves as defined by mass media and bureaucratic administrative dispositions, unable to understand the past or prepare for the future in any meaningful way. post war liberal humanism failed precisely because it was unable to form a coherent idea of humanity, either as a subject of negative freedom or a state of injury included only in terms of its supposed exclusion. This is by Fanon, one of the founders of post-colonial theory, by the way.

>>11111525
"Liberal" "rationality" has always been about rigid normative conception and homogenization with all differentiation interpreted as mere "diversity" cosmetics (gender, cultural heritage, biological traits in general).
The veil of ignorance argument is similar to designing an electrical grid purposefully ignoring the geography of the terrain, the structural materials available, commercial agreements, previous standards, preferences of the stakeholders (like favoring upfront costs or maintenance costs), ...

>it’s another thinly veiled thread about politics

>>11111622
>veiled
OP could have been posted on /pol/ and would have still be called a shitposting shill.

>>11111622
Its explicitly about the canon and the status about minority writers. Sorry if culture and politics are not seperable you insulated faggot

>>11111360
>You're right, but it does this by throwing in the garbage a lot of what was considering integral to Western civilization before liberal progressivists became dominant such as Christianity and Greco-Roman heritage.

or even Marxism, post structuralism and pre-woke pop culture. We live in an eternal present amongst the ruins of past civilizations and failed cybernetic utopias. The media class promotes a purely therapeutic ideal of culture as something that is just there to make you feel 'represented' as an equal individual in a global consumer society, numbing the pain and drudgery of everyday life,the past nothing but a bad dream to be forgotten as soon as possible, a conception which vibes perfectly well with the interests of Disney's stockholders. Think of the recent controversies RE: the character of Apu in the Simpsons. Aren't the Simpsons the product of a world that has been rendered obsolete due to changing economic and technological conditions?

>>11110986
BOLAÑO IS WHIIIIIIIITE

>>11111568
>Do you also not trust statistics from, the US?
Yes, obviously I am dismissive of self-reporting from the US for the exact same reasons
>nordicist narrative
Well that's fucking retarded because I'm not a nordicist, nor do I think race is some sort of be-all end-all human qualifier.

>>11111111

We were forced to read Things Fall Apart in highschool and I've hated niggers ever since. So I guess it does serve a greater good.

>I am a descendant of Caliban, the character who learned the master’s language, including how to curse in it. Still, my love for English, and the Western canon, runs deep. In college, as an English major, I read many of the Greek classics, Chaucer, Shakespeare, a good number of the Romantics and the Victorians, plus a considerable amount of American literature. I never thought of becoming a scholar of English. (How could I go home to my Vietnamese refugee parents, who worked 12- to 14-hour days in their grocery store, and say that I wanted to study Jane Austen or Lord Byron?) But I could enjoy the study of literature until I had to go to law school and begin a life of quiet desperation.
Good God what a fucking crybaby

>>11111919
>non-white identifies with Caliban
>blames Prospero
>we wuz Sycorax
Césaire and Senghor did the same thing. Of course they don't identify with Ariel.