/lit/ - Literature

>>11025692
Well, think about it: would you ever be afraid of being bullied by a Jew? How weak would you have to be to think they possibly ever were going to win in a fight? Even with all Nietzsche's illnesses, he could see you couldn't claim to be strong and in the same breath declare a minor population who can't eat bacon was trying to stop your ass.

>>11025692

He would view them as manifestations of herd morality.

>>11025692
A blind and culturally destructive mass movement of dogmatic and romantic Germanism. A stifled thought-hell. Proletarian smoothbrain state. Blind obedience of Prussian general and bureaucrat brainlets. Seems like Nietzsche's worst nightmare.

if he worshipped napoleon and renaissance condottieri, it wouldnt be uncharacteristic that he would side with hitler mythus and SS condottieri. grand style tops everything.

>>11025692
In BGAE he claims that the jewish people as a whole were one of the purest people in Europe as their rites and traditions dettered them from nihilism by default

>>11025768
>>11025806
These
Would of approved of Lebensborn though

>>11025692
Nietzsche would have liked Italian fascism at the top level.

The whole Master Race thing isn't really borne out by reality, because the Swedes and other Scandinavians, then as now, are somnolescent and hard-working peasants, intelligent, but with hardly a flicker of ambition.

To a certain extent, Nazism represents a peasant revolt provided with a scapegoat city-slicker and scapegoat aristocrat class to attack.

And Nordicist history is literally just "we wuz kaings" for Northern Europe, traditionally the poorest and most miserable part of Europe, always envious of the sunny south with its cities and literacy. Not surprising that Nietzsche loved Italy so much.

I think Nietzsche would have drawn a distinction between sincere beliefs of dictators and the propaganda they put out. The problem with Hitler is that he lived totally for his ideas and had hardly any concept of himself except as the instrument of Germany.

>>11025897
>Nietzsche would have liked Italian fascism at the top level.
No. He was staunchly against submission to the state and all the repressions of a authoritarian state.
You can say he would have admired their militarism and individual fascists but fascism as an actuality would be abhorent for him

>>11025909
What part of top level don't you understand? Mussolini was having a ball.

Somewhere there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren: here there are states.

A state? What is that? Well! open now your ears unto me, for now will I say unto you my word concerning the death of peoples.

A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."

It is a lie! Creators were they who created peoples, and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life.

Destroyers, are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred cravings over them.

Where there is still a people, there the state is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs.

This sign I give unto you: every people speaketh its language of good and evil: this its neighbour understandeth not. Its language hath it devised for itself in laws and customs.

But the state lieth in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it saith it lieth; and whatever it hath it hath stolen.

False is everything in it; with stolen teeth it biteth, the biting one. False are even its bowels.

Confusion of language of good and evil; this sign I give unto you as the sign of the state. Verily, the will to death, indicateth this sign! Verily, it beckoneth unto the preachers of death!

Many too many are born: for the superfluous ones was the state devised!

See just how it enticeth them to it, the many-too-many! How it swalloweth and cheweth and recheweth them!

"On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God."—thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!

Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies! Ah! it findeth out the rich hearts which willingly lavish themselves!

Yea, it findeth you out too, ye conquerors of the old God! Weary ye became of the conflict, and now your weariness serveth the new idol!

Heroes and honourable ones, it would fain set up around it, the new idol! Gladly it basketh in the sunshine of good consciences,- the cold monster!

>>11025932
Everything will it give you, if ye worship it, the new idol: thus it purchaseth the lustre of your virtue, and the glance of your proud eyes.

It seeketh to allure by means of you, the many-too-many! Yea, a hellish artifice hath here been devised, a death-horse jingling with the trappings of divine honours!

Yea, a dying for many hath here been devised, which glorifieth itself as life: verily, a hearty service unto all preachers of death!

The state, I call it, where all are poison-drinkers, the good and the bad: the state, where all lose themselves, the good and the bad: the state, where the slow suicide of all—is called "life."

Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!

Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves.

Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!

See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss.

Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.- and ofttimes also the throne on filth.

Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters.

My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!

Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!

Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!

Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas.

Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!

There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody.

There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—

Thus spake Zarathustra.

>>11025926
Oh I see. I thought he would love it the most. Yeah I agree

>>11025909
>staunchly against submission to the state
*joins nazis to own the bolsheviks*
it's better to predict his behavior from characteristic behavior than from abstract principles which dont fit into his fluid heraclitus "becoming vs being" mindset.

>>11025941
He loathed socialists, but I don't think Nietzsche would have been a credulous anticommunist with a desperate need to see the Bolsheviks crushed.

Because they blame jews
An ubermensh takes responsibility for the problems n his life and proceeds to make a change in it, not blame it on some boogie man that requires weird mental gymnastics to justify hate. How can jews be inferior if they have so much control? Nietzsche didn't like people blaming outside forces for their misfortunes, which is very commendable seeing as how Nietzsche himself had some of the worst misfortunes out there.

>>11025941
When did he do that? Are you retarded?

>he would have
Maybe? Probably not. It also has nothing to do with the subject.

He would have been an SS elitist

Reminder that even Julius fucking Evola hated the Nazis.

>>11026461
mad as fugg

>>11025768
>>11025806

>>11026470
Why are all the fash big nerds?

>>11025692
the entire idea of basing your morality in genetic superiority and traditional values go directly against everything he believed in. Of course he would have been against Nazis

>>11025692
he would've hated anything that happened in the world after his death

>>11025951
They were also seen as the most dangerous, so not that inferior.

>>11026544
I'd say the Nazis were in short supply of traditonal values. Apart from shit like appealing to the "blood and soil" idea. Vichy was probably the most "reactionary" out of the nationalist govts of the day.

>>11026578
Maybe I'm under-read on Nazi's. I thought they were all anti-degenerate, bountiful families, community spirit etc?

Why cant brainlets understand that the Ubermensch wouls never be a part of a bureaucracy, organization, religion or any other type of dick-sucking, self-propagating bullshit.

The ubermensch is an individual and has no master, no ties to petty human shit like Fascism.

Get that through your thick fucking skulls. Nietzsche was NOT happy with the way his country was moving towards in the late 19th century. Towards fascism and tyranny.

>>11025692
>Treitschke Prussian trajectory
as against
>Viennese street artist
God is dead, we have killed him (is calling us/modernity Talmudic.) Better Blonde Beast than nothing. Then there's his scattered references to Socialism/Anarchism in the early epigrammatic works.

He admired Heine, but knew is Voltaire. The philosemitic pose was largely contraposition of the 'transferreance' that went on with Richard Wagner (a distant relative, even) and the personal betrayal (yo doc., my boy faps too much it affects his nerves) + the pressure he leveraged to be his surrogate son/proxy within the scholarly world after The Birth of Tragedy.

What does "priest" really mean in The Genealogy of Morals? What is the Antichrist, when Christ was, in his mind, an Overman? Their relation to Judaism? In the Orphic cosmogeny, the One allows itself to be eviscerated and creation formed from itself, in place of itself (hence no teleological ascent to reassemble 'God'.)

There's a Human All Too Human passage, to the effect "I can imagine no greater danger to mankind than the rule of a transnational elite of money." -- To the extent Germany exited, and attempted to overthrow the international monetary system (British officials' quotes on this are the most conspicuous) FN might've forgiven the social/democratic character of that mass movement, when Germany found itself caught between the Soviet Union and the Atlantic turbo-Capitalism.

>>11025897
>would have liked Italian fascism at the top level.
The biological/scientific race angle of the Germans was alien to the Mediterranean (and even the Balkan nativist instances) Fascist states until late in the war for Italy. Ciano rightly bemoaned the inaction on the guarantee of Austria's sovereignty (would've sufficed to win the Eastern front, in-itself provided it abstained from the invasion of Crete/Greece.)

>>11025897
>as the instrument of Germany.
His view would be favorable to something between Jung's Wotan Archetype, and the priest caste in GoM -- he was a vessel for the injustices suffered by 80 million in the previous war, their resentment reactor.

>>11025932
>there the state is not understood
>render unto Caesar
Also very much the Italian way, then and to the present. But the theory of international socialism leading to the gradual 'withering of the State' haunts this critique.
>where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones,
The German nihilism, modeled on Ragnaraok: the great, ultimately hopeless fight against the end of the world. One titanic effort, and the world can be made anew. 'Living space' in a new frontier on the Russian Plains, past the Urals, -- the Wild East.

...

>>11026630
Whatever "anti-degenerate" means - is the moral degradation or numbness involved in the act of euthanising the sick or in razing a village considered degenerate? The promotion of bountiful families, yes, whose children are encouraged to be on the lookout for un-German comments or behaviour at home.

Nazism is obviously rather syncretic, and any radical new society will be based on "traditional values" of some kind, as well as whatever relatively novel innovations or tendencies it appears to manifest (in this case, racialism, nationalist socialism, eugenics, nordicism, etc.)

>>11026650
>God is dead, we have killed him (is calling us/modernity Talmudic.)

>>11026650

Arguably, Prussia's - and the German states' - greatest military feat of the modern era was von Blucher's forced march to Waterloo:

>"Forwards! I hear you say it's impossible, but it has to be done! I have given my promise to Wellington, and you surely don't want me to break it? Push yourselves, my sons, and we'll have victory!"
>It is impossible not to like Blücher. He was seventy-four years old, still in pain and discomfort from his adventures at Ligny, still stinking of schnapps and of rhubarb liniment, yet he is all enthusiasm and energy.
>If Napoleon's demeanour that day was one of sullen disdain for an enemy he underestimated, and Wellington's a cold, calculating calmness that hid concern, then Blücher is all passion

The high culture of the provincial competition in the German sphere made for this kind of Romantic apotheosis. Nietzsche would've disdained the exigencies leading to its rise, but it would be difficult to say he'd outright hate what he had seen coming, given his prophetic vision of titanic world conflict for dominion over the planet. Heidegger's endorsement likely envisioned a German (and European) existence posited as its goal more akin to Goethe's:

>I do not fear that Germany will not be united; our excellent streets and future railroads will do their own. Germany is united in her patriotism and opposition to external enemies. She is united, because the German Taler and Groschen have the same value throughout the entire Empire, and because my suitcase can pass through all thirty-six states without being opened. It is united, because the municipal travel documents of a resident of Weimar are accepted everywhere on a par with the passports of the citizens of her mighty foreign neighbors. With regard to the German states, there is no longer any talk of domestic and foreign lands. Further, Germany is united in the areas of weights and measures, trade and migration, and a hundred similar things which I neither can nor wish to mention.
>"One is mistaken, however, if one thinks that Germany's unity should be expressed in the form of one large capital city, and that this great city might benefit the masses in the same way that it might benefit the development of a few outstanding individuals,"

>>11025692
He would've admired Hitler, theoretically

>>11025831
>grand style tops everything.
Are you implying nazis didn't have style?

>>11025768
This. We have no idea what he would have thought about Hitler, but we do know that he disliked Germans, anti-Semites, and Christians, all sharing the same attribute of herd morality.

>>11025897
The infatuation with fascism as an abstract symbol of spiritedness and an opposition to the USSR, who he would have despised more than he did the contemporary socialists and Catholics is plausible. the continued support of a plebeian, aninomian and fundamentally nihilistic fantasia cult in the Nazis is questionable. Hitler went out of his way to place the individual into the restricted context of the worker and soldier, using Junger and Strasser’s modified, Spenglerian Socialism to sell collective empowerment to the Volk. There’s nothing in his writings that lends itself to wanting part in mass movements, he always refers to a small group of free spirits. However, the Left may quarrel with this, there is little doubt the martial aggression and empyrean festivity, the ennobled excess of fascism, all may have served to engender affinity with him. And one must remember its likely the anti-Semitism reaching absurd heights which would have caused his disdain. He strongly disliked the Jews and weaker types, there should be no confusion, within his late works is a call for culling the population, what remains to be determined is if he included all of European Jewry in that sentiment. There’s evidence this was not the case, and that N would have likely viewed brutish foot soldiers exterminating vigorous bourgeois Jewish masses as a disgusting example of petty vengeance seeking which placates a voracious people’s need for real glory. And in turn may have seen Hitler’s war as pathetic, for it was all ressentiment based. There’s still the final issue, which is that the Bolsheviks frightened all of Europe, he truly loathed Socialism, and the spectre of the Stalinists on his conscience could have swayed him against his deeper instincts to support the nazis. Mussolini is more likely, but we cannot simply avoid the Nazi connection because of things he said before Goebbels and before Stalin

>>11026650
N disliked the anti-Semites for specific psychological reasons that you’re papering over. And the fascists were not trying to overthrow any order at all, they cooperated with international banking from the beginning all the way to the end, and they had no intention of rolling back british or american finance, only killing jews in finance. your propagandist ideas of what the Nazis actually were do not have any weight

>>11026900
>We have no idea what he would have thought about Hitler
translation: he would like him, but it's too uncomfortable to admit

>but we do know that he disliked Germans, anti-Semites, and Christians, all sharing the same attribute of herd morality.
translation: lets pretend ww1 didnt happen and nazis didnt naturally drift towards nietzscheanism out of disillusion with traditional values

>My philosophy aims at an ordering of rank: not at an individualistic morality. The ideas of the herd should rule in the herd-but not reach out beyond it: the leaders of the herd require a fundamentally different valuation for their own actions, as do the independent, or the "beasts of prey," etc.
t. will to power

>>11026984
why would N have favored a barbarous, volkish movement led by an unimpressive hysteric pseud that went our of its way to attack Jews and Anglo-Americans? I just don’t see how this would promote his own world view in any sense, it was seen by many people in the German aristocracy as a catastrophic turn for Germany that would end in ruin and the persecution of the Jews and mobilization of society was despised by much of the elite. The vicious public and the apathetic sycophants protected the world from knowing this but much of the people placed at the highest levels of government found Hitler intolerable and insane, the whole program reeked of mental illness and overreaching, ressentiment and a decadence. The Nazis were not hard spirits, they were not made cold by the necessity of surpassing themselves, they were romanticist socialists who advocated for beer hall politics on a continental scale and made every single event about the State as the people, their motto.

>>11026984
What makes you think Nietzsche woul like that angry manlet?

>>11025692
>It seems fitting with his philosophy that he would welcome them.
Nope, Montinari completely ruled out the possibility of a nazi nietzsche decades ago.

>>11026984
It is true that Hitler is of a different league than his followers. But that doesn't save him in this case. Hitler wouldn't stand well alone under Nietzschean scrutiny. World War I and World War II were both propelled by forces and concepts and needs not simply dormant but active in the previous century. Remember that the Germany of the 19th century is not from some pre-modern alien universe of "traditional values", it is a thoroughly modern society undergoing an incredible philosophical and cultural process. The results of any number of existing causes will change depending on what events do and do not occur; but the characteristics of Nazism and the Germany that begat and embraced it were not simply the product of the Second World War and inaccesible to Nietzsche's criticism, as the Volkisch movement as well as Elizabeth Forster-Nietzsche and her husband's excursions into Germanic racial colonies prove. The Romantic, Germanised Nordic/Christian syncretism of Wagner is another obvious indication of the cultural state of Germany.

>>11027002
>The Nazis were not hard spirits, they were not made cold by the necessity
brah, they survived ww1. you keep talking about them like they visited the wrong lectures.
i've registered the rest of your posts, but i already wrote too much previously itt and will keep repeating myself at this point

>>11027018
ever read his views on napoleon?

>>11027040
>they survived WW1
no they didn’t, Rosenberg, Goebbels and Himmler never fought in WW1 and the SS was filled with men who were teens and toddlers during the war. There was no hardening of spirits, it was pure world-spite and avaricious desire for glory. Nothing about their campaign was heroic, from the very first it represented a denial of fate and nihilistic obsession with equality of outcomes, for they felt their race deserved to be dominant when it was not already and was not poised to be.

>>11026984
>translation: he would like him, but it's too uncomfortable to admit
That's not at all what that means. We know he loved Napoleon and his militarism and hated the growing effeminacy of his age. We just don't know for certain what his thoughts would have been on the personality of Hitler. My guess, though, is that he would have liked him.

>translation: lets pretend ww1 didnt happen and nazis didnt naturally drift towards nietzscheanism out of disillusion with traditional values
Do you really think that the spirit of the masses can change so quickly and so drastically?

>>11025692
>>It seems fitting with his philosophy that he would welcome them

How so?