/lit/ - Literature

There are other forms of socialism; very many options under a managed economy like we have now also.

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No, all politics currently boils down either to what Schmitt called political theology and Voegelin called gnosticism, or to some variant of communicative rationality that has no ethics and is doomed to fail (unless you count, at best, some kind of Levinas/Bakhtin self-expansion through perpetually encountering the other as an ethics, but that would still be theological)

The only possible political stances hitherto discovered by mankind are fascism (whether Christian, communist, or potato variety), utilitarian orgyporgy self-contradicting nightmare shit-town liberal sham "democracy," and machiavellian prolmanip

>>11039055
Capitalism is unsustainable. Market economies aren't. Most economies would swift into a corporatist economy

>>11039084
>a mode of production with two materially antagonistic groups is very sustainable, actually

>>11039055
Here

COMMUNIZATION

>>11039055
Fuck this subversive jew and his gay ass Santa Claus beard too!

>>11039092
>materially antagonistic groups
The thing is that outside of Marx autism they aren't. Most workers don't want to own the means of production and preffer doing a menial job with job security or just recieving welfare. As long as most people can get a simple job at anything or a welfare check the system is sustainable.

>>11039055
Because the alternative is even less sustainable

>>11039114
>it's not actually in the capitalists interests to drive down wages and extend the working day to make the most profit, and it's not actually in the workers interests to want higher wages or actual control over their own lives

>workers actually want menial jobs

>>11039055
Capitalism is unsustainable, but only because its wild success will destroy the conditions required for it to survive.

Capitalism is currently turning your every expression, conversation, opinion, thought, search term, on the internet - into capital, in the form of data.

The alternatives are disgusting and awful, until they seem to be your only choice to take down the glib, venal psychopaths and powers-that-be who have been more than happy to preside over your declining living standards for decades while telling you "you've never had it so good! you've never had it so good!".

There is likely no better way, except more direct democracy. More technology is only going to make it worse.

>>11039055
>Any serious thinker knows that capitalism is unsustainable
Wrong. There are plenty of serious thinkers (every liberal economist) who think that capitalism is sustainable so long as it's managed properly and the long-run kept in mind. I happen to agree with them. Marx's critique applied to a transitional moment in history and has become weaker as humanity has hones capitalism in the intervening years.

>>11039158
>liberal economist
>serious

>>11039139
>>it's not actually in the capitalists interests to drive down wages and extend the working day to make the most profit, and it's not actually in the workers interests to want higher wages or actual control over their own lives
Making a caricature of something is not an argument. Capitalists want the most profit but that usually comes down to other factors other than labour and oftenly a happy workforce is cheaper to maintain and more productive than unhappy one and workers oftenly get rewarded by their work. Most workers don't want to own the means of production because that requires a risk. Companies lose money all the time and most workers wouldn't like to suddenly lose 500k$ dollars because of a flawed production or simply not putting its product on the market place succesfully
>>workers actually want menial jobs
Most people preffer a stable job rather than a well paying one. Life is not just about getting rich

>>11039158
Good post

A scientific approach to economics is the best approach

>>11039114
nope, complete fucking horseshit. and psychotic golem people cannot probably advocate for their own material interests just like fat pigs do not have the knowledge or incentive to utilize medical advice

>>11039161
>Marxist economics
>Not a fucking joke
Most economists are neoclassical or neokeynesian and both are liberal economists

>>11039171
>Reee you disagree with me you wrong muh pink people hehehe
Wow what a fucking argument

>>11039158
nothing has been honed, we got out of the 2008 crisis by hedging for the future, we are on the precipice of another crash,
they come like clockwork and have gotten exponentially worse each cycle since 1929. No one who is not being PAID to write studies for oligarchs and massive oligarch funded research schools is comfortable with what’s happening. Get out of your office, the world is set up exactly how it was in 2006, we are building on quicksand, shipping in more of it does nothing but buy time. you are buying time. just wait until crypto and digital markets wreak havoc on neo-keynesian QE

>>11039174
>mainstream economists
>not a fucking joke

>>11039184
>People that know more than me are a joke
Oh yeah the power of greentext

>>11039174
marxist economics isn't a thing, marxism is a critique of economics itself

>>11039182
You are openly lying. No crisis has been worse than 1929 since 1929

>>11039195
Marx criticizes classic economics. He proposes one of his own (which is totally retarded)

>>11039199
2007-2009 was pretty bad desu

>>11039055

just calling it "capitalism" completely ignores the nuance that political economy contributes to what we understand as the economic direction of a nation.

i used to be more subscriptive to marxism and marxian economics but definitely have become much more sympathetic to keynesianism lately.

>>11039214
Not even close to 1929 in every measurable way. Unemployment remained lower,the stock did better,the number of hours worked and ctive workforce was reduced by snaller amount and the recession lasted less time. The US was still in a recession in 1939 while 10 years after the recession the current US is thriving and places like Wisconsin have an unemployment of 2.6% which is ridicoulously good

>>11039166
>Companies lose money all the time
But the capitalist class as a whole making a net profit

>most workers wouldn't like to suddenly lose 500k$ dollars because of a flawed production or simply not putting its product on the market place successfully
this is a misunderstanding of what marxists advocate for. they don’t advocate for the workers to own the means of production, but the abolition of capitalism itself

>Life is not just about getting rich
this is why i’m anti-capitalist, capitalism reorientates everything towards the pursuit of profit

>>11039055
Capitalism isn't unsustainable

Why do lefties take this as axiomatic?

>capitalism
>unsustainable
i think you mean the consumption economy created by govt regulation throttling genuine innovation

there is nothing to suggest that capitalism is unsustainable

>>11039229
>But the capitalist class as a whole making a net profit
A lot of capitalists declare bankrupt. You are just choosing to ignore this fact and create a monolithic boogeyman that is way easier to attack
>this is a misunderstanding of what marxists advocate for. they don’t advocate for the workers to own the means of production, but the abolition of capitalism itself
By the aquisition of the workers to the means of production removing the figure of the capitalist
>this is why i’m anti-capitalist, capitalism reorientates everything towards the pursuit of profit
In a sense that's right but in reality most people just have a simple white collar job and spend most of their time not working. I am only corncern abput the commerzialization of morality,religion,education and information which honestly are harming the nuclear familar and destroying society

Youre prob not gonna see much until most white people are dead fucking broke or desperate.

>>11039114
Communism is about time. the time of fulfilment and realisation, about the end of toil and enslavement. Does anyone actually desire a menial job? Is this all humanity should aspire to: meaningless toil and tv in the afternoons, the total impovrishment of everyday life? Tell me how many people actually enjoy their jobs? Most jobs in an advanced post industrial economy are pointless busywork or worse, mechanisms of social control. You've been taught to see 'the economy' as an irrefutable law of nature, the closest thing our age has to a God, and not like the political and ideological construct it really is.

>>11039257
>In a sense that's right but in reality most people just have a simple white collar job and spend most of their time not working. I am only corncern abput the commerzialization of morality,religion,education and information which honestly are harming the nuclear familar and destroying society

http://www.radicalcritique.org/2013/10/whats-wrong-with-right.html

>>11039055
'a-thing-after-capitalism', if you don't like the old words

true capitalism has never been tried, the closest thing is singapore which is fucking great by any measure.

>>11039256
Nick Land fried his brain on meth and reverted to a generically boomer-esque vaguely racest liberal

>>11039055

>>11039294
>Most jobs in an advanced post industrial economy are pointless busywork or worse
so take the next logical step and realise the working class is relevant and should not exist

Reminder that if you unironically defend capitalism you're a pseud.
>bu, but, it's sustainable if properly managed and it's better than the alternatives
if capitalism is the best mode we can come up with then civilization should just end.

>>11039332
capitalism doesn't need to be defended or managed

The only economic system that works is free market capitalism.

>>11039343
See you're not even a pseud, you're just an idiot.

>>11039350
capital is an alien sent from the future it doesn't care what you think

>>11039245
what if innovation itself is what makes capitalism inherently unsustainable? (btw schumpeter looks like a goblin). When American conservatives talk about capitalism, they talk about this imaginary 18th century jeffersonian utopia of yeoman farmers and independent craftsmen that has no connection at all to contemporary high tech financialised post industrial capitalism. Any divergence from the ideal must be due to big gubmint failing to properly venerate the entrepreneur or something. microeconomics and contractualism are al in all a pretty reductive model of the human, don't you think? do you see yourself as nothing more than an utility maximizer?

>>11039294
>Communism is about time
No its not it is about the abolishment of capitalism. That doesn't mean that you will have more free time in the afternoons

>>11039055
Define capitalism.

anyone want to explain what makes capitalism unsustainable?

Anyone that thinks capitalism is good should be shot. I'm not memeing. The only people that think that are the capitalists themselves and the cucks that suck them off. We'd be better without them.

>>11039425
I agree except replace capitalism with communism

>>11039417
perpetual grow is imposible.

If everyone lives like the average US citizen, we would need like 5 planets.

>>11039427

Don't be a capitalist supporting cuckold.

>>11039425
You got a lot of people to shoot. Better make sure the libs dont vote your guns away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgR6uaVqWsQ

>>11039055
The only thing wrong with capitalism is that we have to buy the things we need for survival. If everything needed for survival was provided for, a market for consumerism could be free to explode and innovation driven by competition would lead humanity to a better place.

Just my theory though.

>>11039434

I hate liberals so much, honestly. I understand being reactionary and ignorant and retarded but come on.

>>11039430
there is still a lot more room for growth in the world
you'll see autonomous AI creating their own computer worlds before the real world runs out of room to grow

>>11039464
also capitalism doesn't mean everyone has to have high living standards

>>11039304
Really good article. I would like to mark this from it
>If power is needed to destroy power, ...an uneasy balance of power would seem to become the highest goal to which society could aspire.” The only way to break the cycle is to subject oneself and one’s political friends to the same rigorous moral standards to which one subjects one’s opponents and to invoke spiritual standards, moreover, not merely to condemn one’s opponents but also to understand and forgive them.
And this basically boils down to the church losing the moral torch to no one and people relativizing everything. Burke talks deeply abput this and it is really interesting. That is why everyday I am starting to get more inclined on fascism as I don't see civil society building an objective moral standard on its own

>>11039472
ppulated countries like China and India are rising their living standars, there will be more wars for resources, terrritory, power etc. (see siria and yemen). Mexican wanting to live like your average texan throwing themselves into the USA, refugees flooding europe and so on.

Thats capitalism baby.

>>11039332
Your post is pseudo as fuck

>>11039488
what are you trying to say?
>people want higher living standards
yeah no shit, but capitalism doesn't require people to have it

>>11039500
If they want to make actual profit than yeah they do. If you have basically no living standards you aint buying shit.

>>11039486
I'm more interested in the 'return to christianity' evident in the works of recent continental political philosophers who would usually be associated with the radical left, ie. Agamben, Zizek, Badiou. I do believe the christian legacy of universalism is worth defending. gee, maybe communism is actually the full telos and realisation of western thought, who knows? Lasch wrote about the culture of narcissism associated with consumer capitalism. people have forgotten how to separate the self from the outside world impoverishing both our inner lives and our politics.

>>11039356
This but unironically

>>11039055
that's some serious flawed premise there

>>11039500
we adults are talking about why capitalism is unsustainable. You go and enjoy your AI generated computer world.

>>11039545
I am a catholic myself but I don't see people interested in God any more. They are more contempt with the adoration of he self and comertialized superstition that accumulates the spiritual aspects of most people nowadays. I think that morality will have to be restablish top to bottom as things stand specially with the growth of multiculturalism which will make an absolute moral framework even harder

>>11039570

To articulate what is past does not mean to recognize “how it really was.” It means to take control of a memory, as it flashes in a moment of danger. For historical materialism it is a question of holding fast to a picture of the past, just as if it had unexpectedly thrust itself, in a moment of danger, on the historical subject. The danger threatens the stock of tradition as much as its recipients. For both it is one and the same: handing itself over as the tool of the ruling classes. In every epoch, the attempt must be made to deliver tradition anew from the conformism which is on the point of overwhelming it. For the Messiah arrives not merely as the Redeemer; he also arrives as the vanquisher of the Anti-Christ. The only writer of history with the gift of setting alight the sparks of hope in the past, is the one who is convinced of this: that not even the dead will be safe from the enemy, if he is victorious. And this enemy has not ceased to be victorious.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/benjamin/1940/history.htm

ITT "I have a philosophy degree and think I can talk about economics"

>>11039598
I don't dismiss economics at all, it's a fine field. I just want to get rid of what it studies.

Also >implying /lit/ has a degree