/lit/ - Literature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_07JFLUoZ6Y

>becoming cognizant of the literature of the enemy
Good man. You all can learn something form this man. Have you read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals? He was not a feminist but it and his leninist/cultural marxist tactics have a causal relationship

I have a call in a few minutes, so I'm going to abandon this thread for 15-30 minutes. I'll be back after.

>>11078613
Thanks, I will check out
>>11078636
>Rules for Radicals
I haven't read it, but I've heard a lot about it. Thank you.

Okay, I'm back now.

>>11078586
the female eunuch by germaine greer is the standard text

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/01/no_self-respecting_woman_would.html

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/03/dont_hate_her_because_shes_suc.html

>>11078586
What they are feeling is obvious enough.The problem is they are not thinking.

>>11078586
Your gf most likely absorbed her feminism by the way of cultural osmosis and not by reading books. If this isn't the case, you should just ask her what to read.

Or you could read some sociology like Bourdieu and Erving Goffman which is far more interesting than basic bitch american feminism.

>>11078896
the first link reads like a very elaborate /r9k/ post
>I'm not saying you have to look good for men, I'm saying that if wearing makeup not for men makes you feel better about yourself, you don't have a strong self, and no, yelling won't change this

Mary Wollstonecraft

>>11078847
>>11078888
>>11078896
Have a (you) for contributing! Thank you!

>>11078907
>Your gf most likely absorbed her feminism by the way of cultural osmosis
From that and college. This doesn't solve my problem, though. I would love to throw up my hands and say
>She's just a basic bitch. Ain't got no time for this ish.
But fact of the matter is that she makes my life better in a way that smarter women haven't.

I've met women smarter than I am, more successful than I am, more career-oriented than I am. But as friends and girlfriends, they're just second-rate men. They're interesting and fun, but not quite as much as my guy friends.

On the other hand, I don't think my current girlfriend is as smart as me, but she's amazing at cultivating positive vibes. Her hobbies aren't all that interesting, but she loves and cares for my parents. She provides these things that the girl-next-door types didn't.

So sure, maybe my girlfriend isn't an intellectual powerhouse (though she's no idiot). I don't care. I need a smart, independent woman like a drowning man needs a glass of water.

>>11078896
these are written by a 110 iq faggot, can’t get through the second paragraph, such an insufferable smarmy cunt

>>11079061
Why is it important to talk about feminism at all? It's not like your opinion on feminism or her opinion on feminism will decide the fate of the world. Trying to cultivate an attitude of not caring about feminism might be a good step towards solving the problem.

>>11079086
>Trying to cultivate an attitude of not caring about feminism might be a good step towards solving the problem.
This was my attitude for most of the relationship -- and it went well! But she has a job in social work, so when I ask her about her day, feminism comes up pretty regularly.

>>11079086
ITS TRUE SLAVE YOUR OPINION DOESN’T MATTER IN FACT IF YOU DIE NO ONE CARES BECAUSE WE CAN KEEP MAKING MONEY OFF OF YOU! JUST DON’T THINK, LET OTHER PEOPLE THINK, DEFER TO YOUR BETTERS ALWAYS, MAKE SURE YOU WORK HARD TODAY OK BYE SLAVE

>>11078586
I loved A Room of One's Own and couldn't help agreeing with 99% of its content. Then again, I've never been a bitter robot or /pol/tard.

Despite that, and despite that it was intended for women writers, I couldn't help identifying with it and applying it to myself, though not in a literal sense; I work full time, but in the evening, and when I get home I'm too tired to read and too wound-up to sleep, so all I can do is drink beer until I go to sleep but I wake up too hungover to read, then go back to work. If only I had a fuckload of money to sit on so I could write and read full time.

tl;dr, my post contributes nothing to this thread and has very little, if at all, to do with OP's topic.

If I may, however, I can only say that, no, women should not be compensated for what they were denied in previous generations without equal responsibility or accountability, and, no, the Canon should not be de-emphasized but learned from. If your girlfriend should bother to read A Room of One's Own, she should learn that women should not work on destroying the tower men have built, but building their own equally tall, then maybe if they can learn to work with on these issues, build a tower together. (The towers in this case are allegories, in case anyone didn't get that.) Woolf never despises men, and never proposes they should stand aside. Most feminists haven't read Woolf anyway, and that's just sad.

>>11079112
Yes, anon, if you keep flapping your mouth about how smart you are that will surely make you a smart boy one day.

Ive got a copy of A Room of Ones Own, To the Lighthouse, and a short biography on Woolf all in front of me.

Would it make more sense to read the biography before the fiction or essay for context, or after for understanding?

>Women have historically not had the same access to opportunities as men
>so it's women's turn to have institutional advantages.
or
>We need to encourage all American citizens to feel like they have a stake in their country
>so we need to de-emphasize the Western Canon.
or
>Rape is a heinous crime, the perpetrators the most evil of men
>so it's unfair to give women any responsibility in their own protection from it.
or
>Today's culture permeates destructive messages re sexual choices
>so women should be told that their sexual choices aren't important.

The common theme here seems to be the avoidance of any personal responsibility or accountability. Change is needed, but somebody else should do the work, preferably the system. The root of this thinking seems to be the over-emphasis on sociological thinking and seeing humans just as a result of the bigger systems around them. The lack of success or wrongdoings and the opposites are just the outcomes of an arbitrary system. Tellingly, the major blind spot of feminist thought is socioeconomically weak white men. They are the sign that race and and sex don't determine everything when it comes to power. There has to be some kind of competition to determine where the pieces fall, something where the outcomes are decided by innate or learned abilities.

This is the major failure of feminist ideology and many left-leaning schools of thought; the notion that power is arbitrary, if we enforce equality through a system all differences will disappear, thus releasing us of our admittedly extremely arduous task of becoming more powerful ourselves.

Thus far,
>A Room of Ones Own
>The Vindication of the Rights of Women
>The Second Sex
>The Female Eununch
These are all palatable enough for me. Anything else?

>>11079317
Missed one.
>Rules for Radicals

>>11079317
We Should All Be Feminists
Just kidding, I hate that sheboon.

>>11079317
Not one of those is modern

>>11079418
Every single one of them is modern

>>11079418
This is important. There's first-wave, second-wave, and third-wave feminism. I'm not sure if reading about first- and second-wave feminism helps me accomplish anything.

>>11079431
Explain yourself

>>11079432
Well, most modern feminism is terrible, and all emotion based... There's not much to understand... If you want to capture the feeling watch some indie movies, but most of those reject neo-feminism too lol

>>11079440
18th century to today is modern sweetie

>>11079447
When I think neo-feminism I think blaming men for your problems, the others I think advocates for a philosophical change in allowing more women given freedom and saying they should have a stronger will to power

White Teeth- Zadie Smith is probably your best bet

>>11079447
Reading modern feminist memoir schlock doesn't mean you have agree with everything said in the book.

>>11079484
Ok so then read Just Kids

>>11078586
You would benefit far more from reading "Red-Pill" theory (such as pic related) than from reading feminist drivel. You aren't fighting your girlfriend because of abstract principles or political philosophy. Don't mistake the battleground for the war.

Women surrender to strong men, though they may put up a fight about it. If your woman won't surrender to you on this political garbage she doesn't see you as a strong man, and if she doesn't see you as a strong man you will not have a good relationship.

Don't judge women by their words, judge them by their actions. Reading feminist theory is pointless when you can look at the historical reality of what feminism has fought for. They are hand-maidens of the destruction of Western civilization.

>>11079547

>>11079547
Feminism was a mistake.

>>11078586
The best way to be on the same team is to recognise a natural division of labour.
Men in charge of hunting and defense. Women in charge of home making and childrearing.
Do that and you'll both have a happy life.
Don't get involved with a woman who wants to compete mano-a-womano on a stupid career promotion, highest salary basis, or as soon as the mortgage is paid and yhe kids are in college youll be out on your ass.

>>11079547
This book is a meme

>>11079556
>>>/pol/

>>11079547
>>11079549
>>11079556
Epic truthbombs fellow magapede!

>>11079547
Maybe I am asking the wrong question. This all started because I read a few feminist short essays this morning. They all referred to men as "pigs" and passive aggressiveness as "the humane way." It was all so incredibly divisive and disheartening.

I don't think feminists realize just how disheartening their views are. My girlfriend was telling me how it's disgusting how men think they're entitled to women. I get it, feeling entitled to another human being is repugnant. But then I pointed out how tenuous the relationship between man and society is. Take away the hope for a wife and family, and men lose all interest in buying in. They may have an IQ pushing 130. They may have the opportunity to earn six figures. They'll drop out anyway. You see this in suicide rates (DFW lol) and in college-dropout rates.

I'm sure you all have anecdotal evidence of this, too. I know when I read the stupid essays this morning, a I felt a strong dose of
>Okay, you win, but I'm not playing anymore.
But well, I did the MGTOW for a while and saw how it ends in indulging in consumer culture. What shit.

I guess maybe the best course of action is to just show my girlfriend all the fucking terrible third-wave feminist bullshit I read. Make it all too on the nose for her.

>>11079727
Dating is about compromise, seems like you're doing more than your fair share... Talk to her about this, and tell her what you've said how she's special or whatever, and then hopefully she'll understand where you are coming from.

I'm feeling defeated. I'm going to go to sleep. Tomorrow I will be able to think clearly again.

>>11079795
Sleep tight, don't let the radical feminists bite

>tl;dr
>reddit spacing
>feminism
I think reddit would be more suited for you buddy

>>11080670
Or read Sex and Character you suckhole

>>11080378
Thanks buddy. I just exercised and hung out with some down-to-earth friends.

>>11080670
>reddit spacing
also known as paragraphs. i have never used reddit

>>11078586
Anon, I feel your plight; I really do. There isn't anything for you to better understand - given the examples you've shown us are fair representations of the conversations you're having. Your girlfriend is simply not very bright, and you'll have to make peace with that fact or move on to greener pastures.

There are intelligent women out there for you to find (cue misogynist scoffs), but either yours isn't among their number, or she isn't mentally ripe yet.

Still, nothing wrong with reading feminist literature - it will just be an excruciating journey.

>>11082335
Oh, also, I forgot to mention the pinnacle of modern feminist lit - /Lit/'s Heroine and Gem, Rupi Kaur.

"Madwoman in the Attic" by Susan Gilbert
Wide Sargasso Sea
The Ethical Slut

>>11079431
>>11079453
YOU SAID MODERN, EVEN THOUGH YOU MEANT CONTEMPORARY!! LOL

>>11078586
If you're European you should start reading the Quran.

this one: https://genius.com/Friedrich-nietzsche-old-and-young-women-xviii-annotated

>>11079556
So speaking in my career field that’s fairly closely intertwined with psychology, my theory behind why this is, is that the majority of people are very introverted. For people that are natural extroverts, they tend to not assign as much importance to the random hookup, or casual relationship because they are more apt to building their own social support structures to fall back on for their happiness.

It’s the majority of introverts that the broader cultural movement towards a more atomized and independent society that have been effected the most, lacking the ability to create through interaction their own social support structures, a group that has largely depended on pre-built social structures I.e marriage is devoid of an ability to create meaning in their lives, and have structures to regulate their interactions. Leading to things like high dropout rates, unhappiness, suicide, etc.

While not a comprehensive idea, in my personal anecdotal experience this seems to ring true.

>>11082956
>on a board for literature
>can't use basic language correctly

>>11083033
Okay?
The bottom line is that women shouldn't be fornicating, it is objectively harmful, and sexual liberation is a mistake.

>>11078586
Feminism is just another flavor of idiotic mass culture by this point. the goal is to produce an army of middle management narcissistic (AKA ''empowered'') gynoclones and consumers.

>We need to encourage all American citizens to feel like they have a stake in their country
America is no longer a country, there is no real American identity and no such thing as american values anymore, only paper thin 'identities' created ex nihilo out of bureaucratic administrative dispositions, marketing research and internet panopticon discourse. only the oligarchy has a real stake in 'America' anyways, the average 'american' only reads books to gaze on their own reflection, narcissus like.

We Went to “Beyoncé Mass” and It Was Glorious

The notion of a Beyoncé mass ruffled some feathers, with conservative Christian voices mocking the idea or claiming the church was deifying Beyoncé—as if she’s not been deified already.
https://www.motherjones.com/media/2018/04/grace-cathedral-beyonce-mass-was-glorious/

>>11079727
>But then I pointed out how tenuous the relationship between man and society is. Take away the hope for a wife and family, and men lose all interest in buying in.
This sounds really self-aggrandizing. You're right to remark on the loss off community leading to trivial things like consumerism, but I think the implication that community and society is really just about leveling up so you can breed is really reductive, as though nobody lived in a village for non-sexual companionship. Tbh it sounds like you expect having a wife/kids to fix a lot of your problems.
>It's disheartening to think you can't be owed other people
They likely don't think so, honestly I think less of people who don't have disheartening world views, this is often not a nice place

>>11079061

This is most likely the Crux of the matter. Every time I've had a gf that worked out it's because I managed her emotions around the subject of feminism well.

She is insecure about being dumber and less capable than you. She likely under values what she brings to the relationship and feminism is this thing that keeps her comfortable with the fact that she's not as competent because it makes her think you see her as an equal.

My solution has always been to approach her from a cynical mindset and just use that Socratic curious approach instead of the patrician "I know all the answers" thing. This is specific to my personality, though, so you will need a different method.

I don't think reading books would have helped me as much because I am not interested in intellectual rigor when it comes to something like this.

>>11083112
>the implication that society is really just about leveling up so you can breed is really reductive.
>Tbh it sounds like you expect having a wife/kids to fix a lot of your problems.
I definitely exaggerated, which you're keying in on. I don't mean to suggest that a wife and kids are a man's only tie to society. I'm saying that men tend to care very little about working hard and earning money if they don't think they'll have kids.

When women talk about prioritizing their career, they usually talk about how their career will imbue their life with meaning. Sometimes they'll even talk about how empowering it is to work for someone else.

I don't get it. Most of the guys I know don't get it. We work because we need money. We try not to work for evil places. We try to work at places that are fun enough to be at. But we're always looking for ways to stop. A lot of us have projects we hope to turn into businesses.

I don't really have a point to make here. My original post came from a place of frustration, not coherence. It all reminds me a lot of pic related.

>>11083541
>When women talk about prioritizing their career, they usually talk about how their career will imbue their life with meaning. Sometimes they'll even talk about how empowering it is to work for someone else.

feminism is indistinguishable from individualistic consumerism, instead of working for the benefit of one's family or wearing make up to attract men, you now do these things to 'feel good about yourself'. it's just a more insidious form of marketing.

>>11083069
It’s not that it’s a mistake, it’s just that traditional support structures have been eroded and we’ve yet to be able to effectively replace that.
Consumerism seems to have bridged the gap to a degree with things like nerd culture XDD, but there isn’t yet a lasting solution. And rolling back cultural change would likely be more harmful, as the people who have adapted to it would likely not want it.

>>11083556
>It's just a more insidious form of marketing.
Intuitively, this feels right. I remember casually talking about marriage and kids with my current girlfriend. She was saying how she wants us to both work.
>Why do you *get* to work and I don't?
I had to explain to her that my earning potential was 4x hers because of our choices of majors. I had to explain to her that it would make more financial sense for her *not* to work. That I would still want her to be heavily involved with her friends and community.
>But how can I live without the validation of a job?
Validation from consumerism > validation from friends, family, and community, I guess

>>11083541
That makes more sense desu, I definitely see where you're coming from.
I have a hard time relating to people who think a lot about careers and climbing office ladders and all that. Obviously you'd like a job that pays you enough to live comfortably and not worry too much. But going far beyond that does feel like some kind of status anxiety/fixation, and even though he sounds like a jerk, >>11083556
Is right to seize on one of the unfortunate manifestations of feminism is a brand of this consumerist trap that targets women as well.
As far as my own thoughts, having now dated a woman who was a very serious feminist I can't really go back. I think there's something admirable about being very invested in thinking about ones own interests. Try to approach the notion from that perspective, you may find it much easier to discuss the topic if you have a shared understanding of what 'the point' is

>>11083596
in advanced post industrial societies, most jobs have nothing to do with production and function instead as forms of social control and discipline. the transition from the extended 'traditional' family to the suburban nuclear family centred on the male breadwinner to our current world of atomized 'empowered' individuals what you see is a continuous process of discipline driven by industrial and technological forces.

>>11083656
>>11083587
Okay, so maybe the thing to do is read feminist literature alongside stuff on commercial culture.
>DFW

>OP asks for book recs
>99% of the replies are just discussing whether or not it's a worthwhile question to ask

We don't care if you think girls are neat or not, that's not the point of this thread.

>>11083678
>stuff on commercial culture.
Check this out, together with Cristopher Lasch's the Culture of Narcissism

>>11083686
Thank you!

>>11083596
why do you assume the reason your girlfriend wants to work is because of feminism? maybe she just genuinely appreciates work, which is an admirable quality in any person.

i am also a self identified feminist and i want to stay at home and take care of my babies for at least the first 6 years of each of their lives. but i think that mainly because i love children.

>>11083725
>maybe she just genuinely appreciates work, which is an admirable quality in any person.
I agree. I think she should work hard to raise the kids and improve the community. I should too. But I also should earn money because it is much more efficient for me to do so.
>why do you assume the reason your girlfriend wants to work is because of feminism?
Because she references power structures and patriarchy when talking about it.

>>11083725
>maybe she just genuinely appreciates work, which is an admirable quality in any person.
>I think there's something admirable about being very invested in thinking about ones own interests. Try to approach the notion from that perspective, you may find it much easier to discuss the topic if you have a shared understanding of what 'the point' is
>I don't get it. Most of the guys I know don't get it. We work because we need money. We try not to work for evil places. We try to work at places that are fun enough to be at. But we're always looking for ways to stop. A lot of us have projects we hope to turn into businesses.

you can no longer sell huhwhite male managerial business success as something inherently 'progressive'. but being a girl boss CEO or president is still kool at least according to middle class liberal values. power is always on the lookout for new hosts. I don't think the system is really sustainable as it will eventually be consumed by its own atomizing nihilism, the growth of a underclass with zero prospects for advancement and the return of tribalistic competition once all standards of 'fairness' have been deconstructed. Donald Trump's presidency is both a reaction to and a logical product of the ongoing process of deconstruction. The vaunted institutions of our politics, our 'democracy' and our supposedly 'meritocratic' technostructure are obsolete because they assume a technological and social substructure that's no longer there.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/253614/is-feminist-lemonade-kosher..

>>11083749
>Because she references power structures and patriarchy when talking about it.

>At Nike, Revolt Led by Women Leads to Exodus of Male Executives

notice how it's all about those awful executive bros keeping would be highly qualified Hillary YAS KWEENS down, no mention of the hundreds of thousands of southeast asian sweatshop laborers (mostly women) slaving away at Nike's production plants.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/28/business/nike-women.html

>>11083766
i did read all the rest of these posts and i see what youre saying here. i kind of doubt your gf/the gf in question here thinks about her desire to work in terms of middle management/achieving access to consumer goods OR in a girlboss way. she might just be the kind of person who actually enjoys working for the sake of it.

i will add though as something else to consider from her perspective. if she is financially independent now the prospect of returning to financial dependency is probably not a good one. it’s a scary state to be in and makes her very vulnerable.

also important to note that if a woman spends years outside the workforce financially dependent on her husband, taking care of their children and after 10 years or something they divorce? her earning potential is pretty shot and she has virtually no hope of starting over again. wheras he very easily could. it’s very scary to be a woman.

>>11083886
i'm not that poster, don't have a wife and probably never will, I satisfy my physical and emotional need with hook ups but I just feel this bitterness towards society and the middle class particularly, the general dumbing down of culture, how our corporate masters all care deeply about 'equality' now, it's all so vulgar. don't get me wrong I'm not a Petersonfag who wants to go back to an imagined 1950s suburban idyll, I don't think I could survive back in the 50s anyways. my vaguely paleocon tendencies stem from seeing everything I ever found remotely meaningful fade away into nothingess and melt into the air.

>>11083725
why do you assume the reason your girlfriend wants to work is because of feminism? maybe she just genuinely appreciates work, which is an admirable quality in any person.

>Liking work
>Admirable

Spot the dumbfuck yank

>>11078888
Don't be stupid.

>>11084012
>lazy europoors having an opinion
Isn’t it time for your siesta Francisco?

>>11083886
>It's very easy to start all over again after ten years out the workforce if you're a man

You are a fucking idiot.

>>11078636
>lie cheat and steal cuz the ends justify the means
Sounds like a great guy, how is he not just machiavelli jr

>>11083927
My own suburban upbringing was pretty awful, parents divorced when I was 7, dad is an incorrigible pot smoking deadbeat who listens to Alex Jones MGTOW and other such crap, mom married to a wealthier model husband and breadwinner. The idealized nuclear family is probably just another marketing scheme, originating somewhere in the midcentury as a means to sell cars and whatnot. I managed to get into a good college. do I have unresolved issues with women? probably. It would be nice if we could all have soviet style creches and guaranteed basic income, but from what i can see things are only about to get worse and worse.

Read beauvoir, woolf, sontag, wollstonecraft, mill, weininger, etc

>>11084048
>family is a marketing scheme
Read some history fag

>>11084076
Haven in a Heartless World is a densely argued book, and Lasch himself was not certain what his arguments implied, practically. (He died in his prime, at sixty-one, before he could spell out the programmatic implications of his far-reaching critique of modernity.) But far from idealizing the nuclear family, Lasch portrayed it as a doomed adaptation to industrial development. The transition from household production to mass production inaugurated a new world—a heartless world, to which the ideology of the family as a domestic sanctuary, a haven, was one response. The premodern, preindustrial family was besieged (and vanquished) by market forces; the modern family is besieged by the “helping” (which has turned out to mean “controlling”) professions. The latter development—the subordination of the family to the authority of a therapeutic ideology and an impersonal bureaucracy—is the story told in Haven in a Heartless World and its successors, the very well-known Culture of Narcissism and the not very well-known The Minimal Self.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/40546941?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/dialectic-love-authority

>not having a passive cutie gf who constantly talks about having your babies and how cute theyll be.

Feel sorry for you blokes

>>11078586
As long as you aren't an asshole to women, your girlfriend will like you.
If you're nice to people and your girlfriend still wants you to be an active informed feminist, then you should dump her because she seems annoying.

>>11079244
>there are white men who or not successful socioeconomically
>therefore white men have no socioeconomic advantages
Not that I don't agree with your sentiment but your logic bad.

>>11078586
The list included is sufficient as is, though I’ll slip in some bell hooks, specifically her book The Will to Chand: Men, Masculinity, and Love.

I mention it only because modern pop white feminist discource (aka your girlfriend’s sources) tends to focus more and more on the concept of Toxic Masculinity, namely how conventional masculinity is ultimately harmful to men, all men. There’s a 90% chance any conversation on whether feminism is good or bad between a man and a woman eventually gets to the topic of Toxic Masculinity and how Feminism Helps Men Too and Just Let Me Help You, so it’s a very worthwhile subject to read up on (even beyond the need for an argument it’s an interesting, if only esoteric, part of social justice).

>>11078586
>That's because her claims are stupid and emotional
>You are likely to have stupid and emotional beliefs too
>Love is about accepting each other for even your stupid sides
You don't have to be the same - i'm fucking tired of my same old self - i wouldn't want to date another myself.

>>11084965
Thanks, anon. I already purchased a few of the books mentioned. I'll make sure to include your recommendation next trip to the bookstore.

>>11085180
>You are likely to have stupid and emotional beliefs too.
Definitely. She's actually been very helpful in identifying and rectifying the especially self-destructive ones. This is a big part of why I love her.

I aim to do the same for her when I can. In this case, a lot of her feminist views are not self-destructive -- namely the ones that are just anti-consumerism in disguise (e.g., "marketing has become evil" and "commercial TV is harmful").

But I think her views toward kids and work may fuck her up in the end. She wants to sacrifice her financial well being in order to work stressful social-outreach jobs that don't pay well, all the time worrying that her eggs are going to slowly get less and less healthy. Then she wants to keep working these incredibly draining jobs rather than just raising her kids and volunteering in our community.

Feminism belies some tension between ambition and motherhood. For many it exists, but for her it doesn't have to. She can be a mother and she can be a mentor in our community. I encourage both.

>>11083886
>also important to note that if a woman spends years outside the workforce financially dependent on her husband, taking care of their children and after 10 years or something they divorce? her earning potential is pretty shot and she has virtually no hope of starting over again.
what is alimony?